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Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,046 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Hm.. i don't know why but.. i'm still not really satisfied with the Map now.
I mean yeah i will qualify it probably and sorry for such a nazi mod of me but i want to be sure everything will be fine.
So here are some last suggestions:

[Bass Kick]
03:27:857 (207857|4,207857|6,207857|2) - This should be definitely only two Notes. It's pretty same like 03:25:034 - and 03:26:446 - .
03:26:622 - should have only two notes. Has only kick here, no clap.
04:28:299 - I think here's a note missing, according to 04:22:652 (262652|4,262652|6) -
04:45:240 (285240|6,285240|4) - This one is somehow strange for me. It's literally same like 04:48:063 - and 04:50:887 - .. Please delete a note here to keep it consistent.

Ok, that's really the last thing.
Sorry not sorry for nazi mod. Hehe.

Call me back
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]

Feerum wrote:

Hm.. i don't know why but.. i'm still not really satisfied with the Map now.
I mean yeah i will qualify it probably and sorry for such a nazi mod of me but i want to be sure everything will be fine.
So here are some last suggestions:

[Bass Kick]
03:27:857 (207857|4,207857|6,207857|2) - This should be definitely only two Notes. It's pretty same like 03:25:034 - and 03:26:446 - .there is one more sound
03:26:622 - should have only two notes. Has only kick here, no clap.
04:28:299 - I think here's a note missing, according to 04:22:652 (262652|4,262652|6) -
04:45:240 (285240|6,285240|4) - This one is somehow strange for me. It's literally same like 04:48:063 - and 04:50:887 - .. Please delete a note here to keep it consistent.
little selfchange
Ok, that's really the last thing.
Sorry not sorry for nazi mod. Hehe.

Call me back
others are fixed
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,046 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Alright, after a Ton of minor fixes and consistency issues.. here we go finally

Qualified
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Grats!
Flask
Beatmap Nominator
3,471 posts
Joined July 2011
Flask
wa! dbgod
Spy
2,557 posts
Joined November 2011
Spy
Is there any BMS ★9dan player coming to teach how to mapping
ggsnipess
128 posts
Joined June 2012
ggsnipess
Is a ☆06dan player coming to teach how to chart properly?
Elementaires
658 posts
Joined January 2013
Elementaires


lol
Jinjin
891 posts
Joined September 2013
Jinjin
Damn I wish the alternating scratch issue gets solved quickly so that I won't have too many problems playing that scratch jack section. Very solid map otherwise, good job ^^
stupud man
156 posts
Joined November 2012
stupud man

iJinjin wrote:

Damn I wish the alternating scratch issue gets solved quickly so that I won't have too many problems playing that scratch jack section. Very solid map otherwise, good job ^^
Fully agreed.

I really like everything about this map, except for one part. I commented on this part earlier, and I'm now going to remove that since I think that comment wasn't well thought out. However, that doesn't change my opinion on the part I commented on.

[Bass Kick]
02:16:034 (136034|0) -
02:20:269 (140269|0) -

I highly recommend that the scratches between and including these two notes be changed to a simple stair pattern, or any other pattern where the sudden change in note spacing is easier for people to read or hit.
For example:
SPOILER


I'm not saying you should use this set of notes in this specific order, but try to find some way to remove that one scratch section, since it seems like many people playing this map have problems playing that section.

I wouldn't mind these scratches at all if doublescratching for this game actually worked. I know you really want to keep these patterns really badly, but until a workaround is found for the doublescratching, I personally don't think this is rankable.

EDIT: One more thing, please please please respond. If you aren't going to change this I'd like to know why. Just because the scratches follow the song doesn't mean it's a good pattern. The pattern I suggested also follows the song, is easier to read, and reflects its difficulty as rated by osu.

PS: I'm going to remove my comment I left earlier, it shouldn't have been posted in the first place. I don't want to start drama as much as the next person here, since right now, this doesn't help.
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
im really really really tired to talk with u again and again.
i wont change that part. the technical problem is not my issue.i have already say it again and again to u in other map
it is unmeaningness to disscuss with u about this.problem
i dont know why u always do this kind of thing in almost every my 8k map
i cant map achieve everyones standard
MeowPaz
499 posts
Joined March 2012
MeowPaz
victor is truly hardwork think about this part.then became this the best.
you cant only use your finger talk about it.or thinking
stupud man
156 posts
Joined November 2012
stupud man

victorica_db wrote:

i wont change that part. the technical problem is not my issue.i have already say it again and again to u in other map
Yes it is, you mapped the poor pattern in the first place. Maybe you meant something else when you said this and it got lost in translation, but if you mean what this part says then, yes it's your issue.

victorica_db wrote:

it is unmeaningness to disscuss with u about this.problem
You're right in a way. There needs to be more discussion than just between me and you. Other people should be giving their input here.

victorica_db wrote:

i dont know why u always do this kind of thing in almost every my 8k map
Because the majority of your maps have the same problem with scratches. I'm just trying to get the point across. Right now we're just at a standoff. Neither one of us is going to change our minds, we can only really listen to whatever QAT has to say about it. If QAT is ok with the scratches, so be it, but seeing as how QAT denied Gekkou Ranbu for the scratches, I wouldn't be surprised if the same situation showed up here.

MeowPaz wrote:

victor is truly hardwork think about this part.then became this the best.
you cant only use your finger talk about it.or thinking
It's not just the mapper's opinion that needs to be going into a ranked map. If a mapper just wanted his map to remain the way it was without listening to any feedback on it, osumania would have much worse maps being ranked. I can't really understand this post well, so hopefully I responded to what you were trying to say.
ggsnipess
128 posts
Joined June 2012
ggsnipess
you want it to go for ranking right? then look through why he said these patterns don't work, you guys just circlejerking like idiots won't change the fact the game is terrible at handling dual scratching, if a high ranker player says they can't enjoy/can't play it properly due to limitations, then actually listen and make changes or say why you don't want to change instead of thinking you can get away with shit.
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
this is the last time.i talk with u.its just waste of time
in my opinion i lovethat part
if it have rc problem,it will be dqed.if it dqed by qats own opinion on my map,i also cant say anything
ok thats all
bye
Sandalphon
1,470 posts
Joined May 2013
Sandalphon

peroperoplayer wrote:

you want it to go for ranking right? then look through why he said these patterns don't work, you guys just circlejerking like idiots won't change the fact the game is terrible at handling dual scratching, if a high ranker player says they can't enjoy/can't play it properly due to limitations, then actually listen and make changes or say why you don't want to change instead of thinking you can get away with shit.
since when the map quality decide by the high rank player
DeletedUser_2024727
DeletedUser_2024727

SanadaYukimura wrote:

since when the map quality decide by the high rank player
map quality is decided generally by players who are able to hit patterns correctly and competently. they know what patterns are good, what patterns are bad, what patterns are fun, what patterns are not fun. I think it would make sense that a player who knows patterns, you know, knows patterns
ggsnipess
128 posts
Joined June 2012
ggsnipess

SanadaYukimura wrote:

since when the map quality decide by the high rank player
since this game actually got a decently sized community that seems to slip by you guys.



*Looks at The Limit Does Not Exist*
ggsnipess
128 posts
Joined June 2012
ggsnipess

Spy wrote:

snip
Think about it like this, the game can't do shit properly, you have to cater to the game to do shit properly, and you are responsible for it, if you can't fulfill it, then don't bother with making it in the first place. Honestly, how hard is it to explain with google translate. Either make the mods, or explain properly why the fuck you even use those patterns in a game that barely supports those patterns.
Last edited by ggsnipess , edited 2 times in total.
Blocko
osu! Alumni
751 posts
Joined February 2014
Blocko
So, judging from the responses this map has been getting, I'd say it's been pretty mixed. Some agree to what the mapper has put on there, some disagree but offer a compromise to the pattern, and some completely disagree.

Let me just say that the whole point of the qualification process is to get some feedback from the community before sending a map off to the ranked section. Any suggestion or feedback while a map is qualified is not to 'attack' the mapper or the map by any means, but rather to find a general agreement from the community as to how a certain section should be mapped.

I'd like to point out that the dual-scratch mechanic does work in mania, but not very well. Depending on your key bindings, you'd have to let go of the first scratch key before pressing the second one. This doesn't allow presses to overlap when it should, similar to how standard mode allows key/mouse presses to overlap. Because of this mechanic not working well, it sparked some controversy as to how the scratch lane should be used in a song.

Also, a bug in a game should not deter a map's rankability, but a push for a fix on that bug is definitely more appropriate.

That being said, I'd say the way the scratch lane is used in this section 02:16:034 - is alright. It's not really brutal as it doesn't have any patterns aside from the jackhammers at the scratch lane. A stair pattern would be more doable, but the jacks are alright as there aren't any patterns that would distract you from that whole pattern or would make you focus on getting around the buggy scratch mechanic, and it also does a neat job on putting emphasis on the vocal.

I'd really like to know why the mapper disagreed to stupud man's mod, but that's besides the point.

Anyway, thread unlocked. Any suggestions pertaining to the map are more than welcome, but any posts that are off-topic or discourteous will not be tolerated. I'll be watching over this thread for a few days, so let's do our best on being civil to the map and amongst each other.
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL
so its a matter of time until peppy *actually* fixes the problem. but what spy said:

Spy wrote:

Is there any BMS ★9dan player coming to teach how to mapping
is brutal and baity. the map itself is pretty decent but any reason which isnt "this is my map" are welcome
Deif
Elite Mapper / osu!catch Paragon
3,565 posts
Joined April 2010
Deif
Cleaned a bit the thread. Try to make useful suggestions while the beatmap is still qualified, or don't bother posting in this thread. Keep your quarrels out of here.
Rumia-
Beatmap Nominator
2,537 posts
Joined July 2012
Rumia-
may you fly
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Rumia- wrote:

may you fly
We can fly
Sandalphon
1,470 posts
Joined May 2013
Sandalphon
surely can
Akasha-
Nomination Assessment Team
4,420 posts
Joined April 2013
Akasha-
Just fly, then.
puxtu
2,926 posts
Joined August 2013
puxtu
yes please fly far away and never comeback again
pocket-Gao
276 posts
Joined August 2013
pocket-Gao

puxtu wrote:

yes please fly far away and never comeback again
You know what it is FLY
Kinomi
1,229 posts
Joined August 2012
Kinomi
in……in……interesting topic.



Hey db, let me laugh for an hour first.
ilikecatsalot
19 posts
Joined July 2014
ilikecatsalot
02:16:034 (136034|0) -
02:20:269 (140269|0)
I feel like the scratch jacks don't play well here because of 8th notes on a key like shift is already weird. another reason is that the notes that are following the "bass" vocal are unpredictable
Why not make it a stair pattern or something like ( 1, 7, 2, 6, 3, 5, 4 )?
Edit: The jacks are able to be done but, another solution to the problem is to have it so the pattern is ( 8, 1, 8, 1) etc
Last edited by ilikecatsalot , edited 1 time in total.
xanibabe
30 posts
Joined June 2012
xanibabe
02:16:034 (136034|0,136299|0,136607|0,136916|0,137210|0,137446|0,137681|0,137916|0) - While I understand the reasoning behind the scratch jacks, I don't think it's playable. It's all on one column so the player will most likely attempt to read this as a jack and expect consistent spacing, however the spacing is not consistent throughout the section. Sure it follows the song, but so would a stair pattern spread across all fingers or a trill or some other pattern that could be much more readable and playable.
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
Okay my opinion is going to be the same whether or not the dual-scratch functionality is good or not. I don't think that having a bunch of scratches at a non-consistent speed is a good idea. You don't see that on really any other maps whether it is 8k or any other keymode. It's like the same as mapping the drums all to one key and making a completely unnecessary jack. In this case it is especially bad because the scratches do not follow a consistent speed, and it makes it really hard to read. There is no reason for it here in my opinion. I would suggest using a stair pattern instead that leads into a scratch hold as the last note, as this would be much easier to read and much more justifiable.
pocket-Gao
276 posts
Joined August 2013
pocket-Gao
人间のくず
Last edited by pocket-Gao , edited 1 time in total.
AncuL
1,114 posts
Joined March 2013
AncuL

pocket-Gao wrote:

cant play 8K = have no right to meme

plz stop
they are giving feedbacks to the mapper. however, the mapper's "friends" kinda "defends" the whole pattern. giving answer to the feedbacks as "you cant play 8k" and something similiar. you might want to take the feedback seriously and answer their question with reasonable answer.

the map is very nice actually. had some fun on it. but my (and everyone else's) is the scratch jacks. i needed to hit it with my middle finger lmao. so sad that the mapper actually doesnt behave that good at feedbacks
DeletedUser_2024727
DeletedUser_2024727
the scratch-jacks are unable to be played due to an inherent issue with the osu!mania engine
you need to fix them
paperlens
505 posts
Joined August 2014
paperlens
你们真是不知疲倦
MeowPaz
499 posts
Joined March 2012
MeowPaz
飞机飞机飞
pocket-Gao
276 posts
Joined August 2013
pocket-Gao
请允许我最后一条reply

I went to ask some highPP player .???? didnt know set this

L M A O
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
几天没看，这么快就5页了。
希望早日修好皿的按键位图把
richardfeder
1,061 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder

xanibabe wrote:

02:16:034 (136034|0,136299|0,136607|0,136916|0,137210|0,137446|0,137681|0,137916|0) - While I understand the reasoning behind the scratch jacks, I don't think it's playable.
It is definitely playable. It is hard but absolutely manageable.

It's all on one column so the player will most likely attempt to read this as a jack and expect consistent spacing, however the spacing is not consistent throughout the section.
It doesn't look like a consistent spacing jack at all, especially with a high scroll speed. A player with good reading skill should notice that easily.

Sure it follows the song, but so would a stair pattern spread across all fingers or a trill or some other pattern that could be much more readable and playable.
I agree and indeed maybe some players prefer a easier/more readable pattern, but it is not mandatory for vitorica to provide such a pattern. He has his own pattern in mind and he likes it, and it is totally reasonable and playable. I don't see the necessity for victorica to make any change.

Gekido- wrote:

Okay my opinion is going to be the same whether or not the dual-scratch functionality is good or not. I don't think that having a bunch of scratches at a non-consistent speed is a good idea.
It is definitely not player-friendly but whether it is a good idea or not is very subjective. Think about jack/LN walls or any other "controversial" pattern in general. There are always people out there against certain patterns that they don't like or they believe improper. In my opinion, the pattern "having a bunch of scratches at a non-consistent speed" is challenging(however, fits the overall difficulty of this chart), but pretty fun at the same time and follows the music well.

You don't see that on really any other maps whether it is 8k or any other keymode.
There are actually plenty of BMS charts that have this patterns I believe.

It's like the same as mapping the drums all to one key and making a completely unnecessary jack. In this case it is especially bad because the scratches do not follow a consistent speed, and it makes it really hard to read. There is no reason for it here in my opinion. I would suggest using a stair pattern instead that leads into a scratch hold as the last note, as this would be much easier to read and much more justifiable.
As I said above, I do believe a stair pattern would be much better, but I also would like to remind all modders/players to respect victorica's opinions. This is after all his map.

Choofers wrote:

the scratch-jacks are unable to be played due to an inherent issue with the osu!mania engine
you need to fix them
Mapper has no responsibility to fix any game issue.
Blocko
osu! Alumni
751 posts
Joined February 2014
Blocko
So, after discussing this map with players and other staff members, I've disqualified this for now until the following issue has been addressed, mainly the scratch jack layering at 02:16:034 -.

I did say the jacks are alright and not really brutal, but judging by the replays this map has, the vast majority of players won't be able to pull this off properly without a proper fix to the dual scratch mechanic. Layering the vocal only at the scratch lane may be justifiable because it's 'technically correct', but playability should also be taken into account since that's one of the most important aspects in ranking a map. Even when the rest of the map is easily playable, if a lot of players aren't able to play through a section properly, that's enough indication that that section plays really awkwardly and the pattern should be changed to something more playable and comfortable to do.

I also did say that a bug in a game should not deter a map's rankability, but it still doesn't change the fact that the scratch jacks don't play very well to a huge majority of the playerbase with or without the buggy mechanic.

Furthermore, the issue with the dual scratch mechanic has been addressed, but there hasn't been a response to this bug since the thread was created 5 months ago: t/392668
There's also this thread that addresses the issue but it's been 2 years since this thread was made: t/210492
I don't think we're gonna be seeing a fix on this real soon considering that we haven't gotten a proper fix to the faulty mechanic, so it'd a lot better to change the pattern at 02:16:034 - to comply with osu!'s current mechanic.

Also, please address the mods given while the map was qualified:
p/5038404 p/5052301 p/5052342 p/5052349
Overall, it's a neat map, but don't just ignore these mods. A response from you is really needed so we can make a compromise to that section.

Good luck, and I hope to see this ranked in the near future.
SYAHME
1,087 posts
Joined January 2014
SYAHME
As soon I click this map, It got dq. :(
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Before anyone says anything, I'll say this: I feel bad for Blocko, he's literally between anvil and a hammer.

I'm also against this decision, but what's been done is done
-nowsmart-
747 posts
Joined September 2012
-nowsmart-
03:35:093 - 03:54:857 - should remove kiai
i can't see what different with 03:12:504 - 03:33:681 - except bbkkbkk sounds.
YatsuKaori
YatsuKaori
The Drama Ended
The Map DQ-ed
Sandalphon
1,470 posts
Joined May 2013
Sandalphon
poor richardfeder, just reply all the mod and then map get DQ
Akasha-
Nomination Assessment Team
4,420 posts
Joined April 2013
Akasha-
Call me when you then to rebubble/requalify then.
Although i really don't want this map get DQ-ed, it's the bug in the game, not created by the map themselfves
Last edited by Akasha- , edited 1 time in total.
Ayachi-
2,261 posts
Joined November 2013
Ayachi-
Lol disqualified
ExPew
Elite Mapper
1,220 posts
Joined January 2011
ExPew
ah okay since jack scratch does not support already i'd like victorica move them to 2nd column jack(lol) :P as long the music/voice still appropriate to make it jack pattern. i know he not going easy to change it and make it graveyard
moni
233 posts
Joined July 2012
moni
just feedback
but mapper must do it

is it really just a feedback
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
,可以 可以
烦的一比
Zan-
1,590 posts
Joined February 2012
Zan-

victorica_db wrote:

,可以 可以
烦的一比
随它去xxx
Akasha-
Nomination Assessment Team
4,420 posts
Joined April 2013
Akasha-
没有变化。
Last edited by Akasha- , edited 1 time in total.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Okay, let me suggest something that will keep the scratching part but also remove the strain from having a 1/4 jack.
You can turn 02:19:740 (139740|0,139828|0,139916|0,140004|0,140093|0,140181|0) - into either a LN that ends on 02:20:181 - to mark sounds currently mapped with a jack, or just start 02:20:269 (140269|0) - at 02:19:740 - .
I did FC the jack 2 out of 3 times that I played it, but meh, it may be for better to change it.

Let me know when you adress those posts, I'm up for requalifying this map
Kinomi
1,229 posts
Joined August 2012
Kinomi
Then just change that pattern, ok it is your choice db, then let it sink, this is, the ridiculous game what always makes me create meme legend limited your mapping, not your map's quality problem. If it is std i can give you a better choice but it is mania so sorry my db.

Best mod will tell you how to change, not say you should change, maybe dq happened when many people say you should change but, I think you should reject all mod till an interesting suggestion appear.
Last edited by Kinomi , edited 2 times in total.
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
i only want to say nice DQ which is impossible for me to do rerank again because i wont change that part. never.although thats as your said that the osu mania itself cant do scratch well


1.it is the part to connect the early Part
2.scratch pattern is the best way to express this part in my opinion
3.it just a normal pattern for 7+1 map
4.it just follow the rc
5.if u cant play this part ok u just cant play this map it is the easy part in this map
6.i think most people cant use double scratch key. so the problem wont exist. and most u all are keyboard player.although there are some jacks here ,no other keys here .u can use all your energy to press. if u can achieve A rank on this map i think it wont be a problem.i find many testers they dont tell me "this part cant play "
i cant understand why dQ my map ? i cant understand the when one people come to said that this part is hard to play and cant play it well ,then a lot of people that i havent seen before come to here to attack me again and agian.
i cant understand the way of how u mapping . i cant understand that u all always want to find something to start drama in all my map
i think 99% of u think my map is shit. i cant deny. i still just study from day to day.
i never use style to express mapping
i just choose the best way in my mind to map a song
if i think the map itself is shit i dont want to let it rank. in fact ,i just consider my BBKKBKK is a "good map" in my mind
.


thats all
just go to play whatever maps that u want play.


for nowsmart . i can set kiai every place if i want to do.
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
啊 我为啥要看英文论文 。。
Feerum
osu! Alumni
2,046 posts
Joined August 2014
Feerum
Hi victorica, sad to see this get's dq'ed but i'm sure we can get it back to the qualify.
Also i would like to say something to your Map and your post because i think you did understand something completely wrong.

victorica_db wrote:

i only want to say nice DQ which is impossible for me to do rerank again because i wont change that part. never.although thats as your said that the osu mania itself cant do scratch well
Yeah it's an game issue, not an issue in your Map. But this issue exist and when too many player complain about it you should consider to change it.

victorica_db wrote:

]1.it is the part to connect the early Part
2.scratch pattern is the best way to express this part in my opinion
3.it just a normal pattern for 7+1 map
4.it just follow the rc
Agree here with you. You did nothing wrong.

victorica_db wrote:

]6.i think most people cant use double scratch key. so the problem wont exist. and most u all are keyboard player.although there are some jacks here ,no other keys here .u can use all your energy to press. if u can achieve A rank on this map i think it wont be a problem.i find many testers they dont tell me "this part cant play "
You can find so many testers for you map as you wont. The most ppl start to play a Map when it get's qualified.

victorica_db wrote:

]i cant understand why dQ my map ? i cant understand the when one people come to said that this part is hard to play and cant play it well ,then a lot of people that i haven't seen before come to here to attack me again and agian. i cant understand the way of how u mapping . i cant understand that u all always want to find something to start drama in all my map
The DQ is because of the Scratch Part. We can really long discuss about this and i think both sides are right. A ingame Bug should not affect the rankability of a Map but you also have to understand that while this Bug exist you should avoid to Map like this. No one said these are bad Pattern (That's why i didn't mention them in my qualify check), they are just not playable while this bug exist, that's all.
Also no one did attack you here as a person or as a Mapper. No one. They just try to help you and give you feedback how you could make it better, how you could keep your style and make it still playable.

victorica_db wrote:

]i think 99% of u think my map is shit. i cant deny. i still just study from day to day.
i never use style to express mapping
i just choose the best way in my mind to map a song
I confess i didn't read the whole thread but i think no one said your map is shit. On the contrary player even like your map.
Look here:

iJinJin wrote:

Very solid map otherwise, good job ^^

stupud man wrote:

I really like everything about this map, except for one part
Where you can read here this Map is shit? No one said this! Don't imagine something that does not exist.
If this Map would be shit i wouldn't qualify it before :P
Please, everyone is only here to help you.

Like you see no one did hate you here. They just want to help, me too
Please consider about Kamikaze's suggestion, it would be really sad when this get's now into the graveyard just because you don't want to change this Part.
Even when you don't like Kamikaze's suggestion, i'm sure we can find something where everyone will be happy and we can move it back to the Qualified state.

Call me whenever you need me here, would be really happy if i can help you!
stupud man
156 posts
Joined November 2012
stupud man

richardfeder wrote:

Gekido- wrote:

Okay my opinion is going to be the same whether or not the dual-scratch functionality is good or not. I don't think that having a bunch of scratches at a non-consistent speed is a good idea.

You don't see that on really any other maps whether it is 8k or any other keymode.
There are actually plenty of BMS charts that have this patterns I believe.
Name one. BMS charts may have scratches in them (the game also supports doublescratching!!!), but not a long stream of inconsistently spaced ones. Thats the issue with this map. Will respond to your other comments when I get home.



@victorica
Yeah, scratches are a great way to represent vocals, sure, but from a playability standpoint its much worse, at least when the scratches have odd and inconsistent spacing between them. Please understand.
DeletedUser_2024727
DeletedUser_2024727

victorica_db wrote:

1.it is the part to connect the early Part
this is called climax theory

2.scratch pattern is the best way to express this part in my opinion
it may be the "best way" to express what's going on musically, and
3.it just a normal pattern for 7+1 map
I know that scratch jacks are a thing in iidx/bms, but

5.if u cant play this part ok u just cant play this map it is the easy part in this map
it's actually not the easier part in the map

6.i think most people cant use double scratch key. so the problem wont exist. and most u all are keyboard player.although there are some jacks here ,no other keys here .u can use all your energy to press. if u can achieve A rank on this map i think it wont be a problem.i find many testers they dont tell me "this part cant play "
there's a difference between achieving an A on a map due to a player's lack of skill, and achieving an A on a map due to an inherent issue with the engine. I have a few maps on o!m that are probably harder than anything you'll ever make, but they are not limited by the engine itself.

i cant understand why dQ my map ?
because you fail to see why the scratch jack section is an objective issue

i cant understand the when one people come to said that this part is hard to play and cant play it well ,then a lot of people that i havent seen before come to here to attack me again and agian.
it's because you're victoria; you have a certain type of arrogance that warrants people starting drama

i cant understand the way of how u mapping . i cant understand that u all always want to find something to start drama in all my map
it's not your maps that cause drama. it's your attitude that causes drama

i think 99% of u think my map is shit. i cant deny. i still just study from day to day.
I'm almost certain that the people who have posted in this thread think that your map has a section that's stupid. we don't think your map is shit lol

i never use style to express mapping
i just choose the best way in my mind to map a song
then I think the best thing for you to do is to not ask for your maps to be ranked.
CWRU-RYU Li
CWRU-RYU Li
FCed scratch part by only using left pinky finger. There are no other notes during that 2:16 period except a series of scratch notes and thus I really dont understand why people complain about it.
DeletedUser_2024727
DeletedUser_2024727

CWRU-RYU Li wrote:

FCed scratch part by only using left pinky finger. There are no other notes during that 2:16 period except a series of scratch notes and thus I really dont understand why people complain about it.
replay pls
MeowPaz
499 posts
Joined March 2012
MeowPaz

victorica_db wrote:

几天没看，这么快就5页了。
希望早日修好皿的按键位图把
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
No one said the map is bad, I think the map is good outside of that one part. And just because people can hit that part, doesn't mean that the part should stay like it is (I hit the part at least half of the time that I played it).
FrenzyLi
258 posts
Joined April 2015
FrenzyLi
My binding for BMS is SDF<sp>JKL plus scratch with A. with alternative binding on H however I'm finally able to FC the part from 02:14:622 - to 02:21:681 - by jacking using index finger on H-key.
CWRU-RYU Li
CWRU-RYU Li

Choofers wrote:

CWRU-RYU Li wrote:

FCed scratch part by only using left pinky finger. There are no other notes during that 2:16 period except a series of scratch notes and thus I really dont understand why people complain about it.
replay pls
Replay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDBB3Kw3 ... e=youtu.be You know I don't like people who don't even play 8k and come to complain about the arrangemts just because they can't play it well.
shionelove
1,522 posts
Joined September 2010
shionelove
IIDXやってる身からすると、議論の種になっているスクラッチがどうこう以前にパターン全体がバラバラで音を詰め込みすぎててすごく叩きにくいけど、誰もそこは指摘しないのね
richardfeder
1,061 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder

stupud man wrote:

Name one.
Charts that have "long streams of inconsistently spaced scratches". I can list more if you want.
★4 Here we go！ (TM edit) (Awesomeman / obj: あーさん)
★7 HE is an Energizer (7keys sarather) (Mr.ABC)　->　after about 800 combos
★14 SAMBISTA -sarambista- (DOT96 / obj.D-BLUE) -> right in the middle

some easier examples:
☆10 niKu (HYPER) (TOMA v.s. DJ Saw-Low) (8th dan #1) -> around 900~1000
☆12 Freja (SP ANOTHER) (rider) (10th dan #2)

stupud man wrote:

BMS charts may have scratches in them (the game also supports doublescratching!!!), but not a long stream of inconsistently spaced ones.
osu!mania also supports doublescratching, but not fully, and we all know that mapper shouldn't be responsible for it. As Loctav said,

Loctav wrote:

A bug in the game engine won't make the map self unrankable, since the map self is not bugged.

I don't even know why this is turned into a problem.

shionelove wrote:

IIDXやってる身からすると、議論の種になっているスクラッチがどうこう以前にパターン全体がバラバラで音を詰め込みすぎててすごく叩きにくいけど、誰もそこは指摘しないのね
叩きにくいけど、できる人はたくさんいますと思います。このパターンが昔からあって、今までも使っていますが、私はどうして今さら彼たちがこのパターンについて文句を言うか全然わかりません。
CWRU-RYU Li
CWRU-RYU Li
If anyone has any suggestion, tell the mapper and don't be like "this is what I think is subtle so u have to change it". Mappers have the right to take advice with grain of salt. Besides, some players who don't know 8k and don't even play 8k should really shut their mouth. This is not a place to pick a quarrel.
stupud man
156 posts
Joined November 2012
stupud man

richardfeder wrote:

-snip-
Honestly yeah you're right. Was acting a bit cocky sorry.

You bring up some really good points that I couldn't really see before (eg. BMS charts having similar if not worse scratch patterns on the insane scale). So is this going to change my opinion on the pattern? Slightly, but no. I'm still going to uphold my opinion about the pattern being underrated and hard to time (for example, when I was scratching the first section, the notes speed up just after the 5th scratch or so so I ended up hitting the majority of the next scratches late, almost missing a couple of i didn't catch myself). That being said, I'm not going to try to shove my opinion down someone's throat (I feel like I may have made an attempt at that today, sorry). I may respond to someone if I feel like what they say has something wrong with it, but that's where I'm trying to make it as far as it goes.

@RYU Li
I understand that the mapper can take my opinion with a grain of salt. However this mapper (from what I can see and had seen in the past) has a history of refusing to take decent advice. I don't know if I (or others) seemed like trying to shove opinions down someone's throat but I know that I was only trying to get my point across in the most civil way possible without being outright ignored or given a lazily thought out response. There are people in this thread that I can definitely name that have absolutely no experience in somewhat difficult 8k games/charts/maps. However, there are others I can name that at least possess the common sense to determine whether or not some ideas/opinions hold their ground. But yeah absolutely anybody with no experience whatsoever shouldn't be here.
CWRU-RYU Li
CWRU-RYU Li

stupud man wrote:

richardfeder wrote:

-snip-
@RYU Li
I understand that the mapper can take my opinion with a grain of salt. However this mapper (from what I can see and had seen in the past) has a history of refusing to take decent advice. I don't know if I (or others) seemed like trying to shove opinions down someone's throat but I know that I was only trying to get my point across in the most civil way possible without being outright ignored or given a lazily thought out response. There are people in this thread that I can definitely name that have absolutely no experience in somewhat difficult 8k games/charts/maps. However, there are others I can name that at least possess the common sense to determine whether or not some ideas/opinions hold their ground. But yeah absolutely anybody with no experience whatsoever shouldn't be here.

First, there is a long "history" of prejudice towards vic's maps. What's more important, mappers are not obligated to appreciate suggestions from others since what others think "decent" might not be "decent" to mappers. Things don't work like "since I gave u what I believe is decent so you mappers should be appreciated for that".
richardfeder
1,061 posts
Joined March 2013
richardfeder

stupud man wrote:

richardfeder wrote:

-snip-
Honestly yeah you're right. Was acting a bit cocky sorry.

You bring up some really good points that I couldn't really see before (eg. BMS charts having similar if not worse scratch patterns on the insane scale). So is this going to change my opinion on the pattern? Slightly, but no. I'm still going to uphold my opinion about the pattern being underrated and hard to time (for example, when I was scratching the first section, the notes speed up just after the 5th scratch or so so I ended up hitting the majority of the next scratches late, almost missing a couple of i didn't catch myself). That being said, I'm not going to try to shove my opinion down someone's throat (I feel like I may have made an attempt at that today, sorry). I may respond to someone if I feel like what they say has something wrong with it, but that's where I'm trying to make it as far as it goes.
Thanks for your reply and I have a couple of points to say responding to not only you but all modders/QAT members.
No one is trying to change your opinion or stop you from stating your points. No. In fact we are glad to see that different people have different approaches and understandings of this song/certain patterns. That's why we have different styles of mapping and diverse patterns and we can all equally enjoy them. The point is that you shouldn't force someone else to follow your interpretation of music/understanding of patterning. As I said again and again, patterning is very subjective and you cannot simply say patterning in one way or another is a "good idea" or "bad idea". What you think as "decent" might seems to be "none sense" for mappers who harbor totally different approach of mapping from yours. In this case, victorica insists on his approach, and his approach is not only technically correct, follows the rhythm closely, but is also playable. And now numbers of people argue for a change just because they don't like it(what even more ridiculous is that they don't like it because they think they cannot hit it properly).
Also many comments show no respect to victorica_db himself. How could he write so much if he never seriously take any advice? He also listed enough reasons to support his patterns and no modder should ignore that: 1) This pattern connect smoothly with previous pattern; 2) Scratch pattern is his approach of expressing that specific part; 3) It's nothing mind-blowing or something completely out of contorl(I also listed some BMS charts utilizing this pattern) and 4) It doesn't violate any RC. This is a very formal and serious respond. If this is not the respond modders/QAT members asking for, then I don't know what should vicotica post anymore.
CWRU-RYU Li
CWRU-RYU Li
I would say what PC has argued should really be rule of thumb for all modders to bear in mind. Once modders or whoever else become overly egoist and force mappers to adopt their ideas, it just becomes a disaster.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Well the disqualification happened mainly because victorica did not answer the mods or posted in a way that made it look like he just shoved those posts aside, as far as I know at least. And like PC said, it's not about forcing your will on someone else, at that point this is just wrong.
But at the same time, while the scratch part is mapped correctly, I feel like if that's a major issue to most players (I can safely S this map, but I have to rush earlier notes to FC that jack to be honest), you could at least try to simplify it a tiny bit for the sake of players.
Also PC's point of there being charts with this type of scratch in BMS: Sure, there may've been times where this is used, but that doesn't make it any better, in fact if something has been done somewhere else and it's not good, we should avoid using it elsewhere.This is not in a context of this map in particular.

Honestly, I think I would be okay if victorica didn't change anything at all (though I would really like his post to be less agressive, oh well), but if you want to make that part more accessible to average 8K player, I'm going to suggest some alternatives of what you can do to make this part more accessible once more:

First of all, my opinion on the scratch part: It's bearable, but you either have to master dual scratch, or rush a bit to give yourself some time. Even then you are likely to break on the following LN if you're not careful.

First suggestion: What I suggested before - You can turn 02:19:740 (139740|0,139828|0,139916|0,140004|0,140093|0,140181|0) - into either a LN that ends on 02:20:181 - to mark sounds currently mapped with a jack. This will remove the need to vibro with your pinky to hit it, while still having to rotate the scratch on controller.
What I mean in an image

Second suggestion: The problem of this part being very hard to nail also lies in the following LN which is really close after the scratch jack which is very hard both for KB and BM players. I think that you could 02:20:269 (140269|0) - into a normal note, to simulate the mapped sound by making it play like a sample on DJ console - click the button and sample plays
What I mean in an image

Do whatever you want with those suggestions, but please, try to requalify it, I don't want to see another 8K map getting graveyarded for something as minor as this.
To PC: Please translate this post to victorica directly, I feel like you can convey what I mean better than if he would use a translator to translate this post.
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
i think i answer the mod..why do u say i didnt answer?
i have seen ur suggestion
both of them is not achieve what i think and i think it is not the best thing to express that part
ill still keep it
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

victorica_db wrote:

i think i answer the mod..why do u say i didnt answer?
Well you did after DQ, apart from answering stupud man's post vaguely, welp.
Anyway, I'll let others decide what to do here, I'm not sure myself
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]

-Kamikaze- wrote:

victorica_db wrote:

i think i answer the mod..why do u say i didnt answer?
Well you did after DQ, apart from answering stupud man's post vaguely, welp.
Anyway, I'll let others decide what to do here, I'm not sure myself
i have said " i wont change that part" ...
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
You misunderstood me, I'm going to just wait and see what happens, I don't really want to be held responsible for any decisions, I'll be back if this gets rebubbled I guess
[Emiria]
1,010 posts
Joined November 2012
Topic Starter
[Emiria]
ok.
paperlens
505 posts
Joined August 2014
paperlens
哇 又是三页
真好玩 我也要参加
Akasha-
Nomination Assessment Team
4,420 posts
Joined April 2013
Akasha-
recheck

04:35:975 - and 04:36:240 - wrong placed snare, move them to 04:36:063 - and 04:36:152 -
01:25:210 (85210|0) - lost cymbal

well, that's all, the patterns was already good, just a little minor thing
i will rebubble them after you fix the hitsound, good luck
Arzenvald
4,062 posts
Joined July 2013
Arzenvald
so uh, rip fun jacks..? :I
BanchoBot
w00t p00t
34,832 posts
Here since the beginning
BanchoBot
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