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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
So what is your issue?
Might be the case that you can get better acc than you usually would but if getting high acc is so easy why wouldn't you just get high acc?
Imo it's fair and square that accuracy has a decent value in a rhythm game and when someone whose strength is accuracy and someone whose strength is holding combo get the same award I find that pretty much legit. Especially since your "drop at every 300 combo" doesn't apply to the initial example you gave.

Also why the hell are you suddenly talking about DT? This was never part of the discussion before. Especially since you seem to be happily abusing this acc-festival.
88% FCs are kind of rare by the way as this acc is so low that it always involves shaky control. I don't see a 2k pp player FC that.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Ehm... you're right, there was no reasson to mention about DT topic... but I guess we can continue about the powerful nomod FC's that are oftenly seen in low pp's players. well I've seen cases of players at 1600 global pp doing a 98 pp rank at rungran with around 400's combo and some 2000-2400 pp friends of mine that has rungran aswell with 89-92% FC accuracy. Rungran is a commonly pp'ed map at 1600-2600 pp players. So yes, I have proofs that players of a wide range can do this map :P

SPOILER
Players profiles that pp'ed dmc rungran
92.24% acc B of 400's combo [1679 pp player]
91.13% acc A FC [2267 pp player]
91.49% acc A FC [2483 pp player]

You have these 3 cases of friends of mine that when they were 1900-2100 pp they made dmc rungran FC with A and one that at 1679 had almost done FC on it. So I would not underrate the power of low pp players that with retries can rank a 550's combo on an extra map that is built mainly on long streams. Long streams map combo are practically shorter in time lenght than a map built of 550 combos out of jumps. The shorter a map is, the more tryhardable is, that is why I know some 2000 pp players can even FC dmc rungran if they tryhard it enough.

A similar case happens with 07th Expansion - rog-unlimitation in which some players at 2800-3300 pp can do aswell a 88-91% FC on there gaining an almost 200 pp rank.

SPOILER
Player profiles that pp'ed rog unlimitation
92.34% A FC [3364 pp player]
90.61% A FC [3165 pp player]

Both of these maps are OD7 wtih high stars from streams with spacing, and both are commonly done by unexpectively low pp players.

So there is another map in which low acc FC is common and grants more than decent pp. Well yes I can't do this second one to be honest, but I see this commonly on people's best performance. Seems that a large group of people have no real problems about doing long streams wtih that spacing with CS3, I'm unsure on what to think about the pp efficiency of that map ... it's nothing easy but it's too commonly seen even on people at below 3000 pp, because the 2 friends of mine did rog unlimitation when they were a bit smaller than 3000 pp.


So ... if its true that 99% acc high OD is the most common way to have best perforamnces, it's commonly seen that some people don't need accuracy at all to make their ranks and if you expect that skill is lineally relationated to accuracy you're wrong. Likely we see DT or nomod maps that we see too often on people's best performance with 99% acc there are a group of low acc FC maps that we can see sometimes aswell and that MANY people have complaints againist these maps aswell, mostly talking about dmc rungran in which some people hates the much pp it gives to themselves.

But yes, this kind of player is not rare, but we have to admit that DT high accuracy players are most common for a group of reassons that some people on this topic have already talked about this.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
But low-acc FCs give a decent award just like you stated with two examples.
Are they underrewarded? I think not.
OD has an exponential scaling but a scaling that just ENDS at some point. So the difference in accuracy has to be huge to make up a huge difference in combo which seems fair for me.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
I would say that they are not underrated on some nomod maps, mostly acesible at OD7 maps with high spaced streams, but they are rarely seen on other kind of maps.

The thing that I do not like is that accuracy is completely independant of map's level. This makes some weird exceptions doing unexpected high pp, more than maps with 1 more whole star at SS. Don Omar ft. Lucenzo - Danza Kuduro [Experto] is a map that with DT has OD9.67 and 4.25 stars ... a very strange case of a map with too low stars but such OD. FOLiACETATE - Heterochromia Iridis [Another] is an difficult another map of 223 bpm streams, anoying reversals and theorical star level of 5.25 stars but OD7.

Well the case is this:

Case a) Don Omar ft. Lucenzo - Danza Kuduro [Experto] +DT
has 4.25 stars, 195 bpm, AR9.67, OD9.67 & CS4, contains 223 circles & 175 sliders

Case b) FOLiACETATE - Heterochromia Iridis [Another]
has 5.25 stars, 223 bpm, AR9, OD7 & CS4, contains 361 circles & 213 sliders

maps pp ranges by tillerino (because too much lag I can't upload images this time)

For case a)
95% = 82 pp
98% = 117 pp
99% = 143 pp
100% = 185 pp

For case b)
95% = 143 pp
98% = 156 pp
99% = 165 pp
100% = 178 pp

Observations:
1.- Meanwhile a) value is "trash" from FC, it's massive OD scaling ends beating b) which is a much harder map overall.
2.- map a) gives as much pp at 99% acc as map b) but with 95% acc.
3.- Elements distribution (again)
a) contains 223 circles & 175 sliders
b) contains 361 circles & 213 sliders

Toughts
Well, map b) is very bitch to FC because anoying reversals, unconfortable positions at some circles and it is even difficult to FC for players over 4500 pp. map a) is just hard to accurate, any player that has enough aim to FC an Hard +DT can do map a) with FC and with retries can gradually rise his accuracy on map a). Result is that a much more wide range of players (even ME! at 4436 pp) can gain pp from this 4.2 stars map. Meanwhile players of even higher rank than mine have real difficulties to FC map b) for a worthless amount of pp.

That's how OD is OVERRATED (more than just "accuracy is op"). I have nothing more to say.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
E m i
E m i

ReynBolt wrote:

Well, map b) is very bitch to FC because anoying reversals, unconfortable positions at some circles and it is even difficult to FC for players over 4500 pp
right, things that pp doesn't take into account. if anything, it makes the map b underrated, not the map a overrated.
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
argggg 138 bpm streams is too hard!!! ... seriusly the more far to 185-225 bpm the harder is it to me!!! (regardless if it's slower or faster than the given range)
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

ReynBolt wrote:

The thing that I do not like is that accuracy is completely independant of map's level.

silmarilen wrote:

acc should be a function of map complexity, not just of map length and od. too bad there dont seem to be any ways to do that.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

ReynBolt wrote:

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
argggg 138 bpm streams is too hard!!! ... seriusly the more far to 185-225 bpm the harder is it to me!!! (regardless if it's slower or faster than the given range)
Please don't act like the bpm is your problem. It's the technical complexity and high OD that keeps you from getting anything close to good acc on it.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

Endaris wrote:

The actual mapdesign and complexity is much more important.
I also thought we weren't talking about DT?

Anyway, enjoy SSing this for massive 286pp:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/290040
> thelewa did 99%

I pass.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
Short: Can the PP algorhythm spot Sliders which are hit too early (100) but still give full points (300) and take that in consideration when PP'ing?



I was wondering about a few things today and wanted to ask following;

- Is the PP calculated with the replay sent to the server or "just the score"?
- In case of replay, does the replay save the Sliderhits in a value which is usable for the PP algorhythm (ex. Slider gave 300, but the initial hit was in the 100 area (xy ms off the actual timing)?

If yes, I was wondering if it'd be able to take "300 Sliders with a hit on 100/50 window" in consideration and adjust the PP with that.

From time to time I see post about Sliders being to easy as theyre a guaranteed 300. ppy wont change this as it's just too big of a deal, it'd change too much in all the (leaderboard-)scores we have now. Can the PP algorhythm spot these faulty 100 Sliders?
Because I think that that'd kinda solve the problem to some extend, as people dont really care about their actual scores, but rather about their PP. That's just my view though.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
Replay data isn't used, no. Just combo, accuracy, and 300s/100s/50s/misses. Even if pp could be calculated based off of replay data for new scores (and that would significantly increase the time required for calculation, which is already pretty long because of the ridiculous number of scores in existence), replay data isn't saved for current scores that aren't top x, so it couldn't be applied retroactively.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo
I see, that kills the idea then. Thanks for the answer
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
I think that was the longest time that this thread hasn't been posted in since it was made.
Yauxo
1,622 posts
Joined June 2011
Yauxo

jesus1412 wrote:

I think that was the longest time that this thread hasn't been posted in since it was made.
I broke it, rip wr
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
dead game
I Give Up
1,648 posts
Joined January 2014
I Give Up
I wish pp scoring was acc based like mania or at least acc based pp and with some combo bonus pp. never gonna happen :{
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

KukiMonster wrote:

I wish pp scoring was acc based like mania or at least acc based pp and with some combo bonus pp. never gonna happen :{
That would be quite retarded, combo > all.
E m i
E m i
miss count plz
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

jesus1412 wrote:

That would be quite retarded, combo > all.
specially for you :')
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Combo -> Acc

When acc/speed pp split?
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

KukiMonster wrote:

I wish pp scoring was acc based like mania or at least acc based pp and with some combo bonus pp. never gonna happen :{
Mania doesn't have an aim component like osu does so combo is irrelevant there.
TheLeviathan
271 posts
Joined December 2014
TheLeviathan
Hello guys,so i might get somehing wrong but... I just finished a map with full combo, map that was weighted 111 pp and in my top ranks list i see that map on my #1 place, and it's weighted 100% (111 pp). But i didn't got 111 pp to my score, i got something like 30 or maybe little bit mor. So what i got wrong about PP system?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

TheLevitian wrote:

Hello guys,so i might get somehing wrong but... I just finished a map with full combo, map that was weighted 111 pp and in my top ranks list i see that map on my #1 place, and it's weighted 100% (111 pp). But i didn't got 111 pp to my score, i got something like 30 or maybe little bit mor. So what i got wrong about PP system?
Weightage system

For transparency on how your final pp is calculated, pp gained from the beatmap is given along with weight (% of eligible pp to be gained for final pp). Only your highest pp score's beatmap gives you full pp. Other scores' pp values will be multiplied with decreasing percentage. The percentage is always rounded to the next whole number for displaying, but for calculations it is not. For example a score can be weighted by 0.48% despite the display saying "0%". If n is the amount of scores giving more pp than a given score, then the score's weight is 0.95^n .
It follows, that your total pp is computed as follows. Let PP contain each score's pp value. PP[i] denotes the ith score's pp value, sorted decreasingly, where i goes from 1 to n, and n is the amount of scores you have.
Total pp = PP[1] * 0.95^0 + PP[2] * 0.95^1 + PP[3] * 0.95^2 + ... + PP[n] * 0.95^(n-1)
Click for an example of the formula usage (scroll down to see the example).
There is also bonus pp based on the number of ranked maps you have a score on. The bonus is:
416.6667 (1- 0.9994^Number_of_scores).
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana
I haven't seen anyone talk about patterns and "reading" pp so I'm gonna make a post real quick about them.
Please remember that I have very little information on the topic of pattern's pp values as I only read like 6 of the last pages and have vague memories of reading the first 30 or so, and they said that pattern recognition is a thing of the distant future...

So after thinking a lot about patterns that are more difficult than others I've come to some conclusions and I'll post them here.
First, overlaps are increasingly hard to read/play as AR and CS get lower
Second, if fast (160+ 1/4 bpm) snapping between 70° and 180° hasn't been given any proper value yet, it deserves some.
Third, jumps Are hardest at 180°, 90° and 0° there should be a small increase in value for each of these, linearly falling to the default value where the halfway points(i.e. 45° and 135°). I guess the value increase should also not be too large, like at max 1,1 times higher aim value for jumps like these
Fourth, Jump sets where combo changes deserve some extra value, as I personally, and most likely a lot of other people too, rely on followpoints when reading jumps. (Granted, maps where combo changes aren't logical shouldn't make it to ranking, thus making this nigh irrelevant on the topic of pp)

Just typing out some of my thoughts on map difficulty values, I'm sure I missed a ton of points I've thought of during my personal performance evaluation system planning.
Kert
2,082 posts
Joined June 2009
Kert

Brimroth wrote:

...
t/331848
jaaakb
2,515 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb

Brimroth wrote:

...
p/3553419 there's been a lot of talk, but nothing done about it

if there was an easy way (easy to find, stuffed to your face) to get all the circle/slider positions and timings for several maps and just write an algorhitm to calculate stuff i think people would experiment with pattern and other difficulty calculation stuff more
death_bestow
6 posts
Joined February 2014
death_bestow
I really hate how I can beat my score and get a lower PP value than the lower score. How and why is this possible, and can it be changed to take your highest pp attempt rather than your highest score?
Granger
835 posts
Joined April 2014
Granger
It can and theres work being done for this; in the future you'll have multiple "ranked" plays for each mod but only your highest PP one contributes to your PP total. (if i remember correctly)
xJFx
2 posts
Joined April 2012
xJFx
my only complain is that I've been correcting some songs that I had in C because I couldnt play them properly at that moment, but it has happened that I get a better rank and accuracy in the song and my global accuracy drops...I dont get it...
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
The accuracy on your profile is weighted by the accuracy of your top plays.
The worse a play is the less influence it has.
Therefore a C without any combo and trash acc has no influence on your weighted accuracy but a B with mediocre acc and high combo does have influence and will therefore lower your weighted accuracy.
julchiar
31 posts
Joined October 2012
julchiar
double time weighting


I believe the reason it gives more pp than it should (difficulty-wise) is because it gives a bonus for higher OD despite not increasing OD at all.

Higher OD decreases the time window in which you need to hit to score a 300. It therefor increases the time window between those 300 hit windows which is where the difficulty/accuracy challenge comes from.
This is not the case for double time. Double time merely decreases the time window required for a 300 but evenly decreases the time window between hits (instead of increasing it).

Double time makes you need to play faster, not more accurate than no-mod at all.
E m i
E m i
Is that also why stream maps are easier to acc than singletap maps?
Is it the reason why the fastest players in the game don't play 175-200bpm HR and 210-240bpm DT maps anymore?
jaaakb
2,515 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb
pp bonus for more time interval between hits (lower bpm, pauses) would be nice, because it's tuff
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

julchiar wrote:

double time weighting


I believe the reason it gives more pp than it should (difficulty-wise) is because it gives a bonus for higher OD despite not increasing OD at all.

Higher OD decreases the time window in which you need to hit to score a 300. It therefor increases the time window between those 300 hit windows which is where the difficulty/accuracy challenge comes from.
This is not the case for double time. Double time merely decreases the time window required for a 300 but evenly decreases the time window between hits (instead of increasing it).

Double time makes you need to play faster, not more accurate than no-mod at all.
To keep the same relative accuracy with DT, you need to have a higher absolute accuracy.
While it's true that relative accuracy is underratednot rated at all (140bpm OD10 is way harder to acc than 180bpm OD10 but they count the same), it's not like DT accuracy is a piece of cake, the absolute increase in accuracy is still there.

The relative vs absolute problem comes up in reading too, with density. DT keeps the relative reading difficulty (density) the same, but the absolute reading diffficulty (same density, higher AR) is higher.
Senko-san
827 posts
Joined November 2012
Senko-san
More of a question than feedback, but regardless.

Does Hidden mod by itself affect the PP gained from the map or does it only increase score? Asking Tillerino while playing with both nomod and hidden seem to result in it guessing the same PP
Gigo
266 posts
Joined March 2013
Gigo
Of course it affects pp, even if it's by a small amount.
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil
Hidden gives a fixed amount to the aim value and accuracy bonus of a score. If I'm not mistaken it's an 18% boost to aim and a 2% boost to accuracy, so it's best used in jump/small circle maps with high OD.
WeabooTrash
4 posts
Joined August 2013
WeabooTrash
I feel alive
Noodle Knocker
2 posts
Joined December 2013
Noodle Knocker
The lack of PP you get for doing a HD play. I think a couple years back HD was actually rewarding and now it's not. Basically you have no incentive to learn HD anymore because the lack of performance points you get.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
The way things are currently, HD is very rewarding if you learn to play it well and likely to be harmful if you don't play it well and just use it on random plays. It gives a 20% boost to aim pp, which can be huge, and a 2% (I think) boost to accuracy pp, which is basically nothing. If you can use it on aim-heavy maps without dropping accuracy for it, it's very rewarding. However, if you use it on less aim-heavy maps with high OD and lose accuracy for it, you very well might find yourself losing pp for using it. And don't even try to play hard-to-read, easy-to-aim maps with HD. Not worth. There are fewer of those after the recent HD change though.

It basically suffers from the same issue as flashlight. Making it feel rewarding for individual maps would make it insanely OP overall. It's a bigger issue for flashlight because being able to play HD on most maps isn't a problem for most people who try to learn it (everyone except me b/c i suck at reading). The system could definitely be better, but I don't know how tom would make this particular aspect of the system smoother within the current framework.
ZenithPhantasm
ZenithPhantasm
Why use pp when you can use percentiles?
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Why use pp when you can use percentiles?
Why use anything? The pp algorithm is primarily rewarding aim and people use devices like touch screens where aim doesn't matter in the slightest. So eventually, people get rewarded for the slickest aiming skills they don't have.

Suggestions:
1. Remove the aim component from the algorithm completely
or
2. Delete or unrank touch screen scores or at least don't give pp for respective plays.
or
3. Remove pp from the game if you really believe touch screen is a legit playstyle

If you consider no.2 but really argue with the complexity of the algorithm becomming too demanding for the servers then make clear using touch screens is a punishable offense like using aim hacks and ban the cheaters. Simple but effective.

The whole concept is broken and doesn't work with touch screen scores being submitted.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
T R I G G E R E D
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake

Infevo wrote:

ZenithPhantasm wrote:

Why use pp when you can use percentiles?
Why use anything? The pp algorithm is primarily rewarding aim and people use devices like touch screens where aim doesn't matter in the slightest. So eventually, people get rewarded for the slickest aiming skills they don't have.

Suggestions:
1. Remove the aim component from the algorithm completely
or
2. Delete or unrank touch screen scores or at least don't give pp for respective plays.
or
3. Remove pp from the game if you really believe touch screen is a legit playstyle

If you consider no.2 but really argue with the complexity of the algorithm becomming too demanding for the servers then make clear using touch screens is a punishable offense like using aim hacks and ban the cheaters. Simple but effective.

The whole concept is broken and doesn't work with touch screen scores being submitted.
Sure it has the potential to be broken but as of right now not a single top player uses touchscreen. Not sure if your puppy choked on a touchscreen or something but honestly it's not a big issue until it actually causes any problems.

on topic: Is there really no way to calculate angles in maps? I feel like the aim component would be complete with a correctly added weighting for awkward angles
Infevo
463 posts
Joined October 2014
Infevo

uberpancake wrote:

but honestly it's not a big issue until it actually causes any problems.
^^

Maybe it's just me but I'd like to think of it as a problem when a 25k rank player craps out a <100 rank score with 400pp+ and gains 6k rank for a 80% acc play in the process. And considering >50% of the rewarded pp being aim based and touch doesn't require any aim skill whatsoever it is dazzling to see people play it down and claim it was just another legit playstyle.

I really should start caring less... facing an absolute absence of reason and logic here on the forums makes my brain bleed.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
I agree that touch screen has no place in this game. It's such an inherently different way to play the game that it's essentially a different game alltogether. Every single other playstyle is about moving your cursor on your screen by using some peripheral. With a touch screen you just touch the screen (as the name already suggests), you don't move a cursor. You can easily use 4 (or more) fingers, removing the aim aspect of the game completely. Exgon's kanojo score is the perfect example of this. Those jumps are pretty much impossible for any normal player, yet with a touch screen he can just put 4 fingers over the positions and press them in the right order, essentially trivializing what would otherwise have been the most impressive fc in the game so far. You can argue that tag4 maps don't give pp so it doesn't matter, but the same thing happens in highscore (and other maps) but in a less severe way. He may be a good player, but he's definitely not good enough to fc one of the hardest jumpmaps that is currently ranked without cheezing his way through the jumps with a touch screen.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
one possible last resort fix that would work for certain is invalidate plays that have any cursor teleportation. this would hurt tablet players too but might be for the best if touchscreen becomes mainstream.
jaaakb
2,515 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb
aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

jaaakb wrote:

aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
Not even close. First of all, with a tablet you're not directly aiming on the screen (unless you're using a tablet pc, which is probably even less common than touch screen). Second, you still need to hold and move something. You can only use up to 2 pens properly because you only have 2 hands (and how many people are ambidextrous enough to do that?), and then i don't even know if that works. And if it does, it's sure going to be hard as hell coordinating 2 pens without looking at them directly.
ColdTooth
1,107 posts
Joined June 2012
ColdTooth
holy moly that's a lot of salt, calm down people

silmarilen wrote:

jaaakb wrote:

aren't tablets pretty much touchscreens but you need to touch with a pen
Not even close. First of all, with a tablet you're not directly aiming on the screen (unless you're using a tablet pc, which is probably even less common than touch screen). Second, you still need to hold and move something. You can only use up to 2 pens properly because you only have 2 hands (and how many people are ambidextrous enough to do that?), and then i don't even know if that works. And if it does, it's sure going to be hard as hell coordinating 2 pens without looking at them directly.
i was gunna ask this question, but sometimes i think my tablet is another computer that you can adjust the size of the area

i guess people have different thoughts, but generally you are right
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Touchscreen plays do look broken on jump maps but I don't think they're that bad, mainly considering that it seems like a pain to read (fast) stuff with your hands in front of the screen, most maps have streams and fast streams also seem like they'd require skill to do on a touchscreen consistently, and on top of that maps with crazy slider magic might also be a problem for touchscreen players. Yeah, it looks stupidly easy on maps like Kanojo and Helix but I don't think they're as broken as people think they are. That said, they do trivialize jumps, and using a touchscreen is pretty much the only way to legally trivialize any aspect of osu! gameplay right now. That in itself is good enough an argument against it.

On another note, have any solutions or reasonable suggestions been provided yet for sliders being underweighted? I was working on a very slider-heavy Extreme earlier, and even though it plays like a 5.5 star it was only rated 4.72 stars. The star rating actually started going closer to 5 once I started mapping the calm section which had more circles in it. I mean, slider angles aside, it seems wrong to me that a legitimately difficult map with big jumps gives far less pp/gets rated far lower than some map with moderate sized jumps that simply has more circles.

Which reminds me, somehow World's End DT (happy's version) is rated lower than Toumei Elegy's hardest diff. I can't imagine a player who can FC World's End DT that wouldn't be able to FC Toumei Elegy unless their speed is way way above their aim. But that seems rather unreasonable to me, considering the hardest parts on Toumei for me are the streams. I guess Jesse's point about fast streams with low spacing being underrated still hasn't been addressed.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
they do need a massive buff, but it's hard to do that with the nature of acc pp. assuming very fast streams get the buff, plays that have abysmally low acc, like mouse buttons enabled + hitting both keys at once low yet didn't break combo because they were easy to aim will be heavily overrated even after losing all acc pp.

with a huge buff, plays that achieve high accuracy (relative to the bpm of course, even 90% can be high in some cases), will be rewarded appropriately. If there were some way to make it so that if the difficulty of a map comes from low spacing high bpm streams, that having non-existent acc like 60% or something that shows they didnt even really play the map does more than just forego all acc pp, it reduces the overall pp of the score by a lot. Of course, being able to hold a ridiculously low acc combo on a map with ultra high bpm streams due to double tapping or some other mash tech is not possible on every map that falls under the category, but this contingency shouldn't really hurt any of them.

Acc curves should also be rescaled for these maps, because the whole 98%-100% mega curve is utterly pointless on something with 285 bpm streams or whatever. However i'm not sure what would be a fair place to start the curves, maybe tom should get all the top speed players together to discuss it. Note im not saying acc bonus should cap out, it will still increase up to 100% as always, I'm just proposing that it starts ramping up sooner than 98-99% since on a lot of these maps these accuracies are simply not possible yet. If it's done right as speed players improve even more and get higher acc the reward will be appropriate and allow the maps to stay relevant and keep up with typical farm maps.

i dont know, i just want the relatively few players who put themselves through more physical strain than any standard hr/dt farmer to achieve stamina at high speeds to get what they deserve, but it's so hard to think of solutions that don't involve splitting up aim/acc/speed entirely.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Tess wrote:

I guess Jesse's point about fast streams with low spacing being underrated still hasn't been addressed.
That was mostly talking about 270+ bpm tho. World's end doesn't reach that.

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

that having non-existent acc like 60% or something that shows they didnt even really play the map does more than just forego all acc pp, it reduces the overall pp of the score by a lot.
I do believe that extremely low accuracy already lowers your total pp beyond what you could lose from just having bad acc, at least tp did. It was not a lot (like 10% or something? random number i pulled out of my ass) but it did certainly happen.
Scarlet Evans
345 posts
Joined August 2014
Scarlet Evans
On Wiki page, accuracy is said to make up for just a small margin of the "Speed" and "Aim" PP score sections, but is this really true?

How would you define the "small margin"?
Maybe 0%-5%? Or 0%-10%? In pharmacology, sometimes even 0.1% chance for medicine to poison people can be unacceptable. However, in osu!, this "small margin" can be much, much higher than 5% or 10%, comprising quite a big part of "Speed" and "Aim" score sections.

I don't want to give exact examples and numbers, but how big this {small margin} is? Should it be really called the {small margin}?

I understand that it can help in preventing people from farming PP from a long "lucky streams" on parts of very hard maps, but they would still need to deal with misses, which can wreck your overall score pretty badly.
It's just that small margin sounds as it really is small margin, while it doesn't necessarily need to be. Maybe we could get some more explanation on this matter, or the formula's sketch could be just more precise in wording? Even if something can be near negligible on high accuracy, it can be a major thing at lower ones.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Scarlet Evans wrote:

On Wiki page, accuracy is said to make up for just a small margin of the "Speed" and "Aim" PP score sections, but is this really true?

How would you define the "small margin"?
Maybe 0%-5%? Or 0%-10%? In pharmacology, sometimes even 0.1% chance for medicine to poison people can be unacceptable. However, in osu!, this "small margin" can be much, much higher than 5% or 10%, comprising quite a big part of "Speed" and "Aim" score sections.

I don't want to give exact examples and numbers, but how big this {small margin} is? Should it be really called the {small margin}?

I understand that it can help in preventing people from farming PP from a long "lucky streams" on parts of very hard maps, but they would still need to deal with misses, which can wreck your overall score pretty badly.
It's just that small margin sounds as it really is small margin, while it doesn't necessarily need to be. Maybe we could get some more explanation on this matter, or the formula's sketch could be just more precise in wording? Even if something can be near negligible on high accuracy, it can be a major thing at lower ones.
If those parameters haven't changed since TP, the accuracy percentage determines a factor in the Speed and Aim values.
Accuracy Factor = 0.5 + (Acc%)/200%
So a 100% accuracy play has a factor of 100%, a 80% accuracy play has a factor of 90% (if there are no misses)
Reyvateil
146 posts
Joined June 2013
Reyvateil

xxjesus1412fanx wrote:

snip
Not as easy as you're thinking, pressing K1 locks M1, so you must have a godlike technique to mash keyboard and mouse/tablet at the same time without having this issue.
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
By now I reached the point where I would prefer ppv1 above ppv2.

ppv2 has an extreme influence on how osu! is received and played by new players(kind of including myself).
With some delay it also spread into maps so that we can "enjoy" some ridiculously stupid maps for tons of pp and close to 0 original value.

I'm sure Tom and peppy had the best intentions but the influence of pp on the development of the game looks very negative for me.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
I think you're projecting your percievement of enjoyment onto others
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Has nothing to do with my perceivement of enjoyment. Whether it is the enjoyment to climb ranks or get good scores on harder and harder maps, ppv2 is not a necessity to enjoy either of these and it would work with ppv1 just as well.
There's no doubt that ppv2 has a severe influence on how the community and its content develops. That's what I dislike about it, not ppv2 itself.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
But what's wrong with that? Why should people have to create content in some way that you won't that may not may not be for a specific purpose? In my opinion people can be free to create what they want for whatever reason. If someone makes a pp map, fine. If someone makes a map that doesn't give pp but is fun, fine.

If a map is only played for pp then abandoned, so what? If someone really actually likes a map, they'll play it regardless of pp or whatever and play it fairly often. And that doesn't need to be every or even the majority of maps.

There's also some opinion that maps that give pp are somehow inferior just because of this aspect, but I think that that's the complainers not able to divorce the actual map from the idea of pp.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
perceivement
It's perception, dammit
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

GhostFrog wrote:

perceivement
It's perception, dammit
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

perceivement
It's perception, dammit
I'm sorry. I'll try to do better next time.

@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Higer pp score despite map score (which is ppv1 thing) still isn't calculated into top rank. Just saying.
At this moment i could say we have ppv1 mixed with ppv2.

Loosing ~20pp on a map becouse 97,1% acc have like 100k more score than 98,8% acc is heavy anti-fun and demotivating to play more.
Curdi
5 posts
Joined April 2012
Curdi
I lost PP and rank after I improved my combo + acc on a map. Peppy pls
E m i
E m i

Curdi wrote:

I lost PP and rank after I improved my combo + acc on a map. Peppy pls
higher miss count?
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
Hozume
6 posts
Joined February 2016
Hozume
oh nice
Florrow
126 posts
Joined September 2015
Florrow
Just as skillful as it should be.
PP gain is based on accuracy, combo, and diff, but also on your ranking.
great job :^)
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

ReynBolt wrote:

Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
nonexistent acc
Alea
2,303 posts
Joined May 2015
Alea
I had a song with no full combo complete but with high acc , then I did it with full combo but with a little bit less of accuracy than before, and I lost pp and ranks ..

I'm done .. why ?
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Combo has a linear scaling with pp but acc scales exponentially. Just look at Tillerino's pp-graphs on reddit.
Vj-Agung
45 posts
Joined January 2015
Vj-Agung
What happened? whether the performance pp has been obtained may be reduced by the osu? I experienced it, pp perfomance i somehow reduced because of what?? :( :( :( :( :? :? :?:
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Probably because you set a higher-score lower-pp score on a map you already had a score on
jaaakb
2,515 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb
combo should have a scaling based on map difficulty spread of the map on a combo axis.

you can calculate what combo is required to guarantee a guy fcd a hard part in a map for sure.

calculate the easiest part he could have fcd for 10, 20, 30, 40, --- , 100% combo, make the combo pp scale based on that

this would only result in profit, unless you look at replay data for the specific points at which combo was lost.


so this would make getting 75% combo on a map with the hard part in the middle worht more than 75% combo in a map with the hard part in the end. makes sense. it was suggested earlier but i just wrote it again
-Zayto
15 posts
Joined June 2014
-Zayto
DT is over rated
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

-Zayto wrote:

DT is over rated
No.

OD 9.75 is difficult so no, it's not.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

-Zayto wrote:

DT is over rated
Judging from your level of play of DT being Suklapallit or lower, I'd say yes.
dGeist
113 posts
Joined October 2015
dGeist
Just wonderin why do some of my scores have a star next to them?
DeathHydra
652 posts
Joined November 2015
DeathHydra

dGeist wrote:

Just wonderin why do some of my scores have a star next to them?
Because your score is top 500 on that map. People can download your replay of that map just by clicking the star
mrburns123
1 post
Joined July 2015
mrburns123
I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake

mrburns123 wrote:

I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
The fix for this is underway.
E m i
E m i

uberpancake wrote:

mrburns123 wrote:

I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
The fix for this is underway.
For years.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
osu!next will never come out
[ -Neon- ]
27 posts
Joined February 2013
[ -Neon- ]
@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.
you are overthinking this way too hard, people will always come up with new ideas to make new sorts of maps and everyone maps in his own way.
there will always be pp maps because some maps are just easier to fc with high diff (in terms of pp system) then others, but nonetheless people will keep making bad ass maps in the future
Dianthus
162 posts
Joined November 2013
Dianthus
Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.
bunnyluvr3000
10 posts
Joined November 2014
bunnyluvr3000
I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q
Dianthus
162 posts
Joined November 2013
Dianthus

bunnyluvr3000 wrote:

I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q
Well yeah, I'm pretty much the same. All I want is to stay in country #50, anything else is just a bonus. I just thought that the high level players would find that a nice change, since it's actually there where it would matter.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.
That's a long wall of text for asking acc to be determined by unstable rate instead of accuracy %. It's been suggested/asked before, and i believe UR isn't saved anywhere (that's why you have to rewatch a replay to check it) so it can't be used right now.
Ashens
16 posts
Joined July 2015
Ashens
Sorry if this is not really related to Performance Points but I will submit it anyway... I was looking on https://web.archive.org at old osu! sites out of pure curiosity, I selected the earliest date I could find, which was 11th October 2008, and I obviously saw the site had changed a massive amount. Although once looking through the site in its entirety I realized there was no sort of ranking system or PP system as a matter of fact. I continued to a random date, 13th September 2008, and looked at the player ranking. I saw the usual people like Saturos, tobebuta and Cyclone e.t.c But one thing I realized straight away is there are tiny red or green arrow's and a number next to a players name, surely indicating whether they have gone down or up in ranks recently. Go too https://web.archive.org/web/20080913014 ... yerranking for the example I am looking at here.

Conclusion
I would really think it would be a good idea too reintroduce those rank down/upscale arrows and the amount of ranks they have down/up-scaled because it might not seem like it but It really does interest people like me who wants an easy way too view a players progress (without going on to https://web.archive.org and doing it manually)

Thanks ^_^ xxx
snyviper
94 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper
Quick overral suggestions here...

Increase PP gained with Lower AR +HD.
Drastically increase AR 9,8+ PP on easier beatmaps when player gets lower accuracy (being able to FC HR at that level is impressive).
Decrease PP gained by lower BPM DT beatmaps, increase PP gained by higher BPM DT beatmaps.
Either Increase PP gained with flashlight, or decrease its score multiplier (I dislike the fact that there are a lot of #1 players with lower PP gained from that beatmap).
Drastically increase DT score multiplier, to something like x2,5 (I did a few calculations about PP gained for that), increase HR score multiplier to x1,2, increase HT multiplier to x0,45, increase EZ multiplier to x0,65, and increase NF multiplier to x0,7 to match PP gained (Except for NF).

(I'm aware of Score v2 current multipliers)
Tifa
13 posts
Joined July 2016
Tifa
everything is fine :D
Tiggy
19 posts
Joined February 2016
Tiggy
Very Nice!
Illustrious
29 posts
Joined April 2016
Illustrious
The ppv2 system works fine, but in my opinion in some sense it doesn't cooperate with current score system very well.

The thing is: on a same map, a play with much higher pp is highly possible to be blocked by a play with lower pp because of the score if the higher pp play isn't a fc one.

For example, Totori (aka rustbell)'s score on Remote Control [Max Control] HDDT: 608pp, 1563/1774 combo, 54,566,762 score.
Meanwhile, another friend of mine has a score like this: Remote Control [Max Control] No mod: 285pp, 1774/1774 combo(fc), 61,293,280 score (MUCH higher than Totori's score, but significantly less pp).
Which means, if Totori fced that map in no mod or even in just hd somet ime earlier, his brilliant HDDT score NEVER has a chance to be uploaded and added to his pp. In other words, a 280pp performance blocks a 600+pp performance. That totally doesn't make sense to me (and I believe to many others as well).

My recommendation will be, either modify current score (or pp) system to make sure that a play with higher pp can always beat another play with lower pp, or make we players be able to alter our own plays on bp list so that the rising players don't have to worry that their possible 2mod/3mod plays that worth 500+/600+ pps will be blocked by current 100/200 pp no mod fcs.

I know that I'm not the first one who come up with this opinion, but up to now I haven't seen much progress on this (or there actually is, in that case it'll be my bad XD). Right before I send this post, some tell me that "Just get used to it, it's common." But common doesn't mean reasonable. I love this game, and since it's becoming more and more confusing to me and some of my friends, I feel that I need to bring this topic to light again. I will be extremely happy if the update is on the way :)
Hexiz
3 posts
Joined December 2016
Hexiz
The harder the mods , the more pp it gives. thats how i see it
Lugli
3 posts
Joined July 2016
Lugli
Well, maybe someone already asked this, so, sorry but i will re-ask it.


Why, when i score a 98% acc in a 3,5/4,3 song, im not earning any pp? and, the "weight" i recieve is of 1% when i strike those scores in MY FIRST TRY.

Here is a ss

https://gyazo.com/ddbbe7d0d09affcd4926f1fec0bb6994

Thanks for reading, i want to know why im not weigthing normal. Cause, for example, "Tranquility "In my room" <- that one is a 3,7 stars difficulty and i weigthed it in a 100%, i dont really understand the system :l
snyviper
94 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Lugli wrote:

... i dont really understand the system :l
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points check "Weightage system".
Soar
284 posts
Joined March 2010
Soar
I was thinking about why old map is not high pp enough, and I concluded that's because it doesn't apply changing the shape

For example


linear shape is easier than


bending shape

(Ignore the difficulty from distance between the circle, I can't find the different shape with same distance)



It also can make slider hard with adding tick
For example


linear slider is easier than


bending shape

I wonder does pp already apply this concept
Haxwill
175 posts
Joined March 2016
Haxwill
I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher
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