Let me remind you that this isn't taiko no tatsujin; it is osu!. Just like the osu! game mode, it will not be authentic. osu! was not made to limit users to particular boundaries placed on mappers in other games. The idea of this thread is to try and agree on a mid-ground that allows for flexibility but keeps maps playable and fun.
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Taiko Rules and Guidelines Discussion Thread (translated)
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TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
This is your opinion. The idea of this thread is to allow for more flexibility than what only you may want to see in a game.
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
And i'm not clinging on TnT. I thought this was how we always mapped?
My maps are as far from authentic as you can get. o-o;
Backfire wrote:
What exactly are we planning to change?
I don't wish to read 7 pages of walls of text.
Can I get a tl;dr?
New Rule: no finishes because they are super annoyinz [/sarcasm]Backfire wrote:
I 4gotted some of the most improratnt rule of all.
When you're using .50, or any slow down, stop using finishes. It's ugly and overlaps things TAT
And putting notes like O ooo O ooooo O ooooo O ooo O is super annoyinz. :v v: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
copy those rules then. Find them and translate them for this thread please.Backfire wrote:
TnT's things they do are damn good and there's like, literally no reason to change many things whatsoever.
Uhhhh
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
HP Drain should be 5 for pretty much everything. It's reasonable. If you can't pass it without 5, well, that's that. Get better, I guess.
What the heck does #2 mean?
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
I already stated about this, this is third: authentics might be a good reference, but cling to TnT isn't good for our reasoning. Attacking because it is authentic or non-authentic can't be justified in here.
@Backfire: I guess you need to read some more posts in here, HP drain isn't depends on the number of notes that much, but HP gain depends quite a lot on the number of notes. That means, if you are playing the map that is containing many notes, it would be really hard to pass.
About hitobject... errrr... Can you explain, Onosakihito? I don't get that too, lol.
Topic Starter
We had no rules, just guidelines. And some of them need an update as in the first post mentioned before.Backfire wrote:
I'm not particularly sure what was wrong with our old rules in the first place.
peppy showed me right now that my first post is understandable. Thank you.
Exactly.lepidopodus wrote:
I already said to cling to TnT things weakens our reasoning, guys. To be honest, lots of mappers' style is already quite far from authentic maps.
@Backfire: Sander-Don showed you the picture allready but one more thing from me: Please read the whole first post and the second one. It has a reason why it is so long. Most things are allready explained there and need mostly necessary improvements or just agreements.
Anyway, give me now a bit time guys, to update the new discussed possible changes. Please.
Ok ok
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
Let's just say we don't use TnT "rules"
So what now?
They cover almost EVERYTHING >EXCEPT< some overlapping problems (finishes at .50 speed), speed up problems (making a fast slider which overlaps other notes, like in Mata Saitama), and differences between readability between osu!taiko and TnT.
osu!taiko is almost the same thing. There's only mild differences. Aren't these rules already covered in the rules ono has put up, or am I forgetting some things?
Right, and rests are generally a good idea. For longer and/or faster maps. I was joking in my post :v
we are done. I agree with you on all the rules except the xxxdD or xxxkD (which I am still unsure of). I was criticizing backfires poor attitude towards this thread.lepidopodus wrote:
@ziin: Can you just stop? Seriously, it is just trolling to us.
@Backfire: To tell the truth, there isn't real 'authentic rule' or something. We just interprete Namco's maps and find some 'rules', then consider them as so-called 'authentic rules'. Yeah that was basis of lots of Taiko maps even in here, but as time goes on, people start trying new things, so now we are a bit far from that. (Hey even Namco tried new things these days...) Currently we are here to state exact rule for us, not authentic things or something, so would you stop talking about authentics in here? Someone will hate that.
I'm saying "rules" because they are just what I have always interpreted the game this way.
If authenticity is all you care about, you should include the 999 combo rule.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
Edit: To clarify, authenticity is nice. I use lots of Ouendan authentic rules in my maps because I think they make tidier, more fun maps. But I wouldn't force them on others.
@^: But we abolished that 999 rule with our own hands in previous 'agreement'. Hey and after that, Namco abolished that rule too, lol.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
@Backfire: It is fine to have your own opinion, but justifying these like 'it is authentic!', hmm... Might work with some Taiko guys, but not in the official discussion thread. So find your own reasonings, please.
Authenticity?
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
Seriously, I gotta tell you, my maps are very un-authentic. They play nothing like TnT shit. I dont care about how authentic it is, just if it plays, looks, sounds good. With the rules I have set in my mind, I can consistently get quality out of my taiko maps (IMO), which includes not using 1/8, low SV, finishes in the middle of streams and etc.
999 is only for novelty now, and should only be considered as such, plus they dont even do that anymore :v
So as far as i can see:
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
Soft-sampleset is banned from Taiko until mm201 fixes whatever it needs to be fixed and it's in public build.
Hp gain is based off hit object density, so hp drain should be reduced when maps are longer and have more notes otherwise you might fail with 1 miss after say... 200 perfect combo.
Big notes, dont make really much sense to be put in middle of the streams for reasons to be, mapping to a different instrument in middle of the stream, it's like putting a hitobject on osu! for every sound of every instrument that you hear within the song, show me any song that has enphasis on the same instrument doing the stream and i may agree to it being a special case, and EVEN THEN, those songs are really rare enough to be considered only on a case by case basis.
I'll just throw my opinion on these.OnosakiHito wrote:
~Discussions~
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
Maybe we could divide the playfield placing notes under each snap division, in a specific area? I mean, some maps just throw them all in random places, and when we need to pick a certain note in the mid of that 1/6 hell, we end up missclicking and raging at the timeline.
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
This would allow an easier hitsounding and visibility imo. Meh....
Leaving beat snap on should be good enough. No need for an unwritten convention most modders will be unaware of.
Topic Starter
~Information~
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
Please take the rules in the first post as starting point for your suggestion/opinion/critic.
To avoid repeating rules or points which have been allready written down/discussed(or still discussed) please watch first trough the first and second post of this thread.
~Discussions~~Update~
- Opinions for the rules
- Exact limit for finishes needed(take the rules in the first post as starting point)
- should be monoton streams with hitfinish(kkkkK/ddddD) be banned?
- dropping Hp Drain based off the length of the song
- including reasonable hitobject-placement?
- reccomendation to use claps, not whistles for kat
I would greatly prefer the ability to change the playback rate of gameplay while testing the map. This would prove infinitely more useful than any "convention" for modders. Modders need to be looking directly at the gameplay to be able to make suggestions.Dragvon wrote:
So uh... I've made some "guidelines"(?) to what it could like to make it more "mod-friendly"
ddddD should be considered equivalent to DD. Doubles aren't as hard as triples or longer.
Topic Starter
Purple bolded suggestions will be added/edit in the first post.
lepidopodus wrote:
Difficulty Settings and Song Setup
OD 5-7 for Onis, but easier ones can have lower OD.
As sakura hana stated, it's better to lower HP drain when you are making long maps cause filling HP bar depends on the length but draining HP bar isn't depends on the length so it is much harder to fill HP bar in long maps.
Circle size affects star rating of difficulty, so you might want to adjust that with circle size.
OnosakiHito: I should mentione that easier one can have lower OD.
About the circle size > Well, if we would know how the star system works... orz
Countdown
Personally I think countdown isn't that suit for Taiko.
Slider Velocity
Standard SV is 1.4 for every situation. Adjusting it is optional. I don't think 1.6 is a recommendation.
Don't need to regulate SV, I guess. But we can state when adjusting SV is better, like current statement.
Maps with BPM change can use fixed SV. (Speed of notes never changes even with BPM change. You can apply this to your map via custom SV settings for every uninherited timing sections.)
OnosakiHito: Yeah 1.60 is just good for slower BPM(Note: Visual aspect is importand).
Finish Notes
Don't make these notes cover another notes. But we now can weaken big notes restrictions by allowing them in the end of the streams, like current rule suggestion by Ono.
Note Streams
This depends on songs. If the song has 1/4, use 1/4. If it has 1/3, use 1/3. But 1/8 isn't recommended.
Kiai time
Yeah I agree with Ono about this thing.
Drumrolls(Sliders)
Putting ordinary note 1/4 before drumroll is OK.
'Don't use sliders for 125 BPM songs or lower...'? Thinking about how was original drumroll is, we don't need to regulate using drumrolls in low BPM.
OnosakiHito: So we let the mapper decide in this case?
Spinner
Depending on songs, using this in row is OK. Don't need to state like 'Do not put more than 2 spinners in a row', it is just 'not recommended', not prohibited or something.
And yeah, short spinner spam is bad.
OnosakiHito: I agree.
BPM Changes
Example in 1st page, well, that is kinda special thing. Don't use it with complex streams please.
You can use drumrolls or spinners to avoid overlapping notes.
OnosakiHito: I agree.
Breaks
No need to remove that artificially cause it's annoying. Breaks might be ok with really long songs.
Rest Moments
Yeah sometimes players need short rest.
Custom Hitbursts
This can be really annoying if mapper use wrong hitburst. Fortunatly we don't experience these kind of problems these days.
Custom Hitsounds
Volume can be changed if the song get loud or silent or somthing.
Should be audible of course, that is why I don't like soft hitsound. In Taiko skin, soft hitsound is too hard to hear. But we still have default skin or others. Need more talk about this, I guess.
In my opinion, yes, we don't need to regulate that. If it spammed, everyone will notice so no need to worry about this.Onosakihito wrote:
So we let the mapper decide in this case?
Originally drumroll was 'hit as much as you want'. It is changed like current ones cause some guys using bad ways to achieve more score via this. (Yeah wmfchris stated about this already.) That is why I said 'Considering original meaning of drum rolls blahblahblah'.
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Love wrote:
Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Oh, I see the DIS OSU! NOT TAIKO OI OI OI wave has already arrived... to be expected.
BACKFIRE'S RULEZ R DA BEST~!~~! (SRS) (Seriously)
BACKFIRE'S RULEZ R DA BEST~!~~! (SRS) (Seriously)
except for 7 OD right?Love wrote:
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
This could be unuseful.
Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
You have some typo here:
Won't it be better to say "Rules, Guidelines and Information" in front of "Rules", as, from what I see, It's a mixup of those.
You have some typo here:
- The generel use must be ,,Normal", not ,,soft" because the option ,,soft" makes the hitcircles too quite.corrected to:
- The hitsounds set you use must be the Normal, not the Soft one, because Soft make the hitsounds too quietThis was the most visible (ask someone better in English than me a general correction of the grammar (maybe of the terms too))
BreaksI would say that it's actually better not allowing them on song shorter than like 2 minutes, avoiding them with less than 3 minutes, and suggesting them on song longer than 5.
Break sections are not allowed and should be artificially removed from .osu.
Exeptions: A song has a short empty period of time or the song it self is pretty long.
Breaks
Break sections are not allowed in songs that are shorter than 120 seconds, and should be avoided of the song is less than 180 seconds long. Neverthless, is suggested to have a some breaks on longer song(like from 300 seconds or so).
Yup.ziin wrote:
except for 7 OD right?Love wrote:
Well, inb4 retarded maps and other crap cause Ono wanted to feel special and change things. Rokodo's guidelines were and always will be perfect.
Unlocked. Please show respect to each other or the topic will need to be closed for good.
Topic Starter
Thank you mm201.
spboxer3 reminded me this one:
Videoany opinions about this? :3
Video should not be put in the taiko diff because it's partially covered by the taiko bar.
I still don't see the harm in including the video. It's not like you're actually watching the video while playing anyway. You just lose the passive indirect visual appeal if you remove the video... :/
Good mappers would actually make an effort to make a video Taiko-ready but that would be kind of a waste of space
Good mappers would actually make an effort to make a video Taiko-ready but that would be kind of a waste of space
What. It should be generally 8OD or 7OD. The perfect OD is actually 7.5 but we don't have that hereLove wrote:
Yup.ziin wrote:
except for 7 OD right?
I don't care about video. No harm, I guess.
@Zekira: Unfortunatly, consensus does not support OD over 7 yet.
@Zekira: Unfortunatly, consensus does not support OD over 7 yet.
I won't push this at all, because I already know the answer from the consensus and the gist of what they will say, but OD is there to make the map harder. No matter the way you put it, the scores will always be fair, and the likelihood of an SS just goes down, making it that much harder to tie.
As far as video goes, there is a toggle for that. You shouldn't remove something that is easily, easily removed with absolutely no penalty whatsoever and no effect on gameplay other than a minor distraction to those who consider it a distraction.
btw, OD5 is 100 ms range, OD7 is 76 ms, OD8 is 64 ms.
As far as video goes, there is a toggle for that. You shouldn't remove something that is easily, easily removed with absolutely no penalty whatsoever and no effect on gameplay other than a minor distraction to those who consider it a distraction.
btw, OD5 is 100 ms range, OD7 is 76 ms, OD8 is 64 ms.
@^:
Furthermore We prefer various hard patterns/streams made of don/kat combination of notes rather than raising OD when we are making hard Taiko maps. I guess I can say that concept of 'hard map' itself is a bit different. (Of course there is overlapping features but preferred style is completely different.)
So would you stop reflecting your experiences from being osu standard mapper into here?
Or you just want to throw flame here, huh?
About Video, I don't want to remove that from maps completely, but actually lots of Taiko mappers tend to exclude video from their map. Our consensus about that matter is not so certain right now, so we are talking about it. I don't think we end up restricting this, but if lots of guys seriously want that, we may think about it.
Videos in Taiko map can be a bit distracting cause we need to distinguish color of notes in order to play Taiko properly. Even with dark rail of notes, some guys still think that videos are too distracting when playing Taiko. I personally don't agree with those ideas though. (As you said we can simply turn off videos by setting no video options, yes.)
p.s.: If you say that cause Zekira prefer higher OD than now but I said I prefer lower ones, you should know this: he just like higher OD cause he thinks it is easy too get 良(equivalent to 300 in osu standard gameplay) in here than Taiko no Tatsujin. Yeah he is talking about it based on authentic features. Zekira is one of die-hard supporters of Taiko no Tatsujin authentic style of playing/mapping.
(Whoops, I'm not criticizing you, Zek. I just give some explanation about this. We already talked about that OD things in aquabluu's thread before, right?)
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
EDI2:
Maybe we can increase OD recommendation upto 8 if Zekira want it that seriously, but I guess we should find more supporters of him.(Except that ziin guy.)
The most used and recommended lvl's here are: OD/HP 5~7We didn't restricted this at all. I guess I said that this rules also function as guideline? Note density of Taiko maps are usually higher than osu standard, too high OD can be quite annoying cause it increases possibility to get combo break even more than you think. We felt quite uncomfortable, so we stated that. Some newbie mappers do this mistake(usually because they just think concept of OD same as it from osu standard), so we made recommendations. Is that THAT big problem? (Again, If player don't want to place these kind of restrictions anymore, WE Taiko men will abolish them, not by others. Since it is recommendation, if mappers start to prefer higher OD than that, all we have to do is identify our consensus then update it.)
Furthermore We prefer various hard patterns/streams made of don/kat combination of notes rather than raising OD when we are making hard Taiko maps. I guess I can say that concept of 'hard map' itself is a bit different. (Of course there is overlapping features but preferred style is completely different.)
So would you stop reflecting your experiences from being osu standard mapper into here?
About Video, I don't want to remove that from maps completely, but actually lots of Taiko mappers tend to exclude video from their map. Our consensus about that matter is not so certain right now, so we are talking about it. I don't think we end up restricting this, but if lots of guys seriously want that, we may think about it.
Videos in Taiko map can be a bit distracting cause we need to distinguish color of notes in order to play Taiko properly. Even with dark rail of notes, some guys still think that videos are too distracting when playing Taiko. I personally don't agree with those ideas though. (As you said we can simply turn off videos by setting no video options, yes.)
p.s.: If you say that cause Zekira prefer higher OD than now but I said I prefer lower ones, you should know this: he just like higher OD cause he thinks it is easy too get 良(equivalent to 300 in osu standard gameplay) in here than Taiko no Tatsujin. Yeah he is talking about it based on authentic features. Zekira is one of die-hard supporters of Taiko no Tatsujin authentic style of playing/mapping.
(Whoops, I'm not criticizing you, Zek. I just give some explanation about this. We already talked about that OD things in aquabluu's thread before, right?)
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.
EDI2:
Maybe we can increase OD recommendation upto 8 if Zekira want it that seriously, but I guess we should find more supporters of him.
Well recently i've been useing a transparent hitburst for taiko (Just like most players do with osu! so they only see when they hit a 100), the regular one is annoying on stream maps and such. And cuts down on all the flashy stuff.lepidopodus wrote:
EDIT:
Maybe it would be better to state clearly that using bad custom hitburst is bad. (For example, using hitburst from osu standard skin. Lots of them hides judgement circle(...uh, what is exact name of this?), and doesn't even match to Taiko score system. (osu standard: 300/100/50, Taiko: 300/150)
Though it isn't really needed cause nobody is doing that these days.