Flashlight already gives bonus pp, and not an insignificant amount.VioletMaid wrote:
this sounds unfair to flashlight
though i do hate flashlight
forum
Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode
posted
Total Posts
318
Topic Starter
Even the simplest (new) scoring method that might be added is still going to be better than the current one.
I mean...... I also do think that current pp system is not exactly perfect and might change(which sucks, since your pp might drop randomly) in future.
However, does that mean current best scoring system makes more sense ans should be left unchanged?
A score system that doesnt even care the first 10 100s and that does care last one 100?
Score system that takes 120pp right away from you just because you decided to HD on a previously-DT-best scored-map?
hello?
be a person who knows how to think about how it can be better than before, not a crybaby who says NO all the time.
There is no such ing as perfect, but there is a thing called "better"
I mean...... I also do think that current pp system is not exactly perfect and might change(which sucks, since your pp might drop randomly) in future.
However, does that mean current best scoring system makes more sense ans should be left unchanged?
A score system that doesnt even care the first 10 100s and that does care last one 100?
Score system that takes 120pp right away from you just because you decided to HD on a previously-DT-best scored-map?
hello?
be a person who knows how to think about how it can be better than before, not a crybaby who says NO all the time.
There is no such ing as perfect, but there is a thing called "better"
It'd be interesting. Getting all 300's to the end of the song, you have only 4-5 notes left, You are placed 10th on the map, then completely f up the final stream. You'll end up dropping from 10th to 500th. If we take this route with the scoring system, this is exactly what's going to happen. Scores won't be just scaling up, they will be increasing / decreasing as you play through the song.
An issue that I think would have problems is the lower diffs where there is literally only 1pp or a few extra points in Aim/Acc/Spd difference between each mod. That means anyone who can spin would only have to run two mods (DT HR) and they'd have a first even on medium length spinners.
At this point, having an option to sort by PP earned would be better than having the scoreboard adjust since it wouldn't be the top PP players in first. The current system also has this problem, but I see it being even worse with the new system since mods no longer would give a set value, and would probably make the multipliers within only a few decimal places of each other because of how close they are in performance.
It depends on how it is calculated as I'm no mathematician to be able to even comprehend how it might be calculated, but the difference between mods on easy songs, and mods on hard songs is extremely big. We have to make sure all ranges of difficulties can be calculated properly.
Just some things I thought of while reading through this thread for a few days. I'm not against this, nor am I supporting it. I'm just going to stay neutral in this whole thing.
PP is out of my reach with this new system since it doesn't work to my style of playing so I've honestly just given up on it. I've never really been competitive anyways, no do I care really about improving my speed skills. I'd rather improve at something I have fun doing (Flashlight and 100%ing slow songs no one has before.)
Is this a good idea? Yes, very much so. However, I still think there are lots of problems that need to be taken care before we can safely transfer over to it. Many of which have already been listed. Right now I think it is way too early still to be pushing this feature as hard as this thread seems to be wanting to. The system isn't even closed to being finished with the other modes, Seems like there is still some balancing issues to deal with, etc. If there is going to be such a big change as switching over to a different method of scoring, everything has to be completed and ready to go, doing bits and pieces at a time would make it a disaster, especially with how delicate the system is with reasons you (kyou) and tom have mentioned.
An issue that I think would have problems is the lower diffs where there is literally only 1pp or a few extra points in Aim/Acc/Spd difference between each mod. That means anyone who can spin would only have to run two mods (DT HR) and they'd have a first even on medium length spinners.
At this point, having an option to sort by PP earned would be better than having the scoreboard adjust since it wouldn't be the top PP players in first. The current system also has this problem, but I see it being even worse with the new system since mods no longer would give a set value, and would probably make the multipliers within only a few decimal places of each other because of how close they are in performance.
It depends on how it is calculated as I'm no mathematician to be able to even comprehend how it might be calculated, but the difference between mods on easy songs, and mods on hard songs is extremely big. We have to make sure all ranges of difficulties can be calculated properly.
Just some things I thought of while reading through this thread for a few days. I'm not against this, nor am I supporting it. I'm just going to stay neutral in this whole thing.
PP is out of my reach with this new system since it doesn't work to my style of playing so I've honestly just given up on it. I've never really been competitive anyways, no do I care really about improving my speed skills. I'd rather improve at something I have fun doing (Flashlight and 100%ing slow songs no one has before.)
Is this a good idea? Yes, very much so. However, I still think there are lots of problems that need to be taken care before we can safely transfer over to it. Many of which have already been listed. Right now I think it is way too early still to be pushing this feature as hard as this thread seems to be wanting to. The system isn't even closed to being finished with the other modes, Seems like there is still some balancing issues to deal with, etc. If there is going to be such a big change as switching over to a different method of scoring, everything has to be completed and ready to go, doing bits and pieces at a time would make it a disaster, especially with how delicate the system is with reasons you (kyou) and tom have mentioned.
Well, guess we have different views about skill then. I think ranks like top HD or FL scores are well desevered.Kyou-kun wrote:
Why should there be more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy? Those are the skills that deserve high ranks, and currently, they often get low ones instead.
Yes, I do. Because you can easily retry over 100s at the start, so they should be way less important than 100s later on.Kyou-kun wrote:
As for the 100s at the start not mattering as much: Do you really think that makes sense? That a lower accuracy score with the same mods and combo often beats a higher accuracy score because of that?
pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.
I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.
maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.
I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.
maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
Not sure if serious.dennischan wrote:
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
I really hope this will be the case for osu!mania in the future. For now, using DT is useless because it's extremely hard to beat a no-mod score when there is a score limit and DT does not boost score.
DT scores are harder to achieve and should be on top of the rankings and also boost performance.
DT scores are harder to achieve and should be on top of the rankings and also boost performance.
If you're not going super fast or producing scores with godlike accuracy/aim your score isn't good (relatively) and hence should not be rewarded with a spot in the leader boards.Ziggo wrote:
The main reason is that I think the current scoring system is more fun. Some examples: There are more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy. Also you don't need to restart a map every time you get some 100s at the start if you want to get into the rankings.Kyou-kun wrote:
Can you offer reasons for why you wouldn't like it? Do you think the pp system is inaccurate, or perhaps the current score system is more accurate? If so, why?
The second point is, that changes in the pp-system would change the scoring system every time. This would result in even less changes to the system. Also, I believe a consistent scoring system is better in general.
Topic Starter
It sounds to me like you don't understand how pp works. It does consider every hit object in the map, and calculates the beatmap's difficulty based on the average and maximum strain of your aim, speed, and accuracy. Sometimes this can cause inaccurate calculations, but those are pretty much always only inaccurate for the overall ranking system, and don't really affect individual leaderboards. Yes, Koigokoro is overrated in terms of pp, but each individual score on the map can be placed very accurately. In fact, I think pp works better as a scoring system than as a ranking system.dennischan wrote:
pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.
I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.
maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
As for saying "DT is just high speed spamming", that's your inner rank 30,000 speaking.
What about getting 95% FC with Flashlight is more skillful than 90% FC (or even less than FC) with DT on FREEDOM DiVE? Do you really think those two scores are even comparable? One is doable by a few players if they put enough time into the game; the other is impossible for any player at the current time, no matter how much time they put into the game. pp already considers how much DT increases difficulty by recalculating, so DT gives larger bonuses to difficult maps (as it should), where Flashlight's bonus is static (as it should be).Ziggo wrote:
Well, guess we have different views about skill then. I think ranks like top HD or FL scores are well desevered.
So because those 100s are easier to fix, you think it shouldn't matter as much? What's the reasoning behind that? All the hit circles have the same judgment, and ignoring variations in speed, it's equally easy to get a 100 on all of them.Ziggo wrote:
Yes, I do. Because you can easily retry over 100s at the start, so they should be way less important than 100s later on.Kyou-kun wrote:
As for the 100s at the start not mattering as much: Do you really think that makes sense? That a lower accuracy score with the same mods and combo often beats a higher accuracy score because of that?
I wouldn't mind being able to sort plays by pp gains, but I don't want performance points to become the main scoring system. We already have enough people spamming DT on everything and this would just encourage that kind of play style further rather than teaching people to become accurate. If you can get a high accuracy with DT on a difficult song then you deserve to hold the top 50 on that map. I don't think it's fair to completely throw the other mods out the window. Ether go for pure pp gains or try to achieve high scores on maps, do you really need both at the same time?
In short, I don't really care if a score is deemed more impressive or not by the pp system. These biases will always exist, and removing score will just make this into an even bigger problem. Not to mention ruining all the current scores and making everything into a big mess. I think everything works fine how it is now. Being able to sort scores by pp is a much better idea in my opinion (and there are already a few topics that suggest that).
I agree that the current system is far from perfect, but I don't think the pp system is meant to be the main scoring system.
In short, I don't really care if a score is deemed more impressive or not by the pp system. These biases will always exist, and removing score will just make this into an even bigger problem. Not to mention ruining all the current scores and making everything into a big mess. I think everything works fine how it is now. Being able to sort scores by pp is a much better idea in my opinion (and there are already a few topics that suggest that).
I agree that the current system is far from perfect, but I don't think the pp system is meant to be the main scoring system.
Topic Starter
Speed and aim are often better than accuracy. Accuracy is often better than speed and aim. pp calculates this and decides which score involved the most skill. I don't see how it's encouraging players to be less accurate. thelewa is known for having great accuracy, where his other skills aren't really comparable, and he's rank #5 overall by the pp system. How would this be possible if pp encouraged speed and aim but not accuracy?
The fact is that speed and aim are vastly underrated with the current system, whereas pp is balanced.
The fact is that speed and aim are vastly underrated with the current system, whereas pp is balanced.
DT best mod
make it give all the pp
and 1.13x thx
tu much hd hr pushing dt plays off the scoreboard when not as impressiv
better alternative to pp scoring
make it give all the pp
and 1.13x thx
tu much hd hr pushing dt plays off the scoreboard when not as impressiv
better alternative to pp scoring
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :pCalignoBot wrote:
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Im gonna remain neutral for the rest of this thread I think :B
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.Fudgyking wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Also there's no obfuscation. People will know exactly how they got on the scoreboards because the way score is calculated is perfectly common knowledge and makes for absolute accuracy and is better for comparison purposes.
And it's always been that way.
Topic Starter
But it's not perfect. It's flawed. You also don't seem to have read the third post in this thread.
On an insane map, 1x100 makes a difference with pp, so it's as precise as it needs to be.
On an insane map, 1x100 makes a difference with pp, so it's as precise as it needs to be.
Kyou-kun wrote:
But it's not perfect. It's flawed. You also don't seem to have read the third post in this thread.
On an insane map, 1x100 makes a difference with pp, so it's as precise as it needs to be.
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game. And because the way PP is calculated.. and because unranked maps do exist.. etc..
That aside, if we keep the way the game works right now and have score used in game [which we will], just not for anything but measuring your individual circle clicks, you're playing the map and there's this arbitrary number on the top right called "Score" while on the left the scoreboard just has combo and PP. That kind of disconnect doesn't really promote competition but just obfuscates it. Why even show your play underneath the scoreboard in-game if it's just going to show your score/combo compared to their pp/combo, how would you even climb onto the scoreboard whilst playing since PP isnt even calculated til the end?
And on easy-normals its going to be rather silly to just see something like "38 pp" repeated 50 times on 2 different maps that might have a very different max combo like 300 vs 1000 but they were worth the same PP and everyone SS'd it so whose to say what's different about playing them?
If anything, just get rid of HD HR getting a decimal advantage over DT in score multiplier, and get rid of Half Time scores showing up entirely, and scoreboards are perfect the way they are imo. There are even less reasons why Peppy would disagree with that proposal but even so there's still a 0% chance of it happening because he hates touching the scoreboards.
On a final note, Peppy severed the association between PP and actual rank on maps with ppv2 came out, i dont think he'd link them again.
p.s wouldnt mind being able to see scores by PP rank with a filter like friends/country etc as a supporter though. As Global its just too much.
Who looks at their score while playing?? It's just a meaningless large number.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game.
Topic Starter
Where do I start...
2. Unranked maps don't affect this at all.
3. Why does it matter if every note gives a pp or not? You don't pay attention to your score the whole play, I'm sure. The only time your score matters is at the end, which is why what I proposed in point "1" of this post seems reasonable.
5. A method to calculate pp dynamically, mid-play can be created.
1. There are plenty of ways that pp could be shown in-game while playing. I think the most reasonable way to implement this would be to have a "descending" score method; that is, you start with the max pp possible for the map, and it goes down as you make mistakes. I already proposed this for accuracy a long time ago in this forum, but it never got anywhere.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game. And because the way PP is calculated.. and because unranked maps do exist.. etc..
2. Unranked maps don't affect this at all.
3. Why does it matter if every note gives a pp or not? You don't pay attention to your score the whole play, I'm sure. The only time your score matters is at the end, which is why what I proposed in point "1" of this post seems reasonable.
4. Why would the number at the top right have to continue to exist in the game? In my opinion, it just adds clutter. Even if score were to remain the scoring method, it would still be reasonable if that number were removed.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
That aside, if we keep the way the game works right now and have score used in game [which we will], just not for anything but measuring your individual circle clicks, you're playing the map and there's this arbitrary number on the top right called "Score" while on the left the scoreboard just has combo and PP. That kind of disconnect doesn't really promote competition but just obfuscates it. Why even show your play underneath the scoreboard in-game if it's just going to show your score/combo compared to their pp/combo, how would you even climb onto the scoreboard whilst playing since PP isnt even calculated til the end?
5. A method to calculate pp dynamically, mid-play can be created.
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
And on easy-normals its going to be rather silly to just see something like "38 pp" repeated 50 times on 2 different maps that might have a very different max combo like 300 vs 1000 but they were worth the same PP and everyone SS'd it so whose to say what's different about playing them?
6. Even with DT being worth a little bit more, it's still imbalanced in my opinion. You don't even need close to a full combo on some maps to get really high pp on them with DT because of how the pp system recalculates map difficulty based on mods. DT doesn't affect slow maps as much as it does fast ones, so a flat bonus could never work well for a scoring system.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
If anything, just get rid of HD HR getting a decimal advantage over DT in score multiplier, and get rid of Half Time scores showing up entirely, and scoreboards are perfect the way they are imo.
7. He severed the association between pp and score rank in specific, because he recognized how little score matters when considering actual skill. If the leaderboards did represent actual skill, I don't think there would be any problem with connecting them to the ranking system.]Bassist Vinyl wrote:
On a final note, Peppy severed the association between PP and actual rank on maps with ppv2 came out, i dont think he'd link them again.
well except it wouldnt unless they had the exact same star rating.Kyou-kun wrote:
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.
Topic Starter
So you're talking about different maps? I still don't get your point. Why would it matter if there were multiple different maps where several scores are worth 38 pp?
and what about calculating pp dynamically while playing? you're rarely ever going to be coming close to your best performances so it's just going to be demoralizing unlike Score. It just doesn't seem like it will play well and will rarely be useful while playing. Maybe for replays.
diff. max combos gave diff. score which gave a better idea of the map, showing only pp says nothing about the map really.Kyou-kun wrote:
So you're talking about different maps? I still don't get your point. Why would it matter if there were multiple different maps where several scores are worth 38 pp?
Well, max combo could be easily displayed in addition to map length, number of hit circles, sliders, etc. Actually it should be either way, cause I don't like having to check global rankings (or in editor) to see it.
Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
All those FL scores dissapearing out of the Ranking. I think a lot of tears would fall.Drezi wrote:
I don't understand why people are against this idea. It's just a matter of disliking change I guess, being attached to legacy methods.
Personally, I love this Idea, since I think HT and FL ist just lame. Killer Song is probably the best example for this.
If you can't accept the fact that pp is accurate, at least compared to score system, you are dumb. I can confidently say that.
Seems like
(score of) 10 100s on very begining of the map >>> 1 100 on the last note
makes sense for you. There is no word that I can properly describe you but I'm pretty much confident that you don't make sense at all
the scoreboard "looks" like they performed different because this score system has a huge flaw, making the first 10 100s virtually useless and the last 100 really matter much. If you think this score system is perfect for comparison, you got a problem there.
Even myself could think of how you can change this score system into pp-related, and friendly to users. I'm pretty sure Tom or peppy already has similar or better idea of "how pp can be directly converted to score". Please don't say we'll have tons of "#1 - 149pp" thinks on our scoreboard. they are going to be scaled to big number for sure when it comes to score. Although there might be lots of same score since there actually are many 100~99% accs with same mod and same number of 100-50-x in top #50 records, this is how it is supposed to be (and there is another thing called spinner)
I see literally no valid reason on why pp(or at least that reflects pp) score shouldn't be implemented in this entire post. Why? current scores? Cause it always has been? Yeah, of course the slavery and kingdom cuz it always has been for people in history? lmao.
Also the old scores can be converted pretty easily for sure if they decide to replace current retarded score system into pp related one. (only troublesome stuff I see is spinner)
How is having a same rank or point a problem when they performed the same?Bassist Vinyl wrote:
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.Fudgyking wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Also there's no obfuscation. People will know exactly how they got on the scoreboards because the way score is calculated is perfectly common knowledge and makes for absolute accuracy and is better for comparison purposes.
And it's always been that way.
Seems like
(score of) 10 100s on very begining of the map >>> 1 100 on the last note
makes sense for you. There is no word that I can properly describe you but I'm pretty much confident that you don't make sense at all
the scoreboard "looks" like they performed different because this score system has a huge flaw, making the first 10 100s virtually useless and the last 100 really matter much. If you think this score system is perfect for comparison, you got a problem there.
Even myself could think of how you can change this score system into pp-related, and friendly to users. I'm pretty sure Tom or peppy already has similar or better idea of "how pp can be directly converted to score". Please don't say we'll have tons of "#1 - 149pp" thinks on our scoreboard. they are going to be scaled to big number for sure when it comes to score. Although there might be lots of same score since there actually are many 100~99% accs with same mod and same number of 100-50-x in top #50 records, this is how it is supposed to be (and there is another thing called spinner)
I see literally no valid reason on why pp(or at least that reflects pp) score shouldn't be implemented in this entire post. Why? current scores? Cause it always has been? Yeah, of course the slavery and kingdom cuz it always has been for people in history? lmao.
Also the old scores can be converted pretty easily for sure if they decide to replace current retarded score system into pp related one. (only troublesome stuff I see is spinner)
Where did I indicate that I was responding to anything in this thread outside the overall idea of it?xasuma wrote:
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :pCalignoBot wrote:
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Im gonna remain neutral for the rest of this thread I think :B
So something like this?
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"That's what I think would be best, but I don't think the replays save the spinner bonus, so there'd have to be some other way to show the score instead, perhaps only for plays where some other player is tied."
"That's what I think would be best, but I don't think the replays save the spinner bonus, so there'd have to be some other way to show the score instead, perhaps only for plays where some other player is tied."
If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Screw staying neutral in this thread
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Screw staying neutral in this thread
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
HD HR isn't even in the same plane of existence as DT in terms of PP. xasuma is absolutely right.Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
the HD HR play has higher acc and yet is not even able to come to within half of the PP gain on the other play.
Anyone able to get at least a half combo on a song with DT is going to completely overshadow all HD HR full combos. I don't personally have a problem with the game basically becoming a DT only playground, but some [many] will.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say you'll be FORCIBLY YANKING rank 1's and spot on top 50 scoreboards away from players on like 90%+ of maps.
What it boils down to, does jesus deserve rank 1 on cataclysm for that DT FC? Absolutely. Do people who mash their way through tv size maps with DT and happen to get a decent combo deserve to completely replace people with HD HR 99%+ fcs? I'd say not...
No, you are actually wrong. I have tested them. HD doesn't bother me , therefore I can achieve a lot of scores with the same accuracy as no mod. And the pp gain is none. OK maybe 0.xx but that could be something else for all we know .Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
And the pp gain of hr exists yes, but that is a steep curve to keep your acc. And even when you do, it's nothing compared to DT.
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc. Worse acc will be very harsh on your pp though, that's why you can lose pp if you HD with sligthly more 100s. Still I don't see how this is tied to this suggestion, this is a pp related problem, which noone said is perfect, only that since it's the main (and currently most accurate) ranking system, it should be used for maps aswell.
It's obvious that the current 1.06 multiplier of HD vs 1.12 of DT does not even come close to representing the real difference in difficulty, even if pp favors DT too much it's still a lot closer.
It's obvious that the current 1.06 multiplier of HD vs 1.12 of DT does not even come close to representing the real difference in difficulty, even if pp favors DT too much it's still a lot closer.
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.
:B
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.pielak wrote:
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
pp internally has a fractional part, so ordering by pp really wouldn't be an issue.
There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist, so I believe that at this point having a stable scoring system outweights the benefits of using pp for determining which scores to keep. Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
Spoiler alert: A little bit of rebalancing in pp might be coming soon.
You didn't refute any of my points, though. Yes, score is inaccurate, but there is no reason to replace it. If you can sort both by score and by pp both sides win.Kyou-kun wrote:
How often is the algorithm updated in a way which would affect beatmap leaderboards significantly? While it's a problem, I don't see it to be a significant enough one to warrant the use of such an inaccurate system.
There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist, so I believe that at this point having a stable scoring system outweights the benefits of using pp for determining which scores to keep. Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
Spoiler alert: A little bit of rebalancing in pp might be coming soon.
Bauxe wrote:
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...
:^)Kyou-kun wrote:
There's people who actually don't think this way. These are usually Flashlight players, or proponents of Flashlight mod weighting remaining the same. It's really quite surprising to me that some people don't think that players with more skill deserve better ranks.BRBP wrote:
They're less skilled, they don't deserve to be in the ranking list.
-Kyou
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the end.Tom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
I don't think they mind their per-map ranks much, when global rank - which I think is more important, especially for non top-tier players - changes anyway if there are changes made to PP.Tom94 wrote:
Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
Can you give an example of a score which is worth less than it should be with the current system? In particular, give me an example of one using the Hidden mod, if you can.xasuma wrote:
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
qftDrezi wrote:
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the endTom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
Because your points are mainly opinions which you and I disagree on.Tom94 wrote:
You didn't refute any of my points, though
Don't understand this post at all.BRBP wrote:
^
I'm not saying scores are worth less than they should.
All I'm saying that in comparison, dt is far more rewarding pp wise, than any of the other mods, for most songs, in most circumstances, considering most of the skills most players have.
And the example was HD. Most players won't bother in most situations to HD FL or even HR some songs .
Fine, yes, technically this is correct that top 50 might be more accurate in dt able maps. But most people won't appreciate it I don't think.
Whatever, with this much of split in opinions regarding this, there is no way they will replace scores for pp.
At most they will add it and have them side by side, and have two different top 50. Which is fine.
I'm not saying scores are worth less than they should.
All I'm saying that in comparison, dt is far more rewarding pp wise, than any of the other mods, for most songs, in most circumstances, considering most of the skills most players have.
And the example was HD. Most players won't bother in most situations to HD FL or even HR some songs .
Fine, yes, technically this is correct that top 50 might be more accurate in dt able maps. But most people won't appreciate it I don't think.
Whatever, with this much of split in opinions regarding this, there is no way they will replace scores for pp.
At most they will add it and have them side by side, and have two different top 50. Which is fine.
Adding them side by side should be fine, cause then people will realize on their own how skewed and unrealistic score-leaderboards are compared to PP ones, so it'll be possible to phase out score ones completely without much of an uproar.
I mean sure HDHR overall might be underappreciated due to close to perfect acc being valued so high, but it should be obvious that when we're comparing these mods on the SAME map, DT is a lot harder than the other mods, so obviously it's gonna be reflected in PP.
going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
I mean sure HDHR overall might be underappreciated due to close to perfect acc being valued so high, but it should be obvious that when we're comparing these mods on the SAME map, DT is a lot harder than the other mods, so obviously it's gonna be reflected in PP.
going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
Drezi wrote:
going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
Od.
i have the same feeling as Lanturn on this idea...i think in general having a "skill-Leaderboard" is totally fine and many people would like that idea since its more "accurate" in its sense of giving "hard Scores" their attention...but you can't make such a major change without getting a HUGEE amount of hatred from the community...so the seperate leaderboard for PP is the "best" thing that can be done
The only people who would get hurt from this are shitty FL players who only care about getting #1's and can't even SS normal/easy difficulties with DTHRFL.
I have no #1's currently but if this happens I will get a bunch of #1's thanks to bad accuracy FL players getting out of the way. (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91593&m=0 here is an example. They didn't even use HR)
And this would not hurt mid-level players, if they don't want to be mid-level players they should stop caring about spinning on normal diffs or whatever and try to improve their skill so they can do actually impressive scores.
I don't like how speed is the most important skill right now so I hope pp splits into three parts like tp in the future, this might solve the problems people have with DT.
I have no #1's currently but if this happens I will get a bunch of #1's thanks to bad accuracy FL players getting out of the way. (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91593&m=0 here is an example. They didn't even use HR)
And this would not hurt mid-level players, if they don't want to be mid-level players they should stop caring about spinning on normal diffs or whatever and try to improve their skill so they can do actually impressive scores.
I don't like how speed is the most important skill right now so I hope pp splits into three parts like tp in the future, this might solve the problems people have with DT.
I mentioned that they didn't use HR because I personally can't play FLHD at all, There are some SS DTHD and better accuracy DTHR scores on the map so I think they could do better if they really did memorize the map. But using a score from 2 years ago isn't totally fair I guess he did nothing wrong if we judge by ppv1.[ Tao ] wrote:
It's a bad example: FL players don't use HR because it made the map harder to memorize (FL needs advanced reflexes and memorization, especially for maps who have more than 300 combos, and HR made it even more harder) and not necessarily because they have bad acuracy. I didn't tried the map though, but if it was that easy, you would see some full mods scores.
And advanced FL players can DTHRFL Easy/Normal maps, quite easily.
I also think the score system is not perfect but as Kingkevin30 said I think it would be better to have seperate leaderboards, it's too late now for a major change like this. But good idea though.
About the advanced FL players, What about this guy? https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1308621 He would lose lots of #1's due to accuracy if map rankings changed. I admit I don't have the patience to do the scores he does but it annoys me when I see his silver S ranks surrounded by SS scores.
FL still gives aim bonus and if map rankings split into three (I don't think this will ever happen) FL scores would still have good aim.
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.xasuma wrote:
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.
:B
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?jesus1412 wrote:
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
I didn't even read past this post, but I think you forgot that DT affects accuracy and aim as well as speed. As far as I can tell, HR predominantly affects accuracy.xasuma wrote:
If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Screw staying neutral in this thread
So... I don't understand the point you're trying to make here?
Well it is primarily speed over the other two. Everyone should agree on that..
Other than that, I think my post was clear enough for anyone to understand. Maybe reading all posts might help before you pick a random post and wonder why is not clear to you.
Other than that, I think my post was clear enough for anyone to understand. Maybe reading all posts might help before you pick a random post and wonder why is not clear to you.
Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.
I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.
I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.CalignoBot wrote:
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.
Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
If you're talking about DT being monopolized, then my entire point is that it's not an issue because DT is significantly harder than HR to get good scores with. If you're talking about something else, then state it again.xasuma wrote:
CalignoBot wrote:
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.
And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.
Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).
I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.
The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).
I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.
The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.
Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.
The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).
I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.
The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.
Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?dennischan wrote:
1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-dennischan wrote:
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
Did you even read the whole damn post? I meant that at this moment it is not suitable to replace score with pp, and I'm for both of them coexisting. What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps, it should not be used as a scoring system since nobody knows how much HIDDEN FAULTS there is in the pp system. For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.Drezi wrote:
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?dennischan wrote:
1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-dennischan wrote:
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple.
Kaeru wrote:
To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).
I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.
The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).
I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.
The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.
Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
I agree~ I like FL more than DT
also best argument ever
(The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone. )
It's already being used as a means of comparing people's performances which are based on different maps.dennischan wrote:
What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps
I don't even... That's what the score system does.. First of all it considers your combo, if it's not near full your score is pretty much irrelevant automatically, and then it considers accuracy, but your accuracy towards the end matters 100x more than the rest, so plenty times a worse acc score ranks higher than a higher acc one with the same mods and combo.. PP is based on these stats too, but considers a lot more factors making it a lot more representative, how can you even argue against this??dennischan wrote:
For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.
Yeah, what else would DT be considered when it changes the map to something which could have been mapped nomod on an other song of the same BPM?dennischan wrote:
Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple
Slapping on a 1,12 multiplier for DT does not judge it better, than objectively using the same algorythm to evaluate the modified map. Yeah patterns are not recognized, that's why pp still needs work as a global ranking but this DOES NOT affect the comparision of scores on the same map at all, if anything PP is a lot better as a per-map ranking system, than a global one yet due to this very fact.
But I think someone already pointed this out, so maybe you should read the thread so things wouldn't have to be explained twice, and you wouldn't keep bringing up arguments which have been refuted plain and simple.
I'm perfectly fine with people having different opinions, if you have reasonable arguments that can't be rendered invalid by merely pointing out objective facts.. That gets pretty tedious.
Fair points indeed. I'll agree that we should wait until the big issues (that are mentioned) are fixed before this is implemented for sure.dennischan wrote:
Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.
I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Your understanding of the bonus from hidden is beyond flawed. If HD gave more than it currently did it would be more rewarding relative to it's difficulty than DT. Maybe 20 pp isn't much in the big picture but for a single score that's A LOT of pp.xasuma wrote:
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?jesus1412 wrote:
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
He is right about the PP system's flaws, but he is not right about this having any effect on it being applied as a per-map ranking system instead of score, which does a lot worse job at evaluating different mods and performances. These flaws should have only affected it being applied as a global ranking system that compares performances between different maps, but that has already happened anyway.jesus1412 wrote:
I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
Even if let's say with a dance number was so severly underrated that a HR FC SS would be worth only 100 PP, it wouldn't mean any harm to per map rankings, since everyone's performances would be undervalued, and still the best performance would be first (with that 100 pp), etc.
I agree with this.Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
Yeah thissimplyparanoid wrote:
I agree with this.Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
You might as well just remove HD and FL from the game completely if you wanted to base the scoring on pp (and everyone knows good pp scores are always DT)
I wish there was a way to add sort of negative stars
^I feel like this is a much, much better idea.Tom94 wrote:
I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
While the ranking system may be flawed and a poor indicator of skill it's much better than what we had before (for instance ppv1). The flaws aren't a huge vice that prevent it from being used the way it is- in fact most players are happy with the system. Anyone who complains about it either just really want to see more progress on the system or just weren't around for the earlier ranking systems. I rarely to never hear top players complain about the system right now. And aside from that, this thread isn't really the right place to discuss the accuracy of pp. While it may aid arguments about whether or not a scoring system like this should be implemented it doesn't really belong here.
My personal opinion on this is that I really think it should be implemented. Tom himself said there are a few things that would need to be addressed (such as pp recalculations and stored replays) but aside from that I think that it is a very sound idea and I can't see many disadvantages to it. Not only that but Tom seems to already have some of his own ideas about implementing it that sound effective.
Anyways this request has my full support and I hope that it does eventually get implemented. It would even warrant you to be more competitive, which I always find as a good thing.
Have all my stars
My personal opinion on this is that I really think it should be implemented. Tom himself said there are a few things that would need to be addressed (such as pp recalculations and stored replays) but aside from that I think that it is a very sound idea and I can't see many disadvantages to it. Not only that but Tom seems to already have some of his own ideas about implementing it that sound effective.
Anyways this request has my full support and I hope that it does eventually get implemented. It would even warrant you to be more competitive, which I always find as a good thing.
Have all my stars
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.
Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.nocipher wrote:
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.
Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Basically both of you have the same opinion : current score system sucks, thus score system needs to be changed (so that highest score/ best score means higher pp) but you are just trying to be offensivejesus1412 wrote:
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.nocipher wrote:
Goodwork.
better think before posting
This would render scores practically meaningless and that's bad for something that is the focus of a leaderboard. You would have scores in complete random order. It would be such a mess that you might as well just not display score at all, but that would mean there would be no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing.
I don't want this to happen.
I don't want this to happen.
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"pp is considered by many to be a good representation of performance, and thus not random. Because of this, I don't think you should claim it is random or would place scores in random order, at least not without evidence to support your claim. The formulas for how pp works are displayed for all to see on the osu! wiki. No random factors are present in any of those formulas, for any mode, which is strong evidence that your claim is incorrect.
As for there being no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing: I already addressed this in the thread."
"pp is considered by many to be a good representation of performance, and thus not random. Because of this, I don't think you should claim it is random or would place scores in random order, at least not without evidence to support your claim. The formulas for how pp works are displayed for all to see on the osu! wiki. No random factors are present in any of those formulas, for any mode, which is strong evidence that your claim is incorrect.
As for there being no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing: I already addressed this in the thread."
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score. Score will cease to be relevant and so that 7 figure number that racks up when you hit things wont mean anything. If you get a few misses (well actually even a few more 100s will do), might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"Again, I'd like evidence to show that your claims are valid. You seem to contradict yourself in this post.
So which is it? The fact is that more modded plays with misses will be on the leaderboards with my proposed system than with the current system. Case in point, my 577 combo DT score on this map, which is in my top performances with a value of 237 pp. Were I to go SS that map with nomod (in one try, might I add), my leaderboard rank would increase but my pp would drop drastically. If my proposed system were in place, I'd likely already be in the top 50.
"Again, I'd like evidence to show that your claims are valid. You seem to contradict yourself in this post.
So accuracy is the most important stat with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score.
So combo is by far the most important with pp (essentially the same as the scoring system now)?TheVileOne wrote:
If you get a few misses, might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less.
So it's not accuracy or combo, but difficulty that is the most important factor with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
So which is it? The fact is that more modded plays with misses will be on the leaderboards with my proposed system than with the current system. Case in point, my 577 combo DT score on this map, which is in my top performances with a value of 237 pp. Were I to go SS that map with nomod (in one try, might I add), my leaderboard rank would increase but my pp would drop drastically. If my proposed system were in place, I'd likely already be in the top 50.
Why would you in the first place? Unless you're trying to abuse the current flaws in the scoring system so you can get an undeserved rank.TheVileOne wrote:
Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
That's sort of the point of this feature request."TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
For example, on shit like this, the current, well deserved #1 would be toward the end of the scoreboard, despite the fact that Dungeon could have easily gotten an DT+HD SS on it 50+ times on it with the amount of plays he put into it.
For this to happen, there would have to be a lot of work done to pp to more accurately measure the skill required for certain FL scores, because at the current point in time it's extremely underrated, and if this was the new scoring system, FL would totally be broken and would be extremely unfair to current FL pros or people who just want to try really hard to rank high on a map. The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Edit: I would think it would be cool to have a separate list you could click on that shows the highest pp plays and the pp that was received on it.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
For example, on shit like this, the current, well deserved #1 would be toward the end of the scoreboard, despite the fact that Dungeon could have easily gotten an DT+HD SS on it 50+ times on it with the amount of plays he put into it.
For this to happen, there would have to be a lot of work done to pp to more accurately measure the skill required for certain FL scores, because at the current point in time it's extremely underrated, and if this was the new scoring system, FL would totally be broken and would be extremely unfair to current FL pros or people who just want to try really hard to rank high on a map. The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Edit: I would think it would be cool to have a separate list you could click on that shows the highest pp plays and the pp that was received on it.
TheVileOne wrote:
Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?NixXSkate wrote:
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.
You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
I think that replacing the rankings like that is kinda unfair to the people who farmed the map for FL scores. It invalidates all their time spent memorizing the map because they intentionally wanted to achieve that number one. Flashlight can be more than "just memory" as well, and memorizing maps does actually require some level of skill anyways. This is why there need to be separate leaderboards for a map ranking system like this. Score can stay (it probably will never disappear)
Compromises happen. For example: ppv2 beta.
Compromises happen. For example: ppv2 beta.
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps. You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed. Part of the current scoring system's beauty is that people can rank higher with sheer determination with the hidden mods, the only problem is that it can be exploited because LIKE ppv2, the FL and HD scoring is totally inaccurate and mostly a percentage increase rather than being determined by the map itself. For a system to replace this one, it would have to give fair reward to both physical and mental skill, but that may ruin the magic of what ppv2 is, raw physical skill.Drezi wrote:
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?
It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.
You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that? It's way too broken if it has that little consideration to the mental challenge added to the map. The score system's problem according to you is that it measures hidden, flashlight, and combos too generously, but ppv2 only measuring physical skill gives extremely little or inaccurate bonus to hidden or flashlight, which I think is even worse. It discourages people to be challenged with these mods, as well. The score and ppv2 system are both important, neither should be used for the other.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.NixXSkate wrote:
You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.NixXSkate wrote:
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.NixXSkate wrote:
Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
Also:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.Drezi wrote:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises. I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
To be honest, the merits of playing FL can be debated to no end, but this is not really relevant to this suggestion, since the value of FL can be adjusted to an accepted amount which is agreed upon in both systems (more easily in pp I believe).
FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
Sorry if the explanation is a bit messy.
Either that, or you could display the PP you'd recieve if the score was submitted at that time without finishing the song. I know that wouldn't be possible normally, but I think the system could still evaluate it the same way based on combo, number of 300s etc out of the total of the map.DT-sama wrote:
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses.TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
I'm talking about being able to complete the map with a good score.BRBP wrote:
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.CalignoBot wrote:
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
If you can get a good score with no-mod, you can get a good score with Flashlight. All you need to do is spend up to thousands of tries perfecting it. It doesn't make you more skilled at the game. All it does is prove you can put the time in to manually memorizing the whole map consistently enough to FC it.
I think it's a really interesting suggestion, but in my opinion it's too much of an ideological request rather than being a realistic one.
Surely, it is great to have scoring that is mostly dependant by skill, but scoring as it is now already reflects skill quite a bit. It's indeed a bit flawed since it's too dependent on your performance at specific times rather than overall performance, e.g. hitting a handful of 100's at the end of a big combo will lower your score more than when hitting a handful earlier when your combo is still in the double digits, while overall your performance is still the same. But those flaws are quite minor and if you look at the bigger picture, better scores are harder to achieve than worse scores.
Also, having four different scoreboards for individual stats wouldn't be much of an addition, since they would already be heavily determined by the style of the map itself. Hence the current scoreboard already tells a lot about a player's capabilities if you're interested and motivated enough to look into a player's abilities.
The most significant change that this would bring that I am interested in is the fact that your highest pp rewarding score would be taken into account, rather than the score with the highest actual score. Meaning getting a good score with DT when you already have a 99% FC no-mod score, would actually become an interesting thing to do, as right now it would net you absolutely nothing.
Surely, it is great to have scoring that is mostly dependant by skill, but scoring as it is now already reflects skill quite a bit. It's indeed a bit flawed since it's too dependent on your performance at specific times rather than overall performance, e.g. hitting a handful of 100's at the end of a big combo will lower your score more than when hitting a handful earlier when your combo is still in the double digits, while overall your performance is still the same. But those flaws are quite minor and if you look at the bigger picture, better scores are harder to achieve than worse scores.
Also, having four different scoreboards for individual stats wouldn't be much of an addition, since they would already be heavily determined by the style of the map itself. Hence the current scoreboard already tells a lot about a player's capabilities if you're interested and motivated enough to look into a player's abilities.
2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.PP is actually updated quite regularly and not as consistent as score is, considering the scoring algorithm is updated practically never. It's indeed not much of an issue, but it can make scoreboards fluctuate too much and rankings would become less solid and therefore less reliable because the score you set today might change over the course of time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.It would also have a major impact on gameplay. Right now, as you play the song you can watch your score increase and it can be a satisfying thing to see. Once you get to the point where overall performance starts playing a significant role, you'll get bothered a lot by breaking combos and seeing your shitty accuracy after going ham with 100's on a long stream. Seeing those is already demotivating, and to many of us a reason to hit the retry button for a better attempt right away. Imagining seeing the possible max pp all the time and the only thing it will do is decrease, and you'll constantly have the shitty feeling of not being able to get the highest possible amount of pp when you actually played the song quite well.
The most significant change that this would bring that I am interested in is the fact that your highest pp rewarding score would be taken into account, rather than the score with the highest actual score. Meaning getting a good score with DT when you already have a 99% FC no-mod score, would actually become an interesting thing to do, as right now it would net you absolutely nothing.
This by a long shot. Several people fail to understand how hard FL actually is especially at a high BPM with DT. Sorry to say this Drezi but I highly disagree with you. DT+FL should give a lot more pp then HD+DT.NixXSkate wrote:
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.Drezi wrote:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises.
I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.I...really REALLY like this idea. It would make it so that it goes in the order of HD>HR>FL>DT instead of HD=HR>FL=DT. It makes no sense to me that HD is worth the same score multiplier as HR. HR physically changes the map which makes it legitimately more difficult. The CS, AR, OD and HP all multilplies by 1.4 when HR mod is enabled while HD mod remains unchanged. Only real difference with HD is that now you have to aim each note a little bit better since each note becomes invisible after a while. Changing HD multiplier down to 1.03x or 1.04x would make a lot more sense to me while HR should remain unchanged. As for FL, I believe that it should NOT beat DT however it should definitely beat HD (by itself) and HR (by itself). I believe that changing FL to 1.09x or 1.10x would make more sense to me. This will make it so that HD+HR would be worth just slightly more then FL alone (if acc is good enough) and make it so that DT by itself beats HD+HR (if acc is good enough). This would also make it so that HD+DT+HR would be worth just slightly more then HD+DT+FL which is good seeing that HR makes everything harder to time. This would balance out the scoring system a lot better in my opinion.
I will admit, I was originally all for the idea of making ppv2 as the new scoring system but then I look into it deeply and realized that doing this would not be such a great idea due to the fact that ppv2 has not fully evolved enough for it to become the new scoring stream as well as FL being so under capped in comparison to the other mods. It makes absolutely no sense that HD+DT gives much more pp then DT+FL for example. PPv2 focuses mainly on pure physical skill and very little of mental skill. There needs to be a good enough balance between the two before I can accept this.
Dennischan said all I wanted to say.
ppv2 might be more accurate for a majority of the playerbase, but there are still exceptions. It's not perfect and certainly far from being absolute because it can be changed towards perfection. Scoring is at least an absolute system, because it never changes.
The solution is to incorporate an absolute component into ppv2, so that pattern recognition and memory recall ability can be accurately accounted for in future revisions to the system, allowing it to be worked towards perfection at no cost to the players scores/replays which would otherwise disappear without a trace.
Legacy for viewing score ranks could stick around for a while as people adjust to it and replay data is gathered. It would also serve well for testing purposes, especially since we've only ever seen TP top scores (which only gathered data from the top50). We may be surprised to discover what kind of scores get accepted into the top50 over others, and whether they are actually more terrible than we had first imagined. It's never been tested publicly on this scale, the feedback would be very important and probably better to start sooner than later.
ppv2 might be more accurate for a majority of the playerbase, but there are still exceptions. It's not perfect and certainly far from being absolute because it can be changed towards perfection. Scoring is at least an absolute system, because it never changes.
The solution is to incorporate an absolute component into ppv2, so that pattern recognition and memory recall ability can be accurately accounted for in future revisions to the system, allowing it to be worked towards perfection at no cost to the players scores/replays which would otherwise disappear without a trace.
Will support if per-mod high scores and replays are implemented, to avoid top50 replay problems upon changes to the system, and allow people to sift through potentially great scores not being rewarded as they should, and bring them to attention.Tom94 wrote:
There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist,
Legacy for viewing score ranks could stick around for a while as people adjust to it and replay data is gathered. It would also serve well for testing purposes, especially since we've only ever seen TP top scores (which only gathered data from the top50). We may be surprised to discover what kind of scores get accepted into the top50 over others, and whether they are actually more terrible than we had first imagined. It's never been tested publicly on this scale, the feedback would be very important and probably better to start sooner than later.
I think this is the way to go. Score doesn't even matter in osu!. So why would you want to sort ranks by score anyways.
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
I don't think this is fair to the HDHR and FL players.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.Ace3DF wrote:
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
I don't even care if this gets implemented or not anymore. Just fix what it says in my signature .. You can't have people afraid of playing the game.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.CalignoBot wrote:
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.Ace3DF wrote:
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
Topic Starter
So apparently constant variation for a more accurate and precise system is worse than an old system that sucks but never changes. Imagine if all the scientists and inventors of the world thought that way.Kaeru wrote:
Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
Your last sentence is basically an admission that score is, in fact, an inaccurate system. Otherwise, why would you ever want to replace a higher score with a lower score? If it was accurate, then the best play would get the highest score.
Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL.
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Topic Starter
That's not how it works, and even if it was, it isn't really relevant to my request.Ace3DF wrote:
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.