Taiko ScoreV2 Discussion

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Endaris wrote:

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.
smoogipooo go away, no one wants these shitty scoring systems ported from standard. Taiko is not standard, mania is not standard, and you're not doing favours to anyone by forcing a scoring system upon these communities that's almost as bad as the old one from standard.
Two things.


smoogipooo wrote:

Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.
I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?


smoogipooo wrote:

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.
Sorry to be so blunt but v2 is a load of crap.

The current system is working really well and allows newcomers to easily get into it while still rewarding skilled players by allowing them to achieve higher scores. Why change it into something that doesn't really reward the best players much but harshly punishes those that are not as good (yet)?

The miss on finishers is a horrible idea, it breaks so many maps and favors certain play styles over others. The current system rewards hitting them with double scores and if you want to top the leaderboards you kind of need to play them already. But it doesn't kill the accuracy of players who decide to play a little safe and take the hit in score instead.

If you want to change finishers then give them a marginally higher pp if played with both notes, so that hitting all on finisher heavy maps would award around 5% more pp.

The drumroll changes are kind of meh. They are intended as bonus points to achieve the highest possible scores and already allow different high scores even on SS plays. The only thing this change would achieve is again to make it only harder to get into taiko.

I can accept the changes to spinners if I really had to but this would kill some gimmick maps and make short (ninja) spinners pretty annoying.

The HP system is horrid for Taiko. This isn't Mania or CtB (thank god). Do you want to kill everyone that misses one stream on harder maps? Even though they would still easily pass with the current HP system?
Many maps balanced their HP settings to exactly what their creators intended, allowing a certain amount of misses over the whole map on each difficulty. Why break this system and force something in that's a lot worse?

What is the reasoning behind limiting the score you can achieve on a map?
Is score v2 going to apply to converts as well? Because if yes then it's even worse than it already looks.

With these suggested changes it's like you want Taiko to slowly die and fade away. It arguably favors only the very best players (which by definition are limited to a small number) while making it a chore to get into this gamemode, effectively driving away new players and therefore slowly killing the gamemode.

Bottom line: Don't change a running system, Taiko is fine as is and we all love it for what it is. Don't force changes for the sake of change and don't even dare thinking about forcing change just to bring Taiko in line with other gamemodes. If I wanted Mania I'd play Mania.
couldn't have said it better myself
Zac Efron
OK, don't listen to the community that runs your game. It's not like we want this game to thrive too or anything.

Why the fuck was this even considered, the community has been begging for other things to be fixed/changed for years. Instead you break the only thing that works properly in this mode. Why not listen to the community and do what them as a whole want rather than your own changes that make no sense, especially since none of you actually play this mode seriously. How are you supposed to understand? You are going to argue with the community as a whole for breaking our favorite mode? Why?

The community for years has been begging for Converts to not be playable in taiko because of the amount of broken pp that can be gained and the technological advantage people can get from "TL"ing < which only like 20 people in this community can do properly. We have begged for a better pp system that wouldn't break on converts. We've asked for so many things in regards to how to gameplay works and have never criticized the score system.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of attention the community gets. We may not directly, but we keep this game running and by angering and pushing people away you are taking away the most crucial part of this game.

You can complain about the skinning finishers out but that's at the fault if the client for allowing it, not ours for doing it. Also you have taken absolutely no consideration for ddkk/kkdd players. Who physically can not do some of these things that are now required. What about the Taikomania skins?? Those will be unusable too. Let's kill off half of the community because why the fuck not. Seriously, are you retarded? I won't forget to mention how last second this would be unless you are delaying TWC, and even if you are. That's still retarded considering how fucking broken it is now.

We as the Taiko community are begging you, cancel this and work on something we've been asking for, for years. Such as, the pp system, removing converts from existence, etc. Listen to your fucking community, or kill the mode with a giant fucking sword. Up to you. "Community Managers"

This may have broken a few community rules, and by that, i frankly don't care. You're breaking the game and THAT'S WORTH breaking the rules. Not like any staff is going to even consider this post anyways. BECAUSE "FUCK THE COMMUNITY!"

EDIT: How the hell is this only a score change even? Counting spinners/sliders/finishers as missed unless played properly and the new HP is changing the games mechanics. Please stop!

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Also, please don't everyone's favorite loved map
>>> Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania <<<


Then change the name of the game to osu!Drums instead of Taiko
What about big drumrolls, do they need to be played with one or two presses per tick?

EDIT: Also, dd kk hits or do dk kd hits work as well, if they needed to be double-hit?
big drumrolls can be hit like normal drum rolls, but yield more score.
Jason X

Jaye wrote:

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.
for world cups ok, but in general?

a new scoring system for big notes
miss if you don't hit 30% of a slider in taiko
hp for the sliders in taiko
combo for spinners
miss if you don't finish a spinner
hp for spinners

this kinda sounds like the opposite of what taiko is

in other taiko games (Taiko no tatsujin, taiko jiro and more) is it the same way (ok, the score system is different, but shakers and drum rolls should either not give combo or break the combo)
in this point i probably will lose the half of my fc'd ranks cause i not finished the shakers (wasn't fast enough cause my hands needs rest form the kiai before)

Loctav wrote:

people skin away finisher objects to normal objects
never heared about something like this in the time i'm here

1000000 max score sounds like a bad idea at all

Catgirl wrote:

Invective wrote:

(quote="Loctav")also who cares about unranked maps?(/quote)
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant
only ranked maps in TWC? i don't know much about TWC cause i don't care about, but i see in LMS:SE2 allready that a lot unranked maps are used.
also there are so many good maps that should be ranked (or loved), but for some reasons
(just for example, don't punish me for this not enough modders, lazy bn's, mappers that know nothing about ranking a map, map owner don't understand english)
they aren't ranked

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
I don't understand why we need a new score system (outside of tournaments I guess), but here goes my 4.20 cents :

Normal notes
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.Nothing changed here.

Finisher notes
[*] Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.That's ok for me, score is not the important part of the PP calculation, and that's a HUGE cheese on tournaments, bit punitive, but I guess that's the point.
[*] Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.EDIT : Some gameplays will not allow that, also, with new mapping rules (allowing finishers at end of streams) it will get extremely tedious to combobreak to every big note you can't hit (GL hitting every finishers on a xxxxx X xxxxx X xxxxx / X xxx X xxx X xxx X at high BPM. It adds challenge for sure, but it's just a pain to read, and to play)
Same for some players that doesn't seem to record the big notes correctly, even when they hit both their keys

Drum rolls
[*] Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.Nothing changed here.
[*] Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.Nope, That's a huge fuck-up, the accuracy needed on 1/4 on some higher bpm maps with mods is going to break. Every time you locktick your slider, you're done. Ofc, with 25+ ticks sliders, that'll be fine because you can catch-up, but with short ones, you'll not have time to react, and that's not going to work
[*] Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.Again, that's bad, we're going a lot of steps backward
[*] Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.See above points
[*] Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.Why not.

[*] A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.Fine, but again, due to the lockticks, some quick spinners can lock up as well, that's 100% avoidable though
[*] A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.Why not.
[*] Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.Why not.

[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.Yeah, no. Again, this has to do with the mapping community, and how things were done until now, GL clearing Galaxy Collapse with such an idea. You guys better fix the actual HP issue (Scaling too high with large amount of notes/Too low with low amount)

While I kinda agree with big notes changes(only score, again, no miss if you don't double hit, so that's fine), everything else is... just bad.

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
You are mapping, and you DARE say that ?

OFC it's optionnal, because we're using drumrolls and spinners 75% of the time to map UNMAPPABLE part of the song (Or would be too hard, a huge drumroll instead of a HUGE 24+ notes stream on a muzu for example)
I understand that it would be nice to not have to ignore these mechanics (and get away with it), but that's what makes them BONUS, you don't hit them ? you don't get the score, you hit them ? you get the bonus point. End of story.
If you want to make them mandatory, you better adapt to every BPM, every star rating, every OD set, every SV set; yeah, good luck on that.

Also forgot, Good luck streaming 1/4 180+ Finishers drumrolls..., i'm not even talking about low star rating maps, kantan and fuutsu are going to be the worst pain to map and plan.
R.I.P beginners (yeah, goodluck spamming 1/4 everywhere because we couldn't map anything but drumrolls/spinners on the music, also, if you just spam or hit 1/2 ? Not working again)

Maybe that would give mapping diversity, but i'm not even sure about that.

I'm not talking about unranked maps, everything has been said already

So yeah, unless that's World Cup / Competition only, that's a huge no-no.

(As always, sorry for my painful-to-read English)

Jason X wrote:

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.
I actually think that the ScoreV2 system isn't that bad.
It implements some good features like giving more reward for Finishers.
But hitting them should still remain optional or at least give you the same amount of points as an inaccurate hit if you single tap it.

Endaris wrote:

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.
I can definitely agree with that.

Besides that the changes don't seem as bad as everyone says..
Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
I agree that the notelocking on spinners and slider ticks is a problem and I think the notelocking actually needs to go. (tbh I never got why they were a thing in the first place)

I agree that drum rolls and spinners are supposed to yield the "bonus score", but I also think that you need to at least perform on them a bit. hence why you need to hit 30% of the drum roll ticks, everything above stays optional.

For spinners, I think we can implement some sort of tiering that turns them into more than just "either complete or miss", something like "if you hit at least the half of the ticks, you get a 100, if you didnt even bother hitting the half of it, you miss".

Drum rolls and spinners therefore still contain their function of yielding the bonus score, however, you need to play them at least a bit to not miss entirely (therefore punishing it to ignore it at all).

Yes, HP scaling is off the roof and will be fixed.

Drum roll ticks forced to 1/4 is only an issue because of tick locking, right? If tick locking wouldnt be so retarded, this wouldnt even be an issue. Especially if you just have to hit 30% of the ticks.
And yes, Drum roll points should be a bonus score and dont count into the combo portion, I agree here.

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

agu wrote:

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
I'm saying that they should remain optional or at least give you 100s (which is probably the better way to do it). Also Finishers currently only give you 2x points which isn't very rewarding, but 4x sound pretty fair to me.

This isn't even the final version.. Im just making some suggestions.
"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
I wonder what brought upon the catalyst for change...?

Notelocking is the only thing that makes this osu!taiko stand out from regular TnT, when you really think about it. I don't think notelocking is a problem, it prevents button mashing from being a thing.
Jason X

agu wrote:

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiais

also, how should beginners play this? i saw a lot of players that can't play finishers not even in Kantan diffs
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo

An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse
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