if it ends up being wrong somehow wcyd, we're going with the best thing we found

gg then lets just go with this

He changed stuff, it pushed it enough in the direction that I thought it should go, I didn't wanna push harder on some of the stuff I vetoed the map for, everyone was ok with it in that discussion, end of story. Think about what sort of behavior you're actually trying to incentivize here - someone who does not reply, does not relent, does not care about your opinion and will not try to justify himself or negotiate.

I don't wanna comment on the 2nd point, and I'll say the quick write-up u followed "the professional part of the veto" with is not very NAT-like of u

The part that I shared my opinion on the ranked section as it stands? Since I'm not here to have an opinion, I'm here to be the guy that poops on your cereal? Right.

Vetoes are such a fun system where you are expected to be 100% objective on a subjective matter, have to relent and compromise and if you do you're just a pussy and if you don't you are literally a nazi, and where you cannot share any of your opinions even though everyone else in the thread and world is expected to share theirs and simultaneously shit on you for the "opinion" you vetoed the map with.

This matter is settled. It has been settled with mapset host, GDers and the like. Everyone who I discussed with to post this veto either didn't care enough to be in the discussions, couldn't, or was content with the changes. Don't unsettle it again.

That's it for my replies here.

My bad i hit the wrong button lmao

Adapting basen's argument here, drawing a line for one map that's hard to enforce for other maps is the wrong move. If we were to draw a line, it'd need to be appropriately enforced for every map equally. While the veto had good intentions and I still believe that there are problems in the map and that they weren't fully solved, there was some compromise from the mappers.

Considering I'm an NAT and am in a position to push change better than anyone else, I can relent my position here and just try to push structural change to appropriately draw that line. Vetoing this as I realized halfway through is quite pointless.

Also if you believe the map was just made worse by whatever we compromised on then I don't know what to tell you. The concerns were at least partially touched upon and partially fixed - it truly is bizarro world when someone vetoes something and is criticized for it but lifts the veto after diplomatically talking and coming to a compromise with the mappers and is criticized by the same people. If you want me to reopen the veto so much just veto it yourself dude.

I don't think I was wrong but I also don't think this is a battle I should fight here. Vetoes are negative experiences for everyone involved and I don't wanna poo on anyone's cereal for longer than this.

2294787#4862804/12884002 You're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe.

I wanted to resolve the veto in a middle ground rather than forcing my views even further and I believe the changes at least went partly in the way to mend some of the issues I had. If you are so insistent on this I can always just stonewall vetoes, plant my boots firmly on the ground and leave them up to mediation next time this happens, but I reckon that's not what either of us wants from this, no?

veto lifted after latest set of changes (reform diff somewhat overhauled, top 3 diffs buffing outro and changing bits of the second half of kiai)

@basen Vetoes exist so much in the context they are made that they can be disputed over and over again and reach different conclusions - they're a product of their environment and meta established at that time. Stuff like the Spelunker veto is living proof of that. The reasons for the veto stay the same but the people that interpret it and the context around it shifts to invalidate it.

why do we have to blatantly lie be so for fucking real for once, if you copy pasted the same exact reform diff at the same sr except all the jump spikes were replaced with some repeated gimmicky wide angle linear whatever the fuck instead of comfy optimized pp farm BUZZWORD BUZZWORD patterning, not only would you not care, you also wouldnt even have heard of this map in the first place, so no veto would be dropped onto the thread.

This seems like a couple leaps of logic - if I perceive a song as being deserving of a certain kind of map and difficulty and I see something completely different representing it, I'd call it, usually, bad (in my limited worldview). If enough people see it that way, it becomes bad by consensus. If I talked to people I discuss mapping with about a map in the way you've described and they perceive it as bad, it could (and probably would) result in a veto. The only reason why I'm even here is a discussion of this map being brought up and someone being too tired to veto it.

realize that perpetuating the cycle by creating new arbitrary lines that are blatantly never gonna be applied on nearly enough of a consistent basis across all maps is not a good permanent solution or even a decent temporary one.

Maybe realize that the reason why this "reactionary" behavior is even happening is that people like you contributed to bulldoze any semblance of line that existed beforehand. This line is logically important as it's not only one of the only metrics BNs can be judged on (not anymore, but alas), but prevents abuse cases from being ranked, prevents the ranked section from being swarmed by the full outright effect of algorithmic supply/demand basically forcing mappers to adapt to the incessant demand for what is essentially the same thing(s) and causing lower playcounts and impressions for everyone, including those who partake in whatever the meta may be, and prevents this system that's an elegant incentive for mappers and players alike from collapsing in on itself. If I'm the one that has to fight this battle and draw the line again or if it's someone else at some other point, all I know is that it HAS to be drawn.

The issue in this veto is not about pp - stop trying to make it about pp, it could be removed from the game and this map would still have the same issues. pp is the root cause for it to be put onto the canvas here, but the issue exists regardless of cause.

@visionary the strain graph is just meant to support the point because it's largely the only """""good""""" visualizer of difficulty that isn't just me telling you the difficulty spikes a ton or you looking at the map yourself - the patterns may be overweighted but the point exists regardless.

spotify isn't a primary source so it should only be used if a primary source doesnt exist

if theres a way you can check strive credits or something that might work but otherwise we'll just have to use this