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OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
<- Using this post for newest changes, discussions or other iportand things about the rules ->

~Changes~

Date, section, suggester

[04.29., 13:20] Korean translation avaible!
[04.29., 10:35] Finish Notes rule change for more clarification - POST
[04.29., 07:30] Japanes translation avaible!
[04.28., 10:42] ,,BPM Changes" section has been added into Guidelines again - OnosakiHito
[04.28., 10:42] ,,Overlapping notes" section has been deleted from rules again due to less discussion - OnosakiHito
[04.10., 11:19] Chinese translation avaible!
[04.09., 16:35] Finish Notes rule has been changed a bit. - [community]
[03.07., 20:33] New recommentation added: Reasonable hitobject-placement - POST
[02.27., 20:06] New guideline added: Diff. Name - OnosakiHito
[02.22., 19:45] Three sections are avaible now: Rules, Guidelines, recommendations - Look at first post!
[02.22., 17:32] Custom Hitsounds - added one sentence - POST
[02.22., 17:32] BPM changes - edited sentence - POST
[02.22., 17:32] Spinner - deleted the sentence ,,Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row" - POST
[02.22., 17:32] Finish Notes - sentence changed to ,,...8-plet or 5-plets long not complex 1/4 stream..." - OnosakiHito
[02.22., 17:32] Difficulty Settings and Song Setup - added to use another HP drain rate when the map is really long - POST
[01.23., 19:01] Added new information/reminder into this thread - POST
[01.22., 19:20] Added the section Rest Moments - OnosakiHito
[01.22., 18:24] Custom Hitsounds - recommended changed to forbidden use of ,,soft" sound sample - Sakura Hana


~Discussions~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat



~Other informations~

One more importand information about the organization here:
Please help me keeping this thread clean by avoiding giving useless posts. I would be thankfull for this.

Searching for: People who could translate this into Korean.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 21 times in total.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
Discussed with ono and aabc before this is posted, so I would agree on these stuffs.

making a note here that the part "BPM changes" simply refers to the rules of solo diffs.
KanaRin
1,886 posts
Joined April 2010
KanaRin
Support, Haha.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
In Taiko no Tatsujin most songs are pretty short, however in osu! we get longer songs considering the HP gain in Taiko is based off the number of hitobjects I'd recommend dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song, rather than the difficulty of the map.

Soft sampleset should never be used as with Taiko skin it shows a super really low volume that more often than not, blends with the music (I've seen it happen to almost every Taiko map i mod).
Shiirn
2,896 posts
Joined August 2010
Shiirn
I like how Kanon-Kanon has become the #1 referral point for "manipulating slider velocities to make bpm changes readable".
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Sakura Hana wrote:

In Taiko no Tatsujin most songs are pretty short, however in osu! we get longer songs considering the HP gain in Taiko is based off the number of hitobjects I'd recommend dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song, rather than the difficulty of the map.

Soft sampleset should never be used as with Taiko skin it shows a super really low volume that more often than not, blends with the music (I've seen it happen to almost every Taiko map i mod).
Agree. Soft hitsound is significantly softer even S 100%. So as to eliminate problem caused due to soft hitsound we can simply set hitsounds to N only :3
Last edited by wmfchris , edited 3 times in total.
Backfire
3,205 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
My map on cosmos would be a good reference for the slider velocity thing, but I went all the way to 1.0 from what I recall.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
I agree with Sakura Hana's two points. I will add this pretty soon and write down the edits in the second post.

@Backfire&Shiirn: I will add them if it is needed.

Wow, people are quite active right now. Didn't expect this *smile*.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Great support! If these are subjects to make a map rankable in taiko, Im fine with it. I wonder if we should discuss about reasonable hitobject-placement here, too. >:
Backfire
3,205 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
Btw, you should say that it's reccomended to use claps, not whistles. They're easier to hear.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris

Backfire wrote:

Btw, you should say that it's reccomended to use claps, not whistles. They're easier to hear.
If soft hitsound is banned, I think normal whistle is clearly auidible.

This is the translated ver. (Chinese)
SPOILER
歌曲/難度設定
正常來說每首歌都有適合歌曲的設定，例如低OD適合較易的圖。建議OD 5~7
留意圈圈大小(CS)和出現速度(AR)不影響太鼓譜

倒數
太鼓譜不可用倒數。如有需要可以加空白時間(audio lead-in time)

滑條速度(SV)
正常來說滑條速度應為1.4~1.6, 這裡指整體大致上的滑條速度。1.4為正常歌曲的滑條速度，而1.6為較慢的歌曲的滑條速度。
在較快而做成BPM*0.5的圖中滑條速度可以更慢，建議在1.2或以下。
當然，滑條速度的設定亦需考慮令玩家更易讀譜。

大圓
不應放大圓在1/4 1/6 1/8的連打(包括連打的頭尾)，因為玩家理論上需用雙指打大圓，但連打令其打不了大圓。
唯一的例在是在5連/8連或以上的連打結尾而重音是清晰可聽的。在連續的連打中大圓不宜連續出現，而在有包含大圓的連打中建議滑條速度用1.6(減少重疊令譜面更好讀)

連打
在大部分情況下只應用1/1 1/2 1/4連打，而1/3 1/6只應在音樂有類似節奏下出現，建議在使用1/3 1/6前問一下資深的做圖玩家。

Kiai time(？)
建議只在副歌部分擺放，不要用這個製造閃的效果。

黃色滑條
需和其他物件保持1/2拍距離，不要連續擺放滑條。在BPM125或以下的歌盡量不要放滑條，因為那會變成1/8打擊點，從而與歌曲不配合。
不應在靜的部份放滑條，因為滑條就是1/4連打。

風車音符(Spinner)
需和其他物件保持1/2拍距離，不建議使用短風車音符，因為那只會擋住玩家視線和很吵而沒實際用處。例外：在1/4 1/6 1/8連打完結位置可立刻放風車音符。

BPM設定
(就是跟Osu!譜一樣。 orz)

休息(Break)
休息部分需在.osu中移除，但如果有必要(而歌曲許可)，你可以留空該段地方。
(註：休息部分是指有通關/不通關圖案顯示，空白地方啥都沒有)

自定義連打圖案(？)
這會被玩家自己的自定義皮膚蓋過，所以沒用也不用放。

自定義音效
對太鼓譜無效，所以不用在太鼓譜放自定義音效；建議整首歌的音效大小差不多而清晰可聞。
Soft音效在太鼓譜中很小聲，所以整首之音效應為Normal音效。
留意音效最好比音樂大聲一點。

~建議~

自定義物件顏色
這與打圖的效果無關，但把咚(d)設成紅色，喀(k)設成藍色會很放便modder。
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

Sakura Hana wrote:

I'd recommend dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song, rather than the difficulty of the map.
However, some short songs can have a lot of notes (Rotter's Inner Oni) and longer have less (The Lazy song from what I recall has 500 notes for 3')

HP Drain 5 is recommended for most maps, but as soon as we get more than 3000 notes, we REALLY have to drop until 0 if needed. I tried once to drop until 0 in my All Stars songs, and that is awkward (It has a really high amount of notes, around 15k iirc.) since at ~30% of the song on auto the bar is at its fullest (I think)



I might put a French translation too, if there are french mappers who want to try it out.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Seams like the point with HP will need some more thoughts. Anyway, for now I have edit some things, and added also a new rule(see it in the first post).

@Gezo: This would be nice if you would do that. Since i'm going to put a german translation too. But please don't forget, the translations would need to be updated, too.
omegaflo
196 posts
Joined March 2009
omegaflo
Okay okay let's see :

The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 should be used
Hmm why not, all maps will look exacly the same, but well, seems good for me

Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
Only for mono-HS ending streams (XXXkd or XXXdk) don't want to have ddddD or kkkkK please >.>

Note Streams
For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the music.
Information: Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
I've laugh'd SO FREAKIN HARD
This really made my day srsly

I'll remember this on some maps dude ahah !

Kiai Time
Use the kiai time just in the choruses of a song. Do not use short "flashes" of kiai like you might use in an osu! standard map.
Ofc, Kiai is quite distrubing on taiko, even with the imporvement, no kiai fountain, so flashes are really useless

- Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower since it gives 1/8 rills, and probably most songs dosen't contain 1/8 beats.
On TnT drumrolls are just bonus spamming points, 125 1/8 aren't hard, and fill with ANY 1/4 sounds >.>, but if 1/8 seems SO bad ;_;

Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
Agree with this, instead of overmapping blank part on the song, break should be manually removed (don't know if it's possible btw >.>

Making rules for taiko maps is cool, yeah...

But i REALLY don't want to have the same maps again and again... on standard mode, this is easily avoidable (differant placement, spacing, etc etc,...) But on taiko we will have SO MANY mainstream maps... and that's why i can aggre on some guidelines, but the use of 1/3 1/6 and sliders should not be restricted, really...

My 2 cents
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

omegaflo wrote:

Only for mono-HS ending streams (XXXkd or XXXdk) don't want to have ddddD or kkkkK please >.>
It's possible for me... why wouldn't it be possible for others ?

Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower since it gives 1/8 rills, and probably most songs dosen't contain 1/8 beats.
Oh yeah I didn't mention that. Some 125~130 BPM maps also have that kind of roll, and some under 125 have 1/4 stuff. As long as it doesn't hit 1,000 BPM streaming I would put them, but I agree if this can be EASILY DT'd without them (190 1/8 are just EW)
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
From what I can tell drumrolls don't have ticks in TnT. Do you still have to hit them in time, or is it like a balloon note (spinner)?

I still think you taiko players are scared of jacks. DDDDD is not hard to do at 140 bpm 1/4ths. kdDkK isn't either at even faster bpms. KDKDK is just plain simple at any bpm. The problem in that case is reading the finish notes, due to the fact that they're bigger than other notes and you're just not plain used to reading/playing them (which is stupid, but I supposed that's your version of eggpain).

Backfire wrote:

Btw, you should say that it's reccomended to use claps, not whistles. They're easier to hear.
is that for ease of modding or does it have some effect in gameplay? Whistles are smaller than claps.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

omegaflo wrote:

Okay okay let's see :

The Slider Velocitys, 1.40 and 1.60 should be used
Hmm why not, all maps will look exacly the same, but well, seems good for me

Yeah, I had the same though to be honest. But we know, nearly every map has the standart SV 1.40 or 1.60 and they still don't look like exactly the same. Think about Namco, they do the same.

Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
Only for mono-HS ending streams (XXXkd or XXXdk) don't want to have ddddD or kkkkK please >.>

Good point. Should be discussed.

- Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower since it gives 1/8 rills, and probably most songs dosen't contain 1/8 beats.
On TnT drumrolls are just bonus spamming points, 125 1/8 aren't hard, and fill with ANY 1/4 sounds >.>, but if 1/8 seems SO bad ;_;

Didn't said it is hard. - Not the diff. is importand. More the visible view and the reaction to the song itself.
But well, I tested it on a 100BPm song right now. Maybe it is okay if we use exeptions like 1/1 long sliders? Sometimes a song has 1/8 sounds, but using them as hitcircles makes high overlapping and dosen't look good. So a slider could be the solution.
So, how about just to restrict the slider rule? Sliders are on Low-BPM songs(start from 100BPM, less is too slow) allowed to be used, but just as 1/1 long one, placed in a sections which have hearable 1/8 notes in it.

Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
Agree with this, instead of overmapping blank part on the song, break should be manually removed (don't know if it's possible btw >.>

Making rules for taiko maps is cool, yeah...

But i REALLY don't want to have the same maps again and again... on standard mode, this is easily avoidable (differant placement, spacing, etc etc,...) But on taiko we will have SO MANY mainstream maps... and that's why i can aggre on some guidelines, but the use of 1/3 1/6 and sliders should not be restricted, really...

Well, I also don't want same maps, but I rather prefer good similiar maps as maps which didn't get real mods. But I've mentioned allready before what I think about similiar maps.

About the use of 1/3 and 1/6 you have mentioned, I can't follow what you want to tell me, sorry.

There are some good points you've suggested.
OzzyOzrock
5,185 posts
Joined August 2010
OzzyOzrock
whether or not it's possible doesn't change that it's wrong to make them and overall annoying
Yuzeyun
7,646 posts
Joined September 2010
Yuzeyun

ziin wrote:

From what I can tell drumrolls don't have ticks in TnT. Do you still have to hit them in time, or is it like a balloon note (spinner)?

I still think you taiko players are scared of jacks. DDDDD is not hard to do at 140 bpm 1/4ths. kdDkK isn't either at even faster bpms. KDKDK is just plain simple at any bpm. The problem in that case is reading the finish notes, due to the fact that they're bigger than other notes and you're just not plain used to reading/playing them (which is stupid, but I supposed that's your version of eggpain).

In the true game you can spam as much as you want, as it was in an older version.

Also not every taiko player have played jacky songs in stepmania, I can easily do DDDDD @ 145 if my hands are perfectly synced. Even 150 with luck.

The big problem about big notes is that it can confuse players, as much as you can easily miss even with KkDdKkDdKkDd or KDKDK (StepMania is more flexible about those things, I swear)

The game itself doesn't have loads of big notes streams ... Don't even know if there is even one.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

_Gezo_ wrote:

The big problem about big notes is that it can confuse players, as much as you can easily miss even with KkDdKkDdKkDd or KDKDK (StepMania is more flexible about those things, I swear)
So the problem is inherent in TnT's stupid design of notes, which can be fixed by a skin and learning how to play them. I still think they're 100% optional.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
You guys are so quick. lol

_Gezo_ wrote:

It's possible for me... why wouldn't it be possible for others ?
I think this counts more as visual point.

@ziin: BPM 140 with 1/4 is still in use. Problem is just the overlapping in some cases. A KdKdKdKdK stream in a 100BPM song is not good readable and dosen't look nice either.

ddddK are exeptions because they are at the end of a stream and don't cover the smaller notes.
Another problem is the sound volumen of this big don's. Having a DDDDD stream isn't just overlapping, it is also extremly loud in most cases.

Edit:

ziin wrote:

I still think you taiko players are scared of jacks.
I approve this. Unfortunately in most cases it is true I guess.
Loctav
Popcorn Fairy
4,496 posts
Joined February 2009
Loctav
Please let me so the German version Onosaki. No offense, but you screw up our language to something non understandable sometimes. :'D

Regarding the big hit notes. In streams, they are considered to be forbidden since they are almost impossible to be played as intentioned. It's not because we fail at playing, it's because it's almost unreadable. Compare it with hidden reverse arrows or unstacked hidden sliders (AngelHoney's F.I. Map is a good drama-containing example for it)
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Edit: Actually not really, but whatever. Just go ahead.
You help me with this since I can do other stuff in this time. Thank you.
mm201
osu! Alumni
4,495 posts
Joined August 2008
mm201
I like the WAHOOO!
I think it should be fine to leave a note that breaks are not part of the normal Taiko gameplay and to not use them unless there really isn't anything to map at that time.
omegaflo
196 posts
Joined March 2009
omegaflo
So the problem is inherent in TnT's stupid design of notes, which can be fixed by a skin and learning how to play them. I still think they're 100% optional.
errrr.. wat ?

No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think so ;)

THIS is the problem of big notes, if it's like this ddKDkkDKdd, okay, no problem, but 180Bpm 1/4 DDDKKKDDD or even DDKKDDKK are just... well >.>

About the use of 1/3 and 1/6 you have mentioned, I can't follow what you want to tell me, sorry
Okay okay i'm the only one to remember, nvm so >.>
i just said that a 1/4 ddd is EXACTLY the same than a dddd 1/6 see ? The only differance is the difficulty, sure you can't do that on ALL triple pattern 1/4, but this don't sound weird AT ALL (Making originality and fun too btw)

good exemple : IN THE ZONE when the pattern is going dkkkdkkkdkkkd 1/4 and then dkkkkdkkkkdkkkk 1/6 (For kats), the rythm still the same, and the pattern is clearly funnier >.> (and harder of course, maybe a good way to increase difficulty without making random hs patterns ? Could be a solution.)

Btw, didn't watch'd for the life drain but actually, 5 should be NEVER changed, or only for marathon maps
I REALLY DON'T LIKE to clear a map with more than 100 miss, even if it's a 3k notes maps, if the map is TOO difficult (full of 220bpm 1/6 or 270 bpm 1/4 hard recording heavy patterns) IT should be assumed and should still at 5 HP drain (exception really for marathon maps 7-8k+)

after some tries, with a 3000 notes song (a firce map here) you can do 80-90 miss (if not 50 in a row ofc >.>) without fail at 5 HP Drain, sounds quite good for me actually
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.

Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 2 times in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Unacceptable isn't the problem. The fact that it's impossible to hit (unless the map is under 140 BPM) is the problem.
And it's just stupid, when would that fit into a song?
inb4 new fags who think they know taiko.
Taiko maps aren't supposed to be super hard, they're supposed to fit the song. (aka vocals or drums)
Just because the map is 220 BPM, doesn't mean you have t go all 1/4ddddkkdkkdkkdkkdkdkd1/6dddk dddk kkkkdkkdkdkdkdkdkdk 1/8 ddkdkdkddkdkdkkkdkkdkkkd.
J/S.
Last edited by Sander-Don , edited 1 time in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

omegaflo wrote:

About the use of 1/3 and 1/6 you have mentioned, I can't follow what you want to tell me, sorry
Okay okay i'm the only one to remember, nvm so >.>
i just said that a 1/4 ddd is EXACTLY the same than a dddd 1/6 see ? The only differance is the difficulty, sure you can't do that on ALL triple pattern 1/4, but this don't sound weird AT ALL (Making originality and fun too btw)

good exemple : IN THE ZONE when the pattern is going dkkkdkkkdkkkd 1/4 and then dkkkkdkkkkdkkkk 1/6 (For kats), the rythm still the same, and the pattern is clearly funnier >.> (and harder of course, maybe a good way to increase difficulty without making random hs patterns ? Could be a solution.)

You are talking to me like I couldn't play hard things in Taiko, orz. I'm not a mapper who played just a bit in the past, so I know what you mean.
  1. Note Streams
    For the majority of maps, only 1/1, 1/2 or 1/4 beat note streams should be used. 1/3 and 1/6 should be added only when there's a similiar beat in the music.
    Information: Adding own 1/3 or 1/6 into the map is just recommended for experienced mappers.
As you can see, 1/6 is not forbidden. It's told that people should use 1/6 when a hearable sound for this avaible or if they are experienced and know how to use them.

Btw, didn't watch'd for the life drain but actually, 5 should be NEVER changed, or only for marathon maps
I REALLY DON'T LIKE to clear a map with more than 100 miss, even if it's a 3k notes maps, if the map is TOO difficult (full of 220bpm 1/6 or 270 bpm 1/4 hard recording heavy patterns) IT should be assumed and should still at 5 HP drain (exception really for marathon maps 7-8k+)

Sorry omegaflo, but personal views have a small weight in such a discussions. Why do you think it should be lvl 5? As I understand you say it should be lvl 5 because you... don't want to clear a map with much misses? If yes, it should be the controvers direction, lvl 10 what you used as example.
Edit: Great to have you here, lepidopodus, Sander-Don.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
I'm gonna subscribe this thread to make sure nothing stupid happens.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@Sander-Don: That's what I want to hear. Thank you.
Anyway, I'm the same opinion as Sander and lepidopodus.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Sakura Hana wrote:

Soft sampleset should never be used as with Taiko skin it shows a super really low volume that more often than not, blends with the music (I've seen it happen to almost every Taiko map i mod).

OnosakiHito wrote:

- The generel use must be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles too quite.
I disagree with this. Not everyone plays taiko with taiko skin, and there is a very drastic difference in sound between normal and soft set in the default skin. If you ask me, this should get changed so if soft set is used, it's volume should be increased to atleast match the normal set volume, instead of just banning soft hitsound set.

I understand that balancing should be done around the Taiko skin, but there is still the default one.
KRZY
Former osu! Champion: OWC#3
4,848 posts
Joined May 2009
KRZY
I have nothing to add rule-wise to the discussion, but I think it is wonderful that taiko people are finally showing concrete progress. Go!
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.

Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.

I'll post more when I have time.

@KRZY: We had this kind of discussion previously, but it just called 'agreement' so it didn't have any enforcements or something. Since this discussion is quite official... Yeah you can call this as a progress.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura

lolcubes wrote:

I disagree with this. Not everyone plays taiko with taiko skin, and there is a very drastic difference in sound between normal and soft set in the default skin. If you ask me, this should get changed so if soft set is used, it's volume should be increased to atleast match the normal set volume, instead of just banning soft hitsound set.

I understand that balancing should be done around the Taiko skin, but there is still the default one.
Except not even 100% soft can compare to even 50% Normal, that's how big the difference is with Taiko skin
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@lolcubes: Exactly what Sakura Hana say.
@KRYZ: As lepidopodus said. Anyway, thank you.
@lepidopodus: About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz

Uh pretty late here. Offline for now.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.

General settings

HP drain should be 5

OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)

NO countdown (It's unauthentic)

NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)

NO letter boxes during breaks. (unauthentic as well.)

Drumrolls (sliders) Shouldn't be used to much. But also not used sparingly. In most authentic maps, drum rolls are quite abundant. (1 - 3 rolls per song at least.)

1/8 should NEVER be used. unless of course the BPM is low enough that it is humanly possible to hit. (not including them fast asian fingers.)

1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)

Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.

Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.

That's just my take on it. I'll probably add more later.
Sakura
osu! Alumni
7,979 posts
Joined March 2010
Sakura
Well here are my opinions on your rules

Sander-Don wrote:

Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.

General settings

HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)

OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
Agree Taiko is hard already to hit as it is with OD 5 anyways.

NO countdown (It's unauthentic)
Agree For the same reasons as yours

NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
Agree Due to the previous reasons about soft sampleset being almost unhearable in Taiko skin.

NO letter boxes during breaks. (unauthentic as well.)
Somewhat AgreeMore like there shouldn't even be breaks, i dont remember Taiko no Tatsujin having a single break ever, plus HP only goes down when you miss notes, it's not constantly draining (i think?)

Drumrolls (sliders) Shouldn't be used to much. But also not used sparingly. In most authentic maps, drum rolls are quite abundant. (1 - 3 rolls per song at least.)
Not sure what to comment on this.

1/8 should NEVER be used. unless of course the BPM is low enough that it is humanly possible to hit. (not including them fast asian fingers.)
Agree Nothing else to add.

1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Agree Nothing else to add.

Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Agree Come on, it's just not right at all to have to spam Double notes for any reason whatsoever, i dont even remember other Rythm games like DDR making you spam left/right at the same time at anything bigger than 1/1 or 1/2.

That's just my take on it. I'll probably add more later.
That's about all i wanted to say.
Last edited by Sakura , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Sakura Hana wrote:

Well here are my opinions on your rules

Sander-Don wrote:

Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.

General settings

HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
That's a good point you have there.
Makar
osu! Alumni
2,258 posts
Joined February 2011
Makar

Sander-Don wrote:

Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
I prefer the hitsounds/looks on the osu! taiko skin xD
I actually use the taiko skin but I deleted everything in it except the cool HP Bar o.ob

EDIT1: Also I dont really have an opinion on much of this, except for OD5-7 and the BPM changes.
I really hate it when there is a slow BPM section at the start of the song with a fast BPM change later, it makes the song impossible to hidden.
It should be done like http://puu.sh/ehei and not http://puu.sh/ehev
(Examples are Vicho-kun's and wcx's Endless Story (TV Size))

EDIT2: Yeah I agree with everything Sander and Love have said pretty much.
Last edited by Makar , edited 2 times in total.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love
Hurr.

Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).

Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.

Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk. If anything, if you feel you have overmapped, pause with only 1 d or k depending on the pitch.
Last edited by Love , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Makar8000 wrote:

I prefer the hitsounds/looks on the osu! taiko skin xD
I actually use the taiko skin but I deleted everything in it except the cool HP Bar o.ob
Welp, Opinions~

Pulling a Sakura Hana here and giving you my take on your take

Love wrote:

Hurr.

Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Agreed

Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.Agreed but, mainly stick to the drums unless there is like a guitar or piano solo I guess.

Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk. If anything, if you feel you have overmapped, pause with only 1 d or k depending on the pitch.Agreed


We think alike, Don.

EDIT: Merged double post.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)

Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.

Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.

Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Ahh, I forgot to mention the SV.
Thanks, lepi.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.

Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.

BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.

Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.

Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.

Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.

Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
wmfchris
osu! Alumni
5,072 posts
Joined March 2008
wmfchris
making a technical note here

Agree with this, instead of overmapping blank part on the song, break should be manually removed (don't know if it's possible btw >.>
[Events]
//Background and Video events
0,0,"BG2.jpg"
//Break Periods
2,55206,69378
//Storyboard Layer 0 (Background)
//Storyboard Layer 1 (Fail)
//Storyboard Layer 2 (Pass)
//Storyboard Layer 3 (Foreground)
//Storyboard Sound Samples
//Background Colour Transformations
3,100,163,162,255
delete that line and save. don't save in editor mode or else breaks appear again.

Going out soon so I'll read through this later <3

========================================
Taiko maps aren't supposed to be super hard, they're supposed to fit the song. (aka vocals or drums)
about finishes: I can hit DDDDDDDDD 1/4 in BPM180 (raijin) or even higher, but is that fits the song? This ismore important.
lolcubes
osu! Alumni
4,437 posts
Joined November 2010
lolcubes

Sander-Don wrote:

Also, if you're playing taiko, why wouldn't you use the authentic skin unless you don't know how to download it?
I mean really, the osu! taiko skin is so horrendous.
Because I am unable to. I have issues between my sound card and the game, and any custom sounds (including the ones from a skin) will either crash my game at random, or all sounds will just disappear. This is an issue I just can't solve and there is no going around it.
That's another case which is irrelevant though.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Loctav wrote:

Regarding the big hit notes... ...It's not because we fail at playing, it's because it's almost unreadable.
Unless I am mistaken, it's because the big notes are, well, big? They block the next note. Osu! standard has a similar problem with hitbursts blocking the next note too, so what a lot of players do is skin them out.

omegaflo wrote:

No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think so ;)
While I certainly can't (my max is 140 sustained which is why I used that figure), anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.

Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
So is there a problem leaving the option open to the approval crowd? I could probably find a song where the drummer uses both sticks in a sixteenth note stream, which would be the taiko equivalent of what you're denying.

Sander-Don wrote:

The fact that it's impossible to hit (unless the map is under 140 BPM) is the problem.
completely untrue. there are many people who can do 200 BPM. I wouldn't be surprised if a few could go up to 250.

Sander-Don wrote:

And it's just stupid, when would that fit into a song?... ...Taiko maps aren't supposed to be super hard, they're supposed to fit the song. (aka vocals or drums). Just because the map is 220 BPM, doesn't mean you have t go all dsfargeg
Of course not, but what if that's the way the song goes? Don't map it? Why should rules disallow super hard maps? As far as I know big notes are optional. You don't actually have to hit both notes do you?

The fact is ddKdd is not a hard pattern to play at any reasonable BPM. kdDdk is a much harder pattern, but still achievable at 200 BPM. Both are however difficult patterns to read since most players are not used to it, and due to the limitations of the skin. I mean I don't like playing maps that go back on themselves and are very difficult to read. How can we say with certainty that eggpain difficulty is unrankable, especially if it's possible? I just want to make sure you're going to deny it for a good reason, not just because of eggpain.

http://osu.ppy.sh/ss/226256 - if the d after the K here were a repeating slider in osu, it would be borderline rankable (the modder would probably tell the person to fix it). However I still fail to see how this is so impossible to read.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Listen, Finish notes in 1/4 have nothing to do with seeing the next note.
It's the fact that nobody can hit a stream that's 14 notes long of finish notes (say all D notes) in 200 BPM maps.
But what overrides that is the fact that it's not authentic.
They're really should be no discussion about this.

Edit no you don't have to hit it with both hands, but still.
In authentic taiko, that's how it's supposed to be hit. And aren't we trying to make this as authentic as possible?
Edit 2 And about what Chris said, Yes, I can hit finish notes in long streams too, weather it be all finish, or 1 at the start or end of the stream. But the problem is it being unauthentic.
Just because one person (TTTL in this case) Can hit 1/8 streams, doesn't mean it should be something that's allowed in a map.
Or just because me and you (Chris) can hit finish notes in streams, doesn't mean it should be allowed either.
It's unauthentic
Last edited by Sander-Don , edited 4 times in total.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love
No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4ths, not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Love wrote:

No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4ths
Not everyone can play insane either. That's a terrible argument.

Love wrote:

not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
I'm afraid I don't understand your point.

Sander-Don wrote:

Listen, Finish notes in 1/4 have nothing to do with seeing the next note.
That's not what others are saying

Sander-Don wrote:

It's the fact that nobody can hit a stream that's 14 notes long of finish notes (say all D notes) in 200 BPM maps.
I already told you this was untrue

Sander-Don wrote:

But what overrides that is the fact that it's not authentic.
Good enough reason for me. I think it's a stupid reason, but I'll accept it. Just make sure everything else is as close to authentic as possible.

Osu's taiko is much easier than authentic due to having 4 inputs rather than 2 inputs, as well.
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
And about the 4 inputs on osu! and 2 on authentic. the wii, psp, and ds games have 4 inputs as well. (That is of course if your not using the tatacon on the wii.)

I'd like to discuss more, but I gotta go to sleep. hopefully the people that actually know something about taiko will keep this thread sensible.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

Sander-Don wrote:

Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
You're a good enough player to know how less notes on the screen make rhythm games easier up to the point where the player can't keep up anymore.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love

ziin wrote:

Love wrote:

No discussion at all, not everyone can vibrate their fingers to hit finishers in 1/4ths
Not everyone can play insane either. That's a terrible argument.

Love wrote:

not to mention both fingers to actually get the full amount of points for the finish instead of half.
I'm afraid I don't understand your point..
1. There's no rule that there needs to be muzukashii diffs if there's an Oni, or an Oni diff if there's an Inner Oni. Taiko maps do not have a full mapset unless they are done from authentic maps into taikosu! maps, which is what Arien666 makes.

2. You need to hit both red or both blue to get the full points for a finish, which it's impossible to get the full points if there's no space between a note and a finish, which means it has to be 1/2 or 1/3 in occasions to hit. i.e.: ddD d D first one is impossible to hit, but the 2nd one is easier to hit.
Last edited by Love , edited 1 time in total.
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz
Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?

glhf
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love

MMzz wrote:

Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?

glhf
quoted for the truth
MMzz
Elite Mapper
3,979 posts
Joined June 2009
MMzz

ziin wrote:

Sander-Don wrote:

Though osu! taiko is harder in a sense due to the fact that the play board is 0.5x shorter.
You're a good enough player to know how less notes on the screen make rhythm games easier up to the point where the player can't keep up anymore.
It's actually true.
In official TnT games the lane is way longer, and it really can effect accuracy/skill.
I can't keep good acc on taiko ds to save my life, but then the same songs on osu!taiko it's an easy SS.
Note that I am pretty equal in skill from DS to KB.
Love
osu! Alumni
1,267 posts
Joined August 2010
Love
One of the MAT/BATs that I've seen with good taiko mods, Garven. <3 him for that and he should teach the others.

Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: Are you trying to enforce rules that isn't from us? You are just talking about something other than Taiko, like talking about osu standard thing or stepmania thing etc etc. We suffered quite a lot already cause in the past there was quite lots of BATs who wants to enforce osu standard rules in Taiko mode. That is why we tryed to make our own rules once already. We are talking about Taiko so don't find examples from other things like 'Hey, there is similar thing in osu standard, so it is ok!'. I'm tired of this.

Being logical might important but our concensus is more important since it is a game, not an academical things. That is against our consensus (or something known as consensus) so we don't accept that. If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.

And allowing everything cause it is possible to play to someone, lol, is that you want?
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

lepidopodus wrote:

Are you trying to enforce rules that isn't from us?... ...Allowing everything cause it is possible to play, lol, is that you want?
I think making rules should be kept to the absolute minimum so that the mapper and player have more freedom in what they make/play. If it's impossible it should not be allowed, and in that case it's obvious and a rule is not needed unless it's been abused in the past. The reverse is not necessarily true, but what I want is an explanation as to why the rule should exist.

In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".

Currently it's:
big notes in 1/4 streams are too hard to read since the big note covers up the next note
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
big notes are too hard to play because you have to hit the same button twice in rapid succession
There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.
this never happens in TnT authentic and is not how TnT is played
I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.

I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.

This also helps me understand taiko better in the hopes that someday I will get better at playing/modding it.

I have a lot less of a problem with guidelines, so if this is a guideline I don't care as much.

lepidopodus wrote:

If you want to reverse this, prove that lots of Taiko players think it is good and should be unbanned, not stating it is possible or not.
In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
In a sense, yes I'm trying to enforce rules that aren't from the taiko crowd because they are general rules. Mostly "does it fit the song?".
We aren't composing musical thing. Based on songs? Fine. Cling to songs even ignoring enjoyment? No. And lots of player think that is far from enjoyment. Don't forget that one of Taiko player's complains before this amount of Taiko map have been made was existance of 1/4 big notes.

This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.

There should be a maximum amount here, and in all likelihood that's right around 200 BPM. Limiting difficulty should not be up to rules, but up to the song. In osu! standard, and 8x jump is 99% of the time incorrect. However there is no rule stating what the maximum jump rating is. It's obvious on a per-map basis what should be allowed and should be caught in the modding process.
I already said that enjoyment should not be overridden by song elements due ti its a game. And you are stating about osu standard again. You can't persuade us by this.

I can't argue with this. I don't particularly like this reason because there's a lot of things in osu! that don't exist in the DS versions. Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.
Yeah statement like 'it's authentic' isn't good, but denying influence of TnT, blargh.

I keep referring to other games because it works in other games, and I don't see why it wouldn't work in taiko. If you can point out places where I'm wrong I would like to hear it, as that's one of the two best ways to convince me to change my mind (the other is in my signature). If my analogies are wrong or are inappropriate that would also work.
No you are just stating about other games cause you can't find anything, anyone that supports your opnion in Taiko. Don't trying to enforce that we don't like, it is just trolling to us. If we start think we need to abolosh those restictions, WE will do it. (And we are already talking about weaken it a bit.)

In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
Rules also function as guideline for newbies, so we state those kind of things. There's also some kind of historical reason. I already told you that one of our complain was 1/4 big notes. There was days that BAT denied peculiarity of Taiko, so we need to state how we are different by insist some difference, and that was one thing. You lack these kind of understandings, don't think this as that easy thing.

This is going stupid. I won't accept any statement about big notes or finish notes below here, cause I think this is denial of capability of Taiko community.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
arien666
6,301 posts
Joined May 2009
arien666
meow :3

SPOILER

[From http://osu.ppy.sh/s/11577 Taiko diff]


[Test]



I don't know if 1/4 finish stream would be good but



AT LEAST, IT IS NOT EASY TO HIT THEM ON KEYBOARD



In authentic Taiko game, there's no 1/4 finish stream if the pattern goes with normal speed or slow speed(BPM 120+/Inherited x1.0/SV 1.4)
1 song(大打音) is with special reason which is Inherited x1.66/BPM 135/SV 1.4 so it is sightable on user's sight.



But if 1/4 finish stream on general pattern without any speed change or SV adjustment, it just ruins the map.
So, I don't agree with this unban orz
omegaflo
196 posts
Joined March 2009
omegaflo
Why do you think it should be lvl 5? As I understand you say it should be lvl 5 because you... don't want to clear a map with much misses?
Well.... Yes ? =D

Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)

@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)

ziin wrote:

anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
400BPM 1/4 ? I think they are only 4-5 players able to do that srsly, rules can't be watch'd for only these 4-5 >.>

Some good people on this thread, kind of happy to see them =)
aabc271
osu! Alumni
1,334 posts
Joined August 2009
aabc271

lepidopodus wrote:

This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
I can't understand this statement cause there is no such thing called 'approach rate' in Taiko.
I think the "approach rates" said by ziin means the speed of notes.
Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
Increasing the speed of notes could improve readability, but it doesn't affect the density of notes.
Because players still have to hit the notes at a certain BPM, no matter how high the speed of notes are

Taiko mappers do not all map in "authentic" style either, which makes the argument a little weak.
Their mapping styles could be different from the authentic ( eg hitsounds, note placements ),
but they all follow the most basic elements from the authentic, such as no long 1/8s, no 1/4 finishes on most cases etc.

omegaflo wrote:

No no no no, are you able to play 180BPM 1/4 single tap ? i don't think so ;)
While I certainly can't (my max is 140 sustained which is why I used that figure), anyone who can stream at 400 BPM (which is apparently not hard for taiko) can do 200 BPM single tap.
Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.
Explanation
First of all, 1/8 is a double denser than 1/4.
ie 1/4 of 180 BPM = 1/8 of 90 BPM
And tapping 1/4 with single finger = Tapping 1/8 with both hands
ie BPM 180 tap by single hand = BPM 360 tap by both hands
As I know, most average players feel tired when they hit 220+ BPM 1/4, even by using both hands.
Some more extreme players can play ~ 250 BPM 1/4 well, I guess.
And I'm quite sure that nearly nobody can play 400 BPM 1/4, as that is 1/8 of 200 BPM.
Take this map as an example.
The BPM is 185, but still only 2 FCed because the map contains few 1/8s and a 1/3 + 1/8.
The 1/8s in the map is same as 1/4 of BPM 370
And consider that hln (#2) tried for 245 times to get that record, which means that 1/4 of 400 BPM is nearly impossible for all players.
Well, some can do that, but 99% can't
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

aabc271 wrote:

Maybe it's me, but from what I see, I think you've misunderstood something about streams in Taiko, ziin.
I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.

omegaflo wrote:

@ziin : Stop, play Made of fire Heavy or Oni Diff on taiko, you will see why we DON'T want big notes on taiko >.> (and srsly, IT WILL BE A SOOOOO OPEN DOOR for macro users >.>)
I think it would be fun. Are all the scores and FCs hacked or something?

arien666 wrote:

大打音
is this unrankable?

Also, what does the life drain do in taiko?
mm201
osu! Alumni
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mm201
This thread is a tl;dr so please excuse me if this has already been said:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.

Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.

SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
wmfchris
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wmfchris
Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.
This is a viable excuse at lower approach rates, but there is plenty of space to see the next note at high approach rates.
This one does not sound reasonable for me. All elements, from BG image to slider velocity to pattern arrangements, should fit the song. If you are trying to make big note-related stream more readable by increasing SV, you are creating another elements that does not fit the song, and is not welcomed at all.

In all likelihood I can't. I don't know enough taiko players to prove this. However you say nobody likes it. If that is so, why deny something that will never be abused?
We make rules for the future and we would never know whether it would be abused, especially the new comers in mapping taiko stuffs.

In order to convince others that finishes stream is possible, list some maps that real accent which occurs at middle of stream and is appearing in conseccutive manner.

Again, we make maps to enhance the music itself and
Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
We can map maps that fits the song and fun at the same time, but we can't map for those guys enjoying extreme maps.

and about Made of Fire, this point is quite weak when you look at the replay.
No mod full score = 747680
No mod full score without hitting big circles completely ~560000

and in the scoreboard, score concentrates between 580000~620000, that is, players in general can't play nig notes well, and it's unpeasent to play so. (Asked them before when this is ranked lol) Ignoreing big circles, this map is quite easy to FC with.

==========================================
P.S.1
HP life drain = HP deducted per miss
==========================================
P.S.2
I agree to mm201, the only problem is whether big/small mixed streams are necessary.
Last edited by wmfchris , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
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mm201
A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

mm201 wrote:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us. I personally don't want to set a restriction in here, but I guess some players want it.

mm201 wrote:

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
At least I no longer talked like 'hey it is authentic so we need to accept it!'

mm201 wrote:

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
In usual setting it is considered as annoying. I guess you've seen several times in here already?

mm201 wrote:

Breaks:
See my previous post. If osu! autocreates a break, there's probably more silence there than would be conventional for Taiko anyway.
Breaks in Taiko is almost non-functional except showing O/X like thing for now cause lots of elements in breaks of osu standard removed from Taiko. Not that important whether remove it or not to me, to be honest.

mm201 wrote:

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
At least one thing: next note shouldn't be too close, like 1/4 gap.

mm201 wrote:

SV:
I agree with raising the SV for very slow BPMs and lowering it for very fast BPMs.
I said standard is 1.4, but rasing or lowering, I don't care, it's mapper's choice.

mm201 wrote:

A pattern like DdkdDdkdD could make sense if it's readable and slow enough to complete.
The problem is, in usual case, it is not.

Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations this much?
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 6 times in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Before I answer I want to mentione, that many things - people have said in the last hours - has been allready mentioned in the first post before.

1.) Sander Don + Sakura Hana

Sakura Hana wrote:

Well here are my opinions on your rules

Sander-Don wrote:

Here's my take on taiko mapping/rules.

General settings

HP drain should be 5
Disagree Lower HP Drain should be used if the song is longer than your average TnT song (i think 2 minutes? or was it 1:30?)
OnosakiHito: Same here. lepidopodus has the same opinion.

OD either 5, 6, or 7. (I prefer 5 seeings how 7 makes it not fun to play imo.)
Agree Taiko is hard already to hit as it is with OD 5 anyways.
OnosakiHito: Disagree. Dose it make fun or not is a personal view of everyone. If a songs offset is timed perfectly you can even take lvl 10 (without overtaking it) and play it pretty well with a high acc(including having fun). Other importand points are mentioned in the rule before.

NO soft hitsound sets. (authentic taiko has no such thing.)
Agree Due to the previous reasons about soft sampleset being almost unhearable in Taiko skin.
OnosakiHito: I can just agreed one more time. It's what Sakura Hana said.

1/6 can be used. I prefer using them in quads, such as dddk, or kkkd etc. just not in streams, like ddddddddk. (unless the BPM is low enough to hit it.)
Agree Nothing else to add.
OnosakiHito: As in the rules mentioned before.

Finish notes should ONLY be used in 1/1, 1/2, and most occasions 1/3. 1/4 finish on anything higher then say, 140 or 130 BPM is just ridiculous.
Agree Come on, it's just not right at all to have to spam Double notes for any reason whatsoever, i dont even remember other Rythm games like DDR making you spam left/right at the same time at anything bigger than 1/1 or 1/2.
OnosakiHito: If you just mean the single finish I agree.

If you also mean the finish at the end of a stream I Disagree(if not nvm, other people may read it).
I said it before and I say it again: The reason ,,not able to play" or ,,ridiculous to play" is just no argument. People are able to play it. And is it ridiculous or not is also just a personal view, which has in discussions not a high wight(even if the suggester is a known mapper/player). It's more importand how effectiv the rule is. If a mapper dose not like finish notes at a stream, the don't need to use them, right?
2.) Love

Love wrote:

Don't map Vocals unless it's clear that the vocals stick out more in the song (usually only when there's a slow part or no instruments playing).
Stick to the drums/piano while mapping to maintain flow/streams. Occasional guitar.
Vocals should never be mapped as a kkkkk, ddddd, or related. Only ddd, kkk, kkd, ddk, or occasional dkd kdk.
OnosakiHito: This counts more as conversion or a hint how to map, but not as a new rule. Any opinion from the others to this?
3.) ziin and all (importand)

ziin wrote:

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: mixing big notes in 1/4 streams or something, completely unacceptable to me. Seriously.

Extreme experts might want harder and more ridiculous things to get enjoyed, but we can't map for those guys.
So is there a problem leaving the option open to the approval crowd? I could probably find a song where the drummer uses both sticks in a sixteenth note stream, which would be the taiko equivalent of what you're denying.

OnosakiHito: I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.

It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arrguments agains it:
1.) Using them is extremly loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.

Sander-Don wrote:

(...)
They're really should be no discussion about this.
(...)
It's unauthentic
OnosakiHito: Also what lepidopodus said before is absolutly right.
4.)MMzz and Love

MMzz wrote:

Won't get enforced / People won't follow the rules anyways.
We tried this once, remember?
OnosakiHito: As I know it wasn't official in your case.
After this discussion reached the end in the future, then I want to see these rules as strict official rules, so they will be not forgotten.
I will ask peppy about this soon, too.

Love wrote:

Since this thread is mainly to the MATs and BATs that want to mod taiko, I suggest Rokodo's old thread with the Guidelines.
OnosakiHito: Actually it is not. It was just an example with the MATs and BATs. It makes modding even for new taiko mappers easier.
About Rokodos guidelines I have told allready seomthing in the first post.
5.) omegaflo

omegaflo wrote:

Nah j/k i'm not sure that i'm the only one but, i just wanna said that 5 is the MOST used life drain and using less than 5 should be only used for marathons (And not because on the map difficulty see ? ><, good exemples are osu maps with 2-3 Life drain just because insanes jumps or insanes streams, no interest, but YEAH it's only personnal opinion ._. , but well, we're here to show OUR (Taiko pro Players) Opinions no ? =D)

OnosakiHito: I agree. Marathons should have lower HPs. This will be soon changed, thank's to Sakura Hana.
6.) mm201

mm201 wrote:

Soft sampleset:
The volume issue is a problem with the Taiko skin which needs to be fixed there. osu!'s standard samplesets only have about a 20 to 30% volume difference, and this difference should be persisted in the Taiko skin. Since some osu!standard maps change Soft's volume to compensate for this difference, it could create a weird effect if the difference isn't dealt with in a similar way.
OnosakiHito: It would be allready enough - as wmfchris saif at the beginning - if in Taiko just the Normal-sample would be avaible. But since peppy has much to do, I would reather prefer just to restrict this rule, to make soft-samples forbidden.

"Authenticity," to me, doesn't mean cutting out new features.
OnosakiHito: True.

Mixed big/small streams:
Should be okay if the SV and snap used make all the notes visible.
OnosakiHito: Exaclty. As in the first post mentioned.

Rolls:
Shouldn't be regulated. Mod them like anything else.
OnosakiHito: First post explains why they need to be regulated in some cases.

Thanks to you, wmfchris, I don't need to write more. lol

Edit: Ah I forgot, I will answer to the respons of lepidopodus soon. It was my intention to keep it out of this post.
Edit2: I need to mentione it one more time about the 1/4 hit finish case:
Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.
So any discussion about this is meanless. lepidopodus post explains why.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
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mm201

lepidopodus wrote:

Hitsound is much more important in Taiko since it directly affects difficulty and gameplay. That is why we prefer normal hitsound set than soft. Soft one has too quiet volume to us.
Samplechanges shouldn't be used. I personally like the default skin's soft taiko sampleset. Sounds like a little toy drum. If the entire map is Soft, it should be fine.
The Taiko skin's soft sampleset's volume needs to be fixed, as I said earlier. All the problems you describe would be fixed in this case.

lepidopodus wrote:

Interesting, we made this thread to make our rules, but why osu standard players / mappers want to challenge our rules and recommendations?
Not forcing anything, just stating my preferences. I would be willing to let you and the other Taiko players have the final say on any rules.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
Hey and don't cling to TnT too much, Taiko guys. It will hurt our reasonings.

@mm201: Maybe I'm too sensitive about this. Yeah I can't forget those humiliations from you guys... Though it is more than a year ago.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 2 times in total.
Sakura
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Sakura

ziin wrote:

I have misunderstood streams in taiko. What I have not misunderstood is the ability of some people to press their fingers on a key 70 ms apart. I'm also considerably faster at short streams where any error in my speed is not cumulative. My max sustainable speed is probably somewhere around 720 hits per minute, but I can easily hit double that in short bursts by utilizing a timing window.
720 hits per minute means that you can hit the equivalent of 1/1s at 720 bpm, however 1/4s at 200 bpm is 800 hits per minute speed, which is faster than what you can hit, now imagine not tapping 2 keys alternatively, but tapping 2 keys at the same time sustaining this speed, is that what you want? i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
@lepidopodus: Well that's true. But in some special cases as in the 1/4 hit finish, it should be fine(+ more arguments).
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
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mm201
In osu! terms, big hits need to be "singled." Because you're using both your buttons to hit one note.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

wmfchris wrote:

Before we consider whether it's visible or readable or not, we consider whether it fits the song.
Accent is not equivalent to "both drum sticks hitting at the same time" or "chamber sound", it's somewhere represents the important point or emtional transision of the song, and natrually, by definition, will not appear at the middle of the stream, and not consecutively like this.

I'm misunderstanding again.

Sakura Hana wrote:

i really dare you even reach 800 hits per minute of double hits.
okay
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
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mm201
^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Sakura
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Sakura

mm201 wrote:

^ Fundamentally the same logic as my DdkdDdkdD example.
I think this needs to be left up to modders.
Could be a guideline, a.k.a can only bypass it if it makes sense and makes the map more fun

Edit: I still think that wouldn't be very readable unless you increase SV, and increasing SV to read some big notes, will decrease the time the players have to read anything else to begin with.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.

Ok to be honest we made that rules cause fools that have high position always violates this even we told not to do that several times. Do whatever you want, but we won't even weaken that rule cause we don't think it is right time to do that. (I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)

James wrote:

its good that you stop because you wont win no matter what
How can I forget this?
Sakura
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Sakura
Ok then let's ban the use of any Finish note that has any other note within less than 1/3 near it.
mm201
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mm201
It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.

lepidopodus wrote:

James is good example, even though I said big notes are bad in Taiko, he ignored and humiliated me. Oh, some of Taiko guys consider his Taiko map as worst as ever.
Please stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.
Sakura
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Sakura

mm201 wrote:

It should be measured in milliseconds, not beats. Just like every other too-fast rule.
Edit: But include the no-overlap requirement.
Higher bpm = more difficulty, i thought every rythm game has taught us that. which is why i would like to measure it in beat snaps rather than miliseconds.

However feel free to measure it in miliseconds if that's better for you.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin

OnosakiHito wrote:

I will be strict and honest: I'm happy to see you posting here, but 1/4 will be not allowed and will be not changed.

It is possible to play 1/4 hitcircles in some cases and it dose fit to a song sometimes. But there a way higher rated arguments again it:
1.) Using them is extremely loud.
2.) Taiko No Tatsujin, the original game, our mother game, dose not include such cases. And for the sake of this game it will be also not allowed here.

Sander-Don wrote:

It's unauthentic
I accept this pending ruling on:

ziin wrote:

arien666 wrote:

大打音
is this unrankable?

lepidopodus wrote:

(I regret talking about weakening big note rule with Taiko guys. We shouldn't have discussed this if we get attacked like this.)
Don't give up; you've almost won!
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus
@ziin: 大打音 is so-called neta-map. That means it is extremely exceptional case. Don't expand it too much. If similar map got submitted in osu, we might allow that but only after long long discussion.

At least I agree that we need to set exact limit. We had restricted big notes in 1/4 for long time, but there isn't exact limitation so we had certain gray zones. For example, how about 1/4 big notes in HS2.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
mm201
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mm201
That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
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Topic Starter
OnosakiHito
Okay, stop please for a moment.

Before any new ideas are coming up, first discuss about the rule it self, please. After that you can use new ideas and opinions. But not before.

  1. Finish Notes
    These notes should not be used in 1/4 or 1/6 or 1/8 streams, even at the beginning or the end. This is because the player is supposed to hit this type of note with both keys corresponding to the note's colour and because they overlap the related notes.
    Exeptions: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable. Consecutive finishes-streams are discouraged unless the BPM is low(SV 1.60 is here recommendet, to avoid overlapping).
    Example: AU - Infinite of Nuclear Fusion [Taiko Oni]
Things got at the moment really messed up here. I will aske some BAT's to clean the thread if necessary.
If this should happen, I will add this into the second post two, what has been deleted.
Sakura
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Sakura

mm201 wrote:

That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
The thing is, the lower the BPM, it may be easier to hit the 1/4 big notes, but then the scrolling speed is slower too, making them hard to read, so if it's not one thing is the other, which is why i think most have agreed to No big notes within less than 1/3 in the past.
lepidopodus
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lepidopodus
@mm201: But things are more complecated than you think... For example, some Taiko guys even think extremely high HS is ok cause it is used in TnT (See Inner Oni of Rotter Tarmination, Interestingly, this is quite popular map.) while they still think visibility is important.
I don't want to close every doors, even to some concrete rules like this finish or something, but I really don't want to see some guys trying to abuse it. (Yeah that is one reason why we requested some sort of Taiko superviser previously. For now, at least we have some MATs who is also Taiko experts.)
Maybe we can set a basic limitations, then talking about suitability of each cases when it is violated. Of course someone need to be a final decision maker.

@OnosakiHito: Sorry but stating about exceptions right now might not be that nice.

@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time... Z***** insisted 85 while w******* liked 100, etc etc.)
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Sakura
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Sakura

lepidopodus wrote:

@Sakura Hana: BPM does not affect distance between notes if they have same beat placement. Even with slighly covered, 1/4s in big notes can be readed, if the song has low BPM. That is why some guys stated we don't need to regulate big notes in extremely low BPM. (This is also the part of previous 'agreement', but we didn't make exact limitations in that time...)
Oh i see i didn't know that, my bad i just saw some songs had way faster scrolling in TnT when BPM was higher but i haven't experimented much with Taiko other than Cats - Baby Cat.
ziin
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Joined January 2010
ziin

mm201 wrote:

That's why there need to be two different rules: one for time between objects, and another for visibility.
HS2 1/4 bigs would probably be okay with 80 BPM, for instance.
I'll need some help from you taiko guys in deciding what the fastest BPM 1/4 bigs are playable in.
I've already established that 1/4 bigs are playable in 200 BPM, and hopefully nobody disagrees, so the point is moot. I haven't seen many sub-60 BPM songs in osu so they should be rare enough to count out.

Rather than make a cut point at a certain BPM, it should be at the 1/4 mark, since taiko approach rate varies with BPM, and the slider speed should vary very little. Fast BPMs are "too annoying/not authentic" but readable. Slow BPMs are "unreadable due to skin". You'd be left with a range of stuff where it's okay to use, and in that case a flat deny of all 1/4 would be better and easier.

@OnosakiHito
under Exceptions: is xxxdD allowed?
OnosakiHito
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OnosakiHito
@ziin: omegaflo asked that, too. But unfortunately hadn't time to add it yet in the second info post for discussing such points.
lepidopodus
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lepidopodus
@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptible.
And for other things, I just can't understand your statement. I already said we don't use word 'approach rate' so I don't know what you are meaning. I never said high BPM is annoying (maybe to some newbies cause speed of notes is quite high) or non-authentic (high BPM --> non-authentic? who said that, seriously?) and we never said low BPM is hard to read. (We have more time to read the notes since speed of note is slow) I don't know why you stated about skin in there. I can't answer these things cause I couldn't understand.

@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
Sakura
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Sakura
As for the fact that it may fit the song is one thing, i dont see the problem with switching from a ddkdkdkdk...something stream to 3 3/4 big dons if there are some enphasis in there, then back to another stream, I havent even seen any point in which there are enphasized notes IN THE MIDDLE OF A STREAM, considering you're still mapping to the same instrument, on any song whatsoever, and switching instruments often in middle of a stream is just... no.

osu! has it's hitsounds to recognize a different sound from another instrument in middle of mapping, in Taiko it's different, your hitsounds are part of your mapping, so it's pretty hard (and maybe annoying) to switch instruments when you're clearly following something else, just to have an enphasis in middle of the stream, i rather you have a small pause then hit the enphasis then go back to your other instrument after said pause.

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.

Edit: if anything use a regular don in middle of katsus to give recognitiion to enphasized notes in a stream, lone enphasis is when you'd normally go with big dons/katsus.
ziin
2,632 posts
Joined January 2010
ziin
(by the way we're done now; I agree with the no 1/4th rule, just clearing up some stuff)

lepidopodus wrote:

@ziin: 200 BPM with spammed big notes? I considered that as a joke, but I guess you are quite serious. Simply hitting keys, ok that might be easy, but hitting both keys several times with same time gaps (which is really short) while hitting two keys exactly same time, huh. I don't consider that as acceptable.
I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.

lepidopodus wrote:

approach rate
Sorry I thought you read this:

aabc271 wrote:

Speed of notes = BPM * SV * SV multiplier
I can use "speed of notes" but approach rate is the rate (velocity) of approach (something coming closer). I'm not talking about the option in the .osu file.

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play (hitting the same key with the same finger at a rate of 800 hits per minute is hard). 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read (Big notes are larger than normal and cover up the note behind them, making it easy to not see the note).

lepidopodus wrote:

@Onosakihito: I said it is bad to say about exceptions for now, there is someone trying to abuse that already.
I know you hate analogies but I have one last one.
I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
Last edited by ziin , edited 1 time in total.
lepidopodus
3,548 posts
Joined November 2009
lepidopodus

Sakura Hana wrote:

Then again why are we even discussing this, it just seems like we're going in circles in here.
Check 2nd page of this thread and you will see who questioned it first.

ziin wrote:

I don't think it's right to ban something just because you think it's too hard when plenty of other people can do it. It is right to ban something because it's wrong or there is some visual or game problem with it.
The same logic that how wrong is 'I can do that so why you ban it?'. At least I considered as experts in Taiko mapping so my thoughts can be a bit more influencial. There is not exact answer for this, but YOU stated about availability of streamy big notes first and constantly.

ziin wrote:

1/4 big note streams in high bpm are annoying because they are non-authentic and hard to play. 1/4 big note streams in low bpm are annoying because they are also non-authentic and hard to read.
1/4 streamy big notes are non-authentic, but I never said 'it is wrong cause it's non-authentic'. Some other guys said similar things though.

ziin wrote:

I hate overmapping in osu!. Some people like overmapping in osu!. They attribute it to "mapper style" and it is accepted by most of the community. In these cases, I usually vote the map lower than normal and it has pretty much no chance of being a favorite map of mine to play. Onosakihito clearly likes the exceptions or he wouldn't have suggested them. Whoever made the Taiko Oni he listed also likes them or that person wouldn't have made the map like that. That's at least 2 people who support this idea, and I'm positive there are many more who don't play osu! taiko but play some other form of taiko. Why should this not be a part of "mapper style"?
No one intervenes how mapper maps, but we are talking about standards for ranked maps. If certain 'mapping style' is simply denied and considered as annoying in the community, why should we accept that as a ranked ones while the community looked down it? Yeah that so-called 'mapping style' can have some supporters, but far from ranked ones until it accepted by the community.
Last edited by lepidopodus , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don
I wish taiko on osu! had authentic drumrolls xD
But changing that would involve a score reset more then likely.
Backfire
3,205 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire
What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
Last edited by Backfire , edited 2 times in total.
OnosakiHito
osu!taiko Paragon
6,846 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
OnosakiHito

mm201 wrote:

I think this needs to be left up to modders.
I'm still thinking about this. It's not a bad though. But atm just saying.

@ziin & lepidopodus:

lepidopodus you know(as ther others do), after poonwing, I'm also a big supporter of finishes at the end of a streams, but ziin, just at the end of a strem: At the end of a minimum 8-plet or 5-plets long 1/4 stream were a climax sound is clearly hearable.
I'm still not a supporter your idea.
Also the second one who made this map, was a Taiko jiro mapper and not authentic one. They have other mapping styles as the real authentic so use them as supporter is not helpfull at all. Sorry.

Watching trough suggested points now, to add them into the second list.
Last edited by OnosakiHito , edited 1 time in total.
Sander-Don
1,282 posts
Joined March 2010
Sander-Don

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
Backfire
3,205 posts
Joined February 2010
Backfire

Sander-Don wrote:

Backfire wrote:

What in the fuck is going on here.

Lemme make the rules, I'd make the best rules



no fucking shit unless 1.4 or 1.6 (1.6 kinda sucks), or alternatively, the bpm is over 250, make it 1.2 or if its over 280, make it 1.0.
No big notes in streemz
make sliders 1/2 after stream (unless it truely needs to be lead in) and streams 1/2 after sliders
Spinners can go on the end of streamz
You can use slow downs or speed ups unless there's overlap
Who gives a shit about combo colors or hitsounds, blue's come from wisleys or clappus anyways.
Ayyy no 1/8 nigga, unless you're doubling the SV and it's like the song has doubled it's bpm. Usually only on 100 or lower bpm songs
Countdowns are gay, breaks are gay
Difficulty should always be 5
Rests are for pussies

Ok, the end, I make the best rules.
You're so annoying.
Oh god.

Yeah, nice simple authentic-ish rules there, Sean.
Cept we have all these taiko newfags trying to change everything.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Shiro
Global Moderator
4,984 posts
Joined May 2009
Shiro
I'd like it if you could lower the tone, especially Backfire and Sander-Don. This thread is meant to discuss OnosakiHito's rules, not to insult other players or imply anything about them.
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