[Epicz] wrote:

loctav.. seriously?

1. Timing needs a rework. First red line is late, second red line starts on the wrong beat. We estimate the first timing to be around 160ms.
2. This song uses less 1/4 snapped objects than you think. To avoid overmapping you have to remove many of these objects.
3. 00:23:230 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Triples...why?
4. 00:25:208 (5,6,7) - Very unintuitive, rhythm unnecessary and not even present.
5. 00:26:526 (1,2,3) - Apart from rhythm issues, it's also hell to try to read.
6. 00:28:669 (4,5,6,1,2,3) - Again, why? And all your triples after this, why?
7. 00:31:471 (2,1,2,3) - Can't find a reason to have this at all.
8. 00:35:262 (1) - Not too sure I understand combo pattern here. In fact, I'm having a hard time understanding the combo pattern for the entire map.
9. 00:36:746 (2,3,4) - Do you put these here just for the sake of putting them here?
10. 00:38:065 (3,4,5,6) - You don't use this kind of overlapping anywhere else, and at this part of this song I'm not sure it's a great idea to introduce this kind of pattern, since it doesn't even stand out.
11. 00:41:361 (3,4,5) - Removing (4) would be mapping to the song.
12. 00:44:658 (5,6,1) - Rhythmically they make sense, but the way you placed these objects breaks all sorts of flow...
13. And so on...

1. 00:28:175 (1) - Snap end to red or white. Nothing plays at blue.

Loctav wrote:

Unranked due to wrong timing and HEAVY overmapping on "Dance" difficulty. This is unacceptable.

tl;dr: follow the song please. If you want to map everything on 1/4, please map without an mp3 next time.

those wrote:

[Dance]

1. Timing needs a rework. First red line is late, second red line starts on the wrong beat. We estimate the first timing to be around 160ms.
   Check your skin and change back to default to see the result. Otherwise, your computer is slow. Buy a new one so that it does not have any delay.
2. This song uses less 1/4 snapped objects than you think. To avoid overmapping you have to remove many of these objects. The map is less overmapping than you think. Listen to the song in auto, rather than listening to the original song and rigidly compare the additional 1/4's.
3. 00:23:230 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - Triples...why? Thay are called triplets, use Google Translation and dictionaries for better explanation. In addition, you should learn some basic music skills. I admit I was wrong, but it does not change the result that the triple notes should not be removed.
4. 00:25:208 (5,6,7) - Very unintuitive, rhythm unnecessary and not even present. A player that can play Insane level should have the skill to read it. Otherwise, we should cancel the approaching circle to make it more intuitive.
5. 00:26:526 (1,2,3) - Apart from rhythm issues, it's also hell to try to read. They are as common as streams. So why not ban epentheses in all modes?
6. 00:28:669 (4,5,6,1,2,3) - Again, why? And all your triples after this, why? Why are you asking this? You never played any songs with epentheses?
7. 00:31:471 (2,1,2,3) - Can't find a reason to have this at all. This acceleration means emphasisation. It is readable, rankable, playable and reasonable. Quit doubting.
8. 00:35:262 (1) - Not too sure I understand combo pattern here. In fact, I'm having a hard time understanding the combo pattern for the entire map. This is a start of a new subsection. Why are you having different combo sensation with common players?
9. 00:36:746 (2,3,4) - Do you put these here just for the sake of putting them here? Do you unrankable-ise things just to convince the unknowingly crowd that you are working? If so, stop it.
10. 00:38:065 (3,4,5,6) - You don't use this kind of overlapping anywhere else, and at this part of this song I'm not sure it's a great idea to introduce this kind of pattern, since it doesn't even stand out. A closing spinner sometimes only appears once in the map, it does not mean that it should not be there. Similarly, unique overlapping is not a reason for unranking.
11. 00:41:361 (3,4,5) - Removing (4) would be mapping to the song. It even makes the song empty. It should not be removed, under any circumstances.
12. 00:44:658 (5,6,1) - Rhythmically they make sense, but the way you placed these objects breaks all sorts of flow... So what? Imo She should change 5 and 6 to make it flow better and that makes sense.
13. And so on...

[Kiiwa]

1. 00:28:175 (1) - Snap end to red or white. Nothing plays at blue. Makes sense but the reason is not quite good. The 1/4 does not fit the music, simply like that.

dkun wrote:

Approaching this map with all bold and coming in thinking you know what you're saying is quite insultive to the BAT/Administration team. Unranks are performed by standard and sole decision of the team when they deem it is necessary. Not only when it is "unrankable".

This is a rhythm game, there are always differing opinions. If you cannot realize this, then don't post at all.

There is an EXTREMELY big difference between mapping for the sake of difficulty and mapping for the rhythm of the map. Mappers like 0108 map via rhythm but in a more difficult manner. This song however, fail to achieve that and simply overmaps and doesn't look back.

Dance does indeed need changes.

This is a rhythm game, there are always differing opinions. If you cannot realize this, then don't post at all.

Flower wrote:

The map is less overmapping than you think. Listen to the song in auto, rather than listening to the original song and rigidly compare the additional 1/4's.

Flower wrote:

Loctav wrote:

Unranked due to wrong timing and HEAVY overmapping on "Dance" difficulty. This is unacceptable.

tl;dr: follow the song please. If you want to map everything on 1/4, please map without an mp3 next time.

I JUST WONDER WHAT YOUR OVERMAP IS. Unrank should be performed ONLY when the map is UNRANKABLE. The patterns used in Dance is widely used for most experienced mappers, and is not prohibited or even dis-encouraged in the Criteria.
Someone may quote that "previous maps won't be an example", but at least mappers like 0108 or H30 will laugh at your "overmapping" standard.

Therefore, as a further talk, you should know how the patterns are formed.
A good player should get to know something called Epenthesis. It is a skill to add beats to the current rhythm to make it richer and more lively. Adding triplets between quavers and making a stream over a long tone is very common in rhythm games.
You quite know something in taiko. I found that you made many 1/6 patterns in just long tunes. That is not overmapped because it fits the song. That applies in osu mode. It fits the song, and is readable, the pattern is not overmapped. Otherwise, World's end, Basara, ikusa won't exist.

Nothing to change to satisfy the criteria. And, this is an awesome map. Therefore, the unranking is unreasonable. You should consider reranking the map without any changes.

Flower wrote:

That is not overmapped because it fits the song. That applies in osu mode. It fits the song, and is readable, the pattern is not overmapped.

Mr Color wrote:

pssst kevincela you quoted the wrong guy

and you messed up his post, poor dude

-kevincela- wrote:

Do you know what "fit the song" means? It means that it should CLEARLY follow the instruments of it,otherwise how could it fit? I checked the map,and I agree that there is a TOTALLY HIGH amount of unneded hitobjects,which are based on absolutely nothing,and that there are many places in which the flow gets totally broken. Please,do not explain saying "this fits the song",because I found almost nothing in the whole diff to follow it properly. Besides, saying that a pattern is "readable" is totally subjective: while there are some players which can play them without any problems, there are players which do not absolutely understand the changes of spacing and rhythm used there.

tl;dr: Please,refrain from acting like this, everyone has it's opinions, but it seems like you're acting like the most experience person in the earth. Remember that this is a RHYTHM GAME,and if a map doesen't match the rhythm of a map,why should it be called BEATmap then?

Please,refrain from acting like this, everyone has it's opinions, but it seems like you're acting like the most experience person in the earth. Remember that this is a RHYTHM GAME,and if a map doesen't match the rhythm of a map,why should it be called BEATmap then?

Loctav wrote:

"Lets click random circles with music going in the background" game.

Loctav wrote:

You can't be serious...

tutuhaha wrote:

too many people use diff rhythm in they map, and then they get rank, why I can not

tutuhaha wrote:

because THIS is the way which osu use it to describe the rhythm

those wrote:

Are you suggesting we compile a list of all these maps and unrank all of them?

those wrote:

It's not. We map to the music, and we don't map to nothing. You can keep assuming this is the way, or you can change your way of thinking to get this map reranked and future maps ranked.

Flower wrote:

You are wrong. We map as music, not to the music. This is the basic concept as a mapper.

Philippines wrote:

This is gonna be one of the hardest unrank conversations I can tell.

lolcubes wrote:

Flower wrote:

You are wrong. We map as music, not to the music. This is the basic concept as a mapper.

I think you got this wrong. :/

Mr Color wrote:

man Germany's all over this

Loctav's popular ain't he

Tanzklaue wrote:

Mr Color wrote:

man Germany's all over this

Loctav's popular ain't he

3 dudes is all over the place?

Flower wrote:

You are wrong. We map as music, not to the music. This is the basic concept as a mapper.

those wrote:

tutuhaha wrote:

too many people use diff rhythm in they map, and then they get rank, why I can not

Are you suggesting we compile a list of all these maps and unrank all of them?

tutuhaha wrote:

because THIS is the way which osu use it to describe the rhythm

It's not. We map to the music, and we don't map to nothing. You can keep assuming this is the way, or you can change your way of thinking to get this map reranked and future maps ranked.

Philippines wrote:

This is gonna be one of the hardest unrank conversations I can tell.

tutuhaha wrote:

and you need think about if "use the normal rhythm, unnecessary and overmap is unrankable" is rank rule, how about just unrank all map after 2011？

Loctav wrote:

Pointing at other maps doesnt make this one better.

Mr Color wrote:

man Germany's all over this

Loctav's popular ain't he

tutuhaha wrote:

more XAT come to discuss it？

Loctav wrote:

Pointing at other maps doesnt make this one better.

MMzz wrote:

Flower wrote:

You are wrong. We map as music, not to the music. This is the basic concept as a mapper.

http://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Insane

Please read.

If there is no sudden change that requires (or could greatly be supplemented with) difficulty increasing techniques, then simply don't add them.

Flower wrote:

It can be raised in the moddings, but the mapper has right to choose taking it or not.

Flower wrote:

Clicking the notes when drum hits or the singer gives a word? Is that fun? Remember, osu is not a instrument-following training application, it is made just for fun.

Tshemmp wrote:

Flower wrote:

Clicking the notes when drum hits or the singer gives a word? Is that fun? Remember, osu is not a instrument-following training application, it is made just for fun.

Dude, that's the concept of rhythm games: performing according to the music. If you don't like this then rhythm games are not your genre.

Flower wrote:

Music game is a concept that is to let common people enjoy making music without professional training.

Flower wrote:

Nope. You are stating the rigid definition which does not fit all music games such as Taiko no Tasujin, DJMAX Technika, Groove Coaster, and of course Osu!. Music game is a concept that is to let common people enjoy making music without professional training, or enjoy rhythmic tapping. On this level, such triples is totally reasonable and is rather creative as they create a rhythm, even some of players don't like.

Loctav wrote:

You are supposed to create the perfect overlay of the song.
This map is an overlay of a song that is somehow not included in this mapset.

Zarerion wrote:

Flower wrote:

Nope. You are stating the rigid definition which does not fit all music games such as Taiko no Tasujin, DJMAX Technika, Groove Coaster, and of course Osu!. Music game is a concept that is to let common people enjoy making music without professional training, or enjoy rhythmic tapping. On this level, such triples is totally reasonable and is rather creative as they create a rhythm, even some of players don't like.

Just accept it, the BATs say it is unranakable in it current state.

Also 100% agree with Makar.

edit: wow i messed this post up lol

CXu wrote:

You guys speak as if there is only one way to map a song, lol. People interpret music differently, and mapping is a way to express your own interpretation of the song.

tutuhaha wrote:

why you guys exclude the unnecessary note？it is always useful in my ranked map
...
I will not change many space and triple,and I still want to rank this map

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion

UnitedWeSin wrote:

While I respect the opinions of the XATs very much, I do firmly believe that "overmapping" is entirely an opinion, of course excluding extreme instances, which I do not believe this to be one of them. This map plays amazingly well to me. The jumps are so fluid, it's really enjoyable to play, just like Re:make was. After a few plays, the rhythm becomes quite readable, although for things like 01:16:665 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2) I do believe a better rhythm could have been used, but it's not an issue warrants unrank due to overmapping imho.
One complaint:
01:01:501 (1) - This circle is almost completely hidden by the previous slider 01:01:006 (2) so a lot of the time it leaves the player confused as to where the next note in the 01:01:501 (1,2,3,4) combo is. Better to make it more visible imo.

I just think this mapping is quite unique and epic, and I wouldn't want Tutuhaha to stop mapping in this style because of this unrank. -.-

lolcubes wrote:

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion

Overmapping is not an opinion. Overmapping is mapping notes in spots where there is no music, i.e. beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument. That is not an opinion.

lolcubes wrote:

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion

Overmapping is not an opinion. Overmapping is mapping notes in spots where there is no music, i.e. beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument. That is not an opinion.

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?

those wrote:

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?

Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.

Andrea wrote:

I don't like Dance difficulty, it's really too overmapped and destroys the mapset.

those wrote:

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?

Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.

those wrote:

The point is, you can put that anywhere on the map, and you can back it up with "I think it fits", where in reality this rhythm pattern doesn't appear ANYWHERE in this song.

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.

Gundam wrote:

Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.

I can't find it in this map. can you point it?

Why a beatmap has many diff?
I think the key point is:RHYTHM
basic diff's rhythm is sparse but higher diff's rhythm intensive.For example,jubeat's Basic,Advanced and Extreme,DJMAX TECHNIKA's Normal,Hard and Maximum.In Extreme or Maximum,there are so much rhythm pattern(can't find in the song),but nobody think it's unplayable or overmap.I think this map is analogous,you know,Rating of the map is 9.6,it means that this map is playable.A map is playable or no is depends on most of player instead of some BAT/MAT.

so,rerank it plz.

edit:

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.

Why is such a player with little judgement skill to be elected as a Team member? Who did this?

Zarerion wrote:

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.

This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.

How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?

Strawberry wrote:

@Zarerion: overmap is a style, where you found "too much" here? also, same as DJMAX, remember osu! is also the mug. you can't defeat all that Gundam said. btw, what's your certain standards?

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.

This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.

How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.

tutuhaha wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.

Now many people agree this is playable so this is not the point

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye

Flower wrote:

It is not decided by a certain BAT as human is not perfect. The rating before unrank is overwhelmingly positive, whitch means this overmap does not affect playing. On the contrary, simply following the existing drum and vocal is quite plain, less creative and will get less rating, as I suggested. Since when did ratings ever fully determine that argument? Do you even realize how skewed the ratings are when you compare it to map quality? Positive ratings does not support the use of overmap at all. Just question your skill and your reasons for rating.

How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?

lol Do you think this question is based on nothing? Do you think accusations will do this any good? Please, be productive.

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues. It's not that they have the most, they generally have higher standards of quality and precision when it comes to modding. They know how to rectify problems they see in mapping, which is why they are given their titles so they can share that wealth of knowledge for the greater good.

Gundam wrote:

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.

But now we are talk about this map,and I can't find it anywhere on the map. Did you not read the previous posts? People, learn to read before you enter an argument otherwise you just look silly and foolish.

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye

Zarerion wrote:

In this thread, at least as many players disliked the overmapping.

*sigh* Why do you even bother? It's decided already, it's not like your complaining would change anything.

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye

Gundam wrote:

Zarerion wrote:

In this thread, at least as many players disliked the overmapping.

*sigh* Why do you even bother? It's decided already, it's not like your complaining would change anything.

But the BAT is wrong.So we should correct it.

Stefan wrote:

And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye

you are right so it shoule be reranked.

Sieg wrote:

So epic thread, I must leave my 500th post here. cheers~

Xakyrie wrote:

Since when did ratings ever fully determine that argument? Do you even realize how skewed the ratings are when you compare it to map quality? Positive ratings does not support the use of overmap at all. Just question your skill and your reasons for rating.

Do you think accusations will do this any good? Please, be productive.

Xakyrie wrote:

Did you not read the previous posts? People, learn to read before you enter an argument otherwise you just look silly and foolish.