community forum

Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

posted
Total Posts
320
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,679
Topic Starter
Ohrami
As many people (including peppy) know, the current scoring system is highly flawed and inaccurate. Currently, there is a working system that most people find to be extremely accurate for rating scores, and that is the ranking system, pp.

It's hard to list all the reasons why this would be better than the current score system. A better question would be: Why not? Well, let's list some advantages of this system first:

1. It would make it so that scores wouldn't get beaten by a "worse" play anymore. People won't be able to easily beat 95% DoubleTime scores with Flashlight or Hidden+Hardrock. However, people will be able to beat their old HDHR or FL scores with new DT scores (which is a problem I'm currently having with some maps, that I can't beat my old HDHR scores because my DT accuracy is too low, despite the fact that the DT scores would be worth 2x the pp!). This also means that less skilled players can set scores with HDHR and not be afraid that a low accuracy DT might not be able to beat it in the future (the only reason I haven't HDHR'd Remote Control, for example), which would actually result in more accurate rankings.

2. It would more accurately represent what most people consider to be skillful. A lot of the time, scores that are ranked 1000 with the current system would in fact be high up in pp, perhaps in the top 50 of the map. Most people don't care to see low skill Hidden or HardRock scores in the top 50 when somewhere way below there's a DoubleTime with a nearly full combo which blows all of those plays out of the water.

3. If pp were to implement the three stats (aim, speed, accuracy) which tp has implemented, it could even open up a possibility to have 4 separate scoreboards on each map: Overall, Aim, Speed, and Accuracy, and the game could save the highest score a player has set for each scoreboard. This way, all players could show what they're truly capable of for each stat; a lot of the time a 95% DoubleTime+Hidden score might be worth an extremely high amount of pp because of the speed and aim required, but isn't worth much in terms of accuracy. With this system, a player could not only play that map with DTHD, but also with HDHR to get a high accuracy score as well.

There are a few disadvantages to this system, though, those being:

1. It would jumble the ranks around enough that a good portion of many scoreboards would have plays which lack replays, at least until those plays are pushed down by better scores.

2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.

3. Any scores which were set in the past which didn't beat their highest score with the current system, but would have with the proposed system, obviously wouldn't be counted. This could cause a lot of issues with players asking that some of their scores be placed into the leaderboard because of the fact that the only reason they currently are not is because they were set before the system was changed.


In my opinion, the pros far outweigh the cons. If anyone has anything else to add, please feel free to post!


Edit: Because people keep asking, there are two reasons why mods can't be buffed or nerfed to more accurately represent skill. The first reason is that because mods don't literally multiply your score exactly, it would be impossible to recalculate old scores. This was one of the main arguments against my previous suggestion. The second reason is because a flat bonus on map-changing mods (such as DoubleTime or HardRock) doesn't work or make sense in terms of rating how difficult a play really is. Not all maps will be 1.12x more difficult with DoubleTime; some will be less, and others much more. That is what the star rating system is for.


Edit 2: Me and likely most of the supporters of the thread would be completely fine with there being an alternate "pp" scoreboard, so long as it's possible to set this scoreboard as the one viewed by default, and so long as high scores for both "pp" leaderboards and "score" leaderboards are saved.
Quack
Quack.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
I forgot to mention: In the case that two scores are tied for pp, the highest score for the old system will get the higher rank. This will make sure that "spinner wars" aren't annihilated, and ensure that spinner bonus isn't made completely useless.
Sulker
That good ol 69 stars. Nice idea Kyou. Wished I had stars to give
Ziggo
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
BRBP

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
xasuma
I dont personally like it. Maybe I dont mind it, I just like the current system better I think.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
Can you offer reasons for why you wouldn't like it? Do you think the pp system is inaccurate, or perhaps the current score system is more accurate? If so, why?
Period
I wouldn't mind this if both systems were side by side. As in, you could select

Top 50s by Score
or
Top 50s by Performance

the same way you select which gamemode you want to see top 50s in, at least on the web interface for beatmaps. In-game could just work with the dropdown like selecting country and friend ranks does.

I think being able to set a top 50 through your score opens the game up to be a lot more competitive to weaker players (Players who can HD+HR, for example, rather than DT), so it shouldn't be removed completely. If you removed top 50s by score, only the very best players would ever get a top 50s on the popular maps, so in the end, for a lot of maps, it would look very similar to the normal ranking system.

I think including both score systems would be a larger benifit. Maybe Top 50s by Performance could be the default, but I think maybe that would be too big a transition all at once. Including both seems like a better solution.

It would look pretty good on profiles too, imo:

[User] achieved Performance rank #42 on [Map] (osu!)
and
[User] achieved Score rank #14 on [Map] (osu!)
Drezi
I don't understand why people are against this idea. It's just a matter of disliking change I guess, being attached to legacy methods.

Cause there are no rational reasons other than the technical problems, for this not to be implemented. If pp is the most accurate measurement of skill right now, why would you only want global/country player rankings to use it, but not map rankings? Map rankings should display an order based on skill obviously, and the most accurate measurement of that is pp right now.

Too bad I don't have stars.

Also this is a little off topic, but don't you think country rankings should use the same weighting method to calculate an overall country pp based on it's player's pps, the same way our pp is calculated based on our best performances? You know the [performance above*0.95] weighting. Cause right now it's almost exclusively based on active player number.
Maxis

Period wrote:

I wouldn't mind this if both systems were side by side. As in, you could select

Top 50s by Score
or
Top 50s by Performance

the same way you select which gamemode you want to see top 50s in, at least on the web interface for beatmaps. In-game could just work with the dropdown like selecting country and friend ranks does.

I think being able to set a top 50 through your score opens the game up to be a lot more competitive to weaker players (Players who can HD+HR, for example, rather than DT), so it shouldn't be removed completely. If you removed top 50s by score, only the very best players would ever get a top 50s on the popular maps, so in the end, for a lot of maps, it would look very similar to the normal ranking system.

I think including both score systems would be a larger benifit. Maybe Top 50s by Performance could be the default, but I think maybe that would be too big a transition all at once. Including both seems like a better solution.

It would look pretty good on profiles too, imo:

[User] achieved Performance rank #42 on [Map] (osu!)
and
[User] achieved Score rank #14 on [Map] (osu!)
I agree with this. While I do like the idea of having scoring system based on pp, another con to this not yet mentioned is that there are thousands upon thousands of scores right now (based on, well, score) that people would be pretty mad about if they spent so much time trying to get and suddenly weren't top 50 anymore. Having both systems works best IMO, it keeps the old score system for those who prefer it more as well as a new and generally more accurate one.
jesse1412
Sounds good. Change is progress.

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
Hopefully you are in the minority and this does happen.

Period wrote:

I wouldn't mind this if both systems were side by side. As in, you could select

Top 50s by Score
or
Top 50s by Performance

the same way you select which gamemode you want to see top 50s in, at least on the web interface for beatmaps. In-game could just work with the dropdown like selecting country and friend ranks does.

I think being able to set a top 50 through your score opens the game up to be a lot more competitive to weaker players (Players who can HD+HR, for example, rather than DT), so it shouldn't be removed completely. If you removed top 50s by score, only the very best players would ever get a top 50s on the popular maps, so in the end, for a lot of maps, it would look very similar to the normal ranking system.

I think including both score systems would be a larger benifit. Maybe Top 50s by Performance could be the default, but I think maybe that would be too big a transition all at once. Including both seems like a better solution.

It would look pretty good on profiles too, imo:

[User] achieved Performance rank #42 on [Map] (osu!)
and
[User] achieved Score rank #14 on [Map] (osu!)
I don't see why weaker players should even stand a chance, they're weaker, if they don't improve they will stay weak and die out of the ranking. Think of it like osu! natural selection, the weak die and the strong live on.

Maxis wrote:

I agree with this. While I do like the idea of having scoring system based on pp, another con to this not yet mentioned is that there are thousands upon thousands of scores right now (based on, well, score) that people would be pretty mad about if they spent so much time trying to get and suddenly weren't top 50 anymore. Having both systems works best IMO, it keeps the old score system for those who prefer it more as well as a new and generally more accurate one.
This argument really just keeps coming back as the biggest slap in the face to things I want to happen honestly. I recall making a thread about nerfing halftime because it's just so strong on hard maps but it got shot down for the reason that people spent a lot of time trying to get their scores and so I had to find an alternative; now the same argument is back again here. If a score is weaker then I don't really care how long you spent getting it, the score is weaker and shouldn't matter in a competitive game. Effort shouldn't be rewarded, performance should be rewarded and that seems to be the direction the ranking system wanted to go with the introduction of pp, ppv2 and tp.

I'll put it really harshly and plainly: I don't care if you spent 6 years trying to FL the unforgiving marathon if someone else double times it. Your score is clearly in my eyes the most well attempted when using flashlight but it's still just pointless now that someone has a DT score. If you want to win by effort then you should doubletime the map with flashlight and prove that you're not only better but willing to try harder.

Another example because flashlight gets bad press. I don't care if you spent 8000 retries trying to halftime fc fourdimensions, you aren't even close to someone who gets a 1000 combo and your score shouldn't even be considered a thing compared to them.

One last example because halftime is another taboo mod. I don't care if you spent 60 hours playing and fcing image material with 98% acc and hd when someone else has a 95% hr fc. Your hd score ISN'T as good no matter what your actual score says.
silmarilen
the pp in standard may not have changed much (if at all) but the other modes are still a mess. this is a good idea, but i think we better wait untill those are fixed first.
BRBP
:oops:
Topic Starter
Ohrami
And generally rhythm games become more difficult when they get faster. I don't really see your point, and I even mentioned that players will not only be able to prove their speed, but also their accuracy in my third point in the OP. I should also mention that most people would say pp represents accuracy better; would you like a 94% Hidden score to beat a nomod SS?

Period wrote:

I think being able to set a top 50 through your score opens the game up to be a lot more competitive to weaker players (Players who can HD+HR, for example, rather than DT), so it shouldn't be removed completely. If you removed top 50s by score, only the very best players would ever get a top 50s on the popular maps, so in the end, for a lot of maps, it would look very similar to the normal ranking system.
I don't understand why you see this as a bad thing. osu! isn't a game intended to hold your hand and make things easier; if it were, we wouldn't see beatmaps like FREEDOM DiVE and Rainbow Dash Likes Girls getting ranked. If the map is really so popular that most of the top 50 players on the game have tried their best on it, I think it's reasonable to expect that they fill the leaderboards. They are, after all, the best.
Maxis

jesus1412 wrote:

This argument really just keeps coming back as the biggest slap in the face to things I want to happen honestly. I recall making a thread about nerfing halftime because it's just so strong on hard maps but it got shot down for the reason that people spent a lot of time trying to get their scores and so I had to find an alternative; now the same argument is back again here. If a score is weaker then I don't really care how long you spent getting it, the score is weaker and shouldn't matter in a competitive game. Effort shouldn't be rewarded, performance should be rewarded and that seems to be the direction the ranking system wanted to go with the introduction of pp, ppv2 and tp.

I'll put it really harshly and plainly: I don't care if you spent 6 years trying to FL the unforgiving marathon if someone else double times it. Your score is clearly in my eyes the most well attempted when using flashlight but it's still just pointless now that someone has a DT score. If you want to win by effort then you should doubletime the map with flashlight and prove that you're not only better but willing to try harder.

Another example because flashlight gets bad press. I don't care if you spent 8000 retries trying to halftime fc fourdimensions, you aren't even close to someone who gets a 1000 combo and your score shouldn't even be considered a thing compared to them.

One last example because halftime is another taboo mod. I don't care if you spent 60 hours playing and fcing image material with 98% acc and hd when someone else has a 95% hr fc. Your hd score ISN'T as good no matter what your actual score says.
I won't lie, I don't disagree. It's obvious the score system right now is very flawed, e.g. like you said HD is nothing compared to HR, DT is some tough stuff whereas FL is just spam retry until you memorize, and overall the system's a mess. PP right now is a much better system by far and when it comes to actually comparing scores and plays, the amount of pp given is a much better way to go. I worry more about how the rest of the community would react to this kind of change, for example a person who got #1 on a song with HDFL topping HDHR and DT scores by spamming it for hours won't suddenly like to hear they moved to #638 or... something. I dunno, but point is, there's people who spend hours trying to get top scores, not to get #638.

I think of this from an outsider's perspective, I myself agree that performance > effort and that's why I support pp as a scoring system. If anything, the problem is just avoiding making people mad, since nobody likes change.

I've thought about what you said and that made me think of a more of a compromise of an idea: if this pp scoring system gets implemented, then when it goes live, all top 50s and replays based on the old scoring system are archived somewhere else, like on the site, ingame in a separate tab (like Global Ranking: old or something), or just somewhere where you can still see it, but you can't submit score anymore to that system. In other words, if someone comes around and SS's Big Black with HD, rrtyui will still be #1 on the old scoring system because it won't submit there (though they might of course, be #1 in pp).

Either way this kind of system may not be quite ready to be implemented, as the pp system is still improving especially on gamemodes other than standard, but I would like to see this replace our scoring system at some time in the future.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
Updated the title to specifically call for the scoring system to change in standard mode only, at least for now.
Kaoru
Have some stars, I'd like to see this implemented as the main scoring metric. It would finally allow us to supercede our old best ranks on a map with better mods

Plus I think that it would be easier to find impressive replays.

My only problem with this is that it might be hard to implement.
xasuma
I talk for myself here and its just my opinion on it.
I don't want to be tied to the pp system that much to be honest. I think mainly because this would allow you to miss more often with less consequences (but at a higher difficulty, yes I know). For example:

I play 'x' song with no mod, get FC with 1000x combo. , and get no pp from it.
I play 'x' song with DT, get 600x combo, with 3 misses, and get 5 pp from it.

In my eyes, this would be annoying. As it would diminish a full combo, by making a non full combo potentially be much higher in rank. (I understand the difficulty would be a lot higher with dt), Its just the fact that a score wouldn't need to be as "perfect" as it needs to be now.

In addition to that, top 50 rank means nothing to be honest. Your real ranking is already measured by the pp system. The top 50 rank is more of a honoring feeling rather than a skill measurer to begin with in my opinion . (You can look at any easy difficulty top 50 to realize this)

And, again, to me , I like that not everything is tied to the pp system. Besides it is more straight forward with scores, because in the end, no one will argue that someone is first on a song if they have the highest score, whether someone could argue that the pp system is inaccurate in some instances (which I am not saying it is, however I don't think its 100% perfect and that would be seemly impossible to accomplish) , and say that 'x' song isn't that hard or blabla with 'this' or 'that' mod.

That is why I don't particularly like the idea.
Notice how I emphasize that this is My opinion , you are all free to think the exact opposite about it for all anyone cares.

Edit: And we will probably turn to the double scoring as mentioned earlier. See it here t/218559
Tom94

Kyou-kun wrote:

2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.

3. Any scores which were set in the past which didn't beat their highest score with the current system, but would have with the proposed system, obviously wouldn't be counted. This could cause a lot of issues with players asking that some of their scores be placed into the leaderboard because of the fact that the only reason they currently are not is because they were set before the system was changed.
Those two are actually very big concerns in my opinion. Whenever the algorithm would be updated there would also get even more scores into the top50 which do not have a replay.

I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply