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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (osu!mania)

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Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

peppy wrote:

The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.
No matter how difficulty calculation is done, it will never function well on a ranking system where different key modes share the same ranking. Each key mode is a completely different game which requires different skills, and players are not exclusively better or worse than each other in a global "mania" way.

i.e. If I play with a similar level 4K player (being a 7K player myself), he will consistently beat me on all 4K maps we play, but if we play 7K I will consistently beat him on all maps we play. Neither of us is better or worse at "mania"; (note that I'm only mentioning 4K and 7K as those are the two most popular modes in o!m) he is better at physical precision with fast notes as well as vertical reading which are the main skills in lower key mode whereas I'm better at reading density and wide notes which are prevalent only in a higher key mode. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is either better or worse will be completely random based on arbitrary parameters and won't really reflect anything.

No matter how it's done, each key mode is a different game that requires different skills. From a programmers point of view all of those mania key modes might seem very similar and you might assume there's only a small difference between them, but from a player's point of view the difference can be as big as being twice better in one key mode than another person but twice worse than him in another. The ranking will never be able to reflect this with a shared board for all.

Again it's important to stress, this is not a minor difference, this is as big as me being unable to pass a 4K map and barely getting 70% with nofail on it while a 4K player gets 95% S rank on it, whereas me being able to get 95% on a 7K map that the same 4K player can't pass at all and barely gets a D on. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is worse than the other at "mania" is a slap in the face considering the completely different skills involved.

If it's not possible to give a separate ranking per key mode, giving at least a separate 4K and All-K board will solve A LOT of problems as the vast majority (over 99%) of players either play exclusively 4K or all key modes available. This would solve a ton of ranking issues instantly that are otherwise not solvable at all and can only be subjectively addressed in a way that will either be unfair for 4K players or for higher-key players.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?
Last edited by Xenlon , edited 2 times in total.
Taronia
2 posts
Joined November 2012
Taronia

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
People thinking 4k is always easier than higher key amounts *sigh*
iydras
4 posts
Joined June 2013
iydras
each key has their own difficulty and 4k is not easier than 7k
i personally think that 7k is easier compare to 4k although i started playing mania with 4k
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Xenlon wrote:

I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?
His 770.000 points with 4K are a lot better than your 815.000 points with 7K. Why you might ask? Because 4K gives a big score penalty! Relative to the maximum possible score he could have gotten he did a LOT better than you. Despite the 4K map being rated quite a bit easier than the 7K version (I checked!) his better play by a huge margin made up for that and earned him more pp.
Xenlon
25 posts
Joined January 2013
Xenlon
Ok,I played this map again but with 4k and got 765.000 points.
I personally think the 7k version is harder then the 4k,but thats not the point.
The first time I got 815.000 points and thats more then 765.000,so the first try is my Top Score.
Does this mean that I have to play some maps with 4k and 99% ,when I could pass them with 7k and 95-96%,just for the Top Score?
I think the same 7k converted map is always easier in 4k then in 7k ,but I want to play with 7k,because 4k isn't challenging me enough.
(This is my opinion,because I never saw a converted map that is easier in 7k then in 4k)
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Taronia wrote:

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.
Actually I disagree with this after rethinking it number of times, but anyway the problem is that AC's give too much pp and should we wieghted less, all slow streams maps like this or this are giving so much pp, that they tend to overtake good scores on hard mania charts
Sonrilol
9 posts
Joined October 2013
Sonrilol
I consider myself a mostly 7k player, however most of my pp comes from 4k maps. I find it way easier to rank up playing 4k than 7k. I also don't get why hard maps with ~85% give nothing but easy maps with ~95% give 10 pp.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
My Gigantic OTN Ento's Another clear gib 0 pp ;_;

#shittyaccandscore

Anyways, yeah the algorithm is considering sone patterns to be hard in ACs.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Xenlon wrote:

Ok,I played this map again but with 4k and got 765.000 points.
I personally think the 7k version is harder then the 4k,but thats not the point.
The first time I got 815.000 points and thats more then 765.000,so the first try is my Top Score.
Does this mean that I have to play some maps with 4k and 99% ,when I could pass them with 7k and 95-96%,just for the Top Score?
I think the same 7k converted map is always easier in 4k then in 7k ,but I want to play with 7k,because 4k isn't challenging me enough.
(This is my opinion,because I never saw a converted map that is easier in 7k then in 4k)
Judging from this and the mostly similar opinions I'll have adjust the difficulty algorithm, so it can give more sensible values for 4K vs 7K maps. It should be noted, though, that the 7K version already _IS_ considered harder. Just not by enough to outweight the score differences you had relative to the maximum possible scores.
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
My thoughts as a noob mania player:
4k is overrated at the low level, but underrated for high tier maps.
After accumulating over 1.5k plays of 7k, I tried out 4k for maybe ~150 plays. Now I have 18 4k maps in my top 20 performances (and more beyond that, but I'm too lazy to count). I mean, I probably have an advantage with 4k-type modes due to my taiko experience, but I really don't think it should outscale my 7k performances that easily.
The point is, all of the 4k maps I played are extremely easy to read with simple patterns - yet they are rated as harder than much more complex 7k maps with a similar overall note density. I'm making assumptions about your calculation methods here, but maybe you could scale down the weight of per-lane density for low density values (keep it the same or even increase it for really high density)?
On the other hand, the hardest 4k maps are weirdly underrated. Imperishable Night 2006, Bangin' Burst and Kamui are all listed as "I"-level difficulties instead of "X". That can't be right, can it?

My top 7k performance also feels a bit out-of-place. Personally I feel like my FC on Utakata, Ai no Mahoroba [LV.14] should be my top performance, but the algorithm considers Stella [Pro Drum] better. I assume it's because of accuracy since Stella uses OD9, but even so, Stella has a slightly inflated star rating in my opinion. The map uses a lot of chords, but that's about it. They are not even hard chords at all, since most of them are symmetrical and extremely repetitive. And I didn't even FC or anything. So maybe reduce difficulty of highly symmetrical maps if others get the same impression from higher level maps?
kidlat020
91 posts
Joined December 2013
kidlat020
to give an easier example, think of a song with 1000 key counts on both 4k and 7k equally distributed on both hands.

now think that 900 keys are all in the left hand in 7k while still the same in 4k.

hope you get the picture.

also I find those maps MEANT for mania a lot easier to get 300s than those that came from autoconverts. if nothing else, I think many mania players are really, really, REALLY hungry for harder maps. Everything seems very easy to get an S.
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy
There seams to be something very broken about easy mod. I first played this map : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279134 with the EZ mode and got a low 300k score with a 88,6% accuracy which then appeared on my top5 best performance on my profile. So, I decided to beat my score without the mode to get an even better performance. I got 2x my old score BUT a 87,8% accuracy and then I suddenly lost 22 global pp. When I went to my profile, my score went from being worth 180~pp to 116pp.

It doesn't look like the EZ mod gives any kind of penalty and thus can be used to pass maps way easily and still get a better performance then when you don't use it... :|
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

My thoughts as a noob mania player:
4k is overrated at the low level, but underrated for high tier maps.
After accumulating over 1.5k plays of 7k, I tried out 4k for maybe ~150 plays. Now I have 18 4k maps in my top 20 performances (and more beyond that, but I'm too lazy to count). I mean, I probably have an advantage with 4k-type modes due to my taiko experience, but I really don't think it should outscale my 7k performances that easily.
The point is, all of the 4k maps I played are extremely easy to read with simple patterns - yet they are rated as harder than much more complex 7k maps with a similar overall note density. I'm making assumptions about your calculation methods here, but maybe you could scale down the weight of per-lane density for low density values (keep it the same or even increase it for really high density)?
On the other hand, the hardest 4k maps are weirdly underrated. Imperishable Night 2006, Bangin' Burst and Kamui are all listed as "I"-level difficulties instead of "X". That can't be right, can it?

My top 7k performance also feels a bit out-of-place. Personally I feel like my FC on Utakata, Ai no Mahoroba [LV.14] should be my top performance, but the algorithm considers Stella [Pro Drum] better. I assume it's because of accuracy since Stella uses OD9, but even so, Stella has a slightly inflated star rating in my opinion. The map uses a lot of chords, but that's about it. They are not even hard chords at all, since most of them are symmetrical and extremely repetitive. And I didn't even FC or anything. So maybe reduce difficulty of highly symmetrical maps if others get the same impression from higher level maps?
I plan to make quite some changes to the mania difficulty algorithm. Yes, easier 4K diffs are overrated and higher ones underrated. And yes, the algorithm overrates certain patterns in general by a lot, which is bad.


Fudgyking wrote:

There seams to be something very broken about easy mod. I first played this map : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279134 with the EZ mode and got a low 300k score with a 88,6% accuracy which then appeared on my top5 best performance on my profile. So, I decided to beat my score without the mode to get an even better performance. I got 2x my old score BUT a 87,8% accuracy and then I suddenly lost 22 global pp. When I went to my profile, my score went from being worth 180~pp to 116pp.

It doesn't look like the EZ mod gives any kind of penalty and thus can be used to pass maps way easily and still get a better performance then when you don't use it... :|
Easy increases the HitWindow and decreases the accuracy pp you can get for your score by doing that. At your accuracy of ~88% you barely get any accuracy point anyway, so Easy won't really make a difference apart from allowing you to pass the map more easily. You would probably get a lot more pp by getting better scores and accuracy on slightly easier maps. Mind trying out and confirming, denying?

Can someone compare Easy with nomod while doing higher accuracy runs? Anything from 90% - 100% is fine, more feedback is always good.
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy

Tom94 wrote:

Easy increases the HitWindow and decreases the accuracy pp you can get for your score by doing that. At your accuracy of ~88% you barely get any accuracy point anyway, so Easy won't really make a difference apart from allowing you to pass the map more easily. You would probably get a lot more pp by getting better scores and accuracy on slightly easier maps. Mind trying out and confirming, denying?

Can someone compare Easy with nomod while doing higher accuracy runs? Anything from 90% - 100% is fine, more feedback is always good.
Ok here is my feeback. I played this map until I somehow manage to beat my EZ accuracy with no mod and I finally managed to get a 89,25% accuracy. I then went to my profile to see how much pp it was worth now and..... it was worth a mere 158pp; way less than the 181pp my 88,61% EZ mod score gave me. I do not understand how this can be possible if there is truly a decrease in the accuracy pp.

I do not think it is very logical that a EZ pass with ~88% accuracy can even be CLOSE to be worth the same amount of pp as a 89% accuracy with no mod (89% is not even that bad imo).
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna
Did you maybe have a significantly higher max combo or less misses in your Easy run?
Fudgy
47 posts
Joined December 2013
Fudgy

Luna wrote:

Did you maybe have a significantly higher max combo or less misses in your Easy run?
In my easy run, I had a 149x max combo and 41 misses while in my no mod best score, I have a 177x max combo and 42 misses. So, yeah. Nothing that major here :|
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Luna wrote:

Did you maybe have a significantly higher max combo or less misses in your Easy run?
Combo / misses don't really matter in osu!mania. The actual score relative to the maximum possible score is looked at (non-linear before someone complains :P) and accuracy is factored in, too, by a smaller portion. (See the wiki.)
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek
Does SV/BPM changes affect pp?

Its impossible to change scrolling speed while playing now, but as I remember It was possible to do while pausing a game (so, we have pretty high scores on "bpm jumpy" maps, now its pretty hard to get high acc on maps like this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/107565 because of scrolling speed).
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
EZ should definitely be nuked, 50% like its score modifier. I went to go try it and now I'm stuck with 3 plays where all I did was spam for a pass in my top 10. It's literally free pp, even new players can spam for passes on EZ...
Zealtron
28 posts
Joined July 2009
Zealtron
HT also has a similar issue it seems.

EDIT:

Actually nevermind, I think it's getting halved/reduced accordingly. Still feels a bit much IMO.

EDIT2:

Also requesting/suggesting EZ nerf. It's ridiculous, I shot up by 300pp or so with it.
Charles445
Elite Mapper II: Aspirant / osu! Paragon
2,881 posts
Joined March 2009
Charles445
Hello!

Easy mod's effect on osumania PP scoring has become a pretty prevalent point of discussion around #osumania.

Right now Easy mod doesn't take off nearly as many PP points as it needs to. It has become a huge strategy to simply put on Easy mod and spam your way through a very difficult map and reap all of the points.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Case in point, look at my top PP earning score:



I'm gonna miss those points.
Tidek
1,571 posts
Joined March 2011
Tidek

Tidek wrote:

Does SV/BPM changes affect pp?

Its impossible to change scrolling speed while playing now, but as I remember It was possible to do while pausing a game (so, we have pretty high scores on "bpm jumpy" maps, now its pretty hard to get high acc on maps like this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/107565 because of scrolling speed).

Bumping this and 1 more question, does DT in future will affect PP? Because atm its pretty useless mod to use because you are not getting any bonus for map difficulty...
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

Tidek wrote:

Tidek wrote:

Does SV/BPM changes affect pp?

Its impossible to change scrolling speed while playing now, but as I remember It was possible to do while pausing a game (so, we have pretty high scores on "bpm jumpy" maps, now its pretty hard to get high acc on maps like this http://osu.ppy.sh/s/107565 because of scrolling speed).

Bumping this and 1 more question, does DT in future will affect PP? Because atm its pretty useless mod to use because you are not getting any bonus for map difficulty...
Was already implemented, but then removed. And tbh I don't like the fact of playing w/ mods to get more points.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
It would be okay if DT would have it's own scoreboard, right now it's pointless because pepole who were going for #1's can't get pp from DT plays even if they can FC with it, also we didn't really get any response about EZ mod and I don't see changes in mod key weighting, is this thread already abandoned? D:
Luna
2,354 posts
Joined November 2010
Luna

-Kamikaze- wrote:

also we didn't really get any response about EZ mod and I don't see changes in mod key weighting, is this thread already abandoned? D:
There haven't been updates to the pp system for any of the modes in a while, so don't worry - Tom is not specifically ignoring this thread or anything. I'm assuming he's busy with personal stuff; just give it some time and eventually updates will happen.
mathl33t
1 post
Joined April 2013
mathl33t
I just lost 1 pp by beating my best score on a map. My accuracy went down, so maybe it's that. If it is, then scoring needs to be looked at. One or the other of pp and scoring needs to be fixed so that this situation doesn't happen.
Meseki
29 posts
Here since the beginning
Meseki

mathl33t wrote:

I just lost 1 pp by beating my best score on a map. My accuracy went down, so maybe it's that. If it is, then scoring needs to be looked at. One or the other of pp and scoring needs to be fixed so that this situation doesn't happen.
It's already been determined that score alone is not an accurate measure of performance and that your best score may not mean your best performance.

However, I believe that fixing that issue would require either a scoreboard wipe (of over 6 years of scores, since I'm pretty sure the issue applies to all modes) or storing two scores on the server, which would drastically increase the space used.

It's a problem that we may have no choice but to deal with.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Meseki wrote:

mathl33t wrote:

I just lost 1 pp by beating my best score on a map. My accuracy went down, so maybe it's that. If it is, then scoring needs to be looked at. One or the other of pp and scoring needs to be fixed so that this situation doesn't happen.
It's already been determined that score alone is not an accurate measure of performance and that your best score may not mean your best performance.

However, I believe that fixing that issue would require either a scoreboard wipe (of over 6 years of scores, since I'm pretty sure the issue applies to all modes) or storing two scores on the server, which would drastically increase the space used.

It's a problem that we may have no choice but to deal with.
Funny thing that I've beaten my Utakata, Ai no Mahoroba [LV.28] S (95,3%, 800k pts) with an A (94,92%, 821k) and it went from 230pp worth to 237pp. I believe acc has nothing to do with it, it's just weighted by score.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
IIRC Tom said acc DOES have to do with it, but it's far more negligible than actual score.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

PyaKura wrote:

IIRC Tom said acc DOES have to do with it, but it's far more negligible than actual score.
That's true.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
Are we still figuring out a way to fix the EZ mod=Full pp problem?



PS: Sorry for ratting you out like this Blocko ;-; But you're the only example I have
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove
^that lolol
zKskita
23 posts
Joined August 2010
zKskita
I just beat my highest EZ score in Zirkfied with HT by quite a wide margin and went from A to S. The result was losing 16 pp...

Comparison:

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1692819
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

zKskita wrote:

I just beat my highest EZ score in Zirkfied with HT by quite a wide margin and went from A to S. The result was losing 16 pp...
You still got a crap ton of pp for a halftime mod o_o

261 pp for a Zirkfied HT clear on extra!

So we got HT giving almost full pp, EZ giving full pp, and NF giving the least only ._.

EDIT: I did some looking around, and I guess all those clears with EZ or HT are the result of I'd say a 1/3 deduction. 1/3 doesn't seem like enough even. Any player can mash the hardest part of a song with EZ, even the best if they want! I think the pp for Easy mods should be reduced by 2/3-7/8, but that's just me.
Mono3341480
1 post
Joined January 2013
Mono3341480
Should review and change the number of stars (or difficulty) of maps because it is not very consistent to say ...
A 2 star beatmap can be much more difficult than other 2.5 or 3 star ...
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
Well that's to be expected with an algorithm without any pattern recongnition
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

Drace wrote:

Well that's to be expected with an algorithm without any pattern recongnition
This is why I thought we should have a MAT (Mania appreciation team) or something like that. A computer can't compute the difficulty of a mania map like it can for any other game mode difficulty since mania hasn't been around long on osu!. The minds of 20 players more or less if needed can come up with a better solution of difficulty rating. The only problem with starting a team like that is finding a group of well balanced people. I have a few on my mind who could possibly do something like this, but only a few and not knowing if they'd be willing at first.
Drace_old_1
314 posts
Joined April 2011
Drace_old_1
"You" were not the one who thought of it, watch your wording. It was first brought up by Envi and me on page 7.

Considering how we can't even find BATs, a diff grading team might actually not be the best idea. Well for now atleast.
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream

Drace wrote:

"You" were not the one who thought of it, watch your wording. It was first brought up by Envi and me on page 7.

Considering how we can't even find BATs, a diff grading team might actually not be the best idea. Well for now atleast.
The reason I said "I" was because Tom brought up the topic again to me after a suggestion to peppy I gave weeks before the chat feud. (That was when the whole DT PP giving too much feud was happening.)
October Scream
119 posts
Joined June 2013
October Scream
2014-03-09 12:02 October Scream: There is a whole contriversy in #osumania due to your pp system and dt
2014-03-09 12:02 October Scream: http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1403048
2014-03-09 15:55 Tom94: did you take any steps towards a mania difficulty rating team, by the way?
2014-03-09 15:56 October Scream: I've conversed with a few about it, but they usually forget I was talking with them or they're rarely on.
2014-03-09 15:57 Tom94: aww. it would have been really nice to have some big feedback group there
2014-03-09 15:57 October Scream: I would talk with ideu-, Entozer, _S U W A K O_, and MoTeSolo about 7k. And Staiain would be a good 4k reviewer
2014-03-09 15:57 October Scream: Other keys I haven't searched though
2014-03-09 15:58 Tom94: there would have to be multiple representatives for each keymode, though. can't just have a single person / nobody :/
2014-03-09 15:58 Tom94: oh well, gotta deal with what's in the thread so far
2014-03-09 15:58 October Scream: I know. I forgot to mention Gon since he's a good 4k player
2014-03-09 15:58 October Scream: And ok

There's part of the chatlog, Drace. The rest after that was personal problems rather finding a solution to current community problems.
ArcherLove
1,434 posts
Joined March 2013
ArcherLove

17VA wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/b/370840

native faith 1K master? - why 1K
HAHAHAHA XD
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Actually I think acquiring a MAT would be much less difficult to do than finding BATs, since what you have to do for your is simply playtesting, wow.
Yuzeyun
7,650 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/92190 <= 7.11, passed by a lot of people, some being very close to 99%
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/179779 + p/3160605 <= 7.13, having played it I am sure Staiain will have a very hard time passing it.

Why ?
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura

_Gezo_ wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/92190 <= 7.11, passed by a lot of people, some being very close to 99%
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/179779 + p/3160605 <= 7.13, having played it I am sure Staiain will have a very hard time passing it.

Why ?
ACs' SR may very well be broken. You're also comparing an extreme 7K mania spec with a (extreme ?) 4K AC here...
Yuzeyun
7,650 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun
I do, but don't you see the keycount greatly influences the SR of mania mapsets.
Some middle-hard converts which are about 2.5 apparently are higher rated than hard 4K charts, which is unfair.

Also download the map provided in the post I've linked; you will see what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a chart which has 510 1/4 patterns, 255 1/4 jackhammers, and what makes this 4K complete hell.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
my bad forgive me senpia
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

PyaKura wrote:

senpia
Pya being Pya, move along citizens
hamanorts
2 posts
Joined September 2013
hamanorts
Nice to meet you ;)
BSHFT BADT GMBH
BSHFT BADT GMBH
I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
zKskita
23 posts
Joined August 2010
zKskita

Tornspirit wrote:

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
Or they could have stopped being considered for pp entirely. My EZ pass with Shuffle Heaven completely disappeared ._.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

Tornspirit wrote:

SM_Bluefusion wrote:

I think some lower ranked players lost (quite) some PP or am I wrong?
Did something change?

I believe EZ and HT got heavily, heavily nerfed so you can't just spam a song too hard for you on EZ/HT and still get heaps of pp.
And autoconverts still give over 300pp
And Utakata still gives easily over 250 pp
AND MEDIA'S ARE SILENT
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

NOTE: Not exactly sure whether I should report this problem in this thread or start a new one(haven't really been on the forums though I've been playing Osumania! for some time). I'm neither sure whether this problem has already been reported before and solved(haven't found a thread or somewhere on the internet about this problem....).
Also: This is my first post so please don't slaugther me for my inexperience and wrongdoings(as well as poor english)?


I have more or less a problem concerning Osumania! that are actually somewhat pretty irritating...
The problem is:
Slowed note falling speed, but higher note density.
The beatmap still properly follows the song in regards to when a note should be played, but the speed at which the notes falls are significantly slower than what it is supposed to be, and in the meanwhile the notes are far closer(which is why the beatmap still properly follows the song, but goes at a slower rate..).

I found that I could fix this problem on some maps by replaying a ranked map, that goes at the proper speed, which will in turn fix the wrong speed for me.
The problem is then that this does obviously not work for maps that are not ranked..(know that they are slower cuz my brother also have the beatmap and it goes significantly faster, though with the notes spread out some more...)
you need to adjust speed through F3 or F4 in-game or ctrl + or - before starting the song. It's no bug, it's intended. :)
Ulqux
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Ulqux
Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
Taadashi
230 posts
Joined January 2011
Taadashi

Ulqux wrote:

Oh is that so..
Never knew about.....


Looking it up again...
So it's the osumania note falling speed, that any1 can change in order to find what fits them the most?
It feels a bit strange as slower note falling speed makes songs so much easier to play compared to faster... but maybe it may be just because I'm still a novice Osumania player...
When you progress into harder songs it's actually easier to play at higher speeds as long as you can follow the notes since patterns gets more complex and density of notes gets tighter. :)

and yes anyone can change it as they see fit. ;)
Sibula
1 post
Joined May 2012
Sibula
I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Tornspirit
251 posts
Joined January 2012
Tornspirit

Allium97 wrote:

I think there is a pretty bad problem in the formula. I mean... it takes into account the length of the song, so long songs give lots of pp even if they aren't that hard. And if I got it right it doesn't care about the avg./peak density of the song. I don't think it would be overwhelmingly difficult to improve this.
Actually long maps aren't necessarily giving heaps of pp; currently some of the more overrated maps, such as Koi Yomi Zakura, Utakata Ai no Mahoroba, Atropos, Poppin Shower are only around 2 minutes, and give more than they honestly should, while some long songs definitely are underrated such as fortissimo and workaholic. Larger problems are that low level 7k gives a hell of a lot less than low level 4k, vice versa for higher levels, and songs with heavy LN being underrated compared to songs with heaps of chords.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
Unfortunately, trying to create a mathematical model of difficulty for mania is not exactly easy. Gotta say, I'm impressed with tom's work so far, even if it has plenty of imperfections.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
If you're not going to do anything with our suggestions maybe just close the topic and unsticky it?
Noobrage_old
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage_old
1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Noobrage wrote:

1. My english sucks/ enough to understand me
2. I haven't read much in this thread


I actually hate the rankingsystem we got. It shows like 0% improvment. The rankingsystem feels atm like = get a decent rank on a popular song for much PP.
But i dont want to play the popular maps only just to improve my ranking beside there arent even many maps that give you a bunch of PP for a decent rank.

I did climb about 9k places on different maps together today and i've earned about 20 PP for these 9k places.
Play Waterhorizon get Rank 2k and gain 329804723874 PP

I mean guys here is obviously something wrong....
Map popularity and score rank achieved aren't factors in the current pp system anymore (they were factors in ppv1 only).
Noobrage_old
6 posts
Joined December 2012
Noobrage_old
That actually didnt explain why these maps give SO MUCH more PP.
They are mostly (NOT always) harder, but that aint a reason that they should give *10 as much points...
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
maps are popular because they give a lot of PP
not the other way around orz
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
After checking out Logger Pro to try and find a correlation between score/1million and PP awarded (for Aiae SHD) I couldn't find an equation, although it appears to be some sort of exponential with a y-intercept of 500,000 and an exponent of less than one.

Lol I personally would love it if the scores could automatically include how many performance points are awarded for a ranked score. It would likely give people a good indicator/inclination to play maps at or slightly above their level.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I know I thought he meant a fixed amount of pp gained from score only...
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
that would be incredibly silly

farm all [Easy] autoconverts, become top master

just like ppv1!
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Aqo wrote:

PyaKura wrote:

lol there is no direct link between score and pp awarded
actually your pp is directly related to the score and stars on a map and nothing else

yeah
The accuracy percentage also influences the pp gained a bit, but the influence of it is decreased when the star difficulty of the map increases (so, at some point, the influence of it is so small score is the only things that matters).
lemonguy
548 posts
Joined July 2014
lemonguy
I'm sort of new to mania (been playing for 40 some days, have about 2000 pp) and this is my first post, but I really quickly noticed that the ranking system for mania needed to be changed somehow. The thing that bugged me the most is that 4k-8k are weighted the same, but 4k is much easier, so in my case like many others, all of my top scores for pp are from 4k songs. I could do really good in my standards on a 7k song, but not get any pp for it because I did a little better on the 4k songs, even though they are easier. For auto-converts, most of them get low difficulty ratings anyways, and you can easily get more pp from mania charts than you could from auto-converts. IMO, I wouldn't take auto-converts out from giving you pp, because if you're good at mania, you will get more pp from the mania songs anyways. That's just my opinion though, and I don't really know how far you can go, farming standard songs. If there were more ranked mania charts than there are currently available though, I would probably be more for disabling pp for auto-converts. There are also some songs that are considered way too high in difficulty (i.e. Utakata) that give you way too many pp.
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
4K is not necessarily easier than 7K except on an extremely high-level of play because 7K can be more dense than 4K, but for most players 4K focuses on speed, density and stamina whereas 7 and 8K is more about reading difficult patterns. However 4K gives way too much pp for low and mid-level play and not enough for high-level play. Higher key amounts suffer the opposite problem. That's why many players around 0 to 3000~ pp have a 4K song as their top perf whereas the other top players usually have 7K charts as top perfs. (Well there is AiAe but it IS underrated)
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
4K will feel overrated if your speed is better than your reading
7K will feel overrated if your reading is better than your speed

Just like in standard, everyone complains that whatever they're good at is overrated. People who can stream fast say that stream maps give too much pp, people who can aim well say jump maps give too much etc..
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
I meant it as SR underrate 4K too much in comparison to 7 and 8K. I'm confident in saying that AiAe is equal if not harder than, say, IN2K6.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
Frustration
57 posts
Joined September 2013
Frustration

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

caiorandom wrote:

Tristan97 wrote:

I have a quick question about ranking criteria. What are the limits as to the upper end of difficulty for osu!mania maps? I know it’s very difficult to mod properly, but is there a certain star rating that isn’t even rankable even the map is well mapped to a song that fits the genre necessary to create a crazy challenging beatmap?


It would be super cool to see people get over a thousand performance points for a truly difficult song, like Act 2 Liberation 5k CC
It depends on how it is considered overmapped or not, if you manage to map something that is really hard that is well mapped and still not called 'overmapped', then you're good to go.
sadly this does not hold true for standard
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias
The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
Fullerene-
550 posts
Joined April 2013
Fullerene-

Bobbias wrote:

The problem we've been having is that most mappers capable of mapping that difficulty properly don't bother making something rankable.
There's not very many songs that can allow for something crazy to map (at least in mania). They do exist though, but good luck finding them lol
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
pretty sure a lot of BMS stuff technically allows crazy stuff to be mapped, even without looking at how original charts are done. Some "epic musics" (heavy orchestral stuff, such as two steps from hell tracks) can make pretty damn awesome LN charts as well.
Tristan97
189 posts
Joined November 2013
Tristan97
Yes, and I'm all for in people to go for it.
If I can get to that point, I'd like to be able to do such, as I love intense orchestral music.

It's hard to find songs of the right genre, but seriously, I'm pretty sure even the Super Mario Galaxy soundtrack has potential SHD material.
Bara-
11,981 posts
Joined April 2013
Bara-
I have a new idea for this
Instead of score, make it maximum possible score
I know mania pp is not really about accuracy, but about score
However, difficulty reducing mods and lessK mods, do not only give less pp, due to them being these kinds of mod, but as they lower score, also give less pp in Score part
So, instead of it calculating with score/1.000.000, make it score/maximum possible score, for example score/390.000 (EZ+4K for example)
These mods give less pp in 2 ways, but IMO it should only be one
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
don't bother, nobody is looking here
IamBaum
322 posts
Joined August 2013
IamBaum
Well at least there have been 3 now :)
tbh i like that idea baraatje :)
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
*waves hand*
h3ndy_
2 posts
Joined November 2012
h3ndy_
Kinda sad that Mania scoring is still broken :(
I imporved one of my 4K maps from 99,8% acc to 100% and got 3 pp.
Then i improved a much harder map from ~60% to 80% and got -1 pp.
Lol
ikzune
159 posts
Joined August 2013
ikzune
my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze

laishiou wrote:

my idea is that stream songs which only rely one one note for their streams opposed to chordstreams which involve lots of 2+ notes at once end up being harder at lower star ratings so a 3.5 star stream will be harder then a 4.2 star chordstream for example, this is something that needs to be fixed but then the issue i see is 4k being even more overated at early levels due to this, ill let you work this out since i hv no idea how to deal with this problem o.o
That was brought up and discussed 5 or 6 months ago and look at amount of stuff changed.
I don't know why this thread still exists
Anti Fun
14 posts
Joined December 2013
Anti Fun
Performance points don't fit in vsrg. It should be something like dan courses in lr2. It would be more precise and quite easy to implement
PyaKura
2,084 posts
Joined January 2013
PyaKura
Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Bobbias
1,447 posts
Joined March 2011
Bobbias

PyaKura wrote:

Even if you say that it's already too late to implement it and I can hardly imagine a different "ranking system" just for a single game mode (especially since o!m is only 2 years old) since osu!'s been around for quite a while now.
Doesn't matter how long o!m's been out, peppy wouldn't change it anyway. :/

Honestly, PP isn't the worst way to rank players... Imagine how dumb ranks would be if they relied on "ranked score" instead of PP (oh wait, they did years ago, and it was awful).
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Tear wrote:

Ranked score was better than pp, because it didn't pretend to be a proper ranking system. It was a motivation to play because it was going up no matter if you did well or badly, doing well just made it go up faster - unlike pp, which awards you points at first and then slows down, leaving players frustrated and demotivated. Why do we need a proper ranking system? Just a quick look at a few leaderboards tells you who's the best at the game. To fix lowdiff farming, ranked score could be scaled just like mania charts were.
If pp (or rank score, or any other value used for rank) went up noticeably whether or not you did well, then lowdiff farming wouldn't be avoided (unless the scaling from difficulty increases extremely fast with difficulty, for example, the easiest map in the game gives 1 point, a mid-tier map gives 10^35 points, and a top-tier map gives 10^45 points). The purpose of the decrease of pp gain rate from plays is limiting the amount of pp obtained from playing many maps of similar difficulty without increasing the difficulty over time. If the difficulty calculation of the pp system is accurate, then players will keep getting pp as long as they increase the difficulty (or performance) of the maps they play (because of that, a good difficulty calculator for osu!mania maps is very important for making the pp system better).

Looking at beatmap leaderboards of hard maps can give you an idea of who are the best players in the game, but you can't use that method to know the skill ranking of players that aren't as good as those top players (a well designed pp system should be able to give a good idea of that).
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
There's one very simple change that would makes all modes of osu fun, addictive and still rewarding:

Disable pp weighting.

Let it accumulate as you play. Even if you didn't do your best, you still get a few points. Unlike score, pp goes up exponentially so lowdiff farming would be severely reduced.
"But I can just play all the easies in the game for #1!" And pros can play all the insanes for #1, what's your point?
Any attempt to make an objective skill rating is doomed to fail, so why not make the game fun instead? Note that pp without weighting is identical to DJ Points in LR2 and IIDX. Also note that my solution does not render Tom's work obsolete at all, pp as a measure of a score's worth is still used to reward skill and make you go up faster than playing easier stuff.
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Tear, that's just plain wrong. You want everyone to play tons of autoconverts to get their score up? That's going back to ppv1, which as we know sucked dicks. Current pp system is okay-ish, if we'd get some attention and some fixes to formula, we'd have a realy good system. But oh,well.
Tear
332 posts
Joined January 2012
Tear
Don't we all agree that autoconverts should be unranked, lol
Kamikaze
2,898 posts
Joined November 2012
Kamikaze
Unrank autoconverts and bam, current system is 2 times better. Also, you should know by now that no one is going to change anything
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