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ONE OK ROCK - The Beginning

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Total Posts
219
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Natteke
6,538 posts
Joined August 2009
Natteke
The Dance diff is pretty awesome and fun to play. I have no idea why you guys are attacking him over this

I'm just saying...

Loctav wrote:

You are supposed to create the perfect overlay of the song.
This map is an overlay of a song that is somehow not included in this mapset.
I could link you a thousand notes in a thousand maps that don't follow the music at all, you wouldn't listen though.
Last edited by Natteke , edited 1 time in total.
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

Zarerion wrote:

Flower wrote:

Nope. You are stating the rigid definition which does not fit all music games such as Taiko no Tasujin, DJMAX Technika, Groove Coaster, and of course Osu!. Music game is a concept that is to let common people enjoy making music without professional training, or enjoy rhythmic tapping. On this level, such triples is totally reasonable and is rather creative as they create a rhythm, even some of players don't like.
Just accept it, the BATs say it is unranakable in it current state.

Also 100% agree with Makar.

edit: wow i messed this post up lol
OK you dudes win. It is the rule so I won't discuss on the irrational actions taken by some team members. However, as to be obviously rankable, I will watch later progress on discussing and modification.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
Surely you don't think it matters who mapped what, do you? Wait sometimes it does /Let me rephrase
We don't attack the mapper, we only address the issues with the map.
Suzully
osu! Alumni
2,446 posts
Joined July 2010
Suzully
Please calm down people.

Please don't try to solve this problem just by saying "it is rankable because it is one of mapping style". If you claim so, we have to admit a map like consists all of 1/8 steams with BPM100 relax song. To prevent it happens, we set the standard. And also we are here.
I don't say we're perfect. But I think we have a better sense than other people. That's one of reason we're XAT.
Please discuss(not only claim) with us and try to find a way to make a map better.

I'm one who think Dance is overmapped.
The big space is used although there is unexcited place of the song. Especially after KIAI, for example 01:34:974 (1,2,3,4,5,6).
Many unnecessary notes are used. For example 01:09:001 (5,7,1), I don't know which sound they are following.
If you say they're used to design a map, I say no for it. Mapper should design a map with "variation of pattern", "unique rhythm", and etc. Many elements constitute a map. But using unnecessary notes to design a map is wrong.

Uhm...it is AM8 here...I can't reply until I'll be back to my home.
I hope we'll discuss constructively together.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
You guys speak as if there is only one way to map a song, lol. People interpret music differently, and mapping is a way to express your own interpretation of the song.

I'll take a look at the [Dance] diff later, but just wanted to throw this out first.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

CXu wrote:

You guys speak as if there is only one way to map a song, lol. People interpret music differently, and mapping is a way to express your own interpretation of the song.
Of course. But it goes overboard when a mapper suddenly thinks "this straight 1/2 drum beat was definitely meant to be 1/4; the performers just didn't play it like that but I'm free to interpret it however I want!"

Forgive me for the extreme example, but it seems we are having a hard time getting the point across to you guys.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,558 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Mm, Just looked at [Dance] and I guess the overmap is the chorus?
Actually, most of them play pretty well, similar to if the sliders were 3/4 instead of 1/2 + note.
Anyhow, you should fix this one somehow 01:13:781 (1,2,3,4) - . The spacing is really hard to read because of stacking, and iirc all other 1/4 jumps are stacks of two notes, so this is kind of a misfit imo.

Edit: Regarding spacing, what I get from the music is a powerful and somewhat fastpaced song. The spacing and SV fits fairly well for me. THEN AGAIN I enjoy most everything with huge spacing.
Last edited by CXu , edited 1 time in total.
Mythol
1,420 posts
Joined March 2011
Mythol
Hi~ just here to drop my opinion..
Despite being an overmapper myself, I have to say this map is ridiculous lol
01:08:588 (2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,1) - this is so beyond overmapped i don't even know :\
and many other parts that were already mentioned..
also all this huge spacing makes no sense to me ._.
I hope you can get this re-ranked after some fixes!
Last edited by Mythol , edited 1 time in total.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
If you fail to contribute to the thread, refrain from posting. Else you receive appropriate punishments.

Edit: deleted several posts.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha
Fix Cxu and Suzully‘s 01:34:974 (1,2,3,4,5,6) problem
then
you guys all talking about big space, unnecessary note
map need give player to play, this is why we make map
XATs is the people who need give mapper help to improve it and try to let player think it is interesting and fun to play
I put nodus in this map is ①big space ②Triples
and I really sure it is follow the rhythm
why you guys exclude the unnecessary note？it is always useful in my ranked map
no xat, please think about player's feeling
normal rhythm AHO and Kiiwa already use it, I want to use diff rhythm in Dance because it is high diff
I will not change many space and triple,and I still want to rank this map
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

tutuhaha wrote:

why you guys exclude the unnecessary note？it is always useful in my ranked map
...
I will not change many space and triple,and I still want to rank this map
If it's in the song, it's not unnecessary. It's a skill being able to listen to the music.
You can want as much as you want, nobody is stopping you from thinking any way you want. Whether you can convince us is another story.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
I'm going to give a personal opinion here, and you can agree or disagree.

It was not necessary to unrank this. The map has a high slider velocity, jumps and 1/4 patterns. tutuhaha mapped the song in this style, and this is her map. Some people will find it fun and some will not, but either way no one is forcing you to enjoy it. AngelHoney's difficulty, for example, is a reasonable alternative within the same mapset if you don't find the Dance difficulty to be playable. The supposed overmapping here isn't detracting from the map itself. It received 33 positive votes and 1 negative vote before unranking, and the BAT doesn't need to unrank the map over something that players aren't finding to be a problem and in reality is not a problem.
UnitedWeSin
889 posts
Joined July 2012
UnitedWeSin
While I respect the opinions of the XATs very much, I do firmly believe that "overmapping" is entirely an opinion, of course excluding extreme instances, which I do not believe this to be one of them. This map plays amazingly well to me. The jumps are so fluid, it's really enjoyable to play, just like Re:make was. After a few plays, the rhythm becomes quite readable, although for things like 01:16:665 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2) I do believe a better rhythm could have been used, but it's not an issue warrants unrank due to overmapping imho.
One complaint:
01:01:501 (1) - This circle is almost completely hidden by the previous slider 01:01:006 (2) so a lot of the time it leaves the player confused as to where the next note in the 01:01:501 (1,2,3,4) combo is. Better to make it more visible imo.

I just think this mapping is quite unique and epic, and I wouldn't want Tutuhaha to stop mapping in this style because of this unrank. -.-
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion
Overmapping is not an opinion. Overmapping is mapping notes in spots where there is no music, i.e. beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument. That is not an opinion.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

UnitedWeSin wrote:

While I respect the opinions of the XATs very much, I do firmly believe that "overmapping" is entirely an opinion, of course excluding extreme instances, which I do not believe this to be one of them. This map plays amazingly well to me. The jumps are so fluid, it's really enjoyable to play, just like Re:make was. After a few plays, the rhythm becomes quite readable, although for things like 01:16:665 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,1,2) I do believe a better rhythm could have been used, but it's not an issue warrants unrank due to overmapping imho.
One complaint:
01:01:501 (1) - This circle is almost completely hidden by the previous slider 01:01:006 (2) so a lot of the time it leaves the player confused as to where the next note in the 01:01:501 (1,2,3,4) combo is. Better to make it more visible imo.

I just think this mapping is quite unique and epic, and I wouldn't want Tutuhaha to stop mapping in this style because of this unrank. -.-
change it and thankyou

lolcubes wrote:

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion
Overmapping is not an opinion. Overmapping is mapping notes in spots where there is no music, i.e. beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument. That is not an opinion.
overmap is it up to XAT or Player？
If Player can listen it and follow the rhythm {beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument} which I use, it is sill overmap？
overmap can not be a point that XAT use to unrank
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare
the thing is, overmapping isn't exactly defined. Some call overmapping placing circles where nothing is in the music, as lolcubes said.
However others refer to overmapping as adding jumps where no belong or making the map too hard and unfitting.

Since both apply here (IMO), it doesn't really matter right now though.
UnitedWeSin
889 posts
Joined July 2012
UnitedWeSin

lolcubes wrote:

UnitedWeSin wrote:

"overmapping" is entirely an opinion
Overmapping is not an opinion. Overmapping is mapping notes in spots where there is no music, i.e. beats, melody, vocals or any other instrument. That is not an opinion.
Ok correction, "overmapping" always being a negative thing is entirely an opinion. I do not think that mappers should be forbidden from making the rhythm set more complicated, even if such a rhythm set isn't performed in the song note by note, as long as it makes sense rhythmically and people can follow it, which is the case here. Mapping like this can create a really unique experience imo if done correctly.
Pokie
osu! Alumni
2,630 posts
Joined December 2009
Pokie
I agree ShapphireGhost's point. Everyone had their own thought, forcing others to do something when they resist would just lead the whole thing to a bad side- and it actually happened here. I'd wonder why we can't use a gentle way, to get both side calmed and get the problem solved. :oops:
Kiiwa
928 posts
Joined January 2010
Kiiwa
Hey, in this set there are many difficulties that follow the rhythm to the best of the mappers abilities. So for Dance difficulty, can't the mapper create some unique rhythm?

I think it's unfair for a XAT to tell her to remake her whole difficultly even after all this modding because some 1/4's isn't in the music. If the map can still be played well, who cares?
Cyclohexane
osu! Alumni
4,568 posts
Joined May 2009
Cyclohexane
completely disregarding the whole overmapping argument I haven't even looked at the map tbh

wasn't this also unranked for bad timing? Shouldn't that be fixed?
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Please keep in mind that some stuff has already been changed.
Still gathering even more opinions and giving everyone the chance to express their thoughts before we start rechecking it.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?
Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
Kiiwa
928 posts
Joined January 2010
Kiiwa

those wrote:

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?
Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
You don't even say where in the map this is!
How the hell can anyone tell if this plays well or not if we can can't hear if for ourselves and can judge only off one picture?
What a stupid reply.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
The point is, you can put that anywhere on the map, and you can back it up with "I think it fits", where in reality this rhythm pattern doesn't appear ANYWHERE in this song.

Sorry for overestimating your ability, I should be more thorough in my explanations.
AngelHoney
2,155 posts
Joined May 2009
AngelHoney
you guys think its overmap :o
Andrea
Beatmap Nominator
16,650 posts
Joined August 2008
Andrea

Andrea wrote:

I don't like Dance difficulty, it's really too overmapped and destroys the mapset.
I told you that T_T
BrokenArrow
2,236 posts
Joined June 2010
BrokenArrow
And yet you ranked it
Last edited by BrokenArrow , edited 1 time in total.
SapphireGhost
osu! Alumni
2,618 posts
Joined June 2010
SapphireGhost
Kiiwa and those: Not all overmapping is bad to the same extent. I believe Kiiwa's point is that tutuhaha used overmapping in a way that was still reasonable and people found playable, and those's point is a general point against overmapping, that if you overmap to an extreme then it's not playable or fun.

Now, I think Kiiwa's response is a bit harshly worded, but I agree with her point that you can use overmapping to a certain extent without it becoming unplayable. You can see an example of unplayable overmapping in those's post, but it's not relevant to the extent of overmapping found in this map.

Like any mapping technique, you can use just some overmapping, or you can go too far. If I'm using new combo spam as a mapping technique, it can be done reasonably (example) or not (example). Overmapping is not inherently bad, but it is often done badly which is why people tend to draw that conclusion. As it pertains to this map, it's a question of whether it's being done reasonably or not, and in my opinion yes, it is and there wasn't a need to unrank it for that reason.
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
i just get this map and test some times, the map is really cool from all kinds of aspects when i'm standing in the point of view of a normal player.

should the power to make decision not be grasped by most players? what i want to express is that people (who has ability to play Dance diff) is enjoy the experience during the play mostly. since we can all heard there are most strong beat from drum, the style of this diff can integrate the emotion of people into the song, the rhythm, also including the lyric.. these things are all the part of the song and also can not be express by the beat we can only find in the vocal or instrument.
those
3,136 posts
Joined November 2010
those
A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam

those wrote:

Kiiwa wrote:

If the map can still be played well, who cares?
Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
I can't find it in this map. can you point it?


those wrote:

The point is, you can put that anywhere on the map, and you can back it up with "I think it fits", where in reality this rhythm pattern doesn't appear ANYWHERE in this song.
You should try to play DJMAX TECHNIKA then you will change your mind.

Why a beatmap has many diff?
I think the key point is:RHYTHM
basic diff's rhythm is sparse but higher diff's rhythm intensive.For example,jubeat's Basic,Advanced and Extreme,DJMAX TECHNIKA's Normal,Hard and Maximum.In Extreme or Maximum,there are so much rhythm pattern(can't find in the song),but nobody think it's unplayable or overmap.I think this map is analogous,you know,Rating of the map is 9.6,it means that this map is playable.A map is playable or no is depends on most of player instead of some BAT/MAT.

so,rerank it plz.


edit:

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Why is such a player with little judgement skill to be elected as a Team member? Who did this?
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
someone always force his mind into others. ;)

anyway. *support for rerank
AngelHoney
2,155 posts
Joined May 2009
AngelHoney
Loctav unranked, 10058pc , 3 ranked maps ，83 kds ，cool~
and why you think overmapped = unplayable ?
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Gundam wrote:

Imagine this plays well:


You get the point.
I can't find it in this map. can you point it?
It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.

Why a beatmap has many diff?
I think the key point is:RHYTHM
basic diff's rhythm is sparse but higher diff's rhythm intensive.For example,jubeat's Basic,Advanced and Extreme,DJMAX TECHNIKA's Normal,Hard and Maximum.In Extreme or Maximum,there are so much rhythm pattern(can't find in the song),but nobody think it's unplayable or overmap.I think this map is analogous,you know,Rating of the map is 9.6,it means that this map is playable.A map is playable or no is depends on most of player instead of some BAT/MAT.

so,rerank it plz.
This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
edit:

those wrote:

A response like this usually means one or both of two things: you think the MAT/BAT teams are unnecessary, and/or you forget MAT/BAT are players.
Why is such a player with little judgement skill to be elected as a Team member? Who did this?
How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
Strawberry
osu! Alumni
1,536 posts
Joined October 2010
Strawberry
@Zarerion: overmap is a style, where you found "too much" here? also, same as DJMAX, remember osu! is also the mug. you can't defeat all that Gundam said. btw, what's your certain standards?
Flower
1,723 posts
Joined August 2011
Flower

Zarerion wrote:

It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.
I am sorry, but this picture explains nearly nothing. As SG mentioned, the extreme example does not prove impropriety of overmap conditions in the diff.

This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
It is not decided by a certain BAT as human is not perfect. The rating before unrank is overwhelmingly positive, whitch means this overmap does not affect playing. On the contrary, simply following the existing drum and vocal is quite plain, less creative and will get less rating, as I suggested.


How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
lol Do you think this question is based on nothing?
Zare
1,512 posts
Joined March 2012
Zare

Strawberry wrote:

@Zarerion: overmap is a style, where you found "too much" here? also, same as DJMAX, remember osu! is also the mug. you can't defeat all that Gundam said. btw, what's your certain standards?
I already did bring up some parts in the map I dislike.
In my opinion, this map didn't play well because of overmapping, too high spacing and unneeded jumps. (As well as totally broken flow, but that's something which is really up to the mapper)

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.
Gundam
136 posts
Joined January 2011
Gundam
It's obvious what he means, really. He isn't talking about a specific part in the map.
he even explained what he meant in an earlier post. learn to read before joining an argument.
But now we are talk about this map,and I can't find it anywhere on the map.



This isn't DJMAX though, this is osu!, and we have certain standards. Overmapping is acceptable to a certain extent, but it was just too much here, it simply didn't fit anymore, and since the BAT were agreeing on that, they unranked it.
DJMAX is a music game,so is osu!.Overmapping is too much here?why it can be ranked?




How was that an inappropriate answer? don't you think you're going too far, insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?
Insulting XAT's with no apparent reason?hehe,I don't think so.Maybe you should read page3~page8 SERIOUSLY
Last edited by Gundam , edited 1 time in total.
tutuhaha
3,000 posts
Joined October 2010
Topic Starter
tutuhaha

Zarerion wrote:

And the certain standards are defined by the BATs. Why? because they supposedly have the most mapping and modding experience, and if the majority of them agrees about a map being pretty much unplayable, they most likely have a point about that map having serious issues.
Now many people agree this is playable so this is not the point
Stefan
Global Moderator
10,393 posts
Joined January 2011
Stefan
And then people wonder about bad Maps. Honestly, by getting some more accurate Mods and Testplays you could avoid this.. But why do I write it? Nobody cares about it. So ignore this thxbye
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