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Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
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haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957
If you can't accept the fact that pp is accurate, at least compared to score system, you are dumb. I can confidently say that.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

Fudgyking wrote:

Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?

How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?

How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?

Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.

Also there's no obfuscation. People will know exactly how they got on the scoreboards because the way score is calculated is perfectly common knowledge and makes for absolute accuracy and is better for comparison purposes.

And it's always been that way.
How is having a same rank or point a problem when they performed the same?
Seems like
(score of) 10 100s on very begining of the map >>> 1 100 on the last note
makes sense for you. There is no word that I can properly describe you but I'm pretty much confident that you don't make sense at all

the scoreboard "looks" like they performed different because this score system has a huge flaw, making the first 10 100s virtually useless and the last 100 really matter much. If you think this score system is perfect for comparison, you got a problem there.

Even myself could think of how you can change this score system into pp-related, and friendly to users. I'm pretty sure Tom or peppy already has similar or better idea of "how pp can be directly converted to score". Please don't say we'll have tons of "#1 - 149pp" thinks on our scoreboard. they are going to be scaled to big number for sure when it comes to score. Although there might be lots of same score since there actually are many 100~99% accs with same mod and same number of 100-50-x in top #50 records, this is how it is supposed to be (and there is another thing called spinner)

I see literally no valid reason on why pp(or at least that reflects pp) score shouldn't be implemented in this entire post. Why? current scores? Cause it always has been? Yeah, of course the slavery and kingdom cuz it always has been for people in history? lmao.

Also the old scores can be converted pretty easily for sure if they decide to replace current retarded score system into pp related one. (only troublesome stuff I see is spinner)
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

I like this idea enough to match your stars.

Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :p

Im gonna remain neutral for the rest of this thread I think :B
Where did I indicate that I was responding to anything in this thread outside the overall idea of it?
Lanturn
osu! Alumni
3,912 posts
Joined March 2012
Lanturn
So something like this?

Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"That's what I think would be best, but I don't think the replays save the spinner bonus, so there'd have to be some other way to show the score instead, perhaps only for plays where some other player is tied."
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.

Screw staying neutral in this thread :D
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

xasuma wrote:

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko
:cry:

Drezi wrote:

xasuma wrote:

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.
HD HR isn't even in the same plane of existence as DT in terms of PP. xasuma is absolutely right.



the HD HR play has higher acc and yet is not even able to come to within half of the PP gain on the other play.

Anyone able to get at least a half combo on a song with DT is going to completely overshadow all HD HR full combos. I don't personally have a problem with the game basically becoming a DT only playground, but some [many] will.

In fact, I'd go so far as to say you'll be FORCIBLY YANKING rank 1's and spot on top 50 scoreboards away from players on like 90%+ of maps.

What it boils down to, does jesus deserve rank 1 on cataclysm for that DT FC? Absolutely. Do people who mash their way through tv size maps with DT and happen to get a decent combo deserve to completely replace people with HD HR 99%+ fcs? I'd say not...
Last edited by Vuelo Eluko , edited 3 times in total.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

Drezi wrote:

xasuma wrote:

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.
No, you are actually wrong. I have tested them. HD doesn't bother me , therefore I can achieve a lot of scores with the same accuracy as no mod. And the pp gain is none. OK maybe 0.xx but that could be something else for all we know .

And the pp gain of hr exists yes, but that is a steep curve to keep your acc. And even when you do, it's nothing compared to DT.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc. Worse acc will be very harsh on your pp though, that's why you can lose pp if you HD with sligthly more 100s. Still I don't see how this is tied to this suggestion, this is a pp related problem, which noone said is perfect, only that since it's the main (and currently most accurate) ranking system, it should be used for maps aswell.

It's obvious that the current 1.06 multiplier of HD vs 1.12 of DT does not even come close to representing the real difference in difficulty, even if pp favors DT too much it's still a lot closer.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

Drezi wrote:

HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
Proof please.

And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.

:B
pielak213
463 posts
Joined April 2010
pielak213
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

pielak wrote:

Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94
pp internally has a fractional part, so ordering by pp really wouldn't be an issue.

Kyou-kun wrote:

How often is the algorithm updated in a way which would affect beatmap leaderboards significantly? While it's a problem, I don't see it to be a significant enough one to warrant the use of such an inaccurate system.
You didn't refute any of my points, though. Yes, score is inaccurate, but there is no reason to replace it. If you can sort both by score and by pp both sides win.

There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist, so I believe that at this point having a stable scoring system outweights the benefits of using pp for determining which scores to keep. Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.

Spoiler alert: A little bit of rebalancing in pp might be coming soon.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO

Bauxe wrote:

You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...

Kyou-kun wrote:

BRBP wrote:

They're less skilled, they don't deserve to be in the ranking list.

-Kyou
There's people who actually don't think this way. These are usually Flashlight players, or proponents of Flashlight mod weighting remaining the same. It's really quite surprising to me that some people don't think that players with more skill deserve better ranks.
:^)
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Tom94 wrote:

The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the end.

Tom94 wrote:

Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
I don't think they mind their per-map ranks much, when global rank - which I think is more important, especially for non top-tier players - changes anyway if there are changes made to PP.
Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:

xasuma wrote:

You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
Can you give an example of a score which is worth less than it should be with the current system? In particular, give me an example of one using the Hidden mod, if you can.

Drezi wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the end
qft

Tom94 wrote:

You didn't refute any of my points, though
Because your points are mainly opinions which you and I disagree on.

BRBP wrote:

Don't understand this post at all.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
^
I'm not saying scores are worth less than they should.
All I'm saying that in comparison, dt is far more rewarding pp wise, than any of the other mods, for most songs, in most circumstances, considering most of the skills most players have.

And the example was HD. Most players won't bother in most situations to HD FL or even HR some songs .
Fine, yes, technically this is correct that top 50 might be more accurate in dt able maps. But most people won't appreciate it I don't think.

Whatever, with this much of split in opinions regarding this, there is no way they will replace scores for pp.
At most they will add it and have them side by side, and have two different top 50. Which is fine.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Adding them side by side should be fine, cause then people will realize on their own how skewed and unrealistic score-leaderboards are compared to PP ones, so it'll be possible to phase out score ones completely without much of an uproar.

I mean sure HDHR overall might be underappreciated due to close to perfect acc being valued so high, but it should be obvious that when we're comparing these mods on the SAME map, DT is a lot harder than the other mods, so obviously it's gonna be reflected in PP.

going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.

Od.
Kingkevin30
629 posts
Joined November 2010
Kingkevin30
i have the same feeling as Lanturn on this idea...i think in general having a "skill-Leaderboard" is totally fine and many people would like that idea since its more "accurate" in its sense of giving "hard Scores" their attention...but you can't make such a major change without getting a HUGEE amount of hatred from the community...so the seperate leaderboard for PP is the "best" thing that can be done
Zaruhohl
9 posts
Joined July 2013
Zaruhohl
The only people who would get hurt from this are shitty FL players who only care about getting #1's and can't even SS normal/easy difficulties with DTHRFL.

I have no #1's currently but if this happens I will get a bunch of #1's thanks to bad accuracy FL players getting out of the way. (https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91593&m=0 here is an example. They didn't even use HR)

And this would not hurt mid-level players, if they don't want to be mid-level players they should stop caring about spinning on normal diffs or whatever and try to improve their skill so they can do actually impressive scores.
I don't like how speed is the most important skill right now so I hope pp splits into three parts like tp in the future, this might solve the problems people have with DT.
Zaruhohl
9 posts
Joined July 2013
Zaruhohl

[ Tao ] wrote:

It's a bad example: FL players don't use HR because it made the map harder to memorize (FL needs advanced reflexes and memorization, especially for maps who have more than 300 combos, and HR made it even more harder) and not necessarily because they have bad acuracy. I didn't tried the map though, but if it was that easy, you would see some full mods scores.

And advanced FL players can DTHRFL Easy/Normal maps, quite easily.

I also think the score system is not perfect but as Kingkevin30 said I think it would be better to have seperate leaderboards, it's too late now for a major change like this. But good idea though.
I mentioned that they didn't use HR because I personally can't play FLHD at all, There are some SS DTHD and better accuracy DTHR scores on the map so I think they could do better if they really did memorize the map. But using a score from 2 years ago isn't totally fair I guess he did nothing wrong if we judge by ppv1.

About the advanced FL players, What about this guy? https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1308621 He would lose lots of #1's due to accuracy if map rankings changed. I admit I don't have the patience to do the scores he does but it annoys me when I see his silver S ranks surrounded by SS scores.

FL still gives aim bonus and if map rankings split into three (I don't think this will ever happen) FL scores would still have good aim.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

xasuma wrote:

Drezi wrote:

HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
Proof please.

And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.

:B
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.

xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

jesus1412 wrote:

wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?

You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).

Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.

Screw staying neutral in this thread :D
I didn't even read past this post, but I think you forgot that DT affects accuracy and aim as well as speed. As far as I can tell, HR predominantly affects accuracy.

So... I don't understand the point you're trying to make here?
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Well it is primarily speed over the other two. Everyone should agree on that..
Other than that, I think my post was clear enough for anyone to understand. Maybe reading all posts might help before you pick a random post and wonder why is not clear to you.
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan
Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.

I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma

CalignoBot wrote:

xasuma wrote:

Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.

And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.

Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

xasuma wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.

And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.

Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
If you're talking about DT being monopolized, then my entire point is that it's not an issue because DT is significantly harder than HR to get good scores with. If you're talking about something else, then state it again.
Kaeru
302 posts
Joined February 2013
Kaeru
To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).

I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.

The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).

I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.

The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.

Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

dennischan wrote:

1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.

dennischan wrote:

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-
dennischan
454 posts
Joined June 2013
dennischan

Drezi wrote:

dennischan wrote:

1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.

dennischan wrote:

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-
Did you even read the whole damn post? I meant that at this moment it is not suitable to replace score with pp, and I'm for both of them coexisting. What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps, it should not be used as a scoring system since nobody knows how much HIDDEN FAULTS there is in the pp system. For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.

Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple.

Kaeru wrote:

To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).

I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.

The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).

I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.

The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.

Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.


I agree~ I like FL more than DT
also best argument ever
(The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone. )
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

dennischan wrote:

What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps
It's already being used as a means of comparing people's performances which are based on different maps.

dennischan wrote:

For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.
I don't even... That's what the score system does.. First of all it considers your combo, if it's not near full your score is pretty much irrelevant automatically, and then it considers accuracy, but your accuracy towards the end matters 100x more than the rest, so plenty times a worse acc score ranks higher than a higher acc one with the same mods and combo.. PP is based on these stats too, but considers a lot more factors making it a lot more representative, how can you even argue against this??

dennischan wrote:

Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple
Yeah, what else would DT be considered when it changes the map to something which could have been mapped nomod on an other song of the same BPM?
Slapping on a 1,12 multiplier for DT does not judge it better, than objectively using the same algorythm to evaluate the modified map. Yeah patterns are not recognized, that's why pp still needs work as a global ranking but this DOES NOT affect the comparision of scores on the same map at all, if anything PP is a lot better as a per-map ranking system, than a global one yet due to this very fact.

But I think someone already pointed this out, so maybe you should read the thread so things wouldn't have to be explained twice, and you wouldn't keep bringing up arguments which have been refuted plain and simple.

I'm perfectly fine with people having different opinions, if you have reasonable arguments that can't be rendered invalid by merely pointing out objective facts.. That gets pretty tedious.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

dennischan wrote:

Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.

I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Fair points indeed. I'll agree that we should wait until the big issues (that are mentioned) are fixed before this is implemented for sure.

xasuma wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?

You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
Your understanding of the bonus from hidden is beyond flawed. If HD gave more than it currently did it would be more rewarding relative to it's difficulty than DT. Maybe 20 pp isn't much in the big picture but for a single score that's A LOT of pp.


I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

jesus1412 wrote:

I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
He is right about the PP system's flaws, but he is not right about this having any effect on it being applied as a per-map ranking system instead of score, which does a lot worse job at evaluating different mods and performances. These flaws should have only affected it being applied as a global ranking system that compares performances between different maps, but that has already happened anyway.

Even if let's say with a dance number was so severly underrated that a HR FC SS would be worth only 100 PP, it wouldn't mean any harm to per map rankings, since everyone's performances would be undervalued, and still the best performance would be first (with that 100 pp), etc.
viora_
10 posts
Joined July 2013
viora_

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

simplyparanoid wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
Yeah this

You might as well just remove HD and FL from the game completely if you wanted to base the scoring on pp (and everyone knows good pp scores are always DT)

I wish there was a way to add sort of negative stars


Tom94 wrote:

I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
^I feel like this is a much, much better idea.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Yarissa
While the ranking system may be flawed and a poor indicator of skill it's much better than what we had before (for instance ppv1). The flaws aren't a huge vice that prevent it from being used the way it is- in fact most players are happy with the system. Anyone who complains about it either just really want to see more progress on the system or just weren't around for the earlier ranking systems. I rarely to never hear top players complain about the system right now. And aside from that, this thread isn't really the right place to discuss the accuracy of pp. While it may aid arguments about whether or not a scoring system like this should be implemented it doesn't really belong here.

My personal opinion on this is that I really think it should be implemented. Tom himself said there are a few things that would need to be addressed (such as pp recalculations and stored replays) but aside from that I think that it is a very sound idea and I can't see many disadvantages to it. Not only that but Tom seems to already have some of his own ideas about implementing it that sound effective.

Anyways this request has my full support and I hope that it does eventually get implemented. It would even warrant you to be more competitive, which I always find as a good thing.

Have all my stars
nocipher
3 posts
Joined January 2013
nocipher
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.

Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
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