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posted
DISCLAIMER

At this point map was completely remapped. Earlier mods won't make sense.

10.11.2017

Shiirn wrote:

Sure, I can take a look.


Look into getting custom hitsounds. You've done okay with the default, but they just don't fit the borderline-techno-grunge that infected mushroom is doing here. I myself almost always play with custom hs from skins so it's really hard for me to do. Will look into it for sure.


Bummer
  1. 00:31:900 (3,1) - Swap new combos.
  2. 00:32:757 (2) - New combo.
  3. 00:35:328 (3,1) - Swap new combos.
  4. 00:36:185 (3) - New combo.
  5. 00:38:757 (3,1) - Swap new combos.
  6. 00:39:614 (2) - New combo.
  7. 00:42:185 (3,1) - Swap new combos.
  8. 00:43:042 (3) - New combo.
  9. 00:49:900 (6) - New combo. Yeah, ok. I figgured the pattern and it's indeed better
  10. 00:56:328 (1,2,3,4,5) - The variation on 2 just doesn't make sense here. It works better to have it just be a sharp shape of some sort, try a pentagon or something? Well since 00:56:328 (1,2) - are much loudeer sounds I've tried to make them stand out. Did a thing.
  11. 01:06:185 (4,5) - These notes are different in that the 5 isn't a "backwards movement from the slider's movement" like every other time you've done it this section. This should be fixed, yes. True, fixed
  12. 02:04:364 (4,5,6,7) - Feels like this should be closer for readability, as you usually don't have this much of a movement change after sliders here. Yea but I'm puzzled how to do it while retaining the rules for visuals I've set for this part. Moved stuff.
  13. 02:12:935 (4,1,2) - Same as ^, also, really really should remove new combo. It confuses the player's sense of rhythm. But muh aesthetics! Changed
  14. 02:13:471 - Add a new combo here, if you do what I said here^. It seperates the two notes. ok
  15. 02:58:900 (2,3,4) - I really liked what you were doing here with the stacked-1/2s into the spaced ones when the melody kicked in. Keep doing it, it's great!
  16. 03:43:042 (1) - this looks like a slider i'd make before polishing it. that's not a compliment; i suck at sliders xD Guess you've figgured I suck at them too. =D Will do smth
  17. The 1/3 sections are pretty alright as far as rhythm goes, but the patterns look really chaotic and unstructured and inconsistent. Generally speaking, chaotic is okay, unstructured can be okay, but inconsistent is right out. I'm not caring enough to go over every little bit of the sections and offer suggestions, but in general focus on improving the consistency of your jumps. I kind of agree that some parts are really lacking, perhaps will give them a rermap someday (It'd be like 4th one).
  18. That said, I was actually rather impressed with this map. You very clearly connected sounds into patterns and tried to map patterns to those sets of sounds, and tried to do so consistently. This is a rather rare skill nowadays in newer mappers, so I'm happily impressed. I was very satisfied with the rhythms you used and the ways you chose to interpret most of the map, even if the actual execution was rather clumsy. All you can really do is just keep mapping and keep learning. Yeah, clumsy is the word I'd use too especially talking about 1/3 part. But hey, it was the 1st map I've mapped seriously and through countless remaps I've grown as a mapper. Guess I'll move on to different map for now. I will bug you with feedback request once I'm satisfied with it =P
posted
Nice map man! :)
posted

Nemis wrote:

Nice map man! :)
Thanks!

I'm putting the map ranking on hold, while getting better at defining my concepts properly.
posted

direday wrote:

Nemis wrote:

Nice map man! :)
Thanks!

I'm putting the map ranking on hold, while getting better at defing my concpets more properly.
rank it or else
posted

AyanokoRin wrote:

rank it or else
I'd love to, but only when I'm finally happy with the results. I've heard this track about 1-1.5k times during this year alone while mapping (not even exaggerating). Getting a lil' bit tired of it. Were it any other artist, I'd given up long time ago xd
posted
mod, sorry for the long delay I was slacking off
General/Modding Assist
  1. is 03:56:756 - worthy of Kiai time? I think it's better to remove it and save it up for the 04:24:184 -


map
  1. 00:55:042 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3) - I think the transition to this build up could be more noticeable.
    00:53:328 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - has almost the same spacing as the build up which will make 00:55:042 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3) - not stand out as much. I would increase the spacing here.
  2. 00:55:042 (1,5,6) - visual stuff, you stack these but you partial overlap these 00:54:614 (5,2) - . both methods are good, but when you do with such method you should stick to it at least for the nearby objects. Switching between 2 methods can actually make your map look unpolished. If patterns are close to each other on the timeline, it's better to stick to one method. Consistency is key to organized map!
  3. 00:56:542 (2,3) - a little bit of nitpicking but please align them to make follow point straight pls
  4. 01:05:114 - I think the slider end should be clickable, the sound is really strong and you should emphasize it.
  5. 01:21:185 (1,3) - visual: I think you can find a better place to put 01:21:828 (3) - . could blanket it with the slider
  6. I think overall the map is cool but your visual game needs some work. It is very hard to make maps like this look organized (well this map is not wubby like other tech maps but still a little bit familiar) I'm not familiar with these types of genre and mapping in general, but from what I have seen those wub maps put a lot of emphasis on aesthetic.
  7. 01:33:400 (2,3,4,5,6,1) - visual: I think you can rearrange these circles into a shape of a triangle, it will play the same but now it will also "look" organized. Play well + Look good = awesome
  8. 01:36:828 (3,5) - these two sound much faster than 01:37:042 (4) - but are mapped the same. I believe it's better to differentiate these sliders, faster one maybe use some faster SV and 1/8 snap? at least for the 01:36:828 (3) -
  9. 01:37:900 (1) - add a green line here to silence the circle a bit? the music is really quiet here but your hitnormal is really loud.
  10. 01:55:792 (6) - I think mapping this as 1/4 slider and a circle sounds better here.
  11. 02:01:042 (5,7) - no need to be so close to the slider body, space it out a bit
  12. You seem to be partial overlap here a lot why not overlap 02:13:685 (2) - with 02:13:257 (6) - like you did with 02:12:935 (4,1) -
  13. 02:55:042 - The layer you're following is too dense for such a calm section imo. 1/2 gap everywhere I think sticking to the 1/1 rhythm here would fit better with much less density to highlight the build up at 03:08:757 -
  14. the song seems to continuously gain intensity but 03:31:256 (2) - suddenly shrink in spacing, I would move it further away
  15. 03:36:185 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - increasing the SV with the intensity is cool but you kind of forget to ramp up the spacing too, they usually go together (higher SV, higher spacing)
  16. 03:41:328 (1,2,3,1) - we're in a dangerous situation here, the guideline says buzz sliders should have 1/4 gap but you have 1/8. But your BPM is only 140 and the spacing between 03:41:328 (1,2) - isn't big so I think 1/8 is at least okay (maybe a little bit questionable but mostly okay!). However, I think 03:42:185 (3,1) - is unrankable, you should retract one reverse to make the gap 1/4 because the spacing is way too big(even atomosphere map has smaller spacing between buzz sliders)
    04:22:470 (1,2,3,1) - same as above


so this is what it feels like to mod a long map, I can see why people avoid modding my maps haha
Good luck!
posted
Guess this map will be remapped in not so near future, so I'm answering to your mod mainly as a way to learn things. Sorry about that :C

timemon wrote:

mod, sorry for the long delay I was slacking off np
General/Modding Assist
  1. is 03:56:756 - worthy of Kiai time? I think it's better to remove it and save it up for the 04:24:184 - I'm not a big fan of spamming kiai myself, but I halved the bpm for this section specifically for kiai flashes to be half as frequent. So it shouldn''t feel as intense as the next one.


map
  1. 00:55:042 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3) - I think the transition to this build up could be more noticeable.
    00:53:328 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - has almost the same spacing as the build up which will make 00:55:042 (1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3) - not stand out as much. I would increase the spacing here. Good point, will do in remap.
  2. 00:55:042 (1,5,6) - visual stuff, you stack these but you partial overlap these 00:54:614 (5,2) - . both methods are good, but when you do with such method you should stick to it at least for the nearby objects. Switching between 2 methods can actually make your map look unpolished. If patterns are close to each other on the timeline, it's better to stick to one method. Consistency is key to organized map! Yeah, visual aesthetics are the main problem atm, will be focus of next remap.
  3. 00:56:542 (2,3) - a little bit of nitpicking but please align them to make follow point straight pls It is almost pixel-perfect tho :O. Those things do trigger me aswell though
  4. 01:05:114 - I think the slider end should be clickable, the sound is really strong and you should emphasize it. True, I think I'll change rythm structure in 1st half.
  5. 01:21:185 (1,3) - visual: I think you can find a better place to put 01:21:828 (3) - . could blanket it with the slider yep
  6. I think overall the map is cool but your visual game needs some work. It is very hard to make maps like this look organized (well this map is not wubby like other tech maps but still a little bit familiar) I'm not familiar with these types of genre and mapping in general, but from what I have seen those wub maps put a lot of emphasis on aesthetic. Exactly what several experienced mapper told me. Will do. Eventually
  7. 01:33:400 (2,3,4,5,6,1) - visual: I think you can rearrange these circles into a shape of a triangle, it will play the same but now it will also "look" organized. Play well + Look good = awesome remap
  8. 01:36:828 (3,5) - these two sound much faster than 01:37:042 (4) - but are mapped the same. I believe it's better to differentiate these sliders, faster one maybe use some faster SV and 1/8 snap? at least for the 01:36:828 (3) - those sound exactly the same to me :O. In music there are 3 sounds tho, but I've decided to undermap a bit to make the section less intense
  9. 01:37:900 (1) - add a green line here to silence the circle a bit? the music is really quiet here but your hitnormal is really loud. Actually I didn't put much effort into hisoundind and such yet, as I figured I'll make sure the map is rankable and satisfying fisrt.
  10. 01:55:792 (6) - I think mapping this as 1/4 slider and a circle sounds better here. Troo
  11. 02:01:042 (5,7) - no need to be so close to the slider body, space it out a bit 'kay
  12. You seem to be partial overlap here a lot why not overlap 02:13:685 (2) - with 02:13:257 (6) - like you did with 02:12:935 (4,1) - Sure
  13. 02:55:042 - The layer you're following is too dense for such a calm section imo. 1/2 gap everywhere I think sticking to the 1/1 rhythm here would fit better with much less density to highlight the build up at 03:08:757 - I'll give it a try
  14. the song seems to continuously gain intensity but 03:31:256 (2) - suddenly shrink in spacing, I would move it further away remap
  15. 03:36:185 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - increasing the SV with the intensity is cool but you kind of forget to ramp up the spacing too, they usually go together (higher SV, higher spacing) remap
  16. 03:41:328 (1,2,3,1) - we're in a dangerous situation here, the guideline says buzz sliders should have 1/4 gap but you have 1/8. But your BPM is only 140 and the spacing between 03:41:328 (1,2) - isn't big so I think 1/8 is at least okay (maybe a little bit questionable but mostly okay!). However, I think 03:42:185 (3,1) - is unrankable, you should retract one reverse to make the gap 1/4 because the spacing is way too big(even atomosphere map has smaller spacing between buzz sliders) Yep, a bit too much. It's just 140 bpm 1/8 tho, compared to 170 of atomosphere. I want to give the most intense part of the buildup some difficulty.
    04:22:470 (1,2,3,1) - same as above same


so this is what it feels like to mod a long map, I can see why people avoid modding my maps haha I find it more interesting to mod marathons though, since they usually have more interesting concepts. Also modding ENH is usually extremely boring as mappers tend to make them as simple as possible. :D
Good luck! Thanks for the mod!
posted
Heyo!

You requested a mod but I just noticed you are planning for a remap so I'll have a look at this once its done!
Main things from quick playthorugh were 1/6 vs 1/8 ryhthm choices at stuff like 03:47:327 (4) - which the really strong 1/6 is ignored which played kinda odd and overall at some places it felt a bit really forced cluttered structered like 03:47:327 (4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - and at the intro too like 00:14:757 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - from a player perspective this was pretty hard to determine the sv changes since theres just a lot of cluttered approach circles and overlaps etc that makes this really hard to tell. Its prob alot easier if you get used to the song tho but for the more casual players a bit less clustered for these part would really help;

gl with the remap cya then! :D
posted
Queueue

Sorry for the essay, this mod had to be wordy. ;_;

Firstly, defining concepts is definitely something that needs addressing, so I'm glad you know that. You've got stuff here, but it's definitely not clean enough for the ranking standard. This is mostly due to how your themes are focusing so much on aesthetics that there is very little command on flow here. When you put objects so close together, there isn't much you can do with flow. It'd be much better to be decisive on how the player will move alongside your aesthetics, essentially pairing each aesthetic idea to a movement idea. That way your maps will be much more congruent in both movement and aesthetics.
I feel like going after these ideas will be far better than giving a mod, point after point, spacing after spacing. The map isn't fundamentally solid enough. A remap is most certainly in order in numerous locations.
There are workings of fresh ideas here, which is always a great start; let's touch on each section's ideas before we go any further;

  • Beginning to 00:30:614 -


  1. The first major impression you get is that this section is way too much. There is a lot of objects going on, but we're only just warming up to the map and a lot of stuff is happening outside of the player's control. If there's one thing I could say that would help out a lot, it'd be a healthy balance of 1/1 and 3/4 sliders. From a technical mapping standpoint, which applies mostly to the first half of the piece, having this section too active doesn't really make much sense because the structure doesn't support it. 00:31:042 - and onwards is the section of greater interest since that's where the bass is and I believe your mapping should show that.

    I'd do 00:10:471 (1,2) - as a 1/1 slider
    00:11:328 (1,2) - as a 3/4 and 00:11:757 (3) - two circles or as a 1/1 slider and a circle respectively. Depends on how simple you want it.
    This way you're getting the rhythmical focus on what matters, the downbeats, while still keeping the intensity in check.
  2. Next problem is the SV'ing here. This might come up later so I'll just say this now. I love SVs as much as the next guy, but there isn't much theory being applied to the readability of SV's. As a result the player doesn't have the most enjoyable of experiences, so I'll give a short rundown on SV changing readability.
    As osu players we like to cut information coming in to the bare bones, we don't have time to process anything too drastic. Because of this, sliders with different designs that indicate different slider speeds have to be amazingly well telegraphed, using previous examples to spur every player into finding out the gimmick. There's a lot of debate on how much the player can take, but that's not for us newer mappers to push the boundary of. Our goal should be to keep things nice and clean. If there isn't a theme that's instantly identifiable from previous exposure, we have to stick to what is universally readable.

    For slowing down, that's easy. Pretty much anything that is slowing down is readable as long as the player can roughly understand when the sliderend must end and the changed speed isn't anywhere less than or around 1/2 of the previous speed. This means that if the player can see the next object appearing before they play the slowed slider then they know that the slider must end before then. If they can't see the next object, they'll assume the slider will end before the next major beat. This usually devolves into "if the slider is on the 4th beat and I can't see anything, I probably have to click on the 1st beat of the next bar, so I'll just hold this slider until then".

    Speeding up... is way harder. Speeding up is much more intense in movement, and an unexpected speed up can leave the dirtiest of tastes in the player's mouth, even when playable. In the same way, having a speed up above or around double the speed is pretty much a no-go zone unless you absolutely know what you're doing. Even with this knowledge - this is the one that leads to most of the problems. As a result there's two concepts that mappers have learnt to apply so that the rhythm of SV sliders is hinted in-game. Don't mind me and pull up deetz' dreamless wanderer in the editor as an example, since this has both methods pretty much back to back. 01:51:397 - Familiarise yourself from here for the next ten seconds or so.

    1) Readability by Distance Relation

    The first 7 beats of this section all use the same SV. In that time, we get to see a decent number of 1/2 sliders. 5 to be exact. When we get 01:53:380 (4) - here, we know what this rhythm feels like. When we then see 01:53:811 (1) - immediately next to it our brain does some simple sight reading. These are both parallel, so we can easily see that 01:53:811 (1) - is just 01:53:380 (4) - with a little bit more at the end (illustration). As long as that little bit at the end doesn't also look like the 1/2 here, the player will assume it's a 3/4 slider, even if this slider is actually faster. Obviously the higher the SV difference, the more difficult it is to do, but the theory is the same until you reach a point where it just looks like a 1/1 slider at normal speed.

    2) Readability by Repeat Performance

    This is a lot harder to handle and doesn't come up as often, but you'll know when you get it right. Similarly to the previous example, we have a base SV and slider to work with. 01:55:190 (1) - is indisputably a 1/2 slider. When we play this rhythm 01:55:190 (1,2) - going into the next object, we induce counter-clockwise circular flow and this rotation lasts 3/4 (illustration). When we play the higher SV slider 01:55:535 (1) - we induce a clockwise circular flow and this also lasts 3/4 (illustration). What you can notice from this is that even though 01:55:535 (1) - is clearly a larger circle and therefore a wider turn, because of slider leniency you can follow the inside turn of the slider ring. Even if you make exactly the same sharp turn as before, it's very unlikely that you'll break. Therefore there is little effect on gameplay even though the SV is changing (illustration).

    wew that was a tangent, oh dear. I hope that was useful.

    Either way, that basically means that this section feels super slippery. jumping between 1.4 and 0.6 like this is really weird and gives us very little rhythmical information, so don't do it unless you've prepared a hella identifiable structure to it.
  3. Generally, this 00:24:614 (3) - slider speed seems pretty outlandish. You're building up tension here, but this would be a lot stronger with a more representative rhythm, plus a tighter focus on a different flow type rather than on slider speed.

    00:31:042 - to 00:56:757 -

  4. Going for a "dirty overlaps" theme is great, I love stuff like 00:31:042 (1,2) - this, but it's better to have a consistent position in which these dirty overlaps occur. For example, the most popular is exactly half way along the previous slider, so something like this. The half-way point is easily findable with the snap-divisor and work out roughly where the slider end should overlap the body of the previous slider. My personal favourite is just half-way like in the screenshot. This can also work for slider heads too! 00:32:328 (4,1) - example
  5. Yet again, some better command of flow would be good. Nothing in the movement is showing us that this is a 5* map. not saying that every section in a 5*
    map should be hard, but there should be greater control over how the player should move in these sections with less intense rhythm, especially when the music is trying to make this section intense with a large focus on bass frequencies.

    00:58:471 - to 01:25:685 -

  6. It's good that you're not focusing on exact slider-body overlaps here (Except when you did 01:08:328 (5,1) -), but you're making this idea a little too diverse too early. It would be best to stick to either 00:59:114 (4,1) - or 00:59:971 (4,1) - even if they're for the different intensities of synth.
    I recommend using the 2nd idea, but keeping it really modern and readable. Something like this would be perfect since it's a much bolder stylistic element. Hiding too much of the slider doesn't make it as visually striking, so most mappers tend to opt for showing around 1/5th to 1/6th of the body instead.
  7. 01:03:078 (2) - There are far more elegant solutions for this. Namely, all sorts of filters are being applied to these instruments, so aiming to play out the rhythm for some of them doesn't seem too optimal. Aim to use slider speed and minor shape variation here to get the desired effect for each, instead of giving something new rhythmically.
  8. 01:13:042 (1) - Bringing in curves here is a nice change, but you should still tie it to the previous aesthetic theme instead of doing something totally different. Going back to my example, I'd do something like this. Similar, but different enough to show something. The tone of the section can always be changed by more interesting flow between these and the other objects later.

    01:25:900 - to 01:39:614 -

  9. Nothing too out of place here mapping wise but it might be a little too simple for this section. The music is pretty intense here. The percussion is picking up with syncopated hihats and the synth is repeating the same rhythm every bar instead of every 4. I'd think this is an equally suitable kiai candidate if I didn't know any better.

    01:46:471 - to 02:27:507 -

  10. Rhythm isn't that bad, but flow could definitely use some decisive control. Also you shouldn't be sticking to 01:46:578 (2,3) - this overlap theme anymore. Try something different here, like this
  11. As you include variation, try not to stray too far from the original rhythm. 01:53:328 (1,2,3,4,5) - is fine.
    01:55:042 (1,2,3) - is not. Use this to be more congruent.
  12. Also try to keep some sort of visual basis for rhythm, both in spacing and flow. If you're going to have stuff like 02:12:935 (4,5,6) - 02:02:864 (5,6) - and 02:08:007 (5,1) - then they need to be tightly controlled in their positioning.

    02:27:614 - to 02:41:328 -

  13. Design is generally pretty good here. Some more command of spacing between sliders (02:28:471 (4,5) -) would be nice. This is 5*, we can definitely take it.

    02:41:328 - to 02:55:042 -

  14. For fade in sections like this when some instruments are still going, it's generally a lot better to continue mapping the simplest rhythm, and letting the incoming voice take up the active rhythm after a while. We can achieve this same effect by filling the break with 1/1 sliders until 02:48:185 (1) - . Then map the melody more and more actively until landing 02:55:042 - here, where you're practically mapping it purely melodically.

    02:55:042 - to 03:22:471 -

  15. This generic section is really good. You might want to consider better command of flow in 03:12:185 (1) - this combo and all the combos after it. Just because they're geometric doesn't mean that the flow is representative of the melody at all times.

    03:22:471 - to 03:42:935 -

  16. 03:32:757 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - would be much better as sets of triples. Example
  17. After reaching such high slider speeds 03:39:399 (2) - here, having 03:39:614 (1) - these stack so close to each other is a massive anti-climax. Our goal in this section is to build tension, and if you jump massively down a notch like this the effect is ruined. 03:39:721 (2) - should be at least 0.5x away from 03:39:614 (1) - to start with.

    03:43:042 - to 04:10:470 -

  18. This section is pretty well done. This is the best bit so far. 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - is such a good theme, so you need to make sure the other parts aren't over-clogging this idea. Simplify everything else that isn't your main theme, don't make it too complicated. Keep everything locked to the 1/6th timeline except your 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - .
    03:47:327 (4) - 1/6 not 1/4. Don't get too overzealous with the shapes either. Keep the 03:43:899 (1) - basic curve, and straight sliders. Use a more curved slider in only the most specific of situations where more accentuation is needed outside 03:44:756 (1,2,3) -
  19. 03:43:899 (1,2,3,4) - After entering with this, keep it up. Allow this section to be super clean - no overlapping sliders except for 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - your theme. So respace 03:45:613 (1,2) - 03:45:328 (3,3) - etc...

    04:10:470 - to 04:24:077 -

  20. 04:20:756 (1,2,3) - triples aren't as intensive as 1/4 slider jumps are, so swap these themes around.

    04:24:184 - to 04:51:612 -

  21. 04:24:184 (1,2,3) - Similar to last time, this symmetry is really good as a theme. You need to choose ideas that match this theme to elevate it instead of ideas that contrast it. Take out messy overlaps like 04:25:470 (3,1) - and fix blankets like 04:25:898 (1,2) - .
  22. Fill out your rhythms with filler rhythm. 04:29:327 (6) - should be a 2/3 slider here. 04:34:041 (4) - 1/3 slider here etc.

    04:51:612 - to 05:46:470 -

  23. For this section, The music is slowly losing tension. The rhythms should be dying away slowly. The oddities in flow should be getting less and less intense as you progress, and spacings should be decreasing slowly, but surely...
  24. Keep in mind that this section is very similar to 00:10:471 - here. So you'll want to use as many ideas from your beginning as possible, while also using the next theme below...
  25. 05:20:755 (1,2,3) - shouldn't be as intense as the kiai used to be (03:44:756 (1,2,3) - ). This is the dying breath of your theme during this calming down section. It shouldn't be so bold anymore. Don't let 05:21:184 - this note undermine your theme either. Never compromise for your main theme, it'll only weaken its basis.
    Something small like this 05:19:041 - Focus on the similar rhythm here too.


Other than that, you have some inconsistencies in your New Combos, I'm sure someone will point them out to you, but take a look yourself first.
Obviously your spacings need major work too, but reworking the spacings for a map with weak themes won't do much when it'll be remapped soon :S
The more I look at the map, the more it seems that the messy overlaps is caused by messy mapping, which is why it's critical that in breakthrough sections like 02:55:042 - here and on that you map without them, since you need that contrast to elevate the map's concepts and prove to the BNs that this is intentional.

Of course, gl with the map~
posted

Wishkey wrote:

Heyo!

You requested a mod but I just noticed you are planning for a remap so I'll have a look at this once its done!
Main things from quick playthorugh were 1/6 vs 1/8 ryhthm choices at stuff like 03:47:327 (4) - which the really strong 1/6 is ignored which played kinda odd and overall at some places it felt a bit really forced cluttered structered like 03:47:327 (4,1,2,3,4,1,2) - and at the intro too like 00:14:757 (1,2,3,4,1,2) - from a player perspective this was pretty hard to determine the sv changes since theres just a lot of cluttered approach circles and overlaps etc that makes this really hard to tell. Its prob alot easier if you get used to the song tho but for the more casual players a bit less clustered for these part would really help;

gl with the remap cya then! :D
Guess I chose the wrong way to make 1/3 more in line with first half in terms of difficulty =\. Will definetly look into rythm there. It was a very jumpy section with little to no sliders beforehand, so it seems like I've tried both extremes and none of them worked.
Thanks for your time!

Mykaterasu wrote:

Queueue

Sorry for the essay, this mod had to be wordy. ;_; That's the longest mod I've ever seen, and this map had a pretty long one already T.T. Big thanks for your time!

Firstly, defining concepts is definitely something that needs addressing, so I'm glad you know that. You've got stuff here, but it's definitely not clean enough for the ranking standard. This is mostly due to how your themes are focusing so much on aesthetics that there is very little command on flow here. When you put objects so close together, there isn't much you can do with flow. It'd be much better to be decisive on how the player will move alongside your aesthetics, essentially pairing each aesthetic idea to a movement idea. That way your maps will be much more congruent in both movement and aesthetics.
I feel like going after these ideas will be far better than giving a mod, point after point, spacing after spacing. The map isn't fundamentally solid enough. A remap is most certainly in order in numerous locations. Yep, that's exactly what I need.
There are workings of fresh ideas here, which is always a great start; let's touch on each section's ideas before we go any further;

  • Beginning to 00:30:614 -


  1. The first major impression you get is that this section is way too much. There is a lot of objects going on, but we're only just warming up to the map and a lot of stuff is happening outside of the player's control. If there's one thing I could say that would help out a lot, it'd be a healthy balance of 1/1 and 3/4 sliders. From a technical mapping standpoint, which applies mostly to the first half of the piece, having this section too active doesn't really make much sense because the structure doesn't support it. 00:31:042 - and onwards is the section of greater interest since that's where the bass is and I believe your mapping should show that.

    I'd do 00:10:471 (1,2) - as a 1/1 slider
    00:11:328 (1,2) - as a 3/4 and 00:11:757 (3) - two circles or as a 1/1 slider and a circle respectively. Depends on how simple you want it.
    This way you're getting the rhythmical focus on what matters, the downbeats, while still keeping the intensity in check.
  2. Next problem is the SV'ing here. This might come up later so I'll just say this now. I love SVs as much as the next guy, but there isn't much theory being applied to the readability of SV's. As a result the player doesn't have the most enjoyable of experiences, so I'll give a short rundown on SV changing readability.
    As osu players we like to cut information coming in to the bare bones, we don't have time to process anything too drastic. Because of this, sliders with different designs that indicate different slider speeds have to be amazingly well telegraphed, using previous examples to spur every player into finding out the gimmick. There's a lot of debate on how much the player can take, but that's not for us newer mappers to push the boundary of. Our goal should be to keep things nice and clean. If there isn't a theme that's instantly identifiable from previous exposure, we have to stick to what is universally readable.

    For slowing down, that's easy. Pretty much anything that is slowing down is readable as long as the player can roughly understand when the sliderend must end and the changed speed isn't anywhere less than or around 1/2 of the previous speed. This means that if the player can see the next object appearing before they play the slowed slider then they know that the slider must end before then. If they can't see the next object, they'll assume the slider will end before the next major beat. This usually devolves into "if the slider is on the 4th beat and I can't see anything, I probably have to click on the 1st beat of the next bar, so I'll just hold this slider until then".

    Speeding up... is way harder. Speeding up is much more intense in movement, and an unexpected speed up can leave the dirtiest of tastes in the player's mouth, even when playable. In the same way, having a speed up above or around double the speed is pretty much a no-go zone unless you absolutely know what you're doing. Even with this knowledge - this is the one that leads to most of the problems. As a result there's two concepts that mappers have learnt to apply so that the rhythm of SV sliders is hinted in-game. Don't mind me and pull up deetz' dreamless wanderer in the editor as an example, since this has both methods pretty much back to back. 01:51:397 - Familiarise yourself from here for the next ten seconds or so.

    1) Readability by Distance Relation

    The first 7 beats of this section all use the same SV. In that time, we get to see a decent number of 1/2 sliders. 5 to be exact. When we get 01:53:380 (4) - here, we know what this rhythm feels like. When we then see 01:53:811 (1) - immediately next to it our brain does some simple sight reading. These are both parallel, so we can easily see that 01:53:811 (1) - is just 01:53:380 (4) - with a little bit more at the end (illustration). As long as that little bit at the end doesn't also look like the 1/2 here, the player will assume it's a 3/4 slider, even if this slider is actually faster. Obviously the higher the SV difference, the more difficult it is to do, but the theory is the same until you reach a point where it just looks like a 1/1 slider at normal speed.

    2) Readability by Repeat Performance

    This is a lot harder to handle and doesn't come up as often, but you'll know when you get it right. Similarly to the previous example, we have a base SV and slider to work with. 01:55:190 (1) - is indisputably a 1/2 slider. When we play this rhythm 01:55:190 (1,2) - going into the next object, we induce counter-clockwise circular flow and this rotation lasts 3/4 (illustration). When we play the higher SV slider 01:55:535 (1) - we induce a clockwise circular flow and this also lasts 3/4 (illustration). What you can notice from this is that even though 01:55:535 (1) - is clearly a larger circle and therefore a wider turn, because of slider leniency you can follow the inside turn of the slider ring. Even if you make exactly the same sharp turn as before, it's very unlikely that you'll break. Therefore there is little effect on gameplay even though the SV is changing (illustration). I was going for

    I was going for readability by repeating the same sv on the same beats. Every second white tick (a.k.a. downbeat) uses the low SV. I further dug into this concept by training the player from here 04:51:612 (1) - and 'till the end, that downbeats have low sv sliders. Guess it wasn't clear enough, and the main reason is, as I think, unclear/messy visual design. I completely agree with both your points, I just think tying SV to the actual rythm (that is dense enough, repeats every beat or two) is a valid way to make it readable. My execution sucks tho.

    wew that was a tangent, oh dear. I hope that was useful. Sure was

    Either way, that basically means that this section feels super slippery. jumping between 1.4 and 0.6 like this is really weird and gives us very little rhythmical information, so don't do it unless you've prepared a hella identifiable structure to it.
  3. Generally, this 00:24:614 (3) - slider speed seems pretty outlandish. You're building up tension here, but this would be a lot stronger with a more representative rhythm, plus a tighter focus on a different flow type rather than on slider speed. yep

    00:31:042 - to 00:56:757 -

  4. Going for a "dirty overlaps" theme is great, I love stuff like 00:31:042 (1,2) - this, but it's better to have a consistent position in which these dirty overlaps occur. For example, the most popular is exactly half way along the previous slider, so something like this. The half-way point is easily findable with the snap-divisor and work out roughly where the slider end should overlap the body of the previous slider. My personal favourite is just half-way like in the screenshot. This can also work for slider heads too! 00:32:328 (4,1) - example
  5. Yet again, some better command of flow would be good. Nothing in the movement is showing us that this is a 5* map. not saying that every section in a 5*
    map should be hard, but there should be greater control over how the player should move in these sections with less intense rhythm, especially when the music is trying to make this section intense with a large focus on bass frequencies.

    00:58:471 - to 01:25:685 -

  6. It's good that you're not focusing on exact slider-body overlaps here (Except when you did 01:08:328 (5,1) -), but you're making this idea a little too diverse too early. It would be best to stick to either 00:59:114 (4,1) - or 00:59:971 (4,1) - even if they're for the different intensities of synth.
    I recommend using the 2nd idea, but keeping it really modern and readable. Something like this would be perfect since it's a much bolder stylistic element. Hiding too much of the slider doesn't make it as visually striking, so most mappers tend to opt for showing around 1/5th to 1/6th of the body instead.
  7. 01:03:078 (2) - There are far more elegant solutions for this. Namely, all sorts of filters are being applied to these instruments, so aiming to play out the rhythm for some of them doesn't seem too optimal. Aim to use slider speed and minor shape variation here to get the desired effect for each, instead of giving something new rhythmically. Yeah, those were a pain in the arse to deal with and it was the best combination of objects I could come up with. Looking back at it, udermapping and expressing those through passive objects (sliderbody) seems to be a better idea.
  8. 01:13:042 (1) - Bringing in curves here is a nice change, but you should still tie it to the previous aesthetic theme instead of doing something totally different. Going back to my example, I'd do something like this. Similar, but different enough to show something. The tone of the section can always be changed by more interesting flow between these and the other objects later. Actually a nice idea.

    01:25:900 - to 01:39:614 -

  9. Nothing too out of place here mapping wise but it might be a little too simple for this section. The music is pretty intense here. The percussion is picking up with syncopated hihats and the synth is repeating the same rhythm every bar instead of every 4. I'd think this is an equally suitable kiai candidate if I didn't know any better.

    01:46:471 - to 02:27:507 -

  10. Rhythm isn't that bad, but flow could definitely use some decisive control. Also you shouldn't be sticking to 01:46:578 (2,3) - this overlap theme anymore. Try something different here, like this
  11. As you include variation, try not to stray too far from the original rhythm. 01:53:328 (1,2,3,4,5) - is fine.
    01:55:042 (1,2,3) - is not. Use this to be more congruent.
  12. Also try to keep some sort of visual basis for rhythm, both in spacing and flow. If you're going to have stuff like 02:12:935 (4,5,6) - 02:02:864 (5,6) - and 02:08:007 (5,1) - then they need to be tightly controlled in their positioning.

    02:27:614 - to 02:41:328 -

  13. Design is generally pretty good here. Some more command of spacing between sliders (02:28:471 (4,5) -) would be nice. This is 5*, we can definitely take it.

    02:41:328 - to 02:55:042 -

  14. For fade in sections like this when some instruments are still going, it's generally a lot better to continue mapping the simplest rhythm, and letting the incoming voice take up the active rhythm after a while. We can achieve this same effect by filling the break with 1/1 sliders until 02:48:185 (1) - . Then map the melody more and more actively until landing 02:55:042 - here, where you're practically mapping it purely melodically.

    02:55:042 - to 03:22:471 -

  15. This generic section is really good. You might want to consider better command of flow in 03:12:185 (1) - this combo and all the combos after it. Just because they're geometric doesn't mean that the flow is representative of the melody at all times.

    03:22:471 - to 03:42:935 -

  16. 03:32:757 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - would be much better as sets of triples. Example
  17. After reaching such high slider speeds 03:39:399 (2) - here, having 03:39:614 (1) - these stack so close to each other is a massive anti-climax. Our goal in this section is to build tension, and if you jump massively down a notch like this the effect is ruined. 03:39:721 (2) - should be at least 0.5x away from 03:39:614 (1) - to start with.

    03:43:042 - to 04:10:470 -

  18. This section is pretty well done. This is the best bit so far. 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - is such a good theme, so you need to make sure the other parts aren't over-clogging this idea. Simplify everything else that isn't your main theme, don't make it too complicated. Keep everything locked to the 1/6th timeline except your 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - .
    03:47:327 (4) - 1/6 not 1/4. Those were meant to be a logical step further from 2/3 slider - 5/6 (or 4/6 and 10/12 since its the halftempo) Don't get too overzealous with the shapes either. Keep the 03:43:899 (1) - basic curve, and straight sliders. Use a more curved slider in only the most specific of situations where more accentuation is needed outside 03:44:756 (1,2,3) -
  19. 03:43:899 (1,2,3,4) - After entering with this, keep it up. Allow this section to be super clean - no overlapping sliders except for 03:44:756 (1,2,3) - your theme. So respace 03:45:613 (1,2) - 03:45:328 (3,3) - etc...

    04:10:470 - to 04:24:077 -

  20. 04:20:756 (1,2,3) - triples aren't as intensive as 1/4 slider jumps are, so swap these themes around.

    04:24:184 - to 04:51:612 -

  21. 04:24:184 (1,2,3) - Similar to last time, this symmetry is really good as a theme. You need to choose ideas that match this theme to elevate it instead of ideas that contrast it. Take out messy overlaps like 04:25:470 (3,1) - and fix blankets like 04:25:898 (1,2) - .
  22. Fill out your rhythms with filler rhythm. 04:29:327 (6) - should be a 2/3 slider here. 04:34:041 (4) - 1/3 slider here etc. I've already used filling like 04:24:612 (2,3) - those, so I figured it'd be a nice contrast here, since the melody supports it. On the other hand it breaks the flow, so I should've sticked to filler rythm, yeah.

    04:51:612 - to 05:46:470 -

  23. For this section, The music is slowly losing tension. The rhythms should be dying away slowly. The oddities in flow should be getting less and less intense as you progress, and spacings should be decreasing slowly, but surely...
  24. Keep in mind that this section is very similar to 00:10:471 - here. So you'll want to use as many ideas from your beginning as possible, while also using the next theme below...
  25. 05:20:755 (1,2,3) - shouldn't be as intense as the kiai used to be (03:44:756 (1,2,3) - ). This is the dying breath of your theme during this calming down section. It shouldn't be so bold anymore. Don't let 05:21:184 - this note undermine your theme either. Never compromise for your main theme, it'll only weaken its basis.
    Something small like this 05:19:041 - Focus on the similar rhythm here too.


Other than that, you have some inconsistencies in your New Combos, I'm sure someone will point them out to you, but take a look yourself first.
Obviously your spacings need major work too, but reworking the spacings for a map with weak themes won't do much when it'll be remapped soon :S
The more I look at the map, the more it seems that the messy overlaps is caused by messy mapping, which is why it's critical that in breakthrough sections like 02:55:042 - here and on that you map without them, since you need that contrast to elevate the map's concepts and prove to the BNs that this is intentional.

Dang, that was one hell of a ride. Everything I didn't comment on I fully agree with (how do I English? xd). It's really just what I needed: comments on general mapping concepts rather than pointing out specific things that don't make up entire picture that is the map or a section of it at least.
The thing about this map is that it was a throwaway to begin with. I've picked a rather mediocre but diverse IM track and tried a bunch of things I've found interesting in other maps. I've stick with it for far too long, but I kept learning in the process. The more I dig into concepts of tech mapping the more I realize I need more practice and, more importantly, constructive feedback/criticism just like what you did here. For now I'm moving on to the next map but I will, for sure, return to this map one day with new ideas and expierience to make a clean and defined map.


Of course, gl with the map~
Big kudos for this, helped a lot!
posted
Is it coming back any time soon?
posted

CircleChu wrote:

Is it coming back any time soon?
Not likely to be soon as I am working on more promising maps right now. I will surely remake it sooner or later with my newfound mapping knowledge.

You can check https://osu.ppy.sh/s/701730 though. It's also pretty "meh" map but much better than Drum n Bassa imo

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/733108 is still WIP but this one I consider to be really good compared to previous maps of mine. Both maps are of Infected Mushroom of course
posted
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