Dreamwalker wrote:

Writing this to clarify my intentions about 00:30:285 - and 02:04:365 - (plus to make sure no drama or related stuff happen)

So, as I already explained to DDMythical in-game, my first patterns were constant [12][34] through the whole section.
But to make it a bit more challenging while having high consistency, I made it like 3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1-3-1-2-2-2-2-2-1... and so on
like bubbled version below.

Version 1

However, yes I knew some people would feel a bit disappointed by those density spikes.
So after some talks with DDM, I tried to make patterns as he suggested that is based on [2][3][2][3] trills while having density increase, like below. (And he agreed with the fact that given example of posted version was a bit too easy)

Version 2

(sorry if I didn't get it right @DDM)

Taking "Japanese Transformation" as an example, I would say using [2][34][2][34] or [12][34][12][34] style of layering could work perfectly fine with other parts of the music since the patterns are constantly dense over the whole map. However due to the nature of this song, we actually have the musically rising, or maybe we could say it as 'spiky' sections.

So what I thought about this was, we should focus more on the difficulty curve, not the density itself. Some might say version 2 patterns have a bit more reasonable density curve and I partially agree with that. Comparing with version 1 patterns, by making this part a bit less constant we can make the smoother density curve, and of course, I once have thought this might be a solution before. I would've made this part's pattern more fun if this wasn't going for ranked, however, the difficulty for that part is similar or some said it's even a lot harder than version 1, which is not the essential solution. (got those opinions by testplays) So I ended up with making a bit nerfed version of version 1 patterns here, like below.

Version 3

I know somewhat jumptrilly patterns of version 3 are less fun than patterns like version 2. However for me, it seems more reasonable since the difficulty isn't that far from sections through 00:28:125 - to 00:30:285 - , which is musically a bit more correct in my sight.


So this is how far I thought about this section. I would say I might change patterns to version 3 before this map gets heart icon, but since version 1 patterns are the polished patterns by juankristal (and maybe with Pope Gadget too) during the semi-final mappool selection of 2017MWC4K, which could still work fine for my sight. Please let me know if anyone has a better solution for this. I'll check it thoroughly so don't worry.

Kawawa wrote:

패턴은 개인차에 따라 다르겠지만 제 기준으로는 전혀 건드릴 필요없다고 생각하네요
그래서 약간 걸리는 점과 실수로 보이는 부분만을 적었습니다

[Normal]
02:31:245 - 롱놋 길이가 의도 된지는 모르나 실수로 판단되네요.
의도하던 사운드는 02:31:965 - 여기서부터 시작하며 동일한 파트로는 아래 00:57:885 (57885|2) - 이거와 비교하시면 될 듯 해요.
다른 난이도와 비교해서도 참고 할 수 있습니다.

수정했습니다

[Lastopia's Advanced]
-

[Standard]
00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 - 저는 여기가 꽤 위험하다고 생각하는 부분이에요.
게스트 난이도이기 이전에 이전 난이도(Advanced)에서는 1/1을 유지했고 여기서는 파격적으로 1/4의 리듬으로 건너 뛰어졌기 때문에
여기서 갭을 좀 낮출 필요가 있다고 생각합니다(디퀄 사유의 예 : 난이도간 급격한 밀도 변화) 혹시 모르니 피드백
00:24:525 - 여기부터는 괜찮다고 생각하므로 변경 하실 필요가 없습니다
(Must가 아니라 제 기준에서는 Should 이기 때문에 선택은 자유, 고민 되시면 추가적으로 논의 해볼 수 있으니 아무데나 피엠 주세욥)

01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 위와 동일.

00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 - 는 나름대로 고쳤고 01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 는 안고치기로 했습니다.
의도적이지는 않았지만 다른 난이도에서는 01:35:565 - 부터 이어져오던 메인 멜로디가 fade out 되는부분을 무시했기에 여기서는 살려보고싶었네요.
바로 이전 파트와 비교했을때도 플로우도 더 자연스러운거같아서 냅뒀습니다.

힛사를 00:16:845 - ~ 00:24:525 -에서는 2놋-1놋-2놋-1놋 구간에서 1놋에도 스네어음 줬는데 01:50:925 - ~ 01:58:605 - 에서는 표현 요소가 멜로디라서 힛사 2놋 제외하고는 뺐습니다

[Fontes' Insane]
-

[Emotional Drift]
-

구성 되게 잘하셨습니다
4키에서 원기의 트리거 이후로 정말 오랜만에 독보적인 맵을 봤네요! 굿

Evening wrote:

Emotional Drift
02:28:845 (148845|1,149085|2) - 00:54:765 (54765|1,55005|1) - what's with these svs being 0.8x normalized

00:33:885 (33885|0,34125|0) - and why is this 0.7x

E: Sorry forgot to comment on why they should be fixed:
They look odd and stands out like an error instead of it being mapped to a special sound since literally every other SV is 1.0 normalized, and the sound here doesn't really feel like it justifies the usage

I would comment on the other SVs being not fitting to the instrumentals used but I'll be doing that in 5 days time (weekends) so I'll preferably not obstruct your ranking process if you're keen to rank it

Protastic101 wrote:

Hello! Apologies about the last day disqualification as we have taken a day or two to mull this over before coming to our decision.

On behalf of the mania QAT, we are taking this map down because it forces patterns and concepts inappropriate for the song's relative difficulty which makes it unrealistically reflect the contents and nature of the song. I do not wish to throw the word "dump" around freely as I believe it tends to be taken as an insult to the mapper(s), but this is what this chart is, and I do not mean it in a rude way.

Previously, we have allowed semi-dumps to be ranked before and they have been widely regarded as some of the best maps mania has currently ranked. This though, goes beyond that, and goes from being challenging gimmicks and unique interpretations of a song through a chart to forced difficulty for the sake of making a hard map out of a relatively tranquil song. We believe it no longer reflects the song properly, and instead is inserting difficulty in awkward places which feels forced and unnatural.

Some examples of this from the top difficulty are as follows:
00:09:165 - to 00:11:085 - While not nearly as hard as other areas of the chart, we believe the majority of these to be ghost notes as they are played over indistinct sounds continuing from 00:08:565 - which are currently unacceptable unless for the sake of preserving flow, which in this case it is not believed to have this effect.
00:21:765 (21765|0,22245|3) - Similarly.
02:04:365 - ^

00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440

00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.

00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.


These are the main reasons why we are taking the map down. If you have any questions, please feel free to ask either me, Feerum, or Asherz007 for help. Most likely, I will be making a larger post later with more specifics of the issues we have so rest assured, these are not the only solutions available to you.

00:30:285 - As the song is 125 BPM, 1/8 streams and even jumpstreams can be considered fine for short periods of time due to the slow bpm, but we need to keep in mind that this is essentially a 250 BPM 1/4 dense handstream which leaves only 60 ms for players to read and properly hit notes. This alone boosts SR by 0.20* and is an unnecessary spike. A cleaner handstream with 1/4 jumps would be more closely centered to the general difficulty of the chart. A suggestion could be like so https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/11048440

00:34:125 - Accents at consistent intervals for sounds that do not change in volume or emphasis. The first half of each phrase (from 00:36:045 - to 00:37:005 - ) have a much lower note density, whereas the second half of the measure (from 00:37:005 - to 00:37:965 - ) have a large jump in density despite the fact that the song has clearer instruments that are more isolated and lighter in sound. A possible solution to this would be to reduce the chord sizes in the second half of each measure in order to reduce the jump in note density as we do understand that keeping a similar density would make the map truly awkward with the long notes to play.

00:39:885 - 00:49:485 - 00:51:405 - 00:53:325 - and so on. Yes, there have been other maps where we have allowed 1/8 bursts for bass growls, but they were not as smooth or clean as the sounds here. There is such a negligible amount of vibration or change within each of these synths to warrant these bursts that they are notes for non-existent alterations in the music. Especially combined with long notes which already do an excellent job of representing the long sounds and the SVs which accentuate the more hectic nature of this ending section, these notes almost become redundant. A proposed solution would be to use long notes for the 1/8 bursts instead, and use stronger SV stutters to represent the very slight variations in sound.

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.

Unpredictable wrote:

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.

Tofu1222 wrote:

Really hope to see this map back to ranked. I think it's quite fit for ranked section.

riunosk wrote:

emotional drift

00:40:365 - tbh i'd prefer if the stream pattern was continued here (same goes for the others, if any)

Nope. For different emphasis between kiai 1 and 2, as you already know.

01:36:165 - why not add note at col 3 for the sound

I followed pitch with strong sounds that are noticable with 100% speed.

01:36:525 (96525|2) - i think it's better to follow the sound only rather than vocal

It's not for vocal, definitely.

01:44:205 (104205|3,104445|1,104685|1) - i'm not really sure what these are following

Same with above, pitch, but with a bit of hand balance.

02:14:505 - hey you did continue the stream here

yes

yeah this is definitely rank material

some might not think that way, i'm just trying to respect their opinions
thanks for stoping by

eyes wrote:

Fontes

02:32:205 - 02:24:525 - shouldn't here be some Kick hitsound for snare emphasize? example: 02:28:365 - same for last diff, didn't check others

This was intentional in order to emphasize 02:24:765 - . Also that sound is snare focused, not kick.

I have problem with your priorities. Some 1/8 sounds (let's call them "woobs") are mapped as triple LN and some are mapped as 1/8 rolls, main difference is intense and pitch of woobs. Don't you think it's way too different ways to represent such similar sounds?

I'm pretty sure you can make it more clear and systematic so it doesn't look random.
For example 02:38:925 - and 02:46:605 - are literally the same sounds but mapped differently.

So basically it's like woobs wubs weebs or whatever and the structure is 1/8 streem with stutter -> slowjam LN.
However, that first triple LN is, for emphasis of a new section starting, which is expressed with different SVs.

My suggestion:
When kiai passes, make all long woobs as 1/8 rolls. For example:
02:23:565 - this should be a roll, but 02:25:485 - these are fine as triple LNs because of often pitch changing
02:29:325 - this is also good for roll
etc. I hope you got my point

-----
SV

I believe 02:13:965 (133965|2,133965|3,134025|0,134085|1,134145|2) - and 02:14:205 (134205|1,134205|0) - are pretty similar (they are kinda two halfs of one sound). But the SV power difference is so big that it makes it look like these are pretty different sound when they are not.

My suggestion:
02:13:965 - nerf this SV to maybe 1.5x>0.5x or something like that so it doesn't stand out so much

Well, they are still different sounds and somehow played okay, so I believe it'll be okay. Also slowjam isn't that weak comparing with stutters.

I checked only second half of the map so you might want to apply it for the first half as well

DDMythical wrote:

change the denser js bursts into one hand trills LOL

shionelove wrote:

i was going to put modding about ghost notes here,but it was already discovered by QAT and NOT FIXED.

i don't want to talk about mapping quality because i can't handle this kind of 4k properly but...I have to say ghost notes should be NEVER allowed.
drama incoming?

shionelove wrote:

it's around 00:08,called build up in music theory.snare rhythm is not simple 1/4,so some 2nd note in two-notes-jack are ghost,and others are not. anyway,it depends on community,if QAT says 2+2=5,it's 5.

shionelove wrote:

drama incoming?

Dreamwalker wrote:

If QAT says 2+2=5, it's still 4. QATs have their power, yet they are the same mappers. They can make mistakes, they may have different view and understandings about mapping, and their own rules for ranked section may change. We mappers, individually have rights to deny QATs' suggestion if we think there are proper reasons for keeping our own patterns, although we may be wrong, and that's why we can have diversity in ranked section.

shionelove wrote:

it depends on community,if QAT says 2+2=5,it's 5.