-Kanzaki wrote:

Extra :
01:42:895 (1,2) - 01:43:520 (1,2) - These are emphasized just as same do you really believe these should be emphasized as the same and you think these are both strong. I believe second one isn't strong as the first one making that flows breaking as same on both isn't really good. They're slightly different and that's good enough for me.

01:28:415 (1) - the thing you followed with this slider 01:28:624 - is actually also here too, why leave empty Because the voice is a fucking nightmare to time and it's better to leave empty so it's not confusing as hell.

01:50:082 (1,2,3) - I don't know while what i am going to say is subjective, breaking flows this much on this sounds are way too much for me i don't think they are so strong to be like others. Flow doesn't matter here.

00:22:061 (2,3) - 00:15:395 (3,4) - I believe these are similar sounds on the song but the spacing is really different why is that The spacing is like, maybe a dozen pixels different and even the movements are similar....?

00:18:728 (3,4) - I totally don't agree with this spacing this one is calmer than others but spaced this much as same as others not good. Can you even play this difficulty? 1/4 spacing at 144 bpm between circles and sliders is actually extremely easy. I think you played it like once.

00:34:561 (3,4) - This could be high spaced like 00:29:561 (2,3) - and actually 00:34:561 (3,4) - is stronger than this too. The entire point is that the sharp movement is on 2,3. After that, 4 is simply ending the pattern, the spacing being low is irrelevant.

01:29:249 (4,5) - Not strong enough to flow break like this much again. Any suggestions regarding "flow" will be discarded. I intentionally break flow, and if you disagree with how I break flow, just call me a shitty mapper.

00:47:061 (4,5) - 00:50:395 (3,4) - aren't these similar some sort of spacing again different and way too much on first 50:395 has a much harder 1/4 roll after it that is the focus of the pattern. 47:061 focuses on the 1/6th roll and emphasizes that.

I don't know check if you agree or not most of them is subjective but generally this diff's flows are hell for me and does not plays good for me at all. That's just unfortunate then. I don't want to channel hollow wings here but if it plays badly for you, good. Not everyone is capable of playing maps intentionally made to bring challenges other than "1/2 jumps" and that's completely fine.

EvilElvis wrote:

Extra :
00:26:540 (2,3) - no-no this is the right one i guess 00:26:645 (3) - is actually representing the background 1/4 tremble. It plays fine.
Others are just suggestions:
00:31:332 (3,4) - would help keep strong beats clickable Strong beats being clickable is irrelevant. These two sliders are very simple to hit and are meant to be that way. Literally doubling the number of clicks to make sure that the strong beats "get their due" would make the experience completely different.
00:32:165 (2,3) - i'd say I disagree. I'm okay with how the current click patterns are.

There was more but i can't post all of them right now, if there will be a need in continuing this mod poke me via pm or something

Shiirn wrote:

In the interest of saving everyone's time, especially helpful passerby modders, let me say this:

Anything that is not directly unrankable and can be classified as "subjective" or "issues with consistency" will be subsequently denied.

Please don't waste my or your time as I have gone over every inch of this map and while I don't believe it is perfect nor that it reaches my vision of what this map can be, it is viable enough for the purposes of ranking. Anything that can be mentioned regarding consistency is inconsistent for a reason. You may not like the reason, but unless you are a QAT specifically going to DQ the map because you disagree with me, we're going to have to live with said disagreement staining our lives forevermore.

If you're disappointed in me as a mapper or you don't like this map: I don't care. This map started off as a simple happy, vibrant, barely contained explosion of energy, and now it's just a pile of conflicting opinions from people I barely respect, much less like, who forced themselves onto the map as if it were their civic duty to make me "see the light" and "accept consistency".

Shiirn wrote:

Extra :
01:42:895 (1,2) - 01:43:520 (1,2) - These are emphasized just as same do you really believe these should be emphasized as the same and you think these are both strong. I believe second one isn't strong as the first one making that flows breaking as same on both isn't really good. They're slightly different and that's good enough for me.

01:28:415 (1) - the thing you followed with this slider 01:28:624 - is actually also here too, why leave empty Because the voice is a fucking nightmare to time and it's better to leave empty so it's not confusing as hell.

01:50:082 (1,2,3) - I don't know while what i am going to say is subjective, breaking flows this much on this sounds are way too much for me i don't think they are so strong to be like others. Flow doesn't matter here. How flow doesn't matter on anywhere anyway. You are adding a feeling with that flow and it makes player get excited on here. But you say it doesn't matter

00:22:061 (2,3) - 00:15:395 (3,4) - I believe these are similar sounds on the song but the spacing is really different why is that The spacing is like, maybe a dozen pixels different and even the movements are similar....? It is not similar difficulty

00:18:728 (3,4) - I totally don't agree with this spacing this one is calmer than others but spaced this much as same as others not good. Can you even play this difficulty? 1/4 spacing at 144 bpm between circles and sliders is actually extremely easy. I think you played it like once. I am asking you why did you map this same as others while it is calmer in song. You are telling me it is also easy to play like others???

00:34:561 (3,4) - This could be high spaced like 00:29:561 (2,3) - and actually 00:34:561 (3,4) - is stronger than this too. The entire point is that the sharp movement is on 2,3. After that, 4 is simply ending the pattern, the spacing being low is irrelevant.

01:29:249 (4,5) - Not strong enough to flow break like this much again. Any suggestions regarding "flow" will be discarded. I intentionally break flow, and if you disagree with how I break flow, just call me a shitty mapper. Yea i will make screen jumps on calmest parts of the song too.

00:47:061 (4,5) - 00:50:395 (3,4) - aren't these similar some sort of spacing again different and way too much on first 50:395 has a much harder 1/4 roll after it that is the focus of the pattern. 47:061 focuses on the 1/6th roll and emphasizes that.

I don't know check if you agree or not most of them is subjective but generally this diff's flows are hell for me and does not plays good for me at all. That's just unfortunate then. I don't want to channel hollow wings here but if it plays badly for you, good. Not everyone is capable of playing maps intentionally made to bring challenges other than "1/2 jumps" and that's completely fine.

1. 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc.
2. 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) -
3. 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones.
4. 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l
5. 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map.
6. Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >:

1. 00:08:311 (1,2) - 1,0 spacing, but 01:06:645 (1,2) - 1,10 here, seems there is a small error
2. 01:40:811 (1,1,2) - here too

Natsu wrote:

gonna bring my opinions on this as well:

1. 00:26:540 (2,3) - is pretty obvious that your rhythm is following the song in the wrong way, I checked your reply to Elvis mod and still don't make much sense, the 1/4 thing already started before that, following the active beats is what will be more intuitive, actually every suggestion from Elvis is not subjetive o.o, but really objetive talking about correct rhythm ofc. The first click is following the same pattern as the notes before it. The 1/2 after it is following the fairly subtle 1/8 triple starting 00:26:645 - and ending 00:26:749 - and at the end of the slider. Because it'd be incredibly confusing and hard to play such a combination of clicks, it's a simple slider instead.
2. 00:27:895 (1,1,1,1) - spamming combos looks nice? because the stream is pretty much the smae 1/4 the only thing that changes is that is stacked, so the only NC that you need is 00:27:895 (1) - This NC was purely for aesthetic reasons and for further emphasizing what made these four beats different. If it's directly unrankable, go call a QAT.
3. 00:57:999 (1) - 01:01:332 (1,2) - 01:04:665 (1) - 01:07:999 (1) - why are these mapped in different way ? since is the same music at both places, unless your rhythm is inconsistent on purpose, I don't see any other reason to do this. Just make 01:01:332 (1,2) - like the other ones. The second one starts with the DJ scratches, the rest are all the same. Consistency issues like this are intended. You want my reasoning, you've got it. Now you can disagree with it and I'll be the one who's wrong.
4. 01:09:665 - sounds super weird that you are ignoring this loud beat :l Because the wacky slider is clearly following the scry. not every bass beat needs a click. (HEATHENRY, i know.)
5. 01:42:895 (1,2) - Why are you doing the manual stack at this kind of patterns now, when you didn't before for example 00:02:895 (1,2) - , looks inconsistent and not something that we gonna expect from an experienced mapper, specially whe multiple people are telling you to be more consistent with this map. Originally, the "manual stacks" were different because I had a cohesive theme to the map. After the explosion of the kiai. the spacing was more rickety and less perfect because all of the energy of the song has been expended and it's now just falling apart as the song ends.
6. Also there are a bunch of inconsistencies, overall the design is poor made IMO, and there are a bunch of blankets off, I mean if your archive is to make rankable maps then is fine, but I really think you could do alot better than this, specially with tiny stuff like blankets to important stuff as is the rhythm of the song >: name every single blanket and every single aesthetic change that provides no change to direct gameplay and i'll happily fix them if you offer to work with me to re-rank the map. Otherwise, it's clearly not important enough for either of us to get worked over on.

anyways gl with this

shARPII wrote:

Shiirn, can you stop whining here, take a break, go outside, deep breath and come back later.
You're just tilted and it doesn't help anyone here. Don't make me lock this :/

moki wrote:

I liked every version of this mapset, thanks for spending your precious time on mapping this masterpiece.

Okorin wrote:

What i dont understand is why you seem to have little interest in making this map more like your vision of the song again and instead want to rank it as is for the sake of ongaku? I thought you cared more

Loctav wrote:

Sadly, you have to make an agreement with the community, not with the QAT. They won't judge your map anymore. So better put the effort to convince people raising concerns here that this creation is fine as it is or do not try to get it Ranked.

Voli wrote:

After reading all this I'll probably not try to rank a map ever again with these new "'community-driven" checks nobody ever wanted and nobody asked for. Seeing how ranking your map is already a very long and hard process, especially if you are an unknown mapper, the tiny amount of effort it takes for anyone to be able to DQ a map is just outright stupid.

a loli wrote:

Community-driven checks are not wrong, it's that the vocal community that are doing these "checks" have the wrong mindset. Looking at a map through editor is a lot different than actually playing the map, which is the problem with difficult maps; most of the modders can't play the map as it is intended so they base all their claims in the editor.

Voli wrote:

I agree, they are not wrong, but with the current system of ''any complaints are DQ-worthy so we can discuss first, then have fun repeating the cycle again'' it just doesn't feel worth it anymore to try to rank a map. It causes stress, worry and anger more than it has positive sides. If there was a quick way to instantly re-rank a map without having to go through all this bullshit every time, maybe then it would work.

a loli wrote:

All this leads to is a chain of "have-to-do" mods, giving an end result of a map that doesn't in the slightest resemble the original.

maps that come up at the top of my head are tengaku and toumei elegy

Avishay wrote:

I honestly feel like the one at fault for the current state of the beatmap is the community rather than Shiirn, I bet Shiirn wants to make as many people as possible satisfied, but that's not really possible for this one.

It is good that the qualification is even more community-driven right now, but as long as mapping is an abstract subject with so many ways of interpretation, there WILL BE people that dislike a map, be it a pattern, a structure, you can't satisfy everyone, this game is different for everyone, one might like the surprising intensity changes, another one will enjoy the huge jumps, BUT CMON, people can't agree on everything, especially on such a song and unorthodox map.

Shiirn tried his best to change the difficulties in a way that will feel appropriate for most people, but people nag on stuff that were changed due to previous suggestions, in the end it is not just Shirn's map, but just a mixup of opinions that might and might not make it enjoyable for some people.

Please, if you don't want to see this ranked, if you don't like the way it is mapped, or you just simply dislike this thread, LEAVE, if you don't want to see this map appear on your browser, tell me and I'll create a script that hides it, just for you.

Forlornly wrote:

Having said that
Extra
00:59:353 (4,5,6) - requires insane control and velocity change, especially considering the direction the cursor is coming in at from the previous (3) slider. i get that inconsistency is a theme in this map but this part is so much harder than the rest of the map; i think there should be SOME consistency when it comes to patterns and difficulty. ( 00:59:353 (4,5) - were originally in a position closer to THIS, which I feel is much more sensible with the pattern, but it got complaints about "flow" because it's a 4,5 being fairly close together with a large jump to 6 without it being big enough to "feel" like a jump. This is one of those "Fixes" I'm happy to undo and return to its original state - but I don't always remember exactly what I did originally until someone points it out.

01:35:707 (5,1,2,3) - not sure if anybody else had this problem but this is bizarre rhythmic/spacing choice and it's very hard to read. that would be fine, but there's nothing else of the sort in any other part of the map, and again i think there should be SOME consistency in the map This is the end of the entire section and the departure of the vocals, and they follow the vocals in a very off-beat way. This is very bizarre to play, but that's intended. On Discomfort, it plays differently because the song continues the (much easier to follow) repeated click pattern. On extra, it's purely off-beat but also requires little to no movement, so it's a different sort of challenge I guess. not entirely sure what to do to extra because it's such a mess now.
these are the two things that stood out to me the most, everything else is perfect imo

Chyo-Kun wrote:

I will drop my piece of opinion about the Discomfort diff, be it ignored or not by the mapper:

00:12:895 (1,2,3,4) - I get what you're tryng to represent here and it's a good concept, but you can still keep the feeling AND nerf the jump to make it more playable. The big issue with doing any sort of spacing nerf here is that the movements lose context due to all of the notes (except 4) being on previous notes. (1 used to be underneath 00:12:270 (4) - ). The spacing is ridiculous, I totally agree, and it fits what I'm trying to do, but is just a bit crazy big. But I can't shrink it either without completely restructuring the pattern. I'll probably fiddle with this some more one day, but today is not that day.

01:13:311 to 01:25:290 - I love this part, the climax with the bigger spacing feels awesome and fits very well into the song, but 01:26:645 this next part is a little less lively yet you've kept similar spacing and difficulty, which in my opinion should be lowered to go along better with the song Due to how the song is structured, decreasing the spacing of things such as 01:27:061 (3,5,7) - would also necessitate the movement or re-structuring of 01:27:999 (2,4) - , 01:28:728 (4,6) - , 01:29:353 (1,3) - , I think you get the picture. The spacing is, indeed, large, but in a different vein from the burst of the first kiai because the second one alternates very quickly between sliders and circles, rather than the first kiai's nearly PURE circles, so the actual difficulty is lower due to the lower click density. This is one of those "It looks like the spacing is the same in editor" but "actually plays much easier" situations. I really appreciate how you noticed this, though, as it gives me a chance to explain my reasoning as to why I chose to keep such ridiculous-at-a-glance spacing.

These advices are really vague and would require, if applied, a partial re-map of those sections (which I can tell by your other posts aren't willing to do) but even if applied wouldn't "fix" the map from a technical point of view, it's still awkward with all the spacing/flow "issues"

Monstrata wrote:

The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".

Ongaku wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

The problem here is that this map desperately needs moddingv2. Many of the points made in these post-qualified mods have already been addressed multiple times before. I even mentioned a lot of them to Shiirn to hear his reasoning for the 50th time hoping to get him to change some stuff. We fixed quite a few rhythms, but the inherent problem is that with certain maps, this being a great example, there are always going to be patterns people find questionable. It's really draining on the mapper having to explain their reasoning so many times. If there were a way to document and pen down a mapper's reasoning for specific patterns (like moddingv2) we could reach a consensus much more easily because the discussion will ideally move away from these "why did you do this?" questions to "I agree/disagree with your reasoning and why".

Problem with modding v2 is that its gonna have a lot more of people's opinion. Its gonna go back and forth with agreements and disagreements, until they come to a consensus and find the map entirely different, which is against the mapper's will, which is what kind of happened here.

I don't know if its just me and my stupid thinking, I also think that Modding v2 might bring it into a new direction and change things, but will it actually be for the better? If you could, shine some light on me. I'm probably not thinking about Modding v2 correctly.

shARPII wrote:

Ok guys this isn't the place for a thesis about the importance of users in mappers choices.
If you want to run something more serious, create a topic here and discuss freely : 56
I'll start to remove content which aren't mods for this specific map (or helping this map) under this post.

What everyone said about modding v2 wrote:

<stuff>

Monstrata wrote:

Hmm... I wouldn't think of moddingv2 like that. I don't think there's a necessity to change your map in order to appease every member of the community. I was thinking more in the lines of having some way to document one's reasoning for certain patterns and why one is unwilling to change them. It seems a better option than having to explain your reasoning again and again because people aren't reading up on previous mod posts/replies.

Moosqueak wrote:

Just gonna throw it out there that I found both [Comfort] and honestly, especially [Unrankable] very fun. As someone who alternates, it's a joy to play, even though it's incredibly difficult. I really don't think it needed many changes, because nitpicking minor things in a crazy map like that is like trying to use white-out to cover up certain portions of a mural. Why even bother? It's pointless and you're just heavily damaging something which was beautiful on its own. Really, players who lack the ability to alternate or singletap extremely quickly don't have much place commenting on this map, as it's meant for alting, in the same way Everything Went Numb, Scarlet Rose, and Meikaruza are. It's not playable for the majority of the playerbase simply because it's not their playstyle, and on top of that, it's unquestionably the hardest alternating map I've seen hit qualified. Honestly, in my personal opinion, it should be rolled back to an earlier iteration and modding should be redone from there, but I doubt that will happen based on Shiirn's current emotional state regarding the set. Everyone really should stop being a pain in the ass about this. The game is about fun, not about ruining that of everyone else.

Unless that's how you have fun, I guess.

Shiro wrote:

I don't get what's wrong with this. Why was it DQ'd? This is perfectly playable (albeit insanely hard) and it's even well done.

Shiirn wrote:

Ongaku, I renamed Comfort to Discomfort when I readded it. Current Discomfort = Post-DQ Comfort.

Ongaku wrote:

You do know that the set isnt going for rank anymore.
Discomfort was also a troll diff, but as added on since people liked it.

Secretpipe wrote:

guys chill

Shiguma wrote:

Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?

Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?

Mazziv wrote:

they change the slider velocity

Shiguma wrote:

Mazziv wrote:

they change the slider velocity

But it's a spinner

Shiguma wrote:

Curious, how much has Comfort difficulty changed since map's creation?

Also, do these timing points do anything in the difficulty?

Shiirn wrote:

I'm a funny guy.

Shiirn wrote:

I'm not actually that good a mapper.

Kalindraz wrote:

Discomfort

1. First and foremost, the question I have to ask is: Why do you have this difficulty? Your extra is perfectly functional and stresses the upper limits of what difficulty this song can bring. And above all, your extra is good. I don't see the point in having a special overkill difficulty that's basically the extra except with all the knobs turned up.

Shiirn wrote:

People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.

Kynan wrote:

Shiirn wrote:

People will simply take down this map with opinions they've spent ten minutes scrounging off the floor whilst "modding" the map because "DQ for discussion" is the most retarded piece of shit rule I've ever seen. I had literally five motherfucking minutes to formulate a response to Natsu before the disqualification - where the fuck is the sense of "discussion" there? it just seems like people are trying to throw their weight around.

This, especially when it's done by people who can't even play the fucking map. (thanks for the silence shARPII btw).
I don't see what people have against the Confort diff honestly, as Shiro said it's really hard but so well done, just like Tengaku pretty much (actually easier).

1. The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
   
2. We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
   
3. We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.

Natsu wrote:

I can say the same about people who don't have idea about mapping, can you stop posting useless stuff that no one is discussing?
Read this post again: p/5092848 and try to contribute to move things forward instead of make us lost time by useless drama.

1. The diff got added after the disqualify, so why are you complaining the diff is added back!! isn't that what you want?
   
2. We are discussing about the spread between Extra and Comfort, no one is discussing the way the diff is mapped, but the spread.
   
3. We wish to have a smooth process in the requalification, so contribute with something helpfull to the thread, thanks.

Natsu wrote:

Just bring your input about the ¨spread¨, IDC what HW is ranking, I care what is going on in this mapset, and no we are not talking about the star ranting.