As you all might have noticed, I have recently been working to implement ScoreV2 for Taiko. This will be used for the upcoming TWC 2017.

I'm opening this thread up because I'm interested in discussing and hearing your thoughts about ScoreV2. I will be working with people to implement changes to make sure the scoring system works well for everyone.


Here are a few changes as talking points about the current Taiko ScoreV2 system:







And please _please_ don't spam me with PMs telling me to read a comment in here ;___;.

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.

i was gonna write a much longer reply but yeah, really everything in here seems unnecessary without some reasoning of why things even needed to be changed at all. "trying to make things similar to other modes" isn't really a valid answer.

i have very mixed feelings on requiring finishers to be hit. from a tournament standpoint, you're losing out on lots of points already if you don't hit them (assuming they're not required), so causing a miss for not hitting them just seems like overkill. even simple stuff like a finisher at the end of a stream could be killer in a tournament with this change.

drumroll and spinner stuff is meh, i don't like breaking combo for missing either of these, but they should not really be an issue. they can break certain kinds of maps though as well, especially if TWC ends up having any gimmick picks with short spinners, you'd have to be really careful selecting maps.

HP system is just... why is this necessary? just because the other modes have it?

i just don't feel like anything introduced here really needed to be changed. i also don't want TWC to be a testing ground for a broken score system so these things really need to be addressed before TWC happens.

EDIT: also the notice being short on what's actually going to be in score v2 and what isn't can possibly change stuff for team selection, so if things are changing back and forth before the tourney starts, it could cause problems for some countries. because of this it might be best to stick with score v1 for this year or set a date to finalize everything and make no more changes to the system, and make that date well before registrations end.

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

Garpo wrote:

The only beneficial thing I've seen from Scorev2 is making spinners worth a flat 300 so Hard Rock SS is equal to a Hidden SS which has been a problem for a long time in tournaments.

Having HP drain sounds like a dumb idea on paper, a lot of maps have large difficulty spikes which would results in players failing in situations they normally wouldn't be.

the default taiko HP system doesnt make inherent sense, though. although it being overtuned (as said), I don't mind this kind of HP at all. it works for mania, though works for taiko, too.

In a tournament setting like TWC, I see if you don't hit finishers properly it counts as a miss in a positive way. There won't be loved mapped like Looming Shadow or other obscure loved/Unranked maps. although maps like Da x10 have been. Counting it as a miss is a bit harsh but I don't know how harsh a miss punishes you in scorev2.

yeah well, if people wouldn't skin their finisher objects to normal objects and simply ignore a crucial mechanic on beatmaps that are designed in a way that they are way more tricky with playing them but absolutely trivial without (see looming shadows or no money down), this wouldnt need to be a thing. but finishers are a gameplay mechanic - and with old scores, they are entirely optional to do. ignoring mechanics that have been put with full intention to be ignored at all shouldn't be a thing. Hitting finishers should be easier now - or at least, it does actually show you hitting them, as the leniency didn't change (30ms right now I think?)

Drum rolls being forced to 1/4 and counting as a 300/miss is plain stupid. Sure, you might implement a way to change the tick rate but on older fast maps that may be used could cause some issues with it being extremely difficult to hit all of the ticks. Another issues is that if you slightly miss time the head of it and don't realize it in time, you could be tick locking yourself out by hitting between ticks and it being almost impossible to get back into it.

drum rolls being 1/2 on high BPM doesnt make sense either. drum rolls turning to 1/8 on DT neither. Having them on 1/4 is the most proper way to handle this (and making them 1/3 if tickrate is 3, which is hopefully to come, I already brought that up). Ticks are indeed difficult to hit because of some weird note locking, however, you dont have to hit all ticks. a completion is reached with hitting 30% of the slider's ticks. only if you hit less than 30%, you gain a miss. although we need to look into this note locking, I think it also affects spinners.

Spinners counting as a miss if not completed shouldn't be an issue during TWC. There is a very little chance that there will be maps with ninja ones, it is completely your fault if you don't complete it and are punished accordingly.

even with, imo crying about ninja spinners is really just crying, because completing them isnt even remotely hard and ignoring them should be as punished as finishers (same reason)

What I see is that, Scorev2 is very punishing to players who don't play perfectly every time. From finishers counting as misses to the 1 Million score cap.
that's the idea. there is the same accuracy/combo weighting as in mania right now (iirc? don't quote me here). Taiko relies less on combo and tiering score increase now - and taiko always punished those who don't play perfectly every time, so this isn't really a concern

All in all, I think doing this is the step into the right direction, HP drain is harsh and can't behave like in osu!standard (dunno if it considers NCs, if yes, it shouldn't), OD ratings stayed the same and I think we didn't really talk or look into mods (HD, HR, DT, HDHR) yet, so you shouldn't judge that just yet, however preliminary suggestions always work out.


The argument wheter we need this or not is uuuh, let's say that Taiko is probably the most lenient game mode in all of its aspect but hit accuracy (has the harshest hit windows of all game modes), however Taiko allows you to ignore pretty much over the half of its mechanics and just faceroll through all the normal notes. ScoreV2 gives the other half of the mechanics a way higher weightening, changes how maps play and reduce the cheesing through game mechanics (here again: SKINS) and make the maps and its elements be played the way they are supposed to be played.

i don't think anyone who would be playing in a world cup or tournament setting, knowing that finishers need to be hit for higher score, would be using a skin that ignores them. they'd already be screwing themselves over by doing that.

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

EDIT : ok i thought mandatory big notes and survival hp was a glitch back then so eeeeee please do not do that or don't call this game a TnT simulator anymore

but like i said if it's only a mod for some tournaments then it would be pretty cool, but not as the main score system because of the fact that (almost) all of the maps have be created for the current score system and loooooooot of stuff would be unplayable with this system

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream

animexamera wrote:

I will probably quit if this gets though

20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)

the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria

2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?

Savoiyare wrote:

That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system

care to elaborate why?

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.

i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.

i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.

but they do use no finisher skins already. this is all speculation. the sheer option to cheese through this game mechanic shouldnt be a thing in the first place. sure some maps are not designed to work with that change, but I think none of these are ranked.

Loctav wrote:

I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft.

Why should that factor into a scoring system for taiko?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.


I'd argue the same for finishers but I don't even want to argue about this.

Invective wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

Thats literally the point of a BONUS, finishers/sliders/spinners are supposed to be a score bonus, not an unavoidable part of the map lol. Like wth is the point of maximizing a score in a mode with bonus elements........

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.

After discussions made on #taiko channel I have come to write my opinions about this scoreV2 system.

About these finisher hits: That's unneccessary. This forces to play taiko with 4 fingers even there are so many index finger players. This is important because of the finishers after 1/4 or 1/6 streams (which are seen from convert maps) will be unneccesarily hard to hit for 2 finger players. Score change is fair, but having a miss on a single hit is not.

Drum rolls: Not unlogical, but have some mistakes in my opinion. Because this makes sliders harder than streams which can be hit with 100 points. If you miss the first tick on this slider, it will be very hard to hit them right again because the ticks are more difficult to hit than the original notes.

Spinners: Bye bye loved maps.

Health: Not fair. Because if you miss in a stream, (for me anyway, maybe I'm doing it wrong) it's very hard to recover in a stream without a break about 10 or 15ms to hit another note, which causes unconsistency unneccesarily. For example: In a 200 BPM song, if it has +-70ms (which is a 140ms gap, OD 6.5), you will miss every note in a 1/4 stream because the song will have 75 ms gap between these 2 notes (think of it as 1 note and it will be 37.5 ms) and you miss it automatically. Mania does not have it hence it has this HP system. Taiko maps are a note in a flat line and doesn't work as mania as. So Taiko can't have this system in my opinion.

Nofool wrote:

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??

Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.

The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.
However, the planned change to finisher notes is just a poor decision. Even if you hit the finisher note with one key instead of two, you essentially still hit it. Gaining less score from that is a completely fair and reasonable punishment, punishing that with a miss is taking things a bit too far. As frukoyurdakul said, hitting finisher notes at the end of a 1/4 stream or pattern will be just a pain to hit. Don't even start with justifying it with jacks in mania. Taiko isn't mania. Comparing those two modes with eachother is bound to be stupid.

It's understandable you want osu!taiko to be a more unique game, but at this point you are taking the original game's mechanics and throw in a unnecessary and tedious twist for the sake of being different.

Edit: Also agreeing with Nofool about the loved section. Why adding it if you plan on ruining it 3 months later?

in which other than the 1 million max score, the currently listed changes are:
>has starting HP like all other game modes
>sliders (which are drumrolls) and spinners have the same behaviors like those in all other game modes -- except CTB in regards of spinners
>drumrolls and big notes, elements whose purposes are to reward bonus points for more skilled players, become mandatory in reaching the max score

...because it just isn't bearable to let this mode be of enough uniqueness ('uniquity'?) compared to the other modes and it has to be some sort of 'standardized' to the osu! environment, to the other game modes. Taiko that ISN'T Taiko? Might as well ditch the "Taiko" in "osu!Taiko" and rename it to something else.

this new system would definitely fuck up Taiko's current foundations (including but not limited to the Loved maps section) if it ever becomes final, but if you guys want to implement it so very badly, I'd say keep it within official tournaments and ONLY official tournaments, NOT anywhere else. Even if it does get implemented, mappool selection in said tournaments must be WAY MORE stricter and careful in order to comply with the changes that this system brings, although that would 'most probably' (if not 'certainly') need a heck lot of miracles to happen.

---------------------

if anything, I think some other things need to be addressed before issuing any kind of new system in the gameplay, such as the note-locking problem and the HP gain/loss rate correlation (i.e. the difference in marathon maps VS in regular-length maps).

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

Also while I agree with the reasons to make finishers an actual part of the gameplay I'm not sure if a miss is the appropriate punishment - maybe a 100 instead?
Even though I'm too bad at Taiko to follow the actual gameplay on screen I always found Taiko tournaments be fairly exciting to watch and part of the reason for that was how the current score system is suited to keep things close.

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.

I'm strongly against Taiko ScoreV2, but why ?

First of all : It's been a while that Drum rolls and Spinners are bonus, and big notes were optionals. This soft system leads to an emergence of a lot of various and uniques playstyle. To this point, I believe there is not a major playstyle proper to taiko, but a lot of various playstyle which all have their strengths and their weakness.

If the bonus aren't referenced as bonus anymore, all thoses playstyle and players will lose the thing that makes them uniques and funny to play, in benefit to a unique mandatory, generic and boring playstyle, that will lead to an overall (big) loss for the game.

Secondary : I'm even more against the new HP system, all of the taiko map since now were designed for the current HP system. I believe that most of the rankeds map can easily switch on the ScoreV2 HP System, but lot of unranked map has been made for fun, challenge, and troll and does not fit the ScoreV2 HP System.

But why am I talking about unranked map since no one cares ?

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.
http://puu.sh/tE0g7/0ef73afbec.png

At high stars, there is few ranked map that I (and i'm sure that a lot of others players too) need to play unranked map to have some fresh/original/unpopular/funny content. For these unranked map, most of them doesn't fit the ScoreV2 because they weren't created for it. Moreover, I think you know what i am talking about, since for at least 2 year there has been some unranked beatmap for the TWC.

Cordially,
Electrano.

Endaris wrote:

Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.

This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.

‎

Two things.

1.

smoogipooo wrote:

Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.

I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?

2.

smoogipooo wrote:

Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.

Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.

Sorry to be so blunt but v2 is a load of crap.

The current system is working really well and allows newcomers to easily get into it while still rewarding skilled players by allowing them to achieve higher scores. Why change it into something that doesn't really reward the best players much but harshly punishes those that are not as good (yet)?

The miss on finishers is a horrible idea, it breaks so many maps and favors certain play styles over others. The current system rewards hitting them with double scores and if you want to top the leaderboards you kind of need to play them already. But it doesn't kill the accuracy of players who decide to play a little safe and take the hit in score instead.

If you want to change finishers then give them a marginally higher pp if played with both notes, so that hitting all on finisher heavy maps would award around 5% more pp.


The drumroll changes are kind of meh. They are intended as bonus points to achieve the highest possible scores and already allow different high scores even on SS plays. The only thing this change would achieve is again to make it only harder to get into taiko.


I can accept the changes to spinners if I really had to but this would kill some gimmick maps and make short (ninja) spinners pretty annoying.


The HP system is horrid for Taiko. This isn't Mania or CtB (thank god). Do you want to kill everyone that misses one stream on harder maps? Even though they would still easily pass with the current HP system?
Many maps balanced their HP settings to exactly what their creators intended, allowing a certain amount of misses over the whole map on each difficulty. Why break this system and force something in that's a lot worse?


What is the reasoning behind limiting the score you can achieve on a map?
Is score v2 going to apply to converts as well? Because if yes then it's even worse than it already looks.


With these suggested changes it's like you want Taiko to slowly die and fade away. It arguably favors only the very best players (which by definition are limited to a small number) while making it a chore to get into this gamemode, effectively driving away new players and therefore slowly killing the gamemode.

Bottom line: Don't change a running system, Taiko is fine as is and we all love it for what it is. Don't force changes for the sake of change and don't even dare thinking about forcing change just to bring Taiko in line with other gamemodes. If I wanted Mania I'd play Mania.

couldn't have said it better myself

OK, don't listen to the community that runs your game. It's not like we want this game to thrive too or anything.

Why the fuck was this even considered, the community has been begging for other things to be fixed/changed for years. Instead you break the only thing that works properly in this mode. Why not listen to the community and do what them as a whole want rather than your own changes that make no sense, especially since none of you actually play this mode seriously. How are you supposed to understand? You are going to argue with the community as a whole for breaking our favorite mode? Why?

The community for years has been begging for Converts to not be playable in taiko because of the amount of broken pp that can be gained and the technological advantage people can get from "TL"ing < which only like 20 people in this community can do properly. We have begged for a better pp system that wouldn't break on converts. We've asked for so many things in regards to how to gameplay works and have never criticized the score system.

One thing I don't understand is the lack of attention the community gets. We may not directly, but we keep this game running and by angering and pushing people away you are taking away the most crucial part of this game.

You can complain about the skinning finishers out but that's at the fault if the client for allowing it, not ours for doing it. Also you have taken absolutely no consideration for ddkk/kkdd players. Who physically can not do some of these things that are now required. What about the Taikomania skins?? Those will be unusable too. Let's kill off half of the community because why the fuck not. Seriously, are you retarded? I won't forget to mention how last second this would be unless you are delaying TWC, and even if you are. That's still retarded considering how fucking broken it is now.

We as the Taiko community are begging you, cancel this and work on something we've been asking for, for years. Such as, the pp system, removing converts from existence, etc. Listen to your fucking community, or kill the mode with a giant fucking sword. Up to you. "Community Managers"

This may have broken a few community rules, and by that, i frankly don't care. You're breaking the game and THAT'S WORTH breaking the rules. Not like any staff is going to even consider this post anyways. BECAUSE "FUCK THE COMMUNITY!"

EDIT: How the hell is this only a score change even? Counting spinners/sliders/finishers as missed unless played properly and the new HP is changing the games mechanics. Please stop!

Loctav wrote:

also who cares about unranked maps?

Also, please don't everyone's favorite loved map

What about big drumrolls, do they need to be played with one or two presses per tick?

EDIT: Also, dd kk hits or do dk kd hits work as well, if they needed to be double-hit?

big drumrolls can be hit like normal drum rolls, but yield more score.

Jaye wrote:

n1doking wrote:

what was wrong with the old scoring system

why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine

i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all

Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.

for world cups ok, but in general?

---------------------------------------------------------
a new scoring system for big notes
miss if you don't hit 30% of a slider in taiko
hp for the sliders in taiko
combo for spinners
miss if you don't finish a spinner
hp for spinners

this kinda sounds like the opposite of what taiko is

in other taiko games (Taiko no tatsujin, taiko jiro and more) is it the same way (ok, the score system is different, but shakers and drum rolls should either not give combo or break the combo)
in this point i probably will lose the half of my fc'd ranks cause i not finished the shakers (wasn't fast enough cause my hands needs rest form the kiai before)

Loctav wrote:

people skin away finisher objects to normal objects

never heared about something like this in the time i'm here

1000000 max score sounds like a bad idea at all

Catgirl wrote:

Invective wrote:

(quote="Loctav")also who cares about unranked maps?(/quote)
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.

better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportant

only ranked maps in TWC? i don't know much about TWC cause i don't care about, but i see in LMS:SE2 allready that a lot unranked maps are used.
also there are so many good maps that should be ranked (or loved), but for some reasons they aren't ranked

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.

if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about

I don't understand why we need a new score system (outside of tournaments I guess), but here goes my 4.20 cents :

Normal notes
[*] Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.Nothing changed here.

Finisher notes
[*] Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.That's ok for me, score is not the important part of the PP calculation, and that's a HUGE cheese on tournaments, bit punitive, but I guess that's the point.
[*] Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.EDIT : Some gameplays will not allow that, also, with new mapping rules (allowing finishers at end of streams) it will get extremely tedious to combobreak to every big note you can't hit (GL hitting every finishers on a xxxxx X xxxxx X xxxxx / X xxx X xxx X xxx X at high BPM. It adds challenge for sure, but it's just a pain to read, and to play)
Same for some players that doesn't seem to record the big notes correctly, even when they hit both their keys

Drum rolls
[*] Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.Nothing changed here.
[*] Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.Nope, That's a huge fuck-up, the accuracy needed on 1/4 on some higher bpm maps with mods is going to break. Every time you locktick your slider, you're done. Ofc, with 25+ ticks sliders, that'll be fine because you can catch-up, but with short ones, you'll not have time to react, and that's not going to work
[*] Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.Again, that's bad, we're going a lot of steps backward
[*] Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.See above points
[*] Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.Why not.

Spinners
[*] A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.Fine, but again, due to the lockticks, some quick spinners can lock up as well, that's 100% avoidable though
[*] A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.Why not.
[*] Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.Why not.

Health
[*] Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.Yeah, no. Again, this has to do with the mapping community, and how things were done until now, GL clearing Galaxy Collapse with such an idea. You guys better fix the actual HP issue (Scaling too high with large amount of notes/Too low with low amount)


While I kinda agree with big notes changes(only score, again, no miss if you don't double hit, so that's fine), everything else is... just bad.

Loctav wrote:

the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)

You are mapping, and you DARE say that ?

OFC it's optionnal, because we're using drumrolls and spinners 75% of the time to map UNMAPPABLE part of the song (Or would be too hard, a huge drumroll instead of a HUGE 24+ notes stream on a muzu for example)
I understand that it would be nice to not have to ignore these mechanics (and get away with it), but that's what makes them BONUS, you don't hit them ? you don't get the score, you hit them ? you get the bonus point. End of story.
If you want to make them mandatory, you better adapt to every BPM, every star rating, every OD set, every SV set; yeah, good luck on that.

Also forgot, Good luck streaming 1/4 180+ Finishers drumrolls..., i'm not even talking about low star rating maps, kantan and fuutsu are going to be the worst pain to map and plan.
R.I.P beginners (yeah, goodluck spamming 1/4 everywhere because we couldn't map anything but drumrolls/spinners on the music, also, if you just spam or hit 1/2 ? Not working again)

Maybe that would give mapping diversity, but i'm not even sure about that.

I'm not talking about unranked maps, everything has been said already

So yeah, unless that's World Cup / Competition only, that's a huge no-no.

(As always, sorry for my painful-to-read English)

Jason X wrote:

agu wrote:

please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.

if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about

??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.

I actually think that the ScoreV2 system isn't that bad.
It implements some good features like giving more reward for Finishers.
But hitting them should still remain optional or at least give you the same amount of points as an inaccurate hit if you single tap it.

Endaris wrote:

Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.

I can definitely agree with that.


Besides that the changes don't seem as bad as everyone says..

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.

I agree that the notelocking on spinners and slider ticks is a problem and I think the notelocking actually needs to go. (tbh I never got why they were a thing in the first place)

I agree that drum rolls and spinners are supposed to yield the "bonus score", but I also think that you need to at least perform on them a bit. hence why you need to hit 30% of the drum roll ticks, everything above stays optional.

For spinners, I think we can implement some sort of tiering that turns them into more than just "either complete or miss", something like "if you hit at least the half of the ticks, you get a 100, if you didnt even bother hitting the half of it, you miss".

Drum rolls and spinners therefore still contain their function of yielding the bonus score, however, you need to play them at least a bit to not miss entirely (therefore punishing it to ignore it at all).

Yes, HP scaling is off the roof and will be fixed.

Drum roll ticks forced to 1/4 is only an issue because of tick locking, right? If tick locking wouldnt be so retarded, this wouldnt even be an issue. Especially if you just have to hit 30% of the ticks.
And yes, Drum roll points should be a bonus score and dont count into the combo portion, I agree here.

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

agu wrote:

Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.

I'm saying that they should remain optional or at least give you 100s (which is probably the better way to do it). Also Finishers currently only give you 2x points which isn't very rewarding, but 4x sound pretty fair to me.

This isn't even the final version.. Im just making some suggestions.

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?

I wonder what brought upon the catalyst for change...?

Notelocking is the only thing that makes this osu!taiko stand out from regular TnT, when you really think about it. I don't think notelocking is a problem, it prevents button mashing from being a thing.

agu wrote:

"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."

If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?

i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiais

also, how should beginners play this? i saw a lot of players that can't play finishers not even in Kantan diffs

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.

Opinions on stuff in blue

smoogipooo wrote:

Normal notes

1. Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
   Everything's good here

Finisher notes

1. Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
   I'm guessing you meant 'drum roll' to be 'finisher' here. This is a positive change!
   
   
2. Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
   While conceptually I like this change I feel it'll hinder variety if map pool selectors decide to use any gimmick maps (PS: Please do, we've been bombarded by the same types of maps for so long without any SV / gimmick picks to choose from for reading oriented players). Perhaps instead of forcing a miss leave this at the new 4* multiplier? This already alleviates a lot of the problems with finishers having very little value.

Drum rolls

1. Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
   Ok
   
   
2. Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
   I would consider this an issue but there was already discussion about fixing sliders to have 1/3 in 1/3 snap maps (this has needed to happen for FOREVER)
   
   
3. Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
   Very good change, this allows players and commentators to get a much better idea of where extra score is coming from
   
   
4. Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
   So this is either a combo break or extra points (previously completion of a drum roll gave no points barring the ticks). Also has minor impact on gimmick maps explained later.
   
   
5. Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
   Good change considering health changes below

Spinners

1. A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
   I'm cool with this but this (mostly along with the health changes) makes certain gimmick maps impossible to pass (Cirno's Perfect Math Class for example from loved category) limiting diverse / gimmick maps that could be included in the pools. This is otherwise fine for maps that do not abuse scorev1 spinner health drain. Possible solution to this explained in health.
   
2. A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
   No issues here.
   
   
3. Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
   Same as above.

Health

1. Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
   This is the biggest and probably most interesting change made. Depending on what maps you look at this has pros and cons. Some of these cons have solutions.
   
   The biggest cons is how this impacts maps that use spinners in an abusive way. There are some maps that would use spinners as intentional health drain by throwing multiple short duration spinners at you (Hi Cirno!) that will have immediate fails in scorev2 upon getting to these sections (unless you can play these sections somehow, there are like 1-2 people who can). A possible solution to this is to drastically lower the amount of health lost from a failed spinner or to not have spinner misses impact health and only impact score. I had originally thought this would impact drumrolls as well, but after testing maps that use 'note sliders' (no length sliders basically) such as the ones in Cirno's Perfect Math Class, combo break is not being forced so no health is being lost. Due to this they are not impacted by the health changes, so this is only a problem with spinners.
   
   Positives of this include a healthier tournament system (failing is now possible) and a system that more accurately depicts if you are passing or failing a section, making it easier to understand for both players and viewers at an immediate glance instead of just "is my health bar above the pass line"
   

Overall? I like the changes quite a bit, especially for a tournament setting. Having the ability for a player to fail or even a team to all fail at once if one player out of three can't hit a difficult section brings a lot more competitiveness to a tournament setting. Score scaling also makes much more sense now and single misses aren't nearly as significant as accuracy and overall consistency compared to scorev1. I however still believe that there should be changes made before this is finalized to allow as diverse a mappool as possible.

5urface wrote:

@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.

How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.

well, given that you only have to hit 30% of them, hitting only the 1/2 ticks of them works just fine. in original TnT (even though this isnt really a valid point), they are even free spam parts where you can hit as fast as you want. Drumrolls should be, in my idea, a part where you just hit as fast as possible whatever possible (consider you can hit dons and kats on drumrolls in any sort of combination). Maybe we can scale the amount of completion required with OD? That would scale the needed percentage down in Kantans and Futsuus, as they have a lower OD.

And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo

given that combo score only occupies a small minority of scorev2 (30%? 20%? even less?), breaking combo penalizes the score you gain via combo, but the biggest portion will still remain accuracy, which a miss would impact way high than a 100. It's decreasing the penalty in every way, but I still believe that making the combo break is crucial to measure the combo portion of the score properly. Keep in mind that scorev2 does not use the classic score tiering upon combo like scorev2!


An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse

don't forget that this isnt been replacing scorev1. At least not in its current stage. Before this even happens (and the concerned appliance on kantans and futsuus), it will need to undergo plenty of revision first, like we do here. right now it is oriented for top level play and doesnt account lower difficulties perfectly just yet. So that is still open for debate how this system can be applied without breaking all kantans and futsuus altogether.

Catgirl wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.

if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.

yes, it gives you more accuracy score. read the quote reply above concerning how scorev2 separates score into an accuracy and combo portion.

frukoyurdakul wrote:

Loctav wrote:

I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

@tasha (too lazy to remove the boxes lol)

I don't see how making the finishers work like this (or even in the nerfed variation) slims the options in gimmick maps. if anything, it makes the map selection in world cups just different. And yes, I plan to make next one quite some tiers harder than before.

Also keep in mind that HP isnt drained properly right now. I didn't explain the way it was supposed to be sufficiently and therefore it is like triple too harsh than it should be. So do not judge upon that just yet, ok? A fix is already in the pipes and just needs to be thrown out.

Highest score should be 1,000,000 without sliders?
And now is the good opportunity to change slider's specification.
Make it like original taiko's one (can get score by player beats)

P.S. Let us beat big notes by a hand. Converted maps annoy me..

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses

Loctav wrote:

the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.

Not really. The finishers will be more effective than they were before, as in like, if a normal note's score is 1100, if that note would be a finisher, one key hit will give 550 points while 2 keys hit will give 4400. The score difference is about 3.8k for ONLY ONE finisher instead of 1.1k hence the score difference will be higher than before. Adding a combo break will destroy the points that will come for the rest of the map.

Btw JasonX: that is only discussed, not present right now. You miss if you don't hit finishers with 2 keys.

Jason X wrote:

Loctav wrote:

whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.

"but you don't miss"
i guess that mean i can't pass it, cause it was counted as misses

that's a proposal, that's not in the game yet...