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pp: new ranking system

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_Angel
So, for good perfomance I have to stop skilling up, and i need just to play every single map with hd over9000 times until got SS?

BlazingFX
No just get good, even with bad accuracy, then come back and fix it once you're good
Topic Starter
kriers

_Angel wrote:

So, for good perfomance I have to stop skilling up, and i need just to play every single map with hd over9000 times until got SS?
Stop skilling up? I don't get it.
JappyBabes

kriers wrote:

_Angel wrote:

So, for good perfomance I have to stop skilling up, and i need just to play every single map with hd over9000 times until got SS?
Stop skilling up? I don't get it.
I'd assume not playing maps with difficult mods because SS is worth more.
Ohrami
DoubleTime reduces the timing window for hitting a 300 by 1.5x. DoubleTime also makes the player play 1.5x as fast on top of this. Because of this, people typically aren't as accurate as with Hidden, which is basically just an alternate approach circle. Accuracy is rewarded just fine in this game. Score needs to be the main focus of this ranking system because of the reasons I listed on page 58.
peppy
Here's a little suggestion guys: rather than listening to these preachers, go improve your scores and watch your pp increase. Don't examine too closely because I guarantee that is counter-productive. I know how this game works; I know the flaws of the score system and I know how to solve them. This is my solution.
Topic Starter
kriers
I'd like to know, though. Is this an act to revert player's focus away from DT spam and back on to SS ranking again?
BlazingFX
Well if you're good at DT like Black Sheep or something, works the same!
thelewa
This is a rhythm game. People tend to forget that simple thing for some reason.

So yeah, accuracy should be considered more than it is right now, so I'm glad about this.
dNextGen
so basically SS no-mod is worth more than DT,right ?



peppy
so basically no, you are misunderstanding everything.
GladiOol
dNextGen go sleep, this system is awesome.

I love you peppy, though I do not love you for not making me #1 in it.
YodaSnipe
^i lol'd
_Angel

dNextGen wrote:

so basically SS no-mod is worth more than DT,right ?



Basically, if you have been breaking your fingers while trying to pass insane with DT, and finally have passed map with 93% you are noob,
But if you have passed this map with hd, or even without mods, with SS mark - you are pro.
peppy
Incorrect. Speculation is okay, but stop assuming you know how the calculation is done. It will only confuse people.

And due to that, I'm unlinking this thread from the performance ranking page. Farewell~.
Hanyuu
So do you guys only want to know how pp works and play for it? Its a new ranking (or judgement) system alot of people wished for and now we have it and you are going crazy about it lol.
Why dont you just keep playing as you used to before, its not like this would change your playstyle or anything. peppy allready said it is fair and favors skills so...
Drafura

peppy wrote:

Accuracy > All (and nothin' you say can change my mind on that one).
Not trying to change your mind but is this true for CtB ?

I mean if you can't stand the speed on standard DT but still FC the map and get a poor acc I understand you're not totally rewarded, but I don't think Accu on CtB have to worth same...
aRtii-

ragelewa wrote:

This is a rhythm game. People tend to forget that simple thing for some reason.

So yeah, accuracy should be considered more than it is right now, so I'm glad about this.
you're forgetting about the grid http://osu.ppy.sh/b/87570
Wishy

ragelewa wrote:

This is a rhythm game. People tend to forget that simple thing for some reason.

So yeah, accuracy should be considered more than it is right now, so I'm glad about this.
Following fast rhythms is harder than following slow rhythms. With your reasoning lewa if you just mapped some [Easy] and put OD 10, what result do you think you'll get? Think about it, this game is about aim and accuracy, if you want some accuracy game only go play Taiko on relax.

peppy wrote:

Here's a little suggestion guys: rather than listening to these preachers, go improve your scores and watch your pp increase. Don't examine too closely because I guarantee that is counter-productive. I know how this game works; I know the flaws of the score system and I know how to solve them. This is my solution.
Your problem was, is and probably will ever be that you don't play the game. Getting SS HD is easier than DT HD / HR HD 94~96%.

If you don't want to explain how this works then I guess this could be farmed if we knew how it works, right? :P
Salvage
@peppy: What if i take a break of like 3 months or so from the game and lose a LOT of pp points, then come back, will i lose all the good scores points i did in the past? will all those good scores be lost and i'll have to do points in another way? .. i find that kind of odd, i mean comming back should restore the points you had before, after ceirtan weeks imo.


also i agree with lewa and kriers on this, i love that one ^__^, rythim and accuracy > all,



haters gonna hate and potatoes gonna potato
YodaSnipe
Iono about all the complicated stuff and I'm not gonna make assumptions but, I had an SSHD on a map that I DT HDed and went up pp :/

and my accuracy on that map was like 96 or something.
Soly
As long as the new accuracy focal point affects PP and not the actual score you get for the map I see no problem. So people going for DT+HD records still get #1 on a map but they wouldn't get as much PP as someone who got SS and HD and is rank #30 on that same map. This gives mouse only players a chance to strut their stuff in terms of skill measurement, mainly because competing against a tablet player mouse only you stand no chance whatsoever and mouse only requires alot of skill, this evens the playing field a bit.

Or maybe I got it wrong..this new system is a little confusing.
Wishy
It's the same as what Metro wanted to do/did at IDL, if you're good you gonna get back your points by playing like you used to do. :P

@Salvage.
ReVeNg3r
and what about FL+HD?
maal
this is still donkey dick
Soly

ReVeNg3r wrote:

and what about FL+HD?
I don't know, I'm just playing around with ideas. I'd assume accuracy is still more important than anything. FL would just mainly contribute to score rather than PP or something. IDK lol.
YodaSnipe
Soly totally just started a mouse is harder than tablet debate.
Mesita
i think people are getting this wrong. Maybe SSHD gets some more "points" than DTHD, but maybe this "bonus points" are multiplied on some factor by the score or position(ranking) u get on the map, so after all math is done ... DTHD still gets u a little more pp than SSHD. I might be wrong or not, but we won't know till peppy wants we to know his pp calculation algorithm. Untill that, we can only speculate
JappyBabes
Some what surprised that 'JappyBabes achieved rank #43 on Misato Aki - Sayonara Kimi no Koe [Insane] (osu!)' got barely any PP for me, considering that it's a fairly popular map.

Mesita wrote:

Untill that, we can only speculate
This.
Soly

YodaSnipe wrote:

Soly totally just started a mouse is harder than tablet debate.
No, I just feel that good mouse players shouldn't fade into obscurity. And yeah, it is harder. The fact that you think it isn't degrades good mouse players.
ReVeNg3r

Soly wrote:

I don't know, I'm just playing around with ideas. I'd assume accuracy is still more important than anything. FL would just mainly contribute to score rather than PP or something. IDK lol.
and what when someone can fc a really insane map with low acc? still is acc more important ?
YodaSnipe

Soly wrote:

No, I just feel that good mouse players shouldn't fade into obscurity. And yeah, it is harder. The fact that you think it isn't degrades good mouse players.
quite the contrary. I have the utmost respect for mouse players. silvia, and kriers, and silentwings are three of my favourite osu! players... sooo... yeah?
Mesita

ReVeNg3r wrote:

Soly wrote:

I don't know, I'm just playing around with ideas. I'd assume accuracy is still more important than anything. FL would just mainly contribute to score rather than PP or something. IDK lol.
and what when someone can fc a really insane map with low acc? still is acc more important ?
omg, ofc yes, a higher acc will mean a higher ranking on the said map--> higher ranking and higher acc --> more pp.
Salvage

Soly wrote:

As long as the new accuracy focal point affects PP and not the actual score you get for the map I see no problem. So people going for DT+HD records still get #1 on a map but they wouldn't get as much PP as someone who got SS and HD and is rank #30 on that same map. This gives mouse only players a chance to strut their stuff in terms of skill measurement, mainly because competing against a tablet player mouse only you stand no chance whatsoever and mouse only requires alot of skill, this evens the playing field a bit.

Or maybe I got it wrong..this new system is a little confusing.

Yes, you got it wrong.


accuracy matters but not to that extreme


YodaSnipe wrote:

Soly wrote:

No, I just feel that good mouse players shouldn't fade into obscurity. And yeah, it is harder. The fact that you think it isn't degrades good mouse players.
quite the contrary. I have the utmost respect for mouse players. silvia, and kriers, and silentwings are three of my favourite osu! players... sooo... yeah?

WHAT ABOUT GLADI, DISRESPECTTTTTTTTTT
YodaSnipe
I said three of my favourites. ofc Gladi is my all-time favourite. I just didn't wanna make the rest look bad naturally
ReVeNg3r

Salvage wrote:

accuracy matters but not to that extreme
^^
RaneFire
Hate me if you like, I'm just gonna say some noob shit:

I'm not against the Double Time mod... I am against players who play tap/x for the sole reason of DT'ing high BPM. It's speed with 2 hands which they don't have with 1 hand.

I've tried a lot of play-styles and I gotta say tap/x is pretty darn unstable. I respect the players who get good accuracy with tap/x, but I don't think 94% is high enough, 97/98% is more respectable.
_Angel
yesterday I've updated my DT maps with ~92%, which was passed with much effort and over9000 retries, to first-try HD 98%, and today my pp grown up.
I agree with Wishy22, Peppy know game from his #50 000 rank, and has no idea how hard DT93% could be.
Natteke
I like the new system. Jussayian.

_Angel wrote:

I agree with Wishy22, Peppy know game from his #50 000 rank, and has no idea how hard DT93% could be.
Wishy
Like it or not it's true, you just need to play the game to know some stuff. Peppy won't really see some things players do see, same with any user who doesn't actually play the game but just watch it.

Hope he'll eventually play his own game and start seeing some things.
Krisom
Before this turns into a discussion of "How does player ranking affect your knowledge about the game", let's not.

This thread is to discuss the New Ranking system, not to discuss about how much does peppy knows his own game. Everyone will have their own opinions on that subject and none of them holds the absolute truth (unless you've traveled inside peppy's mind), so let's just keep this thread for what it was meant to be.

Also guys, don't act like you alredy know how the new system works. This shall be revealed with time, but for now, don't go on assuming peppy did things he did not or put words in his mouth he did not say.
Tom69_old
Let's assume there is a player getting SS with HD on a common OD, say 7 or 8.
The same player is playing this map with DT+HD now and achieves 96% accuracy.

But is this really a lower accuracy? If we take OD into account it might not be.
If we measure accuracy not relatively to OD, BUT in the absolute offset of each hit, actually 96% DT+HD can and often IS better than SS HD. In terms of absolute time, the player actually was more accurate.
Not to mention that one has to keep an even faster pace with the rythm.
Same goes with HR+HD.

Of course this isn't specificly the case for OD 9 or 10, but I rarely, rarely see OD 9 used on a map... and I never saw OD 10 on a map.

Another indicator for this is that commonly on maps which actually have HD+DT 96% scores in the toplist, there often are pretty much SS HD scores.


Not saying anyone is wrong or right, just pointing something out.
GladiOol

Natteke wrote:

I like the new system. Jussayian.

_Angel wrote:

I agree with Wishy22, Peppy know game from his #50 000 rank, and has no idea how hard DT93% could be.
pretty much this facepalm.

Acc is important in a rhythm game. I think this is pretty logical.
Colored
http://puu.sh/qT3l hatsune miku > all pros D:
he play only normals and some hard diffs ._.
Ohrami

RaneFire wrote:

Hate me if you like, I'm just gonna say some noob shit:

I'm not against the Double Time mod... I am against players who play tap/x for the sole reason of DT'ing high BPM. It's speed with 2 hands which they don't have with 1 hand.

I've tried a lot of play-styles and I gotta say tap/x is pretty darn unstable. I respect the players who get good accuracy with tap/x, but I don't think 94% is high enough, 97/98% is more respectable.
Please go be an idiot elsewhere.

Soly wrote:

As long as the new accuracy focal point affects PP and not the actual score you get for the map I see no problem. So people going for DT+HD records still get #1 on a map but they wouldn't get as much PP as someone who got SS and HD and is rank #30 on that same map. This gives mouse only players a chance to strut their stuff in terms of skill measurement, mainly because competing against a tablet player mouse only you stand no chance whatsoever and mouse only requires alot of skill, this evens the playing field a bit.
Oh God, stop being so stupid.

Also, no. Hatsune Miku is #1 with Flashlight on plenty of Insanes.
RaneFire
Kyou-kun isn't making himself look good, is this normal?
thelewa

Mesita wrote:

i think people are getting this wrong. Maybe SSHD gets some more "points" than DTHD, but maybe this "bonus points" are multiplied on some factor by the score or position(ranking) u get on the map, so after all math is done ... DTHD still gets u a little more pp than SSHD. I might be wrong or not, but we won't know till peppy wants we to know his pp calculation algorithm. Untill that, we can only speculate
QFT

Wishy22 wrote:

Following fast rhythms is harder than following slow rhythms.
I'm not sure if you're serious or not. High bpm songs with high OD are way easier to get good accuracy in than low bpm songs with high OD. Because the song is slower, you have more time to think about hitting the circle, more time to hesitate.
Tanzklaue

ragelewa wrote:

Mesita wrote:

i think people are getting this wrong. Maybe SSHD gets some more "points" than DTHD, but maybe this "bonus points" are multiplied on some factor by the score or position(ranking) u get on the map, so after all math is done ... DTHD still gets u a little more pp than SSHD. I might be wrong or not, but we won't know till peppy wants we to know his pp calculation algorithm. Untill that, we can only speculate
QFT

Wishy22 wrote:

Following fast rhythms is harder than following slow rhythms.
I'm not sure if you're serious or not. High bpm songs with high OD are way easier to get good accuracy in than low bpm songs with high OD. Because the song is slower, you have more time to think about hitting the circle, more time to hesitate.
low BPM (I mean, really low BPM, around 110-140) are really hard to get good accuracy on, because you are most likely not able to slow down, or you just aren't patience enough. some people who can stream 220BPM with ease aren't able to stream 130 BPM. on this maps, DT does make it easier for many players to get a good accuracy on. I say on many low BPM maps DT is easier than other mods for most people in osu.
ReVeNg3r

Salvage wrote:

accuracy matters but not to that extreme
....
galvenize

ragelewa wrote:

Wishy22 wrote:

Following fast rhythms is harder than following slow rhythms.
I'm not sure if you're serious or not. High bpm songs with high OD are way easier to get good accuracy in than low bpm songs with high OD. Because the song is slower, you have more time to think about hitting the circle, more time to hesitate.
In high bpms maps you have less time to think about hitting the circle, less time to make a good decision?
What I mean is that in the end, it's all the same.

People usually find it "harder" because they lack the training and skills to play low bpm maps since they're used to play high bpms ones. I mean admit it, in your whole osu career, 80% of the maps you've played/spammed/grinded are high BPM ones. Under no circumstances do I agree to believe that low BPM is harder to acc on.

That said, I also acc better on let's say Taketori Hishou than I would on Shoreline on the first try...
lolcubes

Tom94 wrote:

Let's assume there is a player getting SS with HD on a common OD, say 7 or 8.
The same player is playing this map with DT+HD now and achieves 96% accuracy.

But is this really a lower accuracy? If we take OD into account it might not be.
If we measure accuracy not relatively to OD, BUT in the absolute offset of each hit, actually 96% DT+HD can and often IS better than SS HD. In terms of absolute time, the player actually was more accurate.
Not to mention that one has to keep an even faster pace with the rythm.
Same goes with HR+HD.

Of course this isn't specificly the case for OD 9 or 10, but I rarely, rarely see OD 9 used on a map... and I never saw OD 10 on a map.

Another indicator for this is that commonly on maps which actually have HD+DT 96% scores in the toplist, there often are pretty much SS HD scores.


Not saying anyone is wrong or right, just pointing something out.
You yourself have a SS on OD10 though. ;) (hard rock on OD8 = OD10)

But yeah, I can confirm what lewa is saying to be true, higher OD on lower bpm is harder to keep a good accuracy on than on higher bpm. If you are capable of playing, let's say 220 bpm 1/2s normally (on OD8), it would feel kinda the same as something like 160 bpm OD7 or 120 bpm OD6. Atleast that's how it feels to me.
thelewa
I'm not saying that it's harder for me to get high acc on low bpm.

I'm just speaking based on what I've noticed. I've noticed that many people have problems with low bpm songs.
Liut
you guys should just stop complaining , the new system it's still better then the old :|
Ohrami

RaneFire wrote:

Kyou-kun isn't making himself look good, is this normal?
Sorry. I'll be over here full comboing 300 BPM streams while you complain about it.

Also, the claim that lower BPM is harder to get good accuracy on than higher BPM is just absurd.
GladiOol

Kyou-kun wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

Kyou-kun isn't making himself look good, is this normal?
Sorry. I'll be over here full comboing 300 BPM streams while you complain about it.
Ohrami
Of course I can't full combo long ones beyond maybe 20 or so hits, and I can't do it accurately or consistently, but it wouldn't be possible for me without tap/x.
bomber34
I just wonder if the system also detects your play style, because mouse only is considered to be the hardest way to play.
ReVeNg3r

GladiOol wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

Sorry. I'll be over here full comboing 300 BPM streams while you complain about it.
muhuhahahaha-......
Ohrami

bomber34 wrote:

I just wonder if the system also detects your play style, because mouse only is considered to be the hardest way to play.
No, it's considered the hardest way to play by idiots. Also, no. It doesn't detect your play style. Why would you even think it could do that?
lolcubes

ragelewa wrote:

I'm not saying that it's harder for me to get high acc on low bpm.

I'm just speaking based on what I've noticed. I've noticed that many people have problems with low bpm songs.
Never said that though, just said what I think based on what you said.

Kyou-kun wrote:

Also, the claim that lower BPM is harder to get good accuracy on than higher BPM is just absurd.
This is true, however on the same OD it is harder. Most people don't even look at OD though. Also I guess this differs from person to person.
RaneFire

Kyou-kun wrote:

RaneFire wrote:

Kyou-kun isn't making himself look good, is this normal?
Sorry. I'll be over here full comboing 300 BPM streams while you complain about it.
You seem to think that your skill and knowledge of osu! defines your worth as a human being and that you deserve respect for being good at a game. This is a public forum, I raised a point, and you effectively said "no, fuck you."

At least add something constructive instead of insulting people, give reasons. If you don't care though, then you honestly shouldn't be posting. Share your wonderful knowledge of osu! and don't be a dick. You complain about Kaoru, but he's right behind you on your top ranks, and you're so "far" ahead only because of your stream speed.

So you can combo 300 BPM streams, but can you do 1 - 3 - 1 - 3 - 3 - 2 - 2 - 4 note stacks at the same BPM? You're indirectly proving my point about tap/x when you seem to think streams are the only thing that matter.

And regarding that subject of DT:

YES DT is harder, I agree, it's safe to say that on some maps it's harder than the 1.12x multiplier it gives, especially concerning jumps. But when you are pro at map reading and every other aspect, the one thing that holds many players back is finger speed and stamina, it gets better very slowly. How can you measure absolute skill based on someone's physical fitness, when their brain is well equipped to play with Hard Rock, Hidden and Flashlight and read difficult patterns.

Anyway, I'm only attempting to justify the reason for the "less pp for DT," I'm not saying anything should be done about DT at all, if what Mesita says is pretty accurate, then it works fine, and there's nothing to worry about.
thelewa
Don't try to reason with Kyou-kun. He's a HD+DT player and he will go to any lengths to defend his own playstyle.
ReVeNg3r
Kyou-kun ,try SS this ttp://osu.ppy.sh/b/99254?m=0
then talk...and this is just the easier case
Tom69_old

lolcubes wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Let's assume there is a player getting SS with HD on a common OD, say 7 or 8.
The same player is playing this map with DT+HD now and achieves 96% accuracy.

But is this really a lower accuracy? If we take OD into account it might not be.
If we measure accuracy not relatively to OD, BUT in the absolute offset of each hit, actually 96% DT+HD can and often IS better than SS HD. In terms of absolute time, the player actually was more accurate.
Not to mention that one has to keep an even faster pace with the rythm.
Same goes with HR+HD.

Of course this isn't specificly the case for OD 9 or 10, but I rarely, rarely see OD 9 used on a map... and I never saw OD 10 on a map.

Another indicator for this is that commonly on maps which actually have HD+DT 96% scores in the toplist, there often are pretty much SS HD scores.


Not saying anyone is wrong or right, just pointing something out.
You yourself have a SS on OD10 though. ;) (hard rock on OD8 = OD10)

So in terms of absolute accuracy it is worth even more as HD SS, right?

Timeline
----------------------------------------------------->

[------------ Hit Window OD 8 ------------]
| <- hit
[---- Hit Window OD 10 ---]

So, while having more "accurate" hits you still have a lower percentage with higher ODs. That's what is the controverse thing that comes to MY mind when I hear someone compare the %-Accuracy of DT HD with HD only. (Or HD HR)

That's by the way the reason FlashLight appears so imbalanced to certain players. While it has the same score multiplier as DT it doesn't increase OD. So while having the same absolute accuracy in terms of hitting things you still have a higher percentage than with DT, thus a higher score.
YodaSnipe
^that's a nice timeline :D

I don't mean that in a rude way.

FL doesn't increase OD, it makes the range of vision harder. Idc about either, just making the point.
Gon
While FL doesn't increase OD, it certainly takes -much- more effort and time to achieve a decent score, especially on higher song lengths. I think it's a fair trade off imo.
ReVeNg3r
[-Hit Window OD11-]

dont start DT contra FL endless discussion..stay with topic
lolcubes

Tom94 wrote:

So in terms of absolute accuracy it is worth even more as HD SS, right?
Even more than HD SS, yeah, atleast I think so.
Ohrami

ReVeNg3r wrote:

Kyou-kun ,try SS this ttp://osu.ppy.sh/b/99254?m=0
then talk...and this is just the easier case

Literally one play.
Mara
Posting in a locked thread. Good job with making this thread go horribly off-topic.

I don't personally find anything wrong with ranking, got much higher rank than before.

Also, I am mouse only player.
bwross

bomber34 wrote:

I just wonder if the system also detects your play style, because mouse only is considered to be the hardest way to play.
Keyboard only is much harder. As is using a trackball, or playing mouse only with your feet (or even just your off hand). :)
YodaSnipe
SPOILER

Kyou-kun wrote:

ReVeNg3r wrote:

Kyou-kun ,try SS this ttp://osu.ppy.sh/b/99254?m=0
then talk...and this is just the easier case

Literally one play.

ReVeNg3r
I have nothing to say.
yoda;)
honestly ,how much retries it took?
Ohrami
It took zero retries. I played it once and SSed it. It's 130 BPM. That's a joke.
Salvage
Kyou-Kun so pro, why isn't she 1# yet omgggg SS big big yeah.



Now seriously, don't start the FL thing again, i barelly play FL and the score it gives is ok, specially cause EVERYONE who flames the mod can't play it at all,.


I would find it correct too, to make Hidden SS worth more than DT 96% or something like that, the same situation with DT HD is another thing and it also depends heavily on the map, and then you have DT 93% and less, that already worth less than HD SS but should worth even more less cause those scores are lammmmmmme.
ReVeNg3r
i will rather shut the fucking up :x
-Athena-
Well I think the reason why HD SS is worth more than DT HD 96% (assuming its that way)is only because of accuracy, yes the latter may be more impressive but if you have to sacrifice accuracy to do it then it's gonna be worth lesser, meaning don't do it unless you can maintain the same high accuracy that a rhythm game is suppose to be about
ReVeNg3r
then why was other mods added? then remove all ,let only Hidden and people can go fuck themselves
Tanzklaue

-A t H e N a- wrote:

Well I think the reason why HD SS is worth more than DT HD 96% (assuming its that way)is only because of accuracy, yes the latter may be more impressive but if you have to sacrifice accuracy to do it then it's gonna be worth lesser, meaning don't do it unless you can maintain the same high accuracy that a rhythm game is suppose to be about
problem is: this system claims to be an accurate skillranking. and DT HD 96% takes more skill than HD SS.
peppy
This thread has expired its useful lifespan (there are already other threads arguing the relative difficulty of mods, and it is completely irrelevant in this case), so I am going to lock it for now. Keep an eye out for an official announcement in the near future, and follow the wiki page for up-to-date public details on the calculation method.
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