Might want to take this discussion here: t/181850
We most likely won't move forward with this before that thread is better figured out.
We most likely won't move forward with this before that thread is better figured out.
Basically both of you have the same opinion : current score system sucks, thus score system needs to be changed (so that highest score/ best score means higher pp) but you are just trying to be offensivejesus1412 wrote:
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.nocipher wrote:
Goodwork.
So accuracy is the most important stat with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score.
So combo is by far the most important with pp (essentially the same as the scoring system now)?TheVileOne wrote:
If you get a few misses, might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less.
So it's not accuracy or combo, but difficulty that is the most important factor with pp?TheVileOne wrote:
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Why would you in the first place? Unless you're trying to abuse the current flaws in the scoring system so you can get an undeserved rank.TheVileOne wrote:
Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
That's sort of the point of this feature request."TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
TheVileOne wrote:
Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?NixXSkate wrote:
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps. You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed. Part of the current scoring system's beauty is that people can rank higher with sheer determination with the hidden mods, the only problem is that it can be exploited because LIKE ppv2, the FL and HD scoring is totally inaccurate and mostly a percentage increase rather than being determined by the map itself. For a system to replace this one, it would have to give fair reward to both physical and mental skill, but that may ruin the magic of what ppv2 is, raw physical skill.Drezi wrote:
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?
It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.
You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.NixXSkate wrote:
You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.NixXSkate wrote:
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.NixXSkate wrote:
Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.Drezi wrote:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
Either that, or you could display the PP you'd recieve if the score was submitted at that time without finishing the song. I know that wouldn't be possible normally, but I think the system could still evaluate it the same way based on combo, number of 300s etc out of the total of the map.DT-sama wrote:
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses.TheVileOne wrote:
Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
I'm talking about being able to complete the map with a good score.BRBP wrote:
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.CalignoBot wrote:
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.PP is actually updated quite regularly and not as consistent as score is, considering the scoring algorithm is updated practically never. It's indeed not much of an issue, but it can make scoreboards fluctuate too much and rankings would become less solid and therefore less reliable because the score you set today might change over the course of time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.It would also have a major impact on gameplay. Right now, as you play the song you can watch your score increase and it can be a satisfying thing to see. Once you get to the point where overall performance starts playing a significant role, you'll get bothered a lot by breaking combos and seeing your shitty accuracy after going ham with 100's on a long stream. Seeing those is already demotivating, and to many of us a reason to hit the retry button for a better attempt right away. Imagining seeing the possible max pp all the time and the only thing it will do is decrease, and you'll constantly have the shitty feeling of not being able to get the highest possible amount of pp when you actually played the song quite well.
This by a long shot. Several people fail to understand how hard FL actually is especially at a high BPM with DT. Sorry to say this Drezi but I highly disagree with you. DT+FL should give a lot more pp then HD+DT.NixXSkate wrote:
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.Drezi wrote:
I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.
But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.
I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises.
I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.I...really REALLY like this idea. It would make it so that it goes in the order of HD>HR>FL>DT instead of HD=HR>FL=DT. It makes no sense to me that HD is worth the same score multiplier as HR. HR physically changes the map which makes it legitimately more difficult. The CS, AR, OD and HP all multilplies by 1.4 when HR mod is enabled while HD mod remains unchanged. Only real difference with HD is that now you have to aim each note a little bit better since each note becomes invisible after a while. Changing HD multiplier down to 1.03x or 1.04x would make a lot more sense to me while HR should remain unchanged. As for FL, I believe that it should NOT beat DT however it should definitely beat HD (by itself) and HR (by itself). I believe that changing FL to 1.09x or 1.10x would make more sense to me. This will make it so that HD+HR would be worth just slightly more then FL alone (if acc is good enough) and make it so that DT by itself beats HD+HR (if acc is good enough). This would also make it so that HD+DT+HR would be worth just slightly more then HD+DT+FL which is good seeing that HR makes everything harder to time. This would balance out the scoring system a lot better in my opinion.
Will support if per-mod high scores and replays are implemented, to avoid top50 replay problems upon changes to the system, and allow people to sift through potentially great scores not being rewarded as they should, and bring them to attention.Tom94 wrote:
There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist,
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.Ace3DF wrote:
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.CalignoBot wrote:
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.Ace3DF wrote:
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
So apparently constant variation for a more accurate and precise system is worse than an old system that sucks but never changes. Imagine if all the scientists and inventors of the world thought that way.Kaeru wrote:
Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
That's not how it works, and even if it was, it isn't really relevant to my request.Ace3DF wrote:
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Yes.Ace3DF wrote:
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Ace3DF wrote:
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
I was actually referring to the score ranking system when I said "current scoring system", not the ppv2 system.Kaeru wrote:
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.CalignoBot wrote:
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
^Ziggo wrote:
That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.Drezi wrote:
oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
Yeah, that's what you do with pp aswell, or do we need to multiply it by 1,000,000 to make it seem 'high'?pied wrote:
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score.
That's exactly how pp works...pied wrote:
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.Drezi wrote:
oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.