Those two are actually very big concerns in my opinion. Whenever the algorithm would be updated there would also get even more scores into the top50 which do not have a replay.Kyou-kun wrote:
2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.
3. Any scores which were set in the past which didn't beat their highest score with the current system, but would have with the proposed system, obviously wouldn't be counted. This could cause a lot of issues with players asking that some of their scores be placed into the leaderboard because of the fact that the only reason they currently are not is because they were set before the system was changed.
If a 1000 combo nomod is worth less pp than a 600 combo DT, it means that DT is probably a better score, thus it should rank higher. Why should a score have to be "perfect"? I guarantee that on any map where a 600 combo DT would beat a 1000 combo nomod, the player who did the 600 combo DT could probably also do the 1000 combo nomod, and much more easily at that.xasuma wrote:
I talk for myself here and its just my opinion on it.
I don't want to be tied to the pp system that much to be honest. I think mainly because this would allow you to miss more often with less consequences (but at a higher difficulty, yes I know). For example:
I play 'x' song with no mod, get FC with 1000x combo. , and get no pp from it.
I play 'x' song with DT, get 600x combo, with 3 misses, and get 5 pp from it.
In my eyes, this would be annoying. As it would diminish a full combo, by making a non full combo potentially be much higher in rank. (I understand the difficulty would be a lot higher with dt), Its just the fact that a score wouldn't need to be as "perfect" as it needs to be now.
Why should you be "honored" if your scores suck? Not to be harsh, but it doesn't seem reasonable. You think nobody argues about first places with the current score system? That's just dead wrong. Almost nobody considers a FL or HDHR to be the "true" #1 when it's ahead of a DT FC. People already argue that the score system is far more inaccurate than the pp system ever was.xasuma wrote:
In addition to that, top 50 rank means nothing to be honest. Your real ranking is already measured by the pp system. The top 50 rank is more of a honoring feeling rather than a skill measurer to begin with in my opinion . (You can look at any easy difficulty top 50 to realize this)
And, again, to me , I like that not everything is tied to the pp system. Besides it is more straight forward with scores, because in the end, no one will argue that someone is first on a song if they have the highest score, whether someone could argue that the pp system is inaccurate in some instances (which I am not saying it is, however I don't think its 100% perfect and that would be seemly impossible to accomplish) , and say that 'x' song isn't that hard or blabla with 'this' or 'that' mod.
Why would you lose motivation because of a more accurate ranking system? As a "mid-tier" player myself, I would be more motivated to see my scores get high ranks, since I know they actually mean something.Bauxe wrote:
I think a lot of mid tier players would lose motivation if something like this was introduced. I don't really like the idea at all.
By mid-tier, I'm not talking top few thousand. I mean the range from maybe 5k to 50k. Getting a top 50 score will seem impossible to them.Kyou-kun wrote:
Why would you lose motivation because of a more accurate ranking system? As a "mid-tier" player myself, I would be more motivated to see my scores get high ranks, since I know they actually mean something.Bauxe wrote:
I think a lot of mid tier players would lose motivation if something like this was introduced. I don't really like the idea at all.
The main reason is that I think the current scoring system is more fun. Some examples: There are more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy. Also you don't need to restart a map every time you get some 100s at the start if you want to get into the rankings.Kyou-kun wrote:
Can you offer reasons for why you wouldn't like it? Do you think the pp system is inaccurate, or perhaps the current score system is more accurate? If so, why?
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...Drezi wrote:
Why should anyone hold ranks they clearly don't deserve? This ain't charity. They can aim for country ranks.
If they set the 50 best scores on the map, then yes, they should. That's sort of the point of an accurate, skill-based ranking system.Bauxe wrote:
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...
Why should there be more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy? Those are the skills that deserve high ranks, and currently, they often get low ones instead. As for the 100s at the start not mattering as much: Do you really think that makes sense? That a lower accuracy score with the same mods and combo often beats a higher accuracy score because of that?Ziggo wrote:
The main reason is that I think the current scoring system is more fun. Some examples: There are more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy. Also you don't need to restart a map every time you get some 100s at the start if you want to get into the rankings.
Yes, I mentioned this. Why would a consistent but flawed scoring system be better than an evolving but accurate one?Ziggo wrote:
The second point is, that changes in the pp-system would change the scoring system every time. This would result in even less changes to the system. Also, I believe a consistent scoring system is better in general.
Well, if every top50 player achieved the best they are capable of on every map, why should others take their place? It's not like top players care about hards and below anyway as far as I know.Bauxe wrote:
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...
Flashlight already gives bonus pp, and not an insignificant amount.VioletMaid wrote:
this sounds unfair to flashlight
though i do hate flashlight
Well, guess we have different views about skill then. I think ranks like top HD or FL scores are well desevered.Kyou-kun wrote:
Why should there be more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy? Those are the skills that deserve high ranks, and currently, they often get low ones instead.
Yes, I do. Because you can easily retry over 100s at the start, so they should be way less important than 100s later on.Kyou-kun wrote:
As for the 100s at the start not mattering as much: Do you really think that makes sense? That a lower accuracy score with the same mods and combo often beats a higher accuracy score because of that?
Not sure if serious.dennischan wrote:
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
If you're not going super fast or producing scores with godlike accuracy/aim your score isn't good (relatively) and hence should not be rewarded with a spot in the leader boards.Ziggo wrote:
The main reason is that I think the current scoring system is more fun. Some examples: There are more ways to get a good rank besides going super fast or having godlike accuracy. Also you don't need to restart a map every time you get some 100s at the start if you want to get into the rankings.Kyou-kun wrote:
Can you offer reasons for why you wouldn't like it? Do you think the pp system is inaccurate, or perhaps the current score system is more accurate? If so, why?
The second point is, that changes in the pp-system would change the scoring system every time. This would result in even less changes to the system. Also, I believe a consistent scoring system is better in general.
It sounds to me like you don't understand how pp works. It does consider every hit object in the map, and calculates the beatmap's difficulty based on the average and maximum strain of your aim, speed, and accuracy. Sometimes this can cause inaccurate calculations, but those are pretty much always only inaccurate for the overall ranking system, and don't really affect individual leaderboards. Yes, Koigokoro is overrated in terms of pp, but each individual score on the map can be placed very accurately. In fact, I think pp works better as a scoring system than as a ranking system.dennischan wrote:
pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.
I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.
maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.
ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
What about getting 95% FC with Flashlight is more skillful than 90% FC (or even less than FC) with DT on FREEDOM DiVE? Do you really think those two scores are even comparable? One is doable by a few players if they put enough time into the game; the other is impossible for any player at the current time, no matter how much time they put into the game. pp already considers how much DT increases difficulty by recalculating, so DT gives larger bonuses to difficult maps (as it should), where Flashlight's bonus is static (as it should be).Ziggo wrote:
Well, guess we have different views about skill then. I think ranks like top HD or FL scores are well desevered.
So because those 100s are easier to fix, you think it shouldn't matter as much? What's the reasoning behind that? All the hit circles have the same judgment, and ignoring variations in speed, it's equally easy to get a 100 on all of them.Ziggo wrote:
Yes, I do. Because you can easily retry over 100s at the start, so they should be way less important than 100s later on.Kyou-kun wrote:
As for the 100s at the start not mattering as much: Do you really think that makes sense? That a lower accuracy score with the same mods and combo often beats a higher accuracy score because of that?
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :pCalignoBot wrote:
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.Fudgyking wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Kyou-kun wrote:
But it's not perfect. It's flawed. You also don't seem to have read the third post in this thread.
On an insane map, 1x100 makes a difference with pp, so it's as precise as it needs to be.
Who looks at their score while playing?? It's just a meaningless large number.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game.
1. There are plenty of ways that pp could be shown in-game while playing. I think the most reasonable way to implement this would be to have a "descending" score method; that is, you start with the max pp possible for the map, and it goes down as you make mistakes. I already proposed this for accuracy a long time ago in this forum, but it never got anywhere.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
lets take into account you cant.. and will never see your PP on the play in game while playing... for many reasons such as it just feeling crappy mechanically, i.e the first 10% of the map or so you wont see any pay off for hitting those circles at all, and it's not every single note that will increase this 'in game pp score' so the gameplay feels disconnected from scoring, especially considering most plays arent going to be worth much pp anyway compared to the players "best" plays so it will just be demoralizing in game. And because the way PP is calculated.. and because unranked maps do exist.. etc..
4. Why would the number at the top right have to continue to exist in the game? In my opinion, it just adds clutter. Even if score were to remain the scoring method, it would still be reasonable if that number were removed.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
That aside, if we keep the way the game works right now and have score used in game [which we will], just not for anything but measuring your individual circle clicks, you're playing the map and there's this arbitrary number on the top right called "Score" while on the left the scoreboard just has combo and PP. That kind of disconnect doesn't really promote competition but just obfuscates it. Why even show your play underneath the scoreboard in-game if it's just going to show your score/combo compared to their pp/combo, how would you even climb onto the scoreboard whilst playing since PP isnt even calculated til the end?
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
And on easy-normals its going to be rather silly to just see something like "38 pp" repeated 50 times on 2 different maps that might have a very different max combo like 300 vs 1000 but they were worth the same PP and everyone SS'd it so whose to say what's different about playing them?
6. Even with DT being worth a little bit more, it's still imbalanced in my opinion. You don't even need close to a full combo on some maps to get really high pp on them with DT because of how the pp system recalculates map difficulty based on mods. DT doesn't affect slow maps as much as it does fast ones, so a flat bonus could never work well for a scoring system.Bassist Vinyl wrote:
If anything, just get rid of HD HR getting a decimal advantage over DT in score multiplier, and get rid of Half Time scores showing up entirely, and scoreboards are perfect the way they are imo.
7. He severed the association between pp and score rank in specific, because he recognized how little score matters when considering actual skill. If the leaderboards did represent actual skill, I don't think there would be any problem with connecting them to the ranking system.]Bassist Vinyl wrote:
On a final note, Peppy severed the association between PP and actual rank on maps with ppv2 came out, i dont think he'd link them again.
well except it wouldnt unless they had the exact same star rating.Kyou-kun wrote:
5. I don't get what you mean by the "different max combo like 300 vs 1000", as a combo difference that drastic would clearly result in a difference in pp. I already told you that the highest score will get the higher rank in situations where pp is equal.
diff. max combos gave diff. score which gave a better idea of the map, showing only pp says nothing about the map really.Kyou-kun wrote:
So you're talking about different maps? I still don't get your point. Why would it matter if there were multiple different maps where several scores are worth 38 pp?
Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
All those FL scores dissapearing out of the Ranking. I think a lot of tears would fall.Drezi wrote:
I don't understand why people are against this idea. It's just a matter of disliking change I guess, being attached to legacy methods.
How is having a same rank or point a problem when they performed the same?Bassist Vinyl wrote:
Because Score is, in effect, a "perfect" way to compare scores and more precise [maps can get up to 1.5bil score, pp doesnt really go above 500. less room for error on the scoreboard this way.] since otherwise there will be like 5 sets of the same amount of pp on the scoreboard for your average full dthd/hdhr scoreboard.Fudgyking wrote:
Can someone explain to me why the overall pp-based ranking is accepted and considered accurate by the majority of players but at the same time, the score-based map rankings are still considered to be the appropriate way of sorting performances on each map?
How can someone think that global rankings and map rankings should use a different method? How does that even make sense?
How come the overall rankings do not use score, if it's supposedly more "honorific" and "accurate" than pp on each individual map?
Is there something obvious I overlooked which makes the situation more complicated that I made it seem?
Also there's no obfuscation. People will know exactly how they got on the scoreboards because the way score is calculated is perfectly common knowledge and makes for absolute accuracy and is better for comparison purposes.
And it's always been that way.
Where did I indicate that I was responding to anything in this thread outside the overall idea of it?xasuma wrote:
That is not the point. I think that will be implemented regardless soon-ish (I linked it in an earlier page). So you don't have to lose pp for a 'better' score anymore. But that is not what the discussion is about here. :pCalignoBot wrote:
I like this idea enough to match your stars.
Hope this gets included simply because it pissed me off how I turned an FC-5 into an FC but still lost about 10pp once because my accuracy was slightly lower.
Im gonna remain neutral for the rest of this thread I think :B
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
HD HR isn't even in the same plane of existence as DT in terms of PP. xasuma is absolutely right.Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
No, you are actually wrong. I have tested them. HD doesn't bother me , therefore I can achieve a lot of scores with the same accuracy as no mod. And the pp gain is none. OK maybe 0.xx but that could be something else for all we know .Drezi wrote:
So you're saying the current global player ranking system is broken? Well, both HD and HR are very rewarding if you can play them with comparable acc, maybe the acc slope is a bit too steep but that is a different issue to debate, not one connected to this idea.xasuma wrote:
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.pielak wrote:
Posting on Kyou-kun's behalf:
"If Hidden only gave a 0.01% bonus or something to that extent, as you so claim, then why would -Hakase-'s 98.54% (301 pp) Hidden score on this be worth more pp than mugio3's 100% nomod (287 pp) score? The reason is because it gives a percentage bonus based on the aim difficulty of the map, and that map happens to have a high aim difficulty. On a map with a low aim difficulty, the bonus will be very small and insignificant, and since you probably aren't playing those kinds of maps, you likely never noticed."
You didn't refute any of my points, though. Yes, score is inaccurate, but there is no reason to replace it. If you can sort both by score and by pp both sides win.Kyou-kun wrote:
How often is the algorithm updated in a way which would affect beatmap leaderboards significantly? While it's a problem, I don't see it to be a significant enough one to warrant the use of such an inaccurate system.
Bauxe wrote:
You make it sound like the same 50 people should have rank 1 to 50 on every map...
:^)Kyou-kun wrote:
There's people who actually don't think this way. These are usually Flashlight players, or proponents of Flashlight mod weighting remaining the same. It's really quite surprising to me that some people don't think that players with more skill deserve better ranks.BRBP wrote:
They're less skilled, they don't deserve to be in the ranking list.
-Kyou
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the end.Tom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
I don't think they mind their per-map ranks much, when global rank - which I think is more important, especially for non top-tier players - changes anyway if there are changes made to PP.Tom94 wrote:
Your opinion obviously will vary but keep in mind, that most players in this game are casuals who - as it seems to me - prefer their ranks to not randomly change.
Can you give an example of a score which is worth less than it should be with the current system? In particular, give me an example of one using the Hidden mod, if you can.xasuma wrote:
You are absolutely right. But that is the exact reason why I said HD will cease to be used by a lot of people. It would only be significant enough for people to bother on very difficult maps. What about the other 90% of not very difficult aim maps?.
If it only affects a fraction of all beat maps, then it can't be as accurate as you claim it to be. Besides, If I can't notice it, then why would anyone below my rank ever notice it?
What this really is, is an ideal ranking for really high rank players on really hard maps. Good luck measuring pp accurately on 2-3 star maps.
qftDrezi wrote:
Tbh it's not all that uncommon and feels pretty bad losing PP because I improve a 'sliderbreak near the end' score with worse accuracy, or I overwrite a better acc score with a worse one, only because I had more 100s at the beginning of the last one, and got all 300s at the endTom94 wrote:
The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist
Because your points are mainly opinions which you and I disagree on.Tom94 wrote:
You didn't refute any of my points, though
Don't understand this post at all.BRBP wrote:
Drezi wrote:
going from nomod -> DT is the same level of difficulty increase as going from HT -> nomod, and noone seems to think that HT plays with mods are undervalued compared to nomod plays.
I mentioned that they didn't use HR because I personally can't play FLHD at all, There are some SS DTHD and better accuracy DTHR scores on the map so I think they could do better if they really did memorize the map. But using a score from 2 years ago isn't totally fair I guess he did nothing wrong if we judge by ppv1.[ Tao ] wrote:
It's a bad example: FL players don't use HR because it made the map harder to memorize (FL needs advanced reflexes and memorization, especially for maps who have more than 300 combos, and HR made it even more harder) and not necessarily because they have bad acuracy. I didn't tried the map though, but if it was that easy, you would see some full mods scores.
And advanced FL players can DTHRFL Easy/Normal maps, quite easily.
I also think the score system is not perfect but as Kingkevin30 said I think it would be better to have seperate leaderboards, it's too late now for a major change like this. But good idea though.
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.xasuma wrote:
Proof please.Drezi wrote:
HD gives a bonus to your aim (and a tiny bit to acc), so jumpy maps should provide a noticable pp gain if you HD them with similar acc.
And it is related, because a pp based score board will lead to pp searching people, which will eventually lead them into dt and our of the other mods.
And I do play a lot of dt myself, I'm not saying this because I hate on the mod at all. It just would not be fair to many HD, FL, HR plays.
:B
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?jesus1412 wrote:
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
I didn't even read past this post, but I think you forgot that DT affects accuracy and aim as well as speed. As far as I can tell, HR predominantly affects accuracy.xasuma wrote:
If this were implemented HD mod would probably cease to be used for a lot of people. As of now hd is used in conjuction with other mods to give a score boost , however the pp gain from it is close to none (might even be none idk).
This could be argued with HR as well, although not as much as hd. Same for FL. And it would in a way monopolize DT (being the only mod that truly boosts your pp gain by a lot).
Having said that, the balance between accuracy, aim and speed would be broken. Favoring speed over the other two.
Screw staying neutral in this thread
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.CalignoBot wrote:
If you do not understand how increasing both the BPM and OD of a map affects aim and accuracy respectively, then you shouldn't be talking about it like you do.xasuma wrote:
Well it is primarily speed over the other two.
If you're talking about DT being monopolized, then my entire point is that it's not an issue because DT is significantly harder than HR to get good scores with. If you're talking about something else, then state it again.xasuma wrote:
CalignoBot wrote:
Oh I understand. No need to school me on map difficulty.
And instead of attacking me, be objective and work on solving the issue.
If you really need to set me straight send me a pm. These little 1v1 arguments aren't helping the thread. And again, if you would have read everything, you would have noticed most people who were posting here thought having them side by side would be a reasonable idea.
Read the last post on last page, much more informative than this little argument..
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?dennischan wrote:
1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-dennischan wrote:
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
Did you even read the whole damn post? I meant that at this moment it is not suitable to replace score with pp, and I'm for both of them coexisting. What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps, it should not be used as a scoring system since nobody knows how much HIDDEN FAULTS there is in the pp system. For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.Drezi wrote:
And how exactly does the current score system do a better job at evaluating these aspects?dennischan wrote:
1. There is no pattern recognization.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
You go on about this and that being underrated, which is a problem when comparing scores between different maps, for which pp is already being used so I don't see your point... When comparing scores on the same damn map it doesn't matter if the map is underrated in absolute value compared to other maps at all, every score on that given map is treated the same way, and their relative order is prefectly fine and more representative than score, how is that not obvious.FL1,12 HD1,06 -.-dennischan wrote:
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map.
Kaeru wrote:
To whoever said HD doesn't help with pp, that's complete nonsense. HD can give a ton of pp. A lot of my top plays were worth almost nothing before I put HD on (for example, this map).
I still don't think pp should replace score. I am for the idea of replacing global scores with ones that are worth more performance points (I hate it when I set a record that's worth more pp but it doesn't get counted because my score isn't as high). I just don't feel like every mod is weighted fairly in every instance. In fact, I feel that it's impossible for the system to be so perfect that it isn't possible to set a more impressive score worth less pp. Score is a flawed system too, but it's the best system we have.
The problem with the later notes being weighted heavier (getting 100s near the end of the song hurts your score more) can be easily fixed by slightly altering the way score is calculated (though it would have to be possible to change old scores too or this would be pointless).
I don't know about other people here, but I don't want to see 85% DT scores in the top 50 on maps. I don't care how hard it is to play a song with DT.. you can just mash your way through most maps. HR takes a lot more skill than people give it credit for, and it is currently weighted far too little in my opinion. I don't even want to get into FL.. that's a whole different story in itself. I am totally against abandoning the old score system. The idea is just ridiculous.
The "standards" for score have been set a long while back, and completely messing them up now (not to mention the leader boards) is unfair to everyone.
Also, Kyou-kun calls him/herself a "mid-tier" player at rank 180..? Are you so incredibly egotistical that you fail to see that you're biased towards this idea because of how high your rank is? I don't mean that as a personal attack, but you are in the top 0.1% of everyone that plays this game.
It's already being used as a means of comparing people's performances which are based on different maps.dennischan wrote:
What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps
I don't even... That's what the score system does.. First of all it considers your combo, if it's not near full your score is pretty much irrelevant automatically, and then it considers accuracy, but your accuracy towards the end matters 100x more than the rest, so plenty times a worse acc score ranks higher than a higher acc one with the same mods and combo.. PP is based on these stats too, but considers a lot more factors making it a lot more representative, how can you even argue against this??dennischan wrote:
For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.
Yeah, what else would DT be considered when it changes the map to something which could have been mapped nomod on an other song of the same BPM?dennischan wrote:
Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple
Fair points indeed. I'll agree that we should wait until the big issues (that are mentioned) are fixed before this is implemented for sure.dennischan wrote:
Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.
1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.
2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.
3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program
4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.
I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Your understanding of the bonus from hidden is beyond flawed. If HD gave more than it currently did it would be more rewarding relative to it's difficulty than DT. Maybe 20 pp isn't much in the big picture but for a single score that's A LOT of pp.xasuma wrote:
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?jesus1412 wrote:
wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
He is right about the PP system's flaws, but he is not right about this having any effect on it being applied as a per-map ranking system instead of score, which does a lot worse job at evaluating different mods and performances. These flaws should have only affected it being applied as a global ranking system that compares performances between different maps, but that has already happened anyway.jesus1412 wrote:
I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
I agree with this.Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
Yeah thissimplyparanoid wrote:
I agree with this.Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
^I feel like this is a much, much better idea.Tom94 wrote:
I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.nocipher wrote:
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.
Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Basically both of you have the same opinion : current score system sucks, thus score system needs to be changed (so that highest score/ best score means higher pp) but you are just trying to be offensivejesus1412 wrote:
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.nocipher wrote:
Goodwork.
So accuracy is the most important stat with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score.
So combo is by far the most important with pp (essentially the same as the scoring system now)?TheVileOne wrote:
If you get a few misses, might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less.
So it's not accuracy or combo, but difficulty that is the most important factor with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Why would you in the first place? Unless you're trying to abuse the current flaws in the scoring system so you can get an undeserved rank.TheVileOne wrote:
Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
That's sort of the point of this feature request."TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
TheVileOne wrote:
Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?NixXSkate wrote:
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps. You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed. Part of the current scoring system's beauty is that people can rank higher with sheer determination with the hidden mods, the only problem is that it can be exploited because LIKE ppv2, the FL and HD scoring is totally inaccurate and mostly a percentage increase rather than being determined by the map itself. For a system to replace this one, it would have to give fair reward to both physical and mental skill, but that may ruin the magic of what ppv2 is, raw physical skill.Drezi wrote:
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?
It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.
You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.NixXSkate wrote:
You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.NixXSkate wrote:
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.NixXSkate wrote:
Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.Drezi wrote:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.