1. osu! forums
  2. Beatmaps
  3. Ranked/Approved Beatmaps
show more
posted
quit w with the offset being 40ms too late
or do i have the wrong audio?
posted
.
posted
Writing this to clarify my intentions about 00:30:285 - and 02:04:365 - (plus to make sure no drama or related stuff happen)

So, as I already explained to DDMythical in-game, my first patterns were constant [12][34] through the whole section.
But to make it a bit more challenging while having high consistency, I made it like 3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1-3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1... and so on
like bubbled version below.



However, yes I knew some people would feel a bit disappointed by those density spikes.
So after some talks with DDM, I tried to make patterns as he suggested that is based on [2][3][2][3] trills while having density increase, like below. (And he agreed with the fact that given example of posted version was a bit too easy)



(sorry if I didn't get it right @DDM)

Taking "Japanese Transformation" as an example, I would say using [2][34][2][34] or [12][34][12][34] style of layering could work perfectly fine with other parts of the music since the patterns are constantly dense over the whole map. However due to the nature of this song, we actually have the musically rising, or maybe we could say it as 'spiky' sections.

So what I thought about this was, we should focus more on the difficulty curve, not the density itself. Some might say version 2 patterns have a bit more reasonable density curve and I partially agree with that. Comparing with version 1 patterns, by making this part a bit less constant we can make the smoother density curve, and of course, I once have thought this might be a solution before. I would've made this part's pattern more fun if this wasn't going for ranked, however, the difficulty for that part is similar or some said it's even a lot harder than version 1, which is not the essential solution. (got those opinions by testplays) So I ended up with making a bit nerfed version of version 1 patterns here, like below.




I know somewhat jumptrilly patterns of version 3 are less fun than patterns like version 2. However for me, it seems more reasonable since the difficulty isn't that far from sections through 00:28:125 - to 00:30:285 - , which is musically a bit more correct in my sight.


So this is how far I thought about this section. I would say I might change patterns to version 3 before this map gets heart icon, but since version 1 patterns are the polished patterns by juankristal (and maybe with Pope Gadget too) during the semi-final mappool selection of 2017MWC4K, which could still work fine for my sight. Please let me know if anyone has a better solution for this. I'll check it thoroughly so don't worry. :oops:
posted

Dreamwalker wrote:

Writing this to clarify my intentions about 00:30:285 - and 02:04:365 - (plus to make sure no drama or related stuff happen)

So, as I already explained to DDMythical in-game, my first patterns were constant [12][34] through the whole section.
But to make it a bit more challenging while having high consistency, I made it like 3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1-3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1... and so on
like bubbled version below.



However, yes I knew some people would feel a bit disappointed by those density spikes.
So after some talks with DDM, I tried to make patterns as he suggested that is based on [2][3][2][3] trills while having density increase, like below. (And he agreed with the fact that given example of posted version was a bit too easy)



(sorry if I didn't get it right @DDM)

Taking "Japanese Transformation" as an example, I would say using [2][34][2][34] or [12][34][12][34] style of layering could work perfectly fine with other parts of the music since the patterns are constantly dense over the whole map. However due to the nature of this song, we actually have the musically rising, or maybe we could say it as 'spiky' sections.

So what I thought about this was, we should focus more on the difficulty curve, not the density itself. Some might say version 2 patterns have a bit more reasonable density curve and I partially agree with that. Comparing with version 1 patterns, by making this part a bit less constant we can make the smoother density curve, and of course, I once have thought this might be a solution before. I would've made this part's pattern more fun if this wasn't going for ranked, however, the difficulty for that part is similar or some said it's even a lot harder than version 1, which is not the essential solution. (got those opinions by testplays) So I ended up with making a bit nerfed version of version 1 patterns here, like below.




I know somewhat jumptrilly patterns of version 3 are less fun than patterns like version 2. However for me, it seems more reasonable since the difficulty isn't that far from sections through 00:28:125 - to 00:30:285 - , which is musically a bit more correct in my sight.


So this is how far I thought about this section. I would say I might change patterns to version 3 before this map gets heart icon, but since version 1 patterns are the polished patterns by juankristal (and maybe with Pope Gadget too) during the semi-final mappool selection of 2017MWC4K, which could still work fine for my sight. Please let me know if anyone has a better solution for this. I'll check it thoroughly so don't worry. :oops:
UWU this is the good stuff
posted
패턴은 개인차에 따라 다르겠지만 제 기준으로는 전혀 건드릴 필요없다고 생각하네요
그래서 약간 걸리는 점과 실수로 보이는 부분만을 적었습니다

[Normal]
02:31:245 - 롱놋 길이가 의도 된지는 모르나 실수로 판단되네요.
의도하던 사운드는 02:31:965 - 여기서부터 시작하며 동일한 파트로는 아래 00:57:885 (57885|2) - 이거와 비교하시면 될 듯 해요.
다른 난이도와 비교해서도 참고 할 수 있습니다.

[Lastopia's Advanced]
-

[Standard]
00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 - 저는 여기가 꽤 위험하다고 생각하는 부분이에요.
게스트 난이도이기 이전에 이전 난이도(Advanced)에서는 1/1을 유지했고 여기서는 파격적으로 1/4의 리듬으로 건너 뛰어졌기 때문에
여기서 갭을 좀 낮출 필요가 있다고 생각합니다(디퀄 사유의 예 : 난이도간 급격한 밀도 변화) 혹시 모르니 피드백
00:24:525 - 여기부터는 괜찮다고 생각하므로 변경 하실 필요가 없습니다
(Must가 아니라 제 기준에서는 Should 이기 때문에 선택은 자유, 고민 되시면 추가적으로 논의 해볼 수 있으니 아무데나 피엠 주세욥)

01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 위와 동일.

[Fontes' Insane]
-

[Emotional Drift]
-
구성 되게 잘하셨습니다 8-)
4키에서 원기의 트리거 이후로 정말 오랜만에 독보적인 맵을 봤네요! 굿
posted

Kawawa wrote:

패턴은 개인차에 따라 다르겠지만 제 기준으로는 전혀 건드릴 필요없다고 생각하네요
그래서 약간 걸리는 점과 실수로 보이는 부분만을 적었습니다

[Normal]
02:31:245 - 롱놋 길이가 의도 된지는 모르나 실수로 판단되네요.
의도하던 사운드는 02:31:965 - 여기서부터 시작하며 동일한 파트로는 아래 00:57:885 (57885|2) - 이거와 비교하시면 될 듯 해요.
다른 난이도와 비교해서도 참고 할 수 있습니다.

수정했습니다

[Lastopia's Advanced]
-

[Standard]
00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 - 저는 여기가 꽤 위험하다고 생각하는 부분이에요.
게스트 난이도이기 이전에 이전 난이도(Advanced)에서는 1/1을 유지했고 여기서는 파격적으로 1/4의 리듬으로 건너 뛰어졌기 때문에
여기서 갭을 좀 낮출 필요가 있다고 생각합니다(디퀄 사유의 예 : 난이도간 급격한 밀도 변화) 혹시 모르니 피드백
00:24:525 - 여기부터는 괜찮다고 생각하므로 변경 하실 필요가 없습니다
(Must가 아니라 제 기준에서는 Should 이기 때문에 선택은 자유, 고민 되시면 추가적으로 논의 해볼 수 있으니 아무데나 피엠 주세욥)

01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 위와 동일.

00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 - 는 나름대로 고쳤고 01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 는 안고치기로 했습니다.
의도적이지는 않았지만 다른 난이도에서는 01:35:565 - 부터 이어져오던 메인 멜로디가 fade out 되는부분을 무시했기에 여기서는 살려보고싶었네요.
바로 이전 파트와 비교했을때도 플로우도 더 자연스러운거같아서 냅뒀습니다.

힛사를 00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 -에서는 2놋-1놋-2놋-1놋 구간에서 1놋에도 스네어음 줬는데 01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 에서는 표현 요소가 멜로디라서 힛사 2놋 제외하고는 뺐습니다

[Fontes' Insane]
-

[Emotional Drift]
-
구성 되게 잘하셨습니다 8-)
4키에서 원기의 트리거 이후로 정말 오랜만에 독보적인 맵을 봤네요! 굿
감사합니다 :)
posted
Gratz!!
posted
Thanks for all your support!!
posted
Hello, Congrats for Qualify, but i think there's issue that needs to be adressed first here.

it's regarding LR_cymbalG which have around 5ms delay here: http://puu.sh/Aq166/2bfedd0203.png (truthfully, despite the different name, i think this has the same hitsound as the one at t/343963/start=90 ), you need to fix that first i think. Use http://puu.sh/Aq22H/51f46b2382.wav

And the hitnormal is kinda too quiet , try using the one i amplify here: http://puu.sh/Aq1T4/b042ef6eda.wav

Regardless, really nice map though, good luck!
posted
What Maxus said, essentially.

LR_CymbalG.wav has been known to cause a couple of issues regarding delays in the past, so that needs to be replaced.

Regarding the hitnormal, I'd strongly suggest using Maxus' replacement as well, since all notes do need some sort of audible feedback to the player. Otherwise, there is quite a large number of notes that essentially have no feedback at all.

There's also 02:05:325 (125325|1,125325|2,125385|0) in Fontes' diff where the hitsounds got a little muddled so you might want to fix that.
(Besides that you might want to check the use of storyboarded hitsounds in the lower difficulties because they can distract players if, for example, they miss and a sample they'd be used to hearing plays anyway.)

Let me know once the files have been replaced so I can double check stuff and get this back up and running again.
posted
Thanks for checking Maxus and Asherz!
I'll fix it in a few hours :)



edit : fixed now :)
posted
wub wub

Hitsound samples have been replaced + minor fix, so good to go again it seems.
posted
Emotional Drift
02:28:845 (148845|1,149085|2) - 00:54:765 (54765|1,55005|1) - what's with these svs being 0.8x normalized

00:33:885 (33885|0,34125|0) - and why is this 0.7x

E: Sorry forgot to comment on why they should be fixed:
They look odd and stands out like an error instead of it being mapped to a special sound since literally every other SV is 1.0 normalized, and the sound here doesn't really feel like it justifies the usage

I would comment on the other SVs being not fitting to the instrumentals used but I'll be doing that in 5 days time (weekends) so I'll preferably not obstruct your ranking process if you're keen to rank it
posted

Evening wrote:

Emotional Drift
02:28:845 (148845|1,149085|2) - 00:54:765 (54765|1,55005|1) - what's with these svs being 0.8x normalized

00:33:885 (33885|0,34125|0) - and why is this 0.7x

E: Sorry forgot to comment on why they should be fixed:
They look odd and stands out like an error instead of it being mapped to a special sound since literally every other SV is 1.0 normalized, and the sound here doesn't really feel like it justifies the usage

I would comment on the other SVs being not fitting to the instrumentals used but I'll be doing that in 5 days time (weekends) so I'll preferably not obstruct your ranking process if you're keen to rank it
From the day we talked in-game, I was thinking about your concern is a necessary thing to fix, or at least gives some changes in gameplay.
Sorry to say this but I eventually decided to reject your suggestion.
I saw replays and got some testplays from people and asked them about it, and found out those SVs doesn't affect gameplay much since people got max300 for the next notes. So I concluded that these SVs are not the forced ones to memorize timing of pressing keys while playing.

Also, I would say there still are some reasons for justifying its usage. Reason would be,
00:33:885 - this is the part where kiai section is starting, so giving a bit slower values could emphasize 00:34:125 - this sound. Also, it still feels like the extension of slowjams 00:32:235 - to 00:33:525 - , while separating drum section 00:33:525 - to 00:33:885 - by normalizing it to 1.0x, while giving similar effects of other drum sounds.
00:54:765 - although here and 01:02:445 - has the same sounds, this 0.8x and 1.0x difference between normalized values could help discriminate sounds between 00:55:005 - and 01:02:685 -
Also for these two parts, the time gap is quite big, so it'll be more about sightreading rather than pressing buttons by the distance between notes.

This map's SVs may not be satisfying your standard, but since I didn't make this map to be an SV map, I'll just keep it if changing values does not make many differences.
Thank you for giving your concerns to this map.
posted
Hello! Apologies about the last day disqualification as we have taken a day or two to mull this over before coming to our decision.

On behalf of the mania QAT, we are taking this map down because it forces patterns and concepts inappropriate for the song's relative difficulty which makes it unrealistically reflect the contents and nature of the song. I do not wish to throw the word "dump" around freely as I believe it tends to be taken as an insult to the mapper(s), but this is what this chart is, and I do not mean it in a rude way.

Previously, we have allowed semi-dumps to be ranked before and they have been widely regarded as some of the best maps mania has currently ranked. This though, goes beyond that, and goes from being challenging gimmicks and unique interpretations of a song through a chart to forced difficulty for the sake of making a hard map out of a relatively tranquil song. We believe it no longer reflects the song properly, and instead is inserting difficulty in awkward places which feels forced and unnatural.

Some examples of this from the top difficulty are as follows:
00:09:165 - to 00:11:085 - While not nearly as hard as other areas of the chart, we believe the majority of these to be ghost notes as they are played over indistinct sounds continuing from 00:08:565 - which are currently unacceptable unless for the sake of preserving flow, which in this case it is not believed to have this effect.
00:21:765 (21765|0,22245|3) - Similarly.
02:04:365 - ^

00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440

00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.

00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.


These are the main reasons why we are taking the map down. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask either me, Feerum, or Asherz007 for help. Most likely, I will be making a larger post later with more specifics of the issues we have so rest assured, these are not the only solutions available to you.
posted

Protastic101 wrote:

Hello! Apologies about the last day disqualification as we have taken a day or two to mull this over before coming to our decision.

On behalf of the mania QAT, we are taking this map down because it forces patterns and concepts inappropriate for the song's relative difficulty which makes it unrealistically reflect the contents and nature of the song. I do not wish to throw the word "dump" around freely as I believe it tends to be taken as an insult to the mapper(s), but this is what this chart is, and I do not mean it in a rude way.

Previously, we have allowed semi-dumps to be ranked before and they have been widely regarded as some of the best maps mania has currently ranked. This though, goes beyond that, and goes from being challenging gimmicks and unique interpretations of a song through a chart to forced difficulty for the sake of making a hard map out of a relatively tranquil song. We believe it no longer reflects the song properly, and instead is inserting difficulty in awkward places which feels forced and unnatural.

Some examples of this from the top difficulty are as follows:
00:09:165 - to 00:11:085 - While not nearly as hard as other areas of the chart, we believe the majority of these to be ghost notes as they are played over indistinct sounds continuing from 00:08:565 - which are currently unacceptable unless for the sake of preserving flow, which in this case it is not believed to have this effect.
00:21:765 (21765|0,22245|3) - Similarly.
02:04:365 - ^

00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440

00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.

00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.


These are the main reasons why we are taking the map down. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask either me, Feerum, or Asherz007 for help. Most likely, I will be making a larger post later with more specifics of the issues we have so rest assured, these are not the only solutions available to you.
Thanks again for leaving concerns about this map!

The point of our discussion is how much QAT including you can agree with 'dump' stuffs, and I'm already certain about keeping most parts. So I thought it would be better to start from the beginnings of your post. I had never thought saying this map as a dump was rude. However, I strongly disagree with this chart being unnatural or being forced. Since most of the parts' rolly 250bpm stream patterns are meant to be 'light' for skilled players who can handle the sections around 30s (which we discussed mostly) while having some diversity of patterning that gives similar (not the same) feelings. The point here is, everyone can feel and interpret their feelings in their own way. You said this song is rather quiet and tranquil than being extreme, however, I got the feeling of the sounds itself being quite intense, even by comparing with other songs too. (Although I agree overall flow itself has some calm sections that are a contrast of what I have expressed through this map.)

For the first points that you suggested is, well as we discussed I disagree but that does not affect much of this map's gameplay, so I somewhat have the desire to change patterns if there are good solutions for that. However, your screenshot was not that satisfying cuz even for a former section I used 2 LNs in col 3,4 which is placed each 1/2 lines but the one you gave me was only 1/1. If anyone can think of a better solution for that part I would appreciate it and fix it. But please keep in mind all modders and GDers, BNs and also I agreed with expressing those indistinct sounds with simple single note 1/4 rolly streams, although your opinions still have the highest priority. And for those weak snare drum sounds, I gave you people's compromised opinion but if you still disagree, I don't mind changing it cuz it really doesn't matter much.

For the next part that you said there are a bit of SR boosts, please keep in mind I also made enough discussions with people while struggling to find the patterns which can actually fit most with the sounds. Again, the main reason would be three. 1) consistency through that short section 2) musical rise that notes (and difficulty of playing) should represent the intense feelings 3) technicality. As we somewhat made a good point to scramble up notes to be bit harder, I won't make many comments about this. I will increase HP value (since you said you could pass this map by mashing keys), maybe between 8.8 to 9.0, since I thought 9.2 could be a bit too much to have wider player range. I'll try to move only about few notes from the second section(02:04:365 - ) to make it have higher difficulty than the first secction(00:30:285 - ) that can change its difficulty. (Some people might pass the first part but eventually fails on the second section.) Yet I'm worried about this section being too much hard for making it to more harder.

Your third opinion, wasn't that satisfying one. What I've tried to express here is, to make it easier than the section before kiai while having denser jacking parts by combination of two styles. Giving each part breaks by making half to be easy LNs with a bit of expressive SVs, I combined it with hard parts. By this, players who have abilities to bearly play constantly dense 125bpm jacks can still play lightly by concentrating on hard parts while resting (both concentration & their hands) on easier sections. Also I tried to express those stuttering sounds by using LNs rather than using 250bpm streams since the sound is similar with other parts that are expressed by dumps. Thus it's not a good idea to decrease density and the difficulty of this chart's kiai if you consider the former parts, especially for the densest 250bpm streams around 30s. These patterns are, of course, not the usual ways to express the sounds that people made, but since this chart is somewhat experimental in a way that can widen ways of music interpretation, I think it's not bad to give it a shot.

The last concern was, for me, the most confusing one, since I had to reconsider structures of all parts. So there are three problems for changing patterns as you suggested, 1) having way less difference between Fontes' Insane 2) difficulty differences between the sections that I actually can express sounds with streams in your sight (ex. 00:47:565 - ) which has slightly stronger growls or with pitch. 3) this part is the main concept of this map. You see, those stream sections without LNs and with LNs have huge gap of its visuals, difficulty, and the feelings that a player can get through both sections. While sections with LNs have simpler patterns yet being harder to play (which focuses on pitch expression more), those without LNs have a higher diversity of patterns with easier difficulties. The point is, those easier sections are good enough to express lighter sounds that can be played as rolling fingers without being too far from the sounds. So to conclude, I focused less on how much sounds are growling, I focused on making some distinction between stream sections that which sound could be mapped and which part should be harder, while having a decent level of difficulty consistency.

Again, thanks for taking your time checking this map, and please let me make further discussions by in-game chat if there are more things that should be justified.
posted
Epic
posted
In defense of the mapper, I'd like to rebut certain points for this mod and why this mod isn't good for the mapper. I personally don't want to defend ranking criteria, I just want to defend the map.

I understand that Dreamwalker has already read it and addressed it but I think it's food for thought for everyone else

I would take the motive for not ranking the map as to say that is it not rankable and not because it's a bad map
--
#1
00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440
This is akin to blindly referencing, what's with 125 BPM and 1/8, what's wrong with the numbers and when is it considered fine, where are your references to the other points in the map?

Why is boosting SR by 0.2* a necessary point and why 60 ms, what is the mapper supposed to do with those numbers?

Your current suggestion, is honestly not bad, but it removes certain characteristics from the map itself:

1. 00:30:465 (30465|0,30465|1,30525|2,30525|3,30585|1,30585|0,30645|3,30645|2) - You removed the jumptrill element, in which I felt was an interesting touch to when I was playing it.
2. 00:30:585 (30585|1,30585|0,30705|1,30765|0,30825|1,30885|0,31005|0,31005|1) - The transitions, are alright, it at least has a decent structure and good splitting of what you're supposed to play in that particular time frame.

3. The new pattern feels uninspired and cookie-cutter
My interpretation of Dreamwalker's pattern: https://puu.sh/Av3fb/1d77e0f11c.bmp
My interpretation of Protastic's pattern: https://puu.sh/Av3iU/e079f414e1.bmp

Dreamwalker's presentation of the patterns are neat and tidy, every note serves a particular purpose of either supporting a chord, jumptrill, or representing a one hand trill. The newer pattern, though easier, has the idea of coercing players to just roll right and everything will be fine, that's simplistic and honestly just boring when compared to Dreamwalker's presentation.

--
#2
00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.
I don't get how is interpreting a song like that inappropriate, it's obvious that the mapper wanted to emphasize on the jacks and not the LNs.
While I do understand where you're coming from, it's vague and a shot in a dark to try to push "how you interpret music" as an argument that a map isn't representing it correctly. I thought it was an interesting concept and I have no idea how is that an issue when playing.

"A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play."

The jump in density is intentional, it fits the music, it is supposed to be challenging, and possibly awkward

--
#3
00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.
This is where it becomes clearly dumping and I'm not going to comment too much on it.

Dreamwalker, if you're going to preserve this as an interesting map, don't bother with ranking, they haven't figured out how to rank a dump. Making it "technically correct" will drive this map into mediocrity and it wouldn't even hold up against factory made maps. Even if you don't care about it too much anymore, don't make it worse

--
summary:
I'm going to sound rude but, Dreamwalker, rank something else, it will not be a good map if you just fixed everything.

--
footnote:
I personally have other issues with this map but I think i'll not comment on it until next time when i'm not busy

PS:
02:05:025 (125025|0,125025|1,125145|1,125145|0,125265|1,125325|0,125385|1,125505|0,125505|1,125625|1,125625|0) - this is too hard to play

E: grammar
posted
.
posted
Ok, apologies about the delay, had some irl stuff pop up after Monday.

After reading dreamwalker, evening, and dd's responses, I realize I may have taken too brash an approach to this map, but I think there are still some acceptable compromises we can come to.

00:09:165 - The suggestion I made here originally wasn't ideal, but listening more closely, the starts and ends of these sounds appear roughly to be like so: with the highlighted note being added as a bridge between the 1/4 to avoid an awkward jump in the rhythm. I think this would be better as it's not full 1/4 yet which feels like an awkward transition coming from 1/2 and 1/1 LNs before, while still introducing light 1/4 usage to foreshadow the streams at 00:16:845 -

00:20:685 - I'm ok with this being as is since it doesn't really make a difference as you said, and I'm sure we've both exhausted our reasoning by now.

00:30:285 - As for this, I'm fine with the compromise we reached in IRC. Raising the HP up to ~9.0 punishes jumptrilling this burst as opposed to the current HP where Im currently able to scrape by with ~92% acc and still more than half HP remaining. You could also try varying the jumptrill to be more than just [12][34], but I think raising the HP is enough by itself.

Protastic101 - Today at 12:02 AM
Alrighty, so
With the LN + 1/8 bursts at places such as 00:51:405 - 00:59:085 - 02:25:485 - 02:33:165 - , I feel like having the 1/8 + the LN is a bit redundant, as Im sure the 1/8 already covers for the synth here. I know there's still that same bass synth that you hear at places like 00:49:485 - , but I think in this case it'd be better to focus on the 3/4 synth as opposed to both which becomes slightly difficult to intuitively grasp the rhythm imo. What you could do is remove the LNs and keep the 1/8, but put 1/4 breaks in between to represent the cut off of the synth. Smth like this

It also discourages mashing in this case because simply mashing will hit the 1/4 pauses too early and cause it to be a 200 or worse when played
This would only apply for the synths that have little pauses between them like the ones timestamped above. Ones with mostly connected sounds like 00:55:245 - could remain the same, or you could just shorten the LNs and end the 1/8 burst in each half 1/4 early to get the same idea across like this

Dreamwalker - Today at 1:59 AM
So I should tell you your first example is way more just simply mash-able than what it is now
Dreamwalker - Today at 2:01 AM
problem would be (1) not being technical (2) not representing the pitch which i intended (3) it is harder to ready the 1/4 gaps between notes comparing with my version which is constant 1/8s (4) players feeling through the section will be way much similar with the only 1/8s sections
I know the sounds are ending about 1/8 earlier, but I "intentionally made it a bit longer to end at 1/2s for better playability", which is the difference between your second screenshot.(edited)
So 'How does this section played'
First, for my patterns, comparing with no-LN section, it let us 'intuitively' grasp the difference of what I tried to express, the changes of pitch which is expressed with LNs.
And about mashing, it's 'intentionally' made like that, which by giving LNs it has 4/3 density for other 3 columns than non-LN sections, which means it's like "1.3x" version.
If a person can clear 1.0x with an border S, that person will struggle with 1.3x and probably get a B or maybe they could even fail, which means it needs way more techniques and skills to play it.
However since I made it with 'less variety' of patterns, which is like only rolling to left or right, it lowers the level of the chart, yet having technical aspects.
--
But what happens when i change patterns that you give is,
Patterns will be way less technical, even comparing with the normal 1/8 sections.
Also it'll cause meshing, which means it's hard to deal with the gaps between those 1/8s and '1/4 gaps'.
(which will be played as 1/8 for no spacing, and "1/6s" for the section which has 1/4 gap in it)
Also another problem is this does NOT let players 'intuitively' grasp the rhythm, which will be just feeling like 1/8s and 1/6s randomly placed polyrhythmic section that is awkward to play.
--
So you may ask, what's the 'reason for differenciating LN section and non-LN section'?
Reason for me is that gives way much variation while playing yet giving diverse music interpretation with high consistency and techniques.
And if not, it'll be just a boring 1/8 dump chart, which people won't be playing.
--
Please keep in mind I won't be ranking this map if I should still change this section.
This might come to you as being rude, but reason for my opinions being strongest for this section is 'this part is already well-made and represents what I intended', which is already proven by more than a hundread people I've asked for testplays.
Also without considering SR, which this map is definitely not made for PP, mashing keys for technical part is one of the aspect that I can gather more players while making players to have technical skills for better scores, since 250bpm streams are not dense enough to just simply mash it and get good acc.
Dreamwalker - Today at 10:15 AM
Good morning prot :sleeping:
Is it um okay to have some discussions that should be solved for qualify?
Now it's over 12 here so if you have time :thinking:

Protastic101 - Today at 10:19 AM
yeah sorry, I just got up like 20 minutes ago
ok so let me read through everything real fast
Fair points i guess. I disagree but it just boils down to personal opinion at this point
What about keeping the LNs and 1/8, but shortening the LNs to have small breaks in them to represent the pauses in the synth?


Easier to hit imo if each LN is one consistent length as opposed to something that varies in a kind of difficult to follow way
Also reduces a 1/8 shield which is the only point where this occurs I believe

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:27 AM
I think you didn't get my point
For me, there are two things that should be considered while making a ranked map
Visuals / how it is played
So of course, some maps could use 'triggering players' to read notes which could be about SVs or about note itself.
But in that case those patterns will just make it hard to read
It might be giving a break to represent the synth however
it feels like notes are just spreaded without having proper structure
which means, as i already made the point "by giving LNs it has 4/3 density...", it should have easier patters for reading and also playing
and actually it's not easier to play, which contradicts to your idea

Protastic101 - Today at 10:35 AM
Ok, i gotta eat and get ready for work, but ill ask fee and ash about this too, and if they dont have anything to comment on, we can get it renominated again

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
okay thanks and i think we need to make a good solution for the first part around 10s

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
If you could respond to what I posted in the thread, that'd be great as well

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
before 2 bn checks

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
ye

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
okay i'll try

Protastic101 - Today at 10:36 AM
sorry, i just dont have much time rn before work

Dreamwalker - Today at 10:36 AM
don't worry it's all good for me
making ranked map a bit faster doesn't mean much

Protastic101 - Today at 8:54 PM
Hm, fee has some stuff he wants to mention as well, so we'll wait until then. It'll probs be another day or so
Ok but going back to what you said about how the notes are spread without a proper structure
I believe they still keep that structure though as the direction of the 1/8 bursts remains the same (all either going left or right)
It takes away the 1/8 shields you had, but I think that's better tbh cuz the release on shields is still a very tight timing window that most will get a 200 on regardless of what they do

Dreamwalker - Today at 8:57 PM
So you mean only one direction through one dumpy section?

Protastic101 - Today at 8:59 PM
You had mentioned earlier that the LNs + 1/8 was fine not because of any technical aspect, but because it was more like an acc check on the player to make sure they were actually able to play the map, which is why they only roll in one direction each time right?
So I'm just saying that you can keep the direction of the burst the same while reducing the length of the LNs to a consistent snap, like 1/2
or you can even make it 7/8 long if you really wanted tbh

Dreamwalker - Today at 9:00 PM
Uhhh
Seems we need some group discussions with people about that

Protastic101 - Today at 9:01 PM
yeah
I guess Ill wait for feru and see what he has to say
show more
Please sign in to reply.