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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
You can stay in the middle actually, you just have to be precise, I've hit that part many times by just standing still.
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
And IT IS impossible to pass only standing quiet. One thing more, the players who has Fc'ed, they don't have this map as a top rank... is it logical? i don't think so... they must have this like one of their top ranks. Conclusion: The pp system doesn't count this type of patterns as "insane".
It isn't the purpose of this threadDakkyChan wrote:
Is that so hard to fix the hyperjumps again ?
. We want to get feedback about pp system, not about hyperjump system.Be more clear with your idea, because i can understand it like to cope with this pp system to change it or to adapt to it.Seph wrote:
Is trying to cope with change that hard?
DeathXHunter
Yep, you are right, the rest of the map is pretty easy... i dont know how to weight that, but at least something i think.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Topic Starter
The algorithm isn't just counting the jumps. It'd mostly taking the hardest patterns, which are currently determined by jump speed, and I agree with you that it isn't very optimal. Thanks for all the input, also to all other people who posted here, and I hope to incorporate that into the algorithm at some point.mikhe wrote:
I dont think that the difficulty is calculated for the CtB mode, i think the stars (the difficulty of a map) is calculated like an osu! standard map. Not totally sure, but it was how it works in the past. (If someone knows, correct me pls)TheVileOne wrote:
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
One last thing, we don't need to know the algorithm, the exact pp of a map, we ONLY should know how it works, the future should be: "I see that pretty complex jumps in that map, i'm sure that this map give me pp"... *after some play* ... "I got X pp, nice
Now, i want to say something about the algorithm. I think is wrong, because it judges the pp amount of a map in base of the quantity of jumps and the distance between this jumps. What is wrong? Easy, the jumps are so overrated that some player can do HR+HT or EZ and get one of his top ranks, some examples:
- RAMPAGE88 with Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (hid+HR+HT)
- Dark Diego with the same (hid+HR+HT)
- ExGon with IOSYS - Cirno's Perfect Math Class (EZ+FL)
- ExGon with Yousei Teikoku - Kokou no Sousei (HR+HT)
There are 3 pro players, i'm sure there are so pro, but they has a huge valoration of his skills in those maps with HT and EZ!! And they have so many records even better than these.
Solution, in my opinion, first of all we have to nerf HalfTime and Eazy mods in the pp calculation. Maybe a solution could be that if you use Eazy you will get 0.5*pp and if you use HT 0.3*pp (like the nerf in the score when you use these mods).
Secondly we should open our mind, a map is not neccesary harder if we have 100 jumps, even if +50% of jumps are with hyperdash. Why is a map harder than other one? I think, always is my opinion, if you do a map with insane streams+jumps it's soooo hard, for example 44teru-k remixed wa. - Higanbana Daini -Shuusei no Lycoris-, even if you don't have "jumps" properly, but your map have streams and can't get the fruits simply stand quiet and you have to move so fast to get or to be lucky to get without any movement, for example Shounen Radio - neu.
So, i guess you don't have to do (i'm talking with you Tom) an algorithm that try to count jumps, distance and calculate pp (ofc i suppose that you count the mods, DT, hid...etc in the algorithm). I think we should create an algorithm which can detect patterns (using a data base for example). Now the point is... how many pp are fair to each pattern? I really don't know at the moment, but all the community of CtB can help us in that, i think we can work from this point all together
I'm waiting some response(positive or negative but always with respect!)
Edit: I'm sure we can find more examples of complex patterns in some CtB maps, please help me people, say some!
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
Question about how difficulty is calculated for pp, do streams lower the difficulty? Since that would make maps like freedom dive give very little due to it having so many long streams when it's still pretty difficult seeing as not that many people can FC it. Part of it might be the fact that it's so long since it doesn't really have that many hard parts, but the jumps that keep people from FC'ing it are still pretty challenging even if there's only a few.
Topic Starter
The difficulty algorithm is run seperately for hardrock, easy, doubletime and halftime. Don't worry, it's just just a flat difficulty bonus.TheVileOne wrote:
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
what really bothers me is the huge gap on pp right now..
I really do not understand the new system. I really cannot wait for a the wikipage or a topic for the CtB PP algorithms.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
mikhe wrote:
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
~
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
Topic Starter
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
what if all the top plays are SS's? :v assuming no spinners (it also looks like hidden is over rewarding pp despite the difficult barely going up)
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. watTom94 wrote:
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Link to example, please (the user with the HDHRHT rank)? If that's the case then I'll adjust it. That's not supposed to happen.Seph wrote:
why does airman give more with HDHRHT than an actual nomod SS? please explain.
Seph
mine and Dark Diego
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
You dodged my question and all these maps are insanely hard, they are top tier maps, theres a strong reason why only 10 people have fc'd a certain map for instance why is kemu life game worth nothing even tho it's nearly impossible and you have to get lucky https://osu.ppy.sh/u/set44599 why isn't kemu life game ( https://osu.ppy.sh/b/187501?m=2 ) on his top performances if he holds the only FC and SS another case is nomod, why is HD weighted like a anchor?Tom94 wrote:
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
PS: I'm not trying to hold torches and go after you, I know you don't play CtB but.. this ranking system needs a lot of work and you seem to think it's fine or something.
DeathXHunter
DeletedUser_500696
I agree with fabi, don't talk smack about my brethren please. Also, there is a huge range of ctb styles and preferences which cannot possibly be accounted for in a single algorithm (reliable player, HD player, HD+HR, spin pro, w/e). Don't judge others based on your style solelySabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
AUUUUUUUUUU
DeathXHunter
Sabi wrote:
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately.Sabi wrote:
I can care less about ranking
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
"I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately."
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
Oh damn, every time this fighting about ranking and pp and who is better and who is not. Just stop that already.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Agreed.TenguKing9 wrote:
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Seph
if you can't sense my grammar in the sentence of what I said, and my sarcasm then you are really foreign.Seph wrote:
haSabi wrote:
go berzerk is hardest song
hahaha
ahahahahahaha
just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
"just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp."
The ranking system is corrupt, how you may ask? I just jumped 100 ranks in 1 day by playing bullshit easy ctb maps. See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Seph
inb4 noSabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Please guys stay in the topic witout the troll/taunt/flame things... You're just making the things harder to fix for Tom.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
then why are you posting heresalamat wrote:
When ppv2 was in progress, I thought I couldn't live without PP... now I feel it shouldn't belong anymore.
That being said, I know how hard it is to establish and maintain a fair system, that why I'm not doing anything about it.
Had a long talk with a wize korean, he told me that I shouldn't be mad, and I thought about it for awhile and I realize that I can't be friends with everyone and some people are just scumbags towards you, so to be honest, sorry for bringing my problems and my anger in the forums and not to better the pp system, I am truly sorry.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
From what I've noticed after getting to rank 99 from 310 was. Droplets mean nothing and spinners mean nothing, and you don't even have to fully FC a map. Trust me, I did over 40-60 CtB maps and other maps yesterday. A strong example is this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/159792?m=2 I didn't FC it, but I lost 10 pp normally if I did FC it, I think I got trolled and droped near the end or something. but look at my pp gain from (mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2427813) to (Yukiteru Amano: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1894511).Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
PS: S vs SS is 1 PP.
Topic Starter
The "weighting" doesn't have anything to do with consistency. Only by how far up the score is in your best performance list. It's simply there to ensure you can't keep getting pp for equally good scores.Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
Just bumping in to make some statements 
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)o
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)oi have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
Seph
I'm guessing pp calculation for HR plays aren't weighted that much yet? I have some AR9 HDHR plays and they don't give that much. And waiting for the airman fix x3 that would give me some more pp if it doeslineqtxz wrote:
i have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
wait...
im not :O
VelperK wrote:
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
you're just unhappy because you cant beat exgon
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
sigh
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
I can make you the best pp wiki:-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
Check users with less than 20 ranks above you's best performance and so on until you get #1 world PP.
Laharl wrote:
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
im not sure if it actually works out that way in the formula (i dont know the entire formula nor how it works) but it seems that way based on a lot of top players top performances (if i dont count the HD HR DT maps for obvious reasons)
edit: fixed HD to HR, letters op
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
HD DT is easier than ar7/8 HD indeedZak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
But it depends by the map of course.
Zak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
kinda hard for me to think of an example when im a no mod player :v, also i meant "hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT" as in HD mod is giving more pp than HR or DT (not HR+DT, that would be broken)
You have absolutely nothing to actually support your theory though, you need to provide some examples where HD is giving more pp than DT/HR
Topic Starter
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
that explains that :v (also by your definition, what is crazy high and crazy low ar? 9 and up high and 6 or below is low?
Haron_old_1
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1451372 0 pp, but it's really hard ):
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
I think it would be better to revamp the scoring system and base it on the pp system when this one is "finished". But this isn't for now I guess...TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
As I saidSabi wrote:
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
no
Topic Starter
It certainly would be ultra cool to have mod-specific highscores. Right now it can't be done, though. Let's see what the future brings.TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
As I said68 was close enough~ and besides, I ranked and did over 80 maps, give sabi a break >_>
no
Yep, pretty much.Luna wrote:
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
It does know how to put them at a proper order, but it overrates them like crazy.
AR10 and AR9+DT should give a lot more pp,
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
I thought it's already well-known that the PP rewards of CtB-specific maps are ridiculously high compared to the ones of converted maps which may be sometimes way more challenging.seicHmsc wrote:
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC [...]
It's mostly based on how many long jumps the map has, so something with lots of them that is still not too difficult to FC (which is mostly ctb specifics) will give a lot more pp than lots of the hard maps which don't have that many.
There is no difference on the pp calculation between an specific and a converted difficulty, Zak is right, so the algorithm needs to be fixed.Laharl wrote:
I thought it's already well-known that the PP rewards of CtB-specific maps are ridiculously high compared to the ones of converted maps which may be sometimes way more challenging.seicHmsc wrote:
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC [...]
When will we get to see a more thorough record of difficulties for CTB difficulties. I mean I am under the impression that there are indeed some maps that are fairly straightforward to beat that have jumps, and they do give. However at my rank the people around me seem to have similar difficulty maps in their performance lists. It seems to be a balanced system for as far as at least up to perhaps rank 1200.
I don't want to give a definitive thought about the overall balance of the system until I get around to playing maps known to have high pp nets for FCing. I have not been actively seeking out maps that are worth more pp in retrospect. I've been rolling the dice so to speak by playing maps and hoping that they are worth pp.
There are probably maps out there that are harder to FC, because of one or two patterns. There are many conversion maps with patterns like chained hypers that I still haven't grasped how to do. There are still many more that I haven't FCed merely because I don't care enough to practice the map until I FC.
Hardrock is a different story altogether. Hopefully people who are playing maps in HardRock and HardRock + Doubletime are getting a decent chunk of pp for their troubles. HardRock makes nearly all 4.75+ star (old system) maps much, much harder to complete, nevermind FCing. I have not yet grasped AR10 and I'm not sure whether I will ever grasp it. I've started practicing maps with Hidden+HardRock in which previously I would only Hidden and most maps with any form of jump or precise movement kicks my butt due to how much more precise you need to be on top of the reduced reaction time.
I'm not sure what the community thinks as I certainly do not qualify as a player with "skill" at least how most described it in the What do you consider as CTB skill thread, but I consider that a HardRock play in jumpy maps rivals and likely surpasses most conversions without mods (or just with Hidden). The exceptions being maps that I probably currently have A ranks in or haven't passed yet due to huge jumps/ chains. I feel that any map that I feel that I am capable of FCing should not be worth as much as a play that I currently cannot even come remotely close to FCing (like 95% of maps with HR above the Normal level).
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I don't want to give a definitive thought about the overall balance of the system until I get around to playing maps known to have high pp nets for FCing. I have not been actively seeking out maps that are worth more pp in retrospect. I've been rolling the dice so to speak by playing maps and hoping that they are worth pp.
There are probably maps out there that are harder to FC, because of one or two patterns. There are many conversion maps with patterns like chained hypers that I still haven't grasped how to do. There are still many more that I haven't FCed merely because I don't care enough to practice the map until I FC.
Hardrock is a different story altogether. Hopefully people who are playing maps in HardRock and HardRock + Doubletime are getting a decent chunk of pp for their troubles. HardRock makes nearly all 4.75+ star (old system) maps much, much harder to complete, nevermind FCing. I have not yet grasped AR10 and I'm not sure whether I will ever grasp it. I've started practicing maps with Hidden+HardRock in which previously I would only Hidden and most maps with any form of jump or precise movement kicks my butt due to how much more precise you need to be on top of the reduced reaction time.
I'm not sure what the community thinks as I certainly do not qualify as a player with "skill" at least how most described it in the What do you consider as CTB skill thread, but I consider that a HardRock play in jumpy maps rivals and likely surpasses most conversions without mods (or just with Hidden). The exceptions being maps that I probably currently have A ranks in or haven't passed yet due to huge jumps/ chains. I feel that any map that I feel that I am capable of FCing should not be worth as much as a play that I currently cannot even come remotely close to FCing (like 95% of maps with HR above the Normal level).
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I think that can't be judged in some kind of ranking list. I'm #320 and didn't touch HR at ridiculously high AR until now.TheVileOne wrote:
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I would have to guess - About #120.
It also depends what "most maps" is for you. Everything that's not AR10? Won't get you anywhere I guess.
Seph
If its insanes I'd say around rank 80 at most. If its HRing mostly Hards, I'd say 200 below.TheVileOne wrote:
I have a question for the CTB community. What CTB rank do you feel it should be necessary to have mastered HardRock in most maps to be able to reach? At my current level (low 1500) I haven't needed to touch HardRock at all to get here (well except Normal and Easy plays that are worth 100-115 pp).
I'm trying to think of the situation rationally. I know that each mod is run separately for difficulty. I'm curious to know if there is some algorithm that would roughly estimate the extra pp a map is worth compared to its non-HardRock version. I have maps that I know are worth a ton of pp. I know I could FC this with a little practice. FCing it will give someone ~230 pp. This value is extremely excessive considering that HardRock will probably add around 30? pp to the average Hard even though I consider AR10 much harder to play reliably and learn.
Anyone who plays this map is practically getting80 pp more than I think this should be worth if they FC it. (It should be worth around 140-150pp for a FC or at least less than most maps with any form of complexity that become AR10 with HardRock). (Edit: I have had a change of heart. This map should be worth 175-200 pp as long as most AR 10 maps with jumps are worth around the same/ greater).
If one thinks rationally. If one should get this amount for FCing this map, then any map that is harder to FC than this map should get more than 230 or this map should be worth less pp.
Anyone who plays this map is practically getting
If one thinks rationally. If one should get this amount for FCing this map, then any map that is harder to FC than this map should get more than 230 or this map should be worth less pp.
that map gives 230pp with hd only, which is too much imo, the left-right jumps are not hard at all (at least for me).
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
edit: that map with dt gives tooooooooo much ... why?
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
edit: that map with dt gives tooooooooo much ... why?
Yup.seicHmsc wrote:
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.
both are hard to fc, so this guy is right, where is the cookie?Laharl wrote:
Yup.seicHmsc wrote:
I think the algorithm must consider the jump complexity instead of only the distance, still, hyperdashed jumps and jumps close to an hyperdash should be rated high.
For example this (which is a somewhat bad example because I'm not even close to FCing that, maybe the guys who FC'd it are gonna tell me it's as easy as heck) or this - it doesn't even appear in a single PP ranking list, but the latter's in my opinion just a bad joke in terms of difficulty - and this should be definitely rewarded regarding how many people got FC on that map.
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty for someone that doesn't play Ctb, but it's somewhat wrong I guess.
I was also wondering if patterns such as this were worth anything. I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps, but I'd say they should be worth at least a few pp since it's very easy to miss on them.
Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
Also,
In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumpsTheVileOne wrote:
I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
I can't do chain jumps, but I can sort of do this if I can get lucky.
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them doneLuna wrote:
Yeah, plate walks like in Emerald Sword and neu have already been mentioned.
Also,In my opinion they are much, much harder than chain jumpsTheVileOne wrote:
I know that they aren't as difficult as chain jumps
Maybe that's just because I suck at CtB
it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps plsVelperK wrote:
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done
Hard slider patterns like the ones you mentioned are definitely underrated in CTB. Some examples: #1, #2, #3, #4Laharl wrote:
I guess the jumps in those maps may be seen as streams - which make them less interesting in terms of difficulty
The patterns in those maps are hard in a different way, yet none of them is rewarding at all.
azul is quite hard
Seph
If Note FCing stuff with DT means it's not hard, then nothing is hard haha
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.seicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emeral sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps plsVelperK wrote:
they're a different thing, very hard for me to do them and will most of the time depend on luck for getting them done
I think the CTB community considers another pattern with this term that uses sliders.
seph are you high...how can you say is not hard..just because note fc'd it...That map is obviously hard even with HD only, now imagine DTSeph wrote:
fixed it for youseicHmsc wrote:
it depends if it's on the limit, emerald sword is not that hard, anyways, someone could tell me what are chain jumps pls
also proof its not hard is that NoteKuroi fc'd with DT lol
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
I didn't say they were impossible. I just said that I couldn't do (hyper'd chains yet).
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
I think that these chains already give a decent amount of pp just for the difficulty of the jumps alone. But mostly anyone has the ability to hit a single precise/ hyper jump. I believe that the PP system should award pp accordingly to the multitude of different skills that all CTB players learn while they move up the skill ladder.
Showing that you can accurately time a second hyper from a first hyper (or a non-hyper large jump, which is much harder) is a skill.
Plate-walking requires ability to consistently time a precise movement repeatedly. It is a skill that must be learned and should be rewarded. (It is important for playing slower maps with lots of curving sliders without missing droplets).
Any patterns that require precise movement, consistency of movement, or a better understanding of how the ryuuta gets from point a to b should be rewarded. The amount it should be rewarded depends on how precise and difficult the movement is. Of course easier, less precise movements should also be considered as well. Newer players will find some patterns harder than others that we complete 100% of the time.
If you watch how I tend to play. It's kind of hard to see when I am playing hidden, but you will notice how sloppy I am when I move my ryuuta. A major problem I have right now is consistency of movement, when hitting jumps, patterns, streams. This sloppiness both in timing and control prevents me from mastering chained hypers yet. It is on my list of things to practice/ improve upon. I think maps that require consistency to play (most maps that translate to AR10 for example) should give a healthy reward to players. There's probably only a handful of people who have truly mastered CTB compared to the number of people who mastered standard gameplay and pp should really reflect that acquisition of skills as we move to that next tier. ( I asked you what rank people should have mastered HR and 200 was the low end answer).
I don't want to say that the system is broken in that it isn't currently balanced. I just want to make it clear that CTB skill is largely defined by complexity and the pp should reflect that.
PP should also reward for effort too and it already does. Anything that requires commitment to achieve should be worth a healthy amount. If Hard Rock makes missing in a map less forgiving and you fail much more easily, then that map with the same number of misses should be worth a lot more than the exact same conversion with a lower drain (not as much as without misses without Hard Rock obviously).
There should be measures for droplets and spinners as well. Easy to FC could be very very difficult to SS. Does the speed to reach an object include catching all the droplets that are in the way? I'm not sure how much the algorithm goes in this regard. I generally find that it is easier to catch all the droplets if the speed required to catch everything is roughly near the speed at which the ryuuta moves normally. If you have to speed up or slow down (move at an irregular speed) then it's harder. The more weirdly displaced the droplets, the easier it is to miss them. Long slow sliders in Hidden are just awful (worse than Flashlight in some cases).
Spinning seems like it would be relatively simple to incorporate. Calculate the max number of fruits that is possible to catch, and consider the difficulty of movement required. Then remove a fruit and calculate the easiest path to catch that fruit. Do this until you reach the minimum amount of fruit one can catch from the spinner. Calculate for all spinners. Calculate performance bonus based on difficulty required to catch x spinner fruits per spinner in map.
I would really like to see a pp calculator where we can input a map, number of mods and it will tell us how much pp each mod combination is worth if we get SS or miss a number of droplets. Breaking combo would be a lot more complicated, so I'm not sure if that will be feasible. We really need to have this to properly test the system for inaccuracy. We can't reliably play a score with every mod combination. The system could be terribly broken for easier conversions and we would never know.
Those chain jumps aren't bad once you get the hang of them. When they're screen width however, or alternating widths, that's when you have difficulty.Tenshichan wrote:
They are not so hard to do if it isn't a ridiculously high bpm.TheVileOne wrote:
I consider these chain jumps. They come in hyper and non hyper forms.
It becomes really hard when changes between hypers and non-hypers happen.
Examples of this behaviour are Homework Crisis, IVALTEK, Shokuzai Belladonna, Ijou Nashi etc etc...
However, this has been discussed many times already and no changes to it happen
So it somehow needs to be considered?
Seph