Echo wrote:

@derekku: then lynch strager today and me tomorrow. It's not like you can lynch two people on the same day. If we're both mafia, it won't make a difference. I don't mind dying, if it'll help townies win. It's a team game after all.

Echo wrote:

@strager: then tell me why anyone should be listening to you.

strager wrote:

Derekku Chan wrote:

That means you are mafia? :<

I am not a Mafia.

0_o wrote:

Echo wrote:

0_o wrote:

So.. you are saying that the mafia is incapable of coming up with a valid reason to lynch someone?

That is exactly what I'm saying. There should be no evidence in posts against townies, which means mafia won't be able to bring up a valid reason to lynch a townie.

Why not? Humans come up with "evidence" against other humans to lynch them, the only difference is that the mafia actually knows that they are lynching a human.

Echo wrote:

You're refusing to defend yourself against my evidence, and you're refusing to bring any evidence against me, yet you claim you are townie and I am mafia?

I think the simple answer is that there is no evidence you can use to defend yourself, and there is no evidence you can bring against me. Which means you are mafia, and I am townie.

Echo wrote:

Townies will be able to convincingly bring evidence to show that the evidence used against them is misguided.

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

You're refusing to defend yourself against my evidence, and you're refusing to bring any evidence against me, yet you claim you are townie and I am mafia?

I think the simple answer is that there is no evidence you can use to defend yourself, and there is no evidence you can bring against me. Which means you are mafia, and I am townie.

That doesn't explain this at all:

Echo wrote:

@strager: then tell me why anyone should be listening to you.

which is what I asked about.

You're saying even if I defend myself I shouldn't be believed, and even if I attack you I shouldn't be believed?

1. Assume what everyone is saying is true
2. Find evidence to show that a person is likely lying. From this point on assume everything he says is false.
3. That person defends himself.
4. Given that the person does so convincingly, assume from this point on everything he says is true. Otherwise, he is likely mafia and should be lynched.

Echo wrote:

Stop twisting my words.

Echo wrote:

I'm saying if you can't defend yourself, then there is no reason why anyone should believe what you say. If you can defend yourself, then that proves you're not mafia, and what you say holds legitimate value.

Echo wrote:

1. Assume what everyone is saying is true
2. Find evidence to show that a person is likely lying. From this point on assume everything he says is false.
3. That person defends himself.
4. Given that the person does so convincingly, assume from this point on everything he says is true. Otherwise, he is likely mafia and should be lynched.

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

I'm saying if you can't defend yourself, then there is no reason why anyone should believe what you say. If you can defend yourself, then that proves you're not mafia, and what you say holds legitimate value.

I'm sure a Mafia can convincingly defend themself too, smart one.

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

1. Assume what everyone is saying is true
2. Find evidence to show that a person is likely lying. From this point on assume everything he says is false.
3. That person defends himself.
4. Given that the person does so convincingly, assume from this point on everything he says is true. Otherwise, he is likely mafia and should be lynched.

And this logic has gotten you how far in Mafia games?

And this logic has gotten you how far in Mafia games?

nardi11011 wrote:

Echo wrote:

よろしくおねがいしま～す

QFT

like i know what it means

nardi11011 wrote:

Anyway, I'm keeping my vote on strager as he just seems to be acting too strange to me.

nardi11011 wrote:

Especially his very first slip-up doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of his posts, as I don't see why someone would rather risk dying the first night than lie about their role.

nardi11011 wrote:

Holy shit, 6 pages? I hate timezones. Anyway, I'm keeping my vote on strager as he just seems to be acting too strange to me. Especially his very first slip-up doesn't seem to fit in with the rest of his posts, as I don't see why someone would rather risk dying the first night than lie about their role. I don't see anyone else as overly suspicious, so I'm not changing my vote.

also,

Echo wrote:

よろしくおねがいしま～す

QFT

like i know what it means

BagelBob wrote:

0_o, who are you voting for right now? That last one was only 80% there.

0_o wrote:

BagelBob wrote:

0_o, who are you voting for right now? That last one was only 80% there.

I'm indifferent on whether we lynch nardi or adam, and nardi hasn't said anything that would convince me to change my vote, so for now, my vote stands.

0_o wrote:

strager wrote:

Derekku Chan wrote:

That means you are mafia? :<

I am not a Mafia.

Funny, that's exactly what someone who is in the mafia would say

vote stra-

lol

0_o wrote:

EDIT: and if you think about it, his theory on strager's bandwagon (Echo, SFG, adam, nardi) does make some sense. Wouldn't you think a mafia member would jump at the chance to lynch the potential doctor? I think it's very likely that both of the mafia members are in that group.

0_o wrote:

That vote for you was a joke, I obviously wouldn't defend you this whole time, then vote for you because you said you weren't mafia

And I'm voting for him because as I've already said

0_o wrote:

EDIT: and if you think about it, his theory on strager's bandwagon (Echo, SFG, adam, nardi) does make some sense. Wouldn't you think a mafia member would jump at the chance to lynch the potential doctor? I think it's very likely that both of the mafia members are in that group.

I'm not confident enough to vote Echo and I believe SFG is a townie. So I'm fine with either nardi or adam, and since nardi is already on L-2, then well, there you go. I'm not going to split the vote between 2 people who I think should be lynched.

BagelBob wrote:

Which actions/posts make you believe that Echo and SFG are townies?
They both voted for strager, just like nardi and adam, who you believe is the doctor.

strager wrote:

0_o, IMO voting because of the number of votes on one's head isn't a good idea for a Townie (only a Mafia because a Mafia knows if he's lynching a Townie or not). If you are split between nardi and adam you'll need another reason to vote for one or the other. If you stick to your vote for nardi solely to keep him at L-1 without another reason I'm more incline to believe you are a Mafia. (This is supported by you avoiding voting on Echo.)

BagelBob wrote:

Which actions/posts make you believe that Echo and SFG are townies?
They both voted for strager, just like nardi and adam, who you believe is the doctor.

0_o wrote:

1) I don't think he would quit if he was mafia

0_o wrote:

2) why would he lie if he is quitting?

strager wrote:

0_o, IMO voting because of the number of votes on one's head isn't a good idea for a Townie (only a Mafia because a Mafia knows if he's lynching a Townie or not). If you are split between nardi and adam you'll need another reason to vote for one or the other. If you stick to your vote for nardi solely to keep him at L-1 without another reason I'm more incline to believe you are a Mafia. (This is supported by you avoiding voting on Echo.)

0_o wrote:

First of all, he's at L-2 - Bagelbob retracted his vote

0_o wrote:

I'm not really split between them, I'm indifferent between them. I would be just as happy voting off adam as I would nardi. And since nardi is the more likely candidate right now, it would be pointless to vote for adam since that would just make it more difficult to lynch nardi, whom I believe is just as likely to be mafia as adam.
I hope that made sense?

strager wrote:

Echo wrote:

Echo wrote:

Whereas I've conjured up a single sentence with enough evidence to send you to kingdom come, none of which you've satisfactorily defended against, you've brought none of my posts against me.

I would like you to do two things:

1. refute my 3 points in the linked post
2. attack me with my posts

Well you're not getting it.

Echo wrote:

You're trying to bring suspicion onto someone who is obviously townie. Now why would you do that?

strager wrote:

SFG's first vote on me was just a bandwagon vote it seems, because I was the more suspicious.
SFG's second vote on me was a misunderstanding: viewtopic.php?p=141154#p141154

Echo wrote:

Can someone explain to me why we just jumped to voting for nardi when strager has been so suspicious and refusing to defend himself?

Derekku Chan wrote:

But as one of you said: If a townie gets lynched that didn't contribute in the first place, it wouldn't even be a loss. :<

Echo wrote:

I just fear I won't be around to lynch a mafia :X

0_o wrote:

Echo is coming out very strongly this game, and while he does have that level of suspicion, he can also be very useful if he is pro-town. I don't want to lynch him yet because the potential of Echo being a strong asset for the town is greater than my suspicion that he is mafia.

0_o wrote:

Now adam and nardi on the other hand, haven't been contributing a whole lot to the game, so as opposed to the case with Echo, there isn't much risk in lynching them.

0_o wrote:

There are a few more specific reasons that I don't want to lynch Echo yet, but I can't say them here because I don't want these reasons to be visible to the mafia.

strager wrote:

0_o wrote:

Echo is coming out very strongly this game, and while he does have that level of suspicion, he can also be very useful if he is pro-town. I don't want to lynch him yet because the potential of Echo being a strong asset for the town is greater than my suspicion that he is mafia.

That reasoning goes both ways really. That is, he could be a major asset to the Mafia.
That's true, but again I have other reasons for keeping him around that I can't let the mafia be aware of.

0_o wrote:

Now adam and nardi on the other hand, haven't been contributing a whole lot to the game, so as opposed to the case with Echo, there isn't much risk in lynching them.

So there isn't much rick in lynching me either?
If you read my next sentence you would see..

0_o wrote:

If it turns out they aren't mafia, it wouldn't be as much of a loss to the town as Echo and strager would if they were pro-town.

You are risky to lynch because of the possibility you are the doctor.

0_o wrote:

There are a few more specific reasons that I don't want to lynch Echo yet, but I can't say them here because I don't want these reasons to be visible to the mafia.

Because you know things we don't I'm more inclined to think you are a Mafia.
Unless you discovered these reasons through real reasoning, of course.
I don't have evidence per se, but theories of how the mafia will behave (not on how they are behaving now). I obviously can't openly discuss these theories, because the mafia of course will see them and act accordingly.

0_o wrote:

0_o wrote:

Now adam and nardi on the other hand, haven't been contributing a whole lot to the game, so as opposed to the case with Echo, there isn't much risk in lynching them.

So there isn't much rick in lynching me either?
If you read my next sentence you would see..

0_o wrote:

If it turns out they aren't mafia, it wouldn't be as much of a loss to the town as Echo and strager would if they were pro-town.

You are risky to lynch because of the possibility you are the doctor.

strager wrote:

0_o wrote:

0_o wrote:

Now adam and nardi on the other hand, haven't been contributing a whole lot to the game, so as opposed to the case with Echo, there isn't much risk in lynching them.

So there isn't much rick in lynching me either?
If you read my next sentence you would see..

0_o wrote:

If it turns out they aren't mafia, it wouldn't be as much of a loss to the town as Echo and strager would if they were pro-town.

You are risky to lynch because of the possibility you are the doctor.

I see that, but it wasn't in that one sentence (only Echo was) so I got a bit suspicious...

Echo wrote:

I think lynching nardi is a mistake.

Echo wrote:

I'm inclined to think 0_o

0_o wrote:

Sure I would try to keep him alive, but I would do it passively by pushing someone else, not by swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

strager wrote:

0_o wrote:

Sure I would try to keep him alive, but I would do it passively by pushing someone else, not by swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

But that's an obvious Scum tell, if you're carefully read (and since you don't have TOO many posts I wouldn't think it'd be difficult to read).

I have to agree, though, and the buddying is kinda annoying. I understand you trust me but we don't have to be friends for that. ;P

0_o wrote:

strager wrote:

0_o wrote:

Sure I would try to keep him alive, but I would do it passively by pushing someone else, not by swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

But that's an obvious Scum tell, if you're carefully read (and since you don't have TOO many posts I wouldn't think it'd be difficult to read).

What? Proposing to lynch someone who isn't being grilled is scum tell? So you are saying that one should just agree with what the majority of people are saying... but oh wait, that's bandwagoning. And hey look, isn't that scum tell too?

0_o wrote:

swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

BagelBob wrote:

0_o wrote:

swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

Maybe that's what you meant?

nardi11011 wrote:

2. One of the reasons I don't post too much is because most of the actual "conversations" happen at times when I'm unable to reply. So all I can do is post my opinion after reading everything that has been said, which hasn't changed much.

nardi11011 wrote:

My suspicion for strager comes from the fact that while he seems like a smart guy, a lot of his posts have been pretty vague and I think it's stupid to admit your role on the first day.

adam2046 wrote:

Still voting strager

adam2046 wrote:

I can think of another~

adam2046 wrote:

I hope you're looking at the right PM...

BagelBob wrote:

Echo wrote:
edit:
note to everyone: I've probably made just as many posts as strager has. If I can pick holes in strager's arguments and claims, then any lies, inconsistencies or logical fallacies I've made should also be just as evident. I encourage you to through and confirm or deny, for yourself, the authenticity of my train of thought.


Well, if you insist.

Echo wrote:
So now you're admitting cop? General rule: first to mention cop in any way is cop themselves.

I was going to vote you now, but since you're suggesting you're cop now, I'll let you defend yourself first.

I've never heard of this rule. Furthermore, I feel as though you're putting words in his mouth. He never claimed to be the cop, and you were the first person who said he was the doc.


Also, I'd like to point out.
Echo wrote:
First, you claim an important role.
viewtopic.php?p=139874#p139874
Echo wrote:
Firstly, strager never claimed doctor.
viewtopic.php?p=139897#p139897
Echo wrote:
First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed.
viewtopic.php?p=140180#p140180

Thus, I repeat

BagelBob wrote:
Echo, could you point me to where strager claims?



However, I don't want to give the wrong idea. I agree with most of the things you've said about strager(one disagreement is that when he gives up, you think that's more scummy while I think it doesn't show anything but fatigue while another is that I'd like to give him more credit than doubt for backing off his claim that he should consider adam town for the day rather than have him continue pushing that adam is still town). But everything else looks right on the money.

I'd also like to add
strager wrote:
Saying I am defending myself (however implicitly) is baseless. So I'll completely disregard your attacks on my defense.

That statement both implies that you were not defending yourself and states that you have a defense.


Oh, and Derekuu-Chan, this is a summery, not a suspicion list. However, I feel that I should apologize. I forgot that sarcasm can't be conveyed over the internets.
When I said before
BagelBob wrote:
I Vote Kuu for lying! This is NO wolf game!

It was in response to
kuu wrote:
I FORGOT AM I INVITED HERE---OH RIGHT IT'S THE WOLF GAME IM NOT IN.

Where I meant to show that kuu was lying about being in the game. Trying to stay low on the radar or just being kuu? I'll never know.

And any parodies I do are for my own amusement. If they should happen to point out a newbie mistake that could be a scum-tell, so be it.

BagelBob wrote:

First, I want to finish up what I started.
I believe this is the full list concerning the doktor.

s: The Doctor PM says "If your protection is successful" -- does this mean the protection can fail? Or does it mean that the protection fails if the Mafia did not target the person you targeted?
E: Doesn't that mean you're doctor >.>
E: dammit WHY do the doctors always need to expose themselves on the first day?
s: D= I didn't mean to.
E: strager hasn't even role claimed - I said he was doctor
D: Sounds like he confirmed it to me. >_>
E: That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion.
E: First, you claim an important role.
E: Firstly, strager never claimed doctor. He just went with what I said. The real doctor would have tried to cover it up. strager, on the other hand, admitted it straight away.
E: First, I suggested that strager was doctor, to which he immediately confirmed. The real doctor wouldn't have wanted to expose himself - he'd die night 1 and the whole town would be in a bit of trouble.
BB: Echo, could you post where strager role claims?
E: viewtopic.php?p=139263#p139263 (s: D= I didn't mean to.)
When I say he "claimed" doctor, I was referring to this incident in the post above. I merely suggested he was doctor, and he "claimed" it by saying he "didn't mean to". As (I think) I've pointed out before, strager didn't claim doctor explicitly, which is what I mean by him not "claiming" doctor.

What I learned from all of this is that I didn't read thoroughly enough. It turns out that that second time that Echo says firstly, he expands it to say that he did admit the claim soon. The only part that isn't exactly consistent now is "That's not a claim, it's a passing suggestion", but that's negligible.

Result: strager has claimed to be the doc (by which I mean that I won't say it's too suspicious)

Also, FOS, is a Finger of Suspicion. It's a way of saying that you think someone is a candidate for lynching, but not as strong as a vote.(feel free to say I'm wrong about the weight, Echo, you are the one who used it)

strager wrote:
By the "defense" I meant Echo accusing me of using my role claim as a Doctor to defend myself. I didn't mean defending myself against his arguments.

This confuses me so much, I'll probably end up dropping it unless I can make sense of it when I wake up.

I don't know where you got the idea that I think having the doktor role-claim on the first day is a good idea. I distinctly remember saying "I dislike role claims", and you first quoting me about it, then doing an analysis earlier. Seriously, short term- Hey look, a butterfly!

However, I do like the idea of a fake-claim of the doktor, like I thought Suburu and kuu were doing in WW2. I've seen it work before, and I know it has the potential to be really great.

strager wrote:

----------

Echo seems to be super defensive of adam in his latest next-to-latest post. Why? I'm not pointing my finger at him.

I re-read that post and I don't think Echo is being even slightly defensive of adam.
In fact, he says specifically "None of adam's posts in any way indicate that he is townie"
I don't know how you came up with this, would you care to explain?

lulz @ adam for the Monty Python reference

I still consider strager my major suspect at the moment, and I don't see the reasons why Echo is backing off.

However, I think we still have ~6 days left to decide things, so I'm not ready to lynch him yet. I'd really like to hear a bit more from SFG(with her amazing 1 post), Olinad(with double that), and nardii(with a record 3) before doing anything that can't be reversed.

strager wrote:

Damnit, I think I made a mistake.

I know someone was questioning SFG, but I guess it wasn't BagelBob.

Unvote until I find out who it was (or I'm convinced to vote for someone else).

#forumshit wrote:

19:33 < SFG|Rh> hey Subi can i ask BagelBob if i summarized his posts correctly or is that a no-no
19:33 < strager|irc> SFG|Rh: In M2?
19:33 < SFG|Rh> yeah
19:33 < BagelBob> and can I ask who the mafiosi are?
19:33 < BagelBob> I'm dead anyway
19:33 < strager|irc> SFG|Rh: As long as no one notices you misquoted everything you're fine =]
19:33 < strager|irc> SFG|Rh: Misquotes (intentional or not) are legal if that's what you're asking
19:33 < SFG|Rh> misquoted everything?
19:33 < strager|irc> Was kidding
19:34 < SFG|Rh> i was gonna say
19:34 < strager|irc> Not sure why you would think it'd be illegal otherwise though
19:34 < SFG|Rh> how do you misquote with ctrl-v
19:34 < BagelBob> I was gonna say, discussion needs to take place in the thread
19:34 < SFG|Rh> because Bobby is dead
19:34 < BagelBob> Oops, sorry adam
19:34 < BagelBob> I need to kill a "Spirit Dragon"
19:34 < BagelBob> I think spirit implies that it's already dead
19:34 < adam2046> oh
19:34 < LadySuburu> Yeah, you can't ask bobby. If you did something wrong leave it to the others to find it and
point it out
19:34 < LadySuburu> lol
19:34 < adam2046> <caps>motherfucker!</caps>
19:35 < strager|irc> Oh BagelBob's dead?
19:35 < adam2046> runningrunningruninng
19:35 < LadySuburu> @strager: Did you skip the deathscene entirely?
19:35 < strager|irc> eh?
19:35 < LadySuburu> Did you even notice D1 ended?
19:35 < LadySuburu> and N1?
19:35 < BagelBob> fasdf
19:35 < strager|irc> x___________x
19:36 < strager|irc> lol apparently I used his death as an excuse to vote for SFG
19:36 < strager|irc> wtf xD
19:36 < strager|irc> I don't even remember that
19:36 < strager|irc> gah
19:36 < SFG|Rh> of course
19:36 < strager|irc> Well I don't remember voting for him
19:36 < SFG|Rh> strager is digging his hole deeper and deeper
19:37 < strager|irc> I saw your post SFG
19:37 < SFG|Rh> i just posted again
19:37 < strager|irc> yeah saw

#forumshit wrote:

19:39 < SFG|Rh> if strager isnt mafia ill eat my hat

Bagelbob wrote:

0_o wrote:
swooping to his rescue whenever someone makes an assusation.

Maybe that's what you meant?

0_o wrote:

I think I've been slightly misrepresented by SFG's analysis, since it doesn't include answers to his comments/"accusations", and if you look through I've had perfectly legitimate responses to all of his questions.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

despite strangers insistance that he wanted to kill ME

strager wrote:

BagelBob was most suspicious of SFG, which may mean SFG killed him.

0_o wrote:

I can't find anywhere where Bagelbob attacks SFG.. link/quote?

0_o wrote:

But yeah, anyway
vote adam
and you all know why by now

adam2046 wrote:

0_o wrote:

But yeah, anyway
vote adam
and you all know why by now

I don't.

strager wrote:

adam2046 wrote:

0_o wrote:

But yeah, anyway
vote adam
and you all know why by now

I don't.

I don't either.

Saturos-fangirl wrote:

maybe b/c adam and nardi were supposedly mafia mates? inno

0_o wrote:

And I'm voting for nardi because as I've already said

0_o wrote:

EDIT: and if you think about it, his theory on strager's bandwagon (Echo, SFG, adam, nardi) does make some sense. Wouldn't you think a mafia member would jump at the chance to lynch the potential doctor? I think it's very likely that both of the mafia members are in that group.

I'm not confident enough to vote Echo and I believe SFG is a townie. So I'm fine with either nardi or adam, and since nardi is already on L-2, then well, there you go. I'm not going to split the vote between 2 people who I think should be lynched.

0_o wrote:

and now nardi's gone. who does that leave?

strager wrote:

Unvote
Vote: 0_o

0_o wrote:

strager wrote:

Unvote
Vote: 0_o

woah, what? where did that come from?

0_o wrote:

Oh come on, if I were mafia with him I wouldn't have made my defence of him so obvious. Although again, I've already gone through this here.

I would really like to hear from strager right now, cause I'm really starting to have doubts about my entire thought process about him... if he really was the doctor then why would he target the person who believes (or believed) him the most?