i don't think anyone who would be playing in a world cup or tournament setting, knowing that finishers need to be hit for higher score, would be using a skin that ignores them. they'd already be screwing themselves over by doing that.
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.Loctav wrote:
For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft. also who cares about unranked maps?animexamera wrote:
I will probably quit if this gets though
20% of the unranked maps will be unplayable because of the finisher rule (katacheh maps for example)
the finisher rule is also really harsh to 2 finger players, all the more with the new ranking criteria
2 finger players cant hit a finisher on a stream
care to elaborate why?Savoiyare wrote:
That 1000000 max score would be a pretty fun mod
however i think it would be a bad idea to be the main score system
but they do use no finisher skins already. this is all speculation. the sheer option to cheese through this game mechanic shouldnt be a thing in the first place. sure some maps are not designed to work with that change, but I think none of these are ranked.Catgirl wrote:
i can see that for difficult sections because i do struggle reading some finisher spam sections, but still, what if there were 100 other finishers in the map that were easy to read? you'd be missing out on the easy score bonus for those 100 notes, which essentially is the same as missing in the tricky part and not getting your combo back for 100 notes.Loctav wrote:
For maps that make use of finishers like looming shadows do, people rather skin away the finishers than trying to get the extra score, because the odds of missing is way too high.
i just don't think anyone who goes for score in a tournament setting like this would be using a no finisher skin. only really targeting this because it's the only argument you really brought forth.
Why should that factor into a scoring system for taiko?Loctav wrote:
I REALLY wonder how mania people do that witchcraft.
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportantInvective wrote:
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
Thats literally the point of a BONUS, finishers/sliders/spinners are supposed to be a score bonus, not an unavoidable part of the map lol. Like wth is the point of maximizing a score in a mode with bonus elements........Loctav wrote:
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
The score system shouldn't be balanced around unrankable maps, ever. That's just retarded.Nofool wrote:
Dumbest shit i've seen, how far are you from reality lol. You know they recently added a loved section that actually allows unranked maps to get a scoreboard??Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
Why are you even answering on that thread tho, you obviously don't know shit about the gamemode.
You see, drumrolls and spinners can be ignored in the original game aswell, although the changes to those objects are mostly reasonable.Loctav wrote:
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
Here you can see how many ranked map there aproximatly are for some difficulties.Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
This is exactly going to happen. I am certain that players' comments about that will be ignored no matter what.Endaris wrote:
Well whatever.
No feedback was given for the standard v2 discussion thread so I'm pretty sure in spite of the "discussion thread" smoogi won't read most posts and not reply at all once again.
Kind of futile to post then I suppose.
I strongly disagree with this. It would break autoconverts that are already considered broken. I don't think streaming 300+ bpm with both fingers would be an option to anyone. Especially when HP values are calculated the same as osu!mania. I'm reffering to autoconverts such as marisa etc. What would happen about those?smoogipooo wrote:
Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania.
Not sure how I feel about this. Because taiko's HP is completely different than the other modes and it kind of makes sense. I don't really see a need to change it, but it's a change I can live with.smoogipooo wrote:
Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
Loctav wrote:
also who cares about unranked maps?
for world cups ok, but in general?Jaye wrote:
Probably just to fit in with the other world cups, it's true that we don't need this.n1doking wrote:
what was wrong with the old scoring system
why do we need a new one to replace a system that was perfectly fine
i don't understand the reasoning behind score v2 at all
never heared about something like this in the time i'm hereLoctav wrote:
people skin away finisher objects to normal objects
only ranked maps in TWC? i don't know much about TWC cause i don't care about, but i see in LMS:SE2 allready that a lot unranked maps are used.Catgirl wrote:
better be only ranked taiko maps in TWC this year, there are plenty of them so it shouldn't be a problem right? since unranked maps are unimportantInvective wrote:
(quote="Loctav")also who cares about unranked maps?(/quote)
You use looming shadow as an argument for finishers but it's not like that's ranked lol.
agu wrote:
please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
You are mapping, and you DARE say that ?Loctav wrote:
the old system is all about having majority of taiko's mechanics be optional, whereas they have been mapped with intention in most parts. people skin away finisher objects to normal objects, trivializing them, spinners can be ignored, sliders can be ignored. the only thing I sort of can see not necessarily need to change is HP, but HP was always sort of silly in taiko - and is a bit overtuned right now (no idea if the hotfix for this has been pushed yet)
??? I'm against these changes. As far as I can see, you seem to be too.Jason X wrote:
agu wrote:
please don't make drumrolls and spinners more than what they are: "useless" bonus points.
if you want to shoot at me cause i told you what i think, feel free, i don't care much about
Endaris wrote:
Just from a watching perspective I really think the HP-system of Taiko should stay as it is.
Having teams or players fail due to single spikes during a map or at the end is not desirable, be it from a watching or from a playing perspective.
Since Taiko is the only tapping-oriented gamemode where you can press wrong buttons in a way that throws you out of the mapflow the current way of dealing with HP makes absolute sense as you won't be instantly killed from the sort of common stream of misses and instead evaluated over the course of the whole map.
agu wrote:
Uhm, finishers already give more points if you hit them correctly. You're saying hitting them should be optional, but these changes are doing the exact opposite, not making them optional.
i think so, rip the most plays on Da x10 and other maps with Finisher Kiaisagu wrote:
"Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this."
If they "require" this now, does that not mean they count as a miss if you don't hit them with both?
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.Loctav wrote:
whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.Loctav wrote:
I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
Overall? I like the changes quite a bit, especially for a tournament setting. Having the ability for a player to fail or even a team to all fail at once if one player out of three can't hit a difficult section brings a lot more competitiveness to a tournament setting. Score scaling also makes much more sense now and single misses aren't nearly as significant as accuracy and overall consistency compared to scorev1. I however still believe that there should be changes made before this is finalized to allow as diverse a mappool as possible.smoogipooo wrote:
Normal notes
- Normal notes are unchanged. Scoring is 300 for an accurate hit, 100 for an inaccurate hit.
Everything's good hereFinisher notes
- Finishers are calculated last and are worth 4x the score. E.g. 300 normal -> 1200 finisher. 350 drum roll -> 1400 finisher.
I'm guessing you meant 'drum roll' to be 'finisher' here. This is a positive change!- Finishers require double presses, like a double chord in osu!mania. Lenience has not been adjusted for this.
While conceptually I like this change I feel it'll hinder variety if map pool selectors decide to use any gimmick maps (PS: Please do, we've been bombarded by the same types of maps for so long without any SV / gimmick picks to choose from for reading oriented players). Perhaps instead of forcing a miss leave this at the new 4* multiplier? This already alleviates a lot of the problems with finishers having very little value.Drum rolls
- Drum roll ticks are worth 350 points.
Ok- Drum roll ticks are forced to 1/4 spacing.
I would consider this an issue but there was already discussion about fixing sliders to have 1/3 in 1/3 snap maps (this has needed to happen for FOREVER)- Drum roll ticks are counted towards the "combo" portion of the score, as such they affect how close you get to 1000000 score.
Very good change, this allows players and commentators to get a much better idea of where extra score is coming from- Upon completion of a drum roll, a miss will be given if the player has hit less than 30% of the ticks (unsuccessful), otherwise a 300 hit will be given.
So this is either a combo break or extra points (previously completion of a drum roll gave no points barring the ticks).Also has minor impact on gimmick maps explained later.- Drum rolls award HP for each tick and for successful completion of the drum roll.
Good change considering health changes belowSpinners
- A miss will be given upon unsuccessful completion of a spinner.
I'm cool with this but this (mostly along with the health changes) makes certain gimmick maps impossible to pass (Cirno's Perfect Math Class for example from loved category) limiting diverse / gimmick maps that could be included in the pools. This is otherwise fine for maps that do not abuse scorev1 spinner health drain. Possible solution to this explained in health.- A 300 hit will be given upon successful completion of a spinner.
No issues here.- Spinners award around half the HP of drum rolls for each hit and for successful completion of the spinner.
Same as above.Health
- Taiko now has HP. HP values are calculated exactly the same as osu!mania.
This is the biggest and probably most interesting change made. Depending on what maps you look at this has pros and cons. Some of these cons have solutions.
The biggest cons is how this impacts maps that use spinners in an abusive way. There are some maps that would use spinners as intentional health drain by throwing multiple short duration spinners at you (Hi Cirno!) that will have immediate fails in scorev2 upon getting to these sections (unless you can play these sections somehow, there are like 1-2 people who can). A possible solution to this is to drastically lower the amount of health lost from a failed spinner or to not have spinner misses impact health and only impact score. I had originally thought this would impact drumrolls as well, but after testing maps that use 'note sliders' (no length sliders basically) such as the ones in Cirno's Perfect Math Class, combo break is not being forced so no health is being lost. Due to this they are not impacted by the health changes, so this is only a problem with spinners.
Positives of this include a healthier tournament system (failing is now possible) and a system that more accurately depicts if you are passing or failing a section, making it easier to understand for both players and viewers at an immediate glance instead of just "is my health bar above the pass line"
5urface wrote:
@Loctav
I stand by my previous points.
How is 1/4 drumrolls with forced hit percentage okay in a Kantan and Futsuu? Where mappers are advised to only map 1/1 and 1/2 and have to resort to drumrolls and spinners to add a bit of variety? The difficulty on those maps will be in no comparison to what they should be.
well, given that you only have to hit 30% of them, hitting only the 1/2 ticks of them works just fine. in original TnT (even though this isnt really a valid point), they are even free spam parts where you can hit as fast as you want. Drumrolls should be, in my idea, a part where you just hit as fast as possible whatever possible (consider you can hit dons and kats on drumrolls in any sort of combination). Maybe we can scale the amount of completion required with OD? That would scale the needed percentage down in Kantans and Futsuus, as they have a lower OD.
And your last finisher suggestion is not much better, if they award a 100 point hit if played with one note they should also award 50% accuracy and not break combo otherwise it's inconsistent with regular notes.
Have one note finishers be 50% acc and 100 points but not break combo if you really have to nerf one hit finishers. Anything more than that is way overkill and not a good change imo
given that combo score only occupies a small minority of scorev2 (30%? 20%? even less?), breaking combo penalizes the score you gain via combo, but the biggest portion will still remain accuracy, which a miss would impact way high than a 100. It's decreasing the penalty in every way, but I still believe that making the combo break is crucial to measure the combo portion of the score properly. Keep in mind that scorev2 does not use the classic score tiering upon combo like scorev2!
An important principle of gamedesign is "easy to learn, hard to master". Forcing these v2 changes onto Kantan and Futsuu maps will break many of them (as well as harder maps). The difficulty curve will be messed up and make it hard, even frustrating to get into taiko. The current system is forgiving for new players, giving them motivation to go on and improve their accuracy and score while also allowing good players to put in extra effort on bonus point elements to gain an edge on the leaderboard..
I don't understand why we should break this system and replace it with something worse
don't forget that this isnt been replacing scorev1. At least not in its current stage. Before this even happens (and the concerned appliance on kantans and futsuus), it will need to undergo plenty of revision first, like we do here. right now it is oriented for top level play and doesnt account lower difficulties perfectly just yet. So that is still open for debate how this system can be applied without breaking all kantans and futsuus altogether.
yes, it gives you more accuracy score. read the quote reply above concerning how scorev2 separates score into an accuracy and combo portion.Catgirl wrote:
combobreak vs miss on a finisher from not using both keys... correct me if i'm wrong but does this change anything apart from giving you an S rank instead of an A assuming FC on the rest of this map? because if not, then it's doing nothing meaningful to the score apart from the extra points you got from getting a 100 vs a miss, which is negligible.Loctav wrote:
whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.
if anything it should be more like missing a slider end in standard, but since taiko isn't combo-based like standard is you can't really draw that comparison. i still think a score drop is enough, even a more harsh score drop as you are implying, but i don't think you should break combo from missing a finisher.
the score difference won't be that huge anymore as the accuracy portion won't be that much affected.frukoyurdakul wrote:
That's better but breaking the combo is still unfair. There will be already a huge score difference. The bonus points should be high I agree, but combo break? Not really because jackhammering doesn't exist in Taiko and yet you are trying to create (or force people to do it) this thing (for index finger players like me as an example). If you are trying to make Taiko similiar to Mania, just delete this "combo" thing, and everything will be fine.Loctav wrote:
I also have considered to suggest altering the way finishers work, Garpo came up with the idea of making them work a bit different, as in: whenever you hit a D only with one red key, you get a forced 100 (without the x4 bonus) and break combo like a sliderbreak, but you don't miss. This still accounts for actually hitting something, but seem to punish you with sliderbreaking and ignoring the double hit mechanic. I like that more than what it is now, tbh and I will try to bring that forward instead.