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Rank harder maps
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Should ET maps (like Thanatos, Little Hearts, unlimited spark) be allowed for ranking?
Total votes: 293
I WON'T RANK IT UNTIL IT WILL BE KEYSOUNDED ;_;PyaKura wrote:
Rank End Time nao
NOMINAET MOAR O!M BATS NAO
Udieheoeeidwobihsoioeibrodhd ;_;
y u b so mean
(Alrite nvm just read your pm)
(@Agka : this might mean no soft-hitnormal HA)
y u b so mean
(Alrite nvm just read your pm)
(@Agka : this might mean no soft-hitnormal HA)
Roxas wrote:
That diff was overmapped, and other BATs agree with me.
You know, I've been wondering for a long time, why something being overmapped suddenly disqualifies it from being rankable. There's nothing saying that overmapped difficulties cannot be fun, nor is there anything preventing them from being considered perfectly acceptable and playable by good players.
I've played MANY maps that are very clearly overmapped; some of them are very good, and some of them are absolutely cringeworthy. I would say it's much harder to create a good overmapped chart, but I would never say that being overmapped automatically disqualifies a map from being well put together.
Here's a question.Roxas wrote:
About Workaholic, I clearly said the reason to Agka. That diff was overmapped, and other BATs agree with me. I told him he could adjust the overmapped parts but at the end he removed Ghost diff (he thought it would be too hard for osu!mania community).
About ranking ET maps: we can freely rank them if they have a good spread and they're not overmapped, we might just say "omg so hard" but that doesn't mean it's not rankable.
What if that overmapped diff can easily be tackled/pass by those advanced/ET players? Doesn't it make them rankable for it?
or
Maybe, you could mean that this one overmapped diff must have at least 1-2 players for testplay and passed or SS it so that the whole mapset + overmapped diff can be rankable, is it?
Still, some overmapped charts are way consuming your stamina in terms of note density and weird patterns that you couldn't think of. But either way, it's pretty much makes sense to me as it provides advanced/ET players getting interested on playing them.Bobbias wrote:
You know, I've been wondering for a long time, why something being overmapped suddenly disqualifies it from being rankable. There's nothing saying that overmapped difficulties cannot be fun, nor is there anything preventing them from being considered perfectly acceptable and playable by good players.
I've played MANY maps that are very clearly overmapped; some of them are very good, and some of them are absolutely cringeworthy. I would say it's much harder to create a good overmapped chart, but I would never say that being overmapped automatically disqualifies a map from being well put together.
Topic Starter
Bobbias wrote:
You know, I've been wondering for a long time, why something being overmapped suddenly disqualifies it from being rankable. There's nothing saying that overmapped difficulties cannot be fun, nor is there anything preventing them from being considered perfectly acceptable and playable by good players
This RC is mostly for std. Do you guys actually know how many people are capable of playing "overmapped" maps without having any troubles ? Sure they aren't a lot, but they aren't few either. As long as this so-called overmapping makes sense, I don't have any problem with it.
Yeah, "clever" overmapping should be okay to rank, even if guys like me can't clear it.
Basically, everyone is saying is the term "overmapped" is extremely subjective and convoluted. Some more concrete criteria for higher level maps should be discussed to avoid disputes and clashing views on this matter in the future.
An example of what I mean is IN2K6. Let's be honest BATs, if that map wasn't key-sounded to clearly dictate what sound every note was associated with, it would of been pushed aside with the label "overmapped" with no further explanation.
If you define "overmapped" as a section that has more notes than sounds, then right here we already stumble into problems. Should musical chords be considered a note? Or can they be represented as chords too? Should they equal the exact amount of notes as the musical chord? How could the average mapper possibly tell? Then drums come in, then baseline comes in, then superposing melody comes in, then SE comes in and before we know it, we can "rightfully" liter a map with all-press chords all over the place.
Does this result is a good map? Of course it doesn't, all-presses all over the completely removes the sense of musicality from the map.
So should a map be considered "overmapped" when there's so much notes one cannot properly get a matching feel of the music from it? But here too we encounter subjective problems. The average players look at overjoy maps as spam, they read it as dense spam, they try to play it by spamming. If the overjoy players didn't exist, they'd would wholeheartedly believe the map IS spam, devoid of any musical sense matching the music in question.
But the overjoy players sees rhythm and musicality in those maps just fine, it's a completely subjective issue.
I believe we should instead break down why we don't want so called "overmapped" maps ranked, and use the deconstructed reasons to form more concrete rules on this matter.
An example of what I mean is IN2K6. Let's be honest BATs, if that map wasn't key-sounded to clearly dictate what sound every note was associated with, it would of been pushed aside with the label "overmapped" with no further explanation.
If you define "overmapped" as a section that has more notes than sounds, then right here we already stumble into problems. Should musical chords be considered a note? Or can they be represented as chords too? Should they equal the exact amount of notes as the musical chord? How could the average mapper possibly tell? Then drums come in, then baseline comes in, then superposing melody comes in, then SE comes in and before we know it, we can "rightfully" liter a map with all-press chords all over the place.
Does this result is a good map? Of course it doesn't, all-presses all over the completely removes the sense of musicality from the map.
So should a map be considered "overmapped" when there's so much notes one cannot properly get a matching feel of the music from it? But here too we encounter subjective problems. The average players look at overjoy maps as spam, they read it as dense spam, they try to play it by spamming. If the overjoy players didn't exist, they'd would wholeheartedly believe the map IS spam, devoid of any musical sense matching the music in question.
But the overjoy players sees rhythm and musicality in those maps just fine, it's a completely subjective issue.
I believe we should instead break down why we don't want so called "overmapped" maps ranked, and use the deconstructed reasons to form more concrete rules on this matter.
ThisDrace wrote:
Basically, everyone is saying is the term "overmapped" is extremely subjective and convoluted. Some more concrete criteria for higher level maps should be discussed to avoid disputes and clashing views on this matter in the future.
An example of what I mean is IN2K6. Let's be honest BATs, if that map wasn't key-sounded to clearly dictate what sound every note was associated with, it would of been pushed aside with the label "overmapped" with no further explanation.
If you define "overmapped" as a section that has more notes than sounds, then right here we already stumble into problems. Should musical chords be considered a note? Or can they be represented as chords too? Should they equal the exact amount of notes as the musical chord? How could the average mapper possibly tell? Then drums come in, then baseline comes in, then superposing melody comes in, then SE comes in and before we know it, we can "rightfully" liter a map with all-press chords all over the place.
Does this result is a good map? Of course it doesn't, all-presses all over the completely removes the sense of musicality from the map.
So should a map be considered "overmapped" when there's so much notes one cannot properly get a matching feel of the music from it? But here too we encounter subjective problems. The average players look at overjoy maps as spam, they read it as dense spam, they try to play it by spamming. If the overjoy players didn't exist, they'd would wholeheartedly believe the map IS spam, devoid of any musical sense matching the music in question.
But the overjoy players sees rhythm and musicality in those maps just fine, it's a completely subjective issue.
I believe we should instead break down why we don't want so called "overmapped" maps ranked, and use the deconstructed reasons to form more concrete rules on this matter.
It's an osu! rule. Overmap = unrankable. I can't do anything, I'm not the one who creates rules... I mean, overmapping doesn't mean that the map is too hard for being played, but there are notes when there's no sound and you don't create it with hitsounds.Bobbias wrote:
You know, I've been wondering for a long time, why something being overmapped suddenly disqualifies it from being rankable. There's nothing saying that overmapped difficulties cannot be fun, nor is there anything preventing them from being considered perfectly acceptable and playable by good players.
I've played MANY maps that are very clearly overmapped; some of them are very good, and some of them are absolutely cringeworthy. I would say it's much harder to create a good overmapped chart, but I would never say that being overmapped automatically disqualifies a map from being well put together.
As I said above, it's a fact of game rules, not of difficulty.ishimaru94 wrote:
Here's a question.
What if that overmapped diff can easily be tackled/pass by those advanced/ET players? Doesn't it make them rankable for it?
Again, as above xDishimaru94 wrote:
Maybe, you could mean that this one overmapped diff must have at least 1-2 players for testplay and passed or SS it so that the whole mapset + overmapped diff can be rankable, is it?
It applies for mania too (asked confirming about this) and maybe in other game modes too.PyaKura wrote:
This RC is mostly for std. Do you guys actually know how many people are capable of playing "overmapped" maps without having any troubles ? Sure they aren't a lot, but they aren't few either. As long as this so-called overmapping makes sense, I don't have any problem with it.
I personally didn't check IN2K6, but if he create sounds with EVERY note (this means he's not putting silent hitsounds) it's fine aswell.Drace wrote:
Basically, everyone is saying is the term "overmapped" is extremely subjective and convoluted. Some more concrete criteria for higher level maps should be discussed to avoid disputes and clashing views on this matter in the future.
An example of what I mean is IN2K6. Let's be honest BATs, if that map wasn't key-sounded to clearly dictate what sound every note was associated with, it would of been pushed aside with the label "overmapped" with no further explanation.
I define "overmapped" or "overnoted" as a precise instant of the map where there's one or more note when there's no sound and you don't create a sound through hitsounds. And if you have a chord you can put 1, 2, 3, 4 notes in that chord, it's almost impossible to know how many notes there are in that chords because there doesn't exist sheets for every song. So, you can emphasize your chord, but it should fit. I mean that you can't have a piano song where, when there's a mid-power chord (2-3 notes apparently) you put 6 notes and when there's an high-power chord (4-5 notes apparently) you put only 3 notes, if you follow/there's only piano. There should be a good consistency/proportion. (Some terms like "mid-power" might be incorrect about music and piano, but I hope I explained well myself)Drace wrote:
If you define "overmapped" as a section that has more notes than sounds, then right here we already stumble into problems. Should musical chords be considered a note? Or can they be represented as chords too? Should they equal the exact amount of notes as the musical chord? How could the average mapper possibly tell? Then drums come in, then baseline comes in, then superposing melody comes in, then SE comes in and before we know it, we can "rightfully" liter a map with all-press chords all over the place.
Nah, it can't be considered like that, because as you said it's something subjective.Drace wrote:
So should a map be considered "overmapped" when there's so much notes one cannot properly get a matching feel of the music from it? But here too we encounter subjective problems. The average players look at overjoy maps as spam, they read it as dense spam, they try to play it by spamming. If the overjoy players didn't exist, they'd would wholeheartedly believe the map IS spam, devoid of any musical sense matching the music in question.
Game rules. osu! is created for following sounds and create other sounds with hitsounds.Drace wrote:
I believe we should instead break down why we don't want so called "overmapped" maps ranked, and use the deconstructed reasons to form more concrete rules on this matter.
And I believe o!m is kind of game about creating sound, not following itRoxas wrote:
Game rules. osu! is created for following sounds and create other sounds with hitsounds.
Roxas:
Just wondering, where is that rule saying that overmap is entirely forbidden?
Overmap and additive mapping is, for better or worse, common practice in osu!standard mapping and, while causing controversy at some points, has not been considered unrankable. Checking the osu!mania specifc ranking criteria I can't seem to find a rule specifically stating that overmapping causes a map to be unrankable.
Having that said, shouldn't intuitive and additive overmap be allowed?
Just wondering, where is that rule saying that overmap is entirely forbidden?
Overmap and additive mapping is, for better or worse, common practice in osu!standard mapping and, while causing controversy at some points, has not been considered unrankable. Checking the osu!mania specifc ranking criteria I can't seem to find a rule specifically stating that overmapping causes a map to be unrankable.
Having that said, shouldn't intuitive and additive overmap be allowed?
Well, I personally allow "intuitive overmap" as you call it in certain cases. With that I mean, for example, those 1/4 notes where there's a redundancy note (with really low volume too) or where, in a similar pattern before, there was the 1/4 note (with sound, obviously).
Topic Starter
This rule is for std right? If so, we should have CLEAR new rules on what overmapping means for mania. You can't simply translate rules from std into mania as they are completely different games.Roxas wrote:
It's an osu! rule. Overmap = unrankable. I can't do anything, I'm not the one who creates rules... I mean, overmapping doesn't mean that the map is too hard for being played, but there are notes when there's no sound and you don't create it with hitsounds.
Why?
Well, if we don't, every BAT can simply go and define overmapping the way he likes to...
I think Drace means you wouldn't have been able to hear all of the differences of all the instruments clearly, thus you would probably think not every note is mapped to an audible instrument and consider it overmapped.Roxas wrote:
I personally didn't check IN2K6, but if he create sounds with EVERY note (this means he's not putting silent hitsounds) it's fine aswell.
Well, it's not good if every BAT just makes up his own definition of 'overmapped'. I think we need clear mania specific rules about this like I explained earlier.Roxas wrote:
I define "overmapped" or "overnoted" as a precise instant of the map where there's one or more note when there's no sound and you don't create a sound through hitsounds. And if you have a chord you can put 1, 2, 3, 4 notes in that chord, it's almost impossible to know how many notes there are in that chords because there doesn't exist sheets for every song. So, you can emphasize your chord, but it should fit. I mean that you can't have a piano song where, when there's a mid-power chord (2-3 notes apparently) you put 6 notes and when there's an high-power chord (4-5 notes apparently) you put only 3 notes, if you follow/there's only piano. There should be a good consistency/proportion. (Some terms like "mid-power" might be incorrect about music and piano, but I hope I explained well myself)
Also I don't think many among us can hear the difference between a piano 3-chord and a 6+ chord.
For example, this is my definition of overmapped:
SPOILER
.I personally think chord size in mania maps should be representing exclamations or 'relative volume' in a way.
For example: a song section that uses mostly single notes to represent normal notes can use big chords to represent sudden drastic high volume sounds, but it doesn't feel right if that song suddenly uses 4-chords to represent silent/normal sounds.
A song section could also use 2 or even 3-chords to represent normal notes, in order to pump up the difficulty a bit. Then the mapper would have to create big 6-chords to represent big sounds and single notes/2-chords to represent more silent ones for example.
It doesn't 'feel' right when there's suddenly a big chord representing a more laid back sound. The other way around is a problem too ( a signle note representing a clash sound), but this is only in a specific section where the mapper decided to use 2-chords to represent normally audible notes for example
I also think a song section isn't respectably mapped when the map creates excessive additive rhythms as is the case in a lot of std maps.
Therefore, if a map section excessively violates one of those rules, I'd personally consider it 'overmapped'
For example: a song section that uses mostly single notes to represent normal notes can use big chords to represent sudden drastic high volume sounds, but it doesn't feel right if that song suddenly uses 4-chords to represent silent/normal sounds.
A song section could also use 2 or even 3-chords to represent normal notes, in order to pump up the difficulty a bit. Then the mapper would have to create big 6-chords to represent big sounds and single notes/2-chords to represent more silent ones for example.
It doesn't 'feel' right when there's suddenly a big chord representing a more laid back sound. The other way around is a problem too ( a signle note representing a clash sound), but this is only in a specific section where the mapper decided to use 2-chords to represent normally audible notes for example
I also think a song section isn't respectably mapped when the map creates excessive additive rhythms as is the case in a lot of std maps.
Therefore, if a map section excessively violates one of those rules, I'd personally consider it 'overmapped'
osu!mania doesn't follow sounds nearly as well as bms charts do, yet osu!mania proper harder diffs of a respectable technical mapper like Agka get denied.Roxas wrote:
osu! is created for following sounds and create other sounds with hitsounds. Well, I personally allow "intuitive overmap" as you call it in certain cases. With that I mean, for example, those 1/4 notes where there's a redundancy note (with really low volume too) or where, in a similar pattern before, there was the 1/4 note (with sound, obviously).
I've always felt the BATS allow 'additive hitsounds' kind of overmappings (which kind of destroys the map imo), but just don't want to allow hard maps. They make up excuses in order to call that map overmapped, just because they feel like it's too hard. Or hard maps automatically get linked with overmapped somehow, I'm not sure.
Either way, I hope you don't see this as an offense but maybe a way to rethink the definition of 'overmapped' in mania.
I agree with Xcrypt about the definition of "overmapping".
Lots of general rules weren't taken into account when o!m came out, I think it's time for us (aknowledgeable o!m community) to rework some of these. I'm willing (we are all willing) to discuss these, so what about we create a new thread made for RC discussion, talking about one problenatic RC at a time to avoid confusion, and submit a rule change/new rule once we've reached an agreement (and without straight denying them because someone of higher authority said it sucks so it must not be implemented even though they have no clue what they are talking about. I want to hear people's true opinions. Not some ready made ideas which aren't even true in the slightest to begin with.)
On a side note, care to explain what "technical mapping" is ? x_x
Lots of general rules weren't taken into account when o!m came out, I think it's time for us (aknowledgeable o!m community) to rework some of these. I'm willing (we are all willing) to discuss these, so what about we create a new thread made for RC discussion, talking about one problenatic RC at a time to avoid confusion, and submit a rule change/new rule once we've reached an agreement (and without straight denying them because someone of higher authority said it sucks so it must not be implemented even though they have no clue what they are talking about. I want to hear people's true opinions. Not some ready made ideas which aren't even true in the slightest to begin with.)
On a side note, care to explain what "technical mapping" is ? x_x
Topic Starter
I just meant it as in someone who spends a lot of time thinking about the structure of the map etc, not just throwing stuff in there because you like a certain pattern or because you feel like it.
Oh ok I thought you were referring to a certain mapping style or something (asked Specter as well lol). So basically mappers who know what they're doing.
Well, I said "I define" but I could freely say "We define" because it's a common definition in std, as you said. In fact, I agree with your definition too, Xcrypt. My definition is surely incomplete and I think we can discuss about these things in a new RC topic (ask Loctav for being more sure, I only THINK you can :/ )
And, again, we allow hard/ET/extralunatic maps as long as they fit. As you can see, there are some ET maps ranked, like Thunderbolt or Akasha, no BATs complained about them.
And, again, we allow hard/ET/extralunatic maps as long as they fit. As you can see, there are some ET maps ranked, like Thunderbolt or Akasha, no BATs complained about them.
Never happened this. This would be ridicolous.Xcrypt wrote:
They make up excuses in order to call that map overmapped, just because they feel like it's too hard.
Don't worry. I know you are not here for offending anyone, we are only discussing.Xcrypt wrote:
Either way, I hope you don't see this as an offense but maybe a way to rethink the definition of 'overmapped' in mania.
Topic Starter
Thanks for the reply.Roxas wrote:
I agree with your definition too, Xcrypt
If you agree with my definition, could you please give the ghost diff by agka another look? I've checked it in editor myself a couple times, all notes make sense to me. At 100% speed, there's a few notes that do not make sense to me because it is too hard for me to follow properly (those are the hardest two sections with fast big chords) but when I look at them at 50% speed I can clearly see that nearly every chord/note is mapped to a sound that makes sense.
If you disagree would be nice to know exactly why.
Yes that's true, some hard/ET maps are ranked, and I feel like it's going in the right direction, but I also feel like there's still a lot of huss fuss. A lot of good hard maps are denied as well, more than good hard maps are ranked. I also think that this also gave the community like a feeling that they shouldn't bother even trying to rank harder maps because 95% of the time it will get denied anyway.Roxas wrote:
we allow hard/ET/extralunatic maps as long as they fit. As you can see, there are some ET maps ranked, like Thunderbolt or Akasha, no BATs complained about them.
I think it's not the right place for talking about, we can have an IRC chat about this.Xcrypt wrote:
Thanks for the reply.
If you agree with my definition, could you please give the ghost diff by agka another look? I've checked it in editor myself a couple times, all notes make sense to me. At 100% speed, there's a few notes that do not make sense to me because it is too hard for me to follow properly (those are the hardest two sections with fast big chords) but when I look at them at 50% speed I can clearly see that nearly every chord/note is mapped to a sound that makes sense.
If you disagree would be nice to know exactly why.
I never saw hard maps denied unless they were overmapped.Xcrypt wrote:
Yes that's true, some hard/ET maps are ranked, and I feel like it's going in the right direction, but I also feel like there's still a lot of huss fuss. A lot of good hard maps are denied as well, more than good hard maps are ranked. I also think that this also gave the community like a feeling that they shouldn't bother even trying to rank harder maps because 95% of the time it will get denied anyway.
Could you link me to the rules so that I can understand(?) it better, perhaps?Roxas wrote:
As I said above, it's a fact of game rules, not of difficulty.ishimaru94 wrote:
Here's a question.
What if that overmapped diff can easily be tackled/pass by those advanced/ET players? Doesn't it make them rankable for it?
bump this..
*Thumbs up* holy moly..
EDIT:
if ETozer's map ranked:
1. Scoreboard is only a few.like ET person only
2. even if other player join the scoreboard. probably NF,EZ, or HT.
3. few S by ET,much B,C,or D by us who are noob ;w;
4. people may download but didn't play it (just a souvenir lol)
5. the map may give +1000pp if around 99% or something
6. some other possibility that i never thought....
*Thumbs up* holy moly..
EDIT:
if ETozer's map ranked:
1. Scoreboard is only a few.like ET person only
2. even if other player join the scoreboard. probably NF,EZ, or HT.
3. few S by ET,much B,C,or D by us who are noob ;w;
4. people may download but didn't play it (just a souvenir lol)
5. the map may give +1000pp if around 99% or something
6. some other possibility that i never thought....
Still, mania BATs are decreasing though. 
they keep retire ;w;ishimaru94 wrote:
Still, mania BATs are decreasing though.
now only 2... dangit..
Redxas has been studying for quite a while, Shi-Ra wants to quit, and PROGUY just can't handle everything by himself. O!m really needs a few new mania BATs to keep the ranking process going smoothly. D:
/me pokes BATmanager
/me pokes BATmanager
Objectively speaking, Mania is harder to mod than standard. Maybe it's possible to tone down the rc? Or broaden the team that manages mania maps. Assign someone to handle specific aspect of the map. Have someone check the patterns, have someone check the hitsound, have someone check the consistency of the diff, have someone check the relevance of the notes, etc etc.
Fullereneshift wrote:
Someone said that harder maps should be ranked
harder maps like this https://osu.ppy.sh/s/174381
___________________
btw I have my personal hitsound checker :3 /me poke Pew
>ENTOZER FOR BATCephiCC wrote:
Xcrypt wrote:
Entozer for BAT2014 !!!
YES PLS MAKE HIM A BAT! MAPTOZER BATOZER THE BEST!
onehundred1 wrote:
>ENTOZER FOR BAT
YES PLS MAKE HIM A BAT! MAPTOZER BATOZER THE BEST!
I'm gonna make a signiture-friendly version of the masterpiece, gimme a minute
I'm pretty sure Entozer doesn't want to be bat again due to his experience of being a bat.
can you literally not even?-Hazelnut wrote:
what is this I don't even
lr2 isn't an EAST ASIAN ONLINE MULTIPLAYER GAME
I play korean mmorpg but drace doesn't play korean mmorpg
korean east galactic west quadrant third quarter nsfw mmo thread go!
wha....t ?
what is this mmorpg 
?
?
Topic Starter
i try it...i test it...and i watch it
kinda 0.5 sudden fail
i voted yes <(")
kinda 0.5 sudden fail
i voted yes <(")
I always wonder where you pull this bullshit from.ishimaru94 wrote:
I'm pretty sure Entozer doesn't want to be bat again due to his experience of being a bat.
This thread started to be stupid, because if you want harder maps, map them - but map them reasonable.