20:12 Bonsai: dude
20:12 Bonsai: how have I not heard of this map yet
20:12 *Bonsai is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1101611 Ludwig van Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata - 3. Presto Agitato [Striking Fire From The Heart Of Man]]
20:12 Fenza: idk
20:13 Bonsai: my life is rather busy rn but I'll try to help you with this as soon as I can / have motivation
20:14 Fenza: oh shit
20:14 Fenza: dude nice
20:14 Fenza: how did you find the map?
20:14 Fenza: just curious
20:14 Bonsai: question though, who plays this / where did you get the mp3 from / did you edit it
20:14 Bonsai: uh
20:15 Bonsai: someone in #german /np'd it and said "next Dragonforce map" lol
20:15 Fenza: mp3 is from synthestesia
20:15 Fenza: didnt edit it
20:15 Bonsai: gimme source
20:15 Fenza: already went over tags and such with iamkwan
20:15 Fenza: i dont remember the source
20:15 Fenza: was so long ago that i made this
20:16 Bonsai: a
20:16 Bonsai: do you have the log with KwaN or smth
20:16 Fenza: iye
20:16 Fenza: " think it's up to you. my recommendation is since the song wasn't originally from the game, so i'd rather leave it empty."
20:16 Fenza: its played by synthesia though
20:17 Fenza: music program
20:17 Fenza: was just a quick talk over forum pm's
20:17 Fenza: so it's saved
20:18 Bonsai: gimme those PMs, I wanna have all the links n stuff ^^
20:18 Fenza: aight
20:20 Fenza:
https://pastebin.com/k4Yf1z4S20:20 Fenza: just noticed i pasted backwards
20:20 Fenza: so read from down and up
20:20 Fenza: wasn't really much said
20:21 Bonsai: lol yeah
20:21 Fenza: are you a BN?
20:21 Bonsai: yeah
20:21 Bonsai: B-)
20:21 Fenza: oh
20:21 Fenza: cool
20:21 Bonsai: Tier 2 too B^)
20:22 Fenza: i have no idea what that means
20:22 Fenza: but sick
20:22 Fenza: xd
20:22 Bonsai: also I'm one of the few people who are proficient in timing so that's something that will happen
20:22 Bonsai: lol
20:22 Bonsai: uh
20:22 Bonsai: Recently BNs got split into two Tiers, the lower one can only bubble and the higher one can qualify too
20:22 Fenza: timing this was a brutal experience
20:22 Fenza: oh
20:22 Fenza: i spent many hours timing this
20:23 Fenza: i'd say it's correct
20:23 Fenza: mostly
20:23 Bonsai: yeah I could imagine, I'm not new to timing :^)
20:23 Bonsai: HAH don't worries, I've already spotted a few spots where it's too off ^^
20:23 Bonsai: but no worries
20:23 Bonsai: we'll get there
20:24 Fenza: i timed this over a period of a few months
20:24 Fenza: so there are bound to be things that are off
20:24 Fenza: already discovered a bunch of places that were off from mods
20:24 Fenza: and those are fixed now
20:25 Fenza: i have never experienced a BN taking the initiative before
20:25 Bonsai: ye it's nice to see that you're definitely very capable of hearing well bc most of it is very much on point, just a few more spots ^^
20:25 Fenza: this is really weird
20:25 Bonsai: HEH
20:25 Bonsai: #notallBNs
20:25 Fenza: tried finding BN's
20:25 Fenza: "im on vacation
20:26 Fenza: "im on a break"
20:26 Bonsai: I'm one of the very few ones that don't mod on request but pick maps themselves
20:26 Fenza: "exams, wont mod for 3 months"
20:26 Bonsai: ¯\_(:D)_/¯
20:26 Fenza: "i only mod my friends maps"
20:26 Fenza: :v)
20:26 Fenza: thats cool
20:26 Bonsai: :v)
20:26 Bonsai: just in case you wanna see some timing that's only 30 seconds long but took three hours anyways lol
20:26 *Bonsai is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1209186 bill wurtz - the high class stuff]
20:27 Fenza: i spent 30 minutes timing a 3 second map
20:27 Bonsai: woh
20:27 Fenza: oh this is interesting
20:27 Fenza: sounds a bit like doomsday to me
20:27 Bonsai: LOL
20:28 Bonsai: I recently have been informed that it's actually Paul McCartney
20:28 Bonsai:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUNtaFuq6RA20:28 Fenza: i dont actually have the thing i timed
20:28 Fenza: on this laptop
20:29 Fenza: but i can show u what i timed
20:29 Bonsai:
![Sad :(](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/56.gif)
20:29 Bonsai: yes
20:29 Fenza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgk4Cd7h6ak20:29 Fenza: i timed this
20:29 Fenza: and mapped it
20:29 Bonsai: oh
20:29 Bonsai: xd
20:29 Fenza: did you expect an actual song
20:29 Fenza: that was 3 sec long
20:30 Bonsai: well no but something that is more than just one buzz-sound lol
20:30 Fenza: i timed to the guys voice
20:30 Fenza: xd
20:31 Bonsai: but that's only like five 'beats'
20:31 Fenza: it had "ssss" sounds n stuff
20:31 Fenza: was weird
20:31 Bonsai: ^^
20:31 Fenza: btw
20:31 Fenza: what parts were off
20:31 *Fenza is editing [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1101611 Ludwig van Beethoven - Moonlight Sonata - 3. Presto Agitato [Striking Fire From The Heart Of Man]]
20:31 Bonsai: uh
20:32 Bonsai: mind if I just go through the map and point out everything that comes to my mind, like, irc-mod basically? ^^
20:33 Fenza: no
20:33 Fenza: that would be nice
20:34 Bonsai: ok so first thing that seems a bit wonky is your stream-structure, bc you're mostly starting with those 00:05:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - which visually emphasize every fourth note extremely but then you switch to basically not emphasizing anything at all with those like 00:07:011 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:35 Bonsai: and like 00:11:349 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - are not doing anything at all while 00:13:156 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - are emphasized again, and it just seems very random bc if for example the big white tick at 00:12:433 (1) - would already be emphasized too it would make sense musically
20:35 Fenza: i get what you mean
20:36 Fenza: i remapped most of the streams in the start after a mod
20:36 Fenza: it used to be three 1/4 into 1/4 slider
20:36 Fenza: to emphasize the three higher notes
20:37 Fenza: but after palytests and talking nobody could tell the difference that well
20:37 Fenza: and said it would fit better as a stream
20:37 Bonsai: well yeah object shoice is pretty irrelevant in that way, but what I mean is the vizual emphasizing that differs strongly even tho it's still the exact same musical pattern
20:38 Bonsai: it all being circles is completely fine
20:38 Fenza: so 00:05:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) -
20:38 Fenza: should be more like 00:07:011 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:38 Fenza: 00:08:457 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:38 Fenza: and this also
20:39 Bonsai: for example one that is nice structure-wise is 00:30:139 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - bc it starts by only highlighting the upbeats and then adds more and more highlighting to the downbeats too
20:39 Bonsai: basically yeah, but
20:39 Bonsai: I'm not saying it should be 100% identical bc that would make it very boring etc, I'm saying the structure kinda needs some more "logic"
20:40 Bonsai: bc rn it seems like all that is to it is "here I made it like this and then I stopped"
20:40 Fenza: 04:18:741 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:41 Fenza: i did the same thing here
20:41 Fenza: is that also bad?
20:42 Bonsai: well, yeah, kinda
20:42 Bonsai: I mean keep in mind that everything I say is subjective, not objectively bad
20:42 Bonsai: but like my point is
20:42 Bonsai: 04:18:741 (1,1,1,2,1) - really stick out
20:42 Bonsai: 04:20:548 (1) - not at all
20:42 Bonsai: and aesthetically that stream completely changes itself
20:42 Fenza: 00:05:566 (1,1,1,1) -
20:43 Fenza: i think these stick out
20:43 Bonsai: yeah ofc
20:43 Bonsai: it's exactly the same thing so it doesn't matter which one we mention
20:43 Bonsai: but why do you only make the first ones stick out and then stop
20:45 Fenza: i was trying to differentiate between the lower pitched sounds on these
20:45 Fenza: 00:05:566 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:45 Fenza: 00:07:011 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:45 Fenza: and to change the stream concept when it got higher pitched
20:45 Fenza: if that makes sense
20:46 Bonsai: well yeah but the thing is that your stream concept changes 100% at one spot, while the music is smoothly getting higher, so it doesn't really correlate
20:46 Bonsai: it's not like from 00:07:011 (1) - on it's suddenly much higher
20:46 Bonsai: it's evenly getting higher
20:46 Fenza: yeah true
20:46 Bonsai: that's why I praised that other one, uh
20:47 Bonsai: 00:30:139 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) -
20:47 Bonsai: that transitions very smoothly
20:47 Bonsai: from being very smooth to being very edgy
20:47 Bonsai: if that makes sense
20:47 Fenza: i get what i did wrong
20:47 Fenza: i could fix that in like 15 minutes
20:47 Fenza: throughout the map
20:48 Bonsai: well, no need to rush it ^^
20:49 Bonsai: I'll just move on to some other points ok=
20:49 Bonsai: ?
20:49 Bonsai: oh actually I have a small suggestion about those streams still
20:49 Fenza: alright
20:50 Bonsai: IF you wanna empohasize those final notes like 00:08:095 (1) - etc more, you could make it like at 00:35:741 (3,1) -
20:50 Bonsai: finishing the stream with a slider before the final note
20:50 Bonsai: bc that way, the final note needs special movement
20:50 Bonsai: and stands out
20:50 Bonsai: rn it's just the end of the streams and that's it
20:50 Fenza: i don't really like that
20:50 Bonsai: but that's completely taste, so if you don't like it feel free to ignore the suggestion
20:50 Bonsai: ok
![Grin :D](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/242.gif)
20:50 Fenza: i think it's fine for lower bpms
20:51 Fenza: or when you go from 1/2 into 1/1
20:51 Fenza: but having a 1/4 slider there i feel like just makes the player think there's a triple there when there isnt
20:51 Bonsai: hö
20:51 Fenza: if that makes sense
20:51 Bonsai: what sort of triple
20:52 Fenza: it just feels overmapped
20:52 Fenza: when it's a 1/4 slider
20:53 Bonsai: hm ok ^^
20:53 Fenza: did you find those timing errors?
20:55 Bonsai: ok, moving on: 00:24:597 (1) - being on the top there flows really weird bc in the whole previous pattern you have a constant up-up-down-down-up-up-.. movement but suddnely it's up-down-up which makes it feel pretty ngh in my opinion, so I'd uggest swapping it vertically so it ends like [http://puu.sh/vpz3B/28facc7bca.jpg this]
20:55 Bonsai: uh didn't pay attention to that yet
20:56 Bonsai: the thing is, if I check timing accurately then that will take me a lot of time that I don't have rn, and if I only point out a few I'll have to recheck the whole map again and again ^^
20:57 Fenza: i could do that sure
20:59 Bonsai: ok about 00:25:097 (1) - and many other sliders later on: the slidertick is kinda disturbing the pause there without landing on any note of the song, so you could just add a silent slidertick.wav and get rid of that
20:59 Bonsai: or do you want to keep it on purpose
21:00 Fenza: i think i'll just set it at 5%
21:01 Fenza: even if very minimal
21:01 Bonsai: ok but then make sure to raise the volume back again immediately afterwards bc setting evberything to 5% makes the sliderslide go silent too which is not allowed and also would sound weird ^^
21:03 Fenza: i just have the slidertail silenced
21:03 Fenza: if that's fine
21:03 Fenza: i dont want the sliderslide silenced
21:04 Bonsai: you mean tick? ^^
21:04 Bonsai: insteaf of tail
21:04 Bonsai: I mean silencing tail makes much sense too actually
21:05 Bonsai: but I was talking about the tick lol
21:05 Fenza: i dont feel like anyone cares about the tick
21:06 *Bonsai cares :,(
21:06 Bonsai: I mean the tick is basically as loud as the tail
21:06 Bonsai: so why silence tail but not tick
21:06 Bonsai: xd
21:06 Bonsai: both don't land on any sound
21:08 Fenza: ok
21:08 Fenza: did it
21:08 Bonsai: okidoki
21:08 Bonsai: moving on, at 00:29:509 (2) - you made this note / combo stand out bc of the additional hitsound, which totally fits since it stands out in the song too, but it's kinda weird that it's only emphasized in hitsounding but not in the map itself -> this would imo be a place where making one group of 4 stand out from the rest of the rest would fit very much, for example by using a significantly lower spacing or making a very harsh edge or whatever
21:10 Fenza: would increasing the spacing be ok?
21:10 Fenza: cause want high pitched sounds to be more spaced than low pitched ones
21:10 Bonsai: anything that makes it stand out works ^^
21:11 Fenza:
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/786953121:11 Fenza: did this
21:11 Fenza: that ok?
21:11 Bonsai: well I mean that's probably not very noticable but ok lol
21:12 Fenza: xd
21:12 Fenza: its much more spaced
21:12 Bonsai: yeah yeah whatever, it'll do ^^
21:12 Fenza: i want to keep the fluid motion
21:14 Bonsai: 00:35:108 (1) - basically the same issue but with NCing instead of hitsounding, this makes absolutely no difference in gameplay and when you're not looking at it in the editor you probably won't udnerstand why it's NCd either, so I'd recommend removing that NC bc making one single notes stand out is probably very hard / would involve sliders which wouldn't fit the map here
21:14 Bonsai: yeah ok
21:14 Fenza: alright
21:14 Fenza: removed it
21:15 Fenza: 01:11:276 (1) -
21:15 Bonsai: here's one timing-related thing lol:
21:15 Fenza: this is an accidental finish
21:15 Fenza: o
21:15 Fenza: all of them are
21:15 Fenza: hm
21:15 Bonsai: lol
21:15 Fenza: what about timing?
21:16 Bonsai: 00:37:924 (1) - this being timed as 1/1 is musically wrong, should be 3/2 beats long like 00:39:472 (1) - ^^
21:16 Bonsai: about the finishes n stuff, don't rush anything, like, I'm not gonna bubble this immediately when we're done here or whatever, I just wanna get the more major stuff out of the way first
21:17 Fenza: yeah true
21:18 Bonsai: I mean I feel like it would make most sense for me to finish monster-modding this thing as if I would bubble it but then wait until other BNs checked it too since not everybody is capable of qualifying so me bubbling would be a waste of that ^^
21:18 Bonsai: and as I said, whatever I say isn't objectively right/wrong either so continuin to get more mods n opinions is a thing I won't stop you from heh
21:19 Fenza: i agree with what you said so far
21:19 Fenza: atleast most of it
21:19 Fenza: also i don't know any BN's
21:19 Fenza: and most just ignore me
21:19 Fenza: or"on vacation" meme
21:19 Bonsai: welp
21:19 Bonsai: you'll have to get more than just me anyways
21:20 Fenza: i need 2 right
21:20 Bonsai: approval sets need 3 BNs
21:20 Fenza: for a qualify i mean
21:20 Fenza: 3?
21:20 Fenza: jeuss
21:20 Bonsai: bubble/bubble/qualify
21:20 Bonsai: I mean I can help getting others to look at it too probably, but what I mean is that for a map of this difficulty/lenght, only having very few people look at it is not that sufficient
21:22 Fenza: it would mean a lot
21:22 Fenza: i just don't have the connections
21:22 Fenza: i know other mappers through black vultures which is a metal osu group
21:22 Fenza: and thats about it
21:23 Bonsai: ok moving on: 00:42:351 - the patterning from here on seems very weird, as in, I don't see how that makes sense with the music because 00:43:796 (5,1) - are the same note in the same harmony etc etc, so I don't see why you seperated those, while I would definitely seperate 00:43:616 (4) - from that patterning because that's the downbeat where the harmony change happens so that would make sense musically
21:24 Bonsai: basically this whole part is also timed wrong because the timing signature is pernanently 1/2 off
21:24 Bonsai: since 00:43:616 (4) - etc are the downbeats, not some offbeat ^^
21:24 Bonsai: never heard of black vultures before lol, but yeah sure, I think I'll dedicate myself very much to this map so I'll also make sure to get it to Qualified when the time has come
![Razz :P](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/58.gif)
21:25 Fenza: its a small group
21:25 Fenza: :p
21:28 Fenza: actually not sure how i should map that
21:28 Fenza: thinking of separating all of them
21:28 Bonsai: mmmh lemme try coming up with something
21:28 Fenza: alright
21:28 Bonsai: oh you mean
21:29 Bonsai: basically what I'd do is only stack 00:42:351 (1,2,1) - 00:43:796 (5,1,1) - 00:45:283 (5,1,1) -
21:29 Bonsai: actually adding (3) at 00:43:796 (5,1,1,3) - 00:45:283 (5,1,1,3) - etc
21:29 Bonsai: basically going purely by pitch&harmony
21:32 Fenza: thats cool
21:34 Fenza: i did that
21:34 Bonsai: when it comes to following pitch and all of that stuff closely in patterning, Louis Cyphre did that quite well in this map, so in case you need inspiration or just curious in general make sure to check it out
![Razz :P](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/58.gif)
21:34 *Bonsai is listening to [https://osu.ppy.sh/b/837604 Franz Liszt - La Campanella (8 Bit Remix)]
21:34 Bonsai: alright
21:35 Bonsai: ok one more point that I wrote in the meantime, gotta go afk for a bit rn
21:35 Bonsai: ok next point anyways: 00:48:040 (1,2) - versus 00:49:769 (6,1,2,3,4,5,6) - is extreeemely different, the second one being much more intense than the first one, which doesn't make much sense with the music - I feel like you made the first one like that bc you wanted to emphasiez 00:48:754 - so here's a suggestion that would make this more balanced whiel still emphasizing it
21:35 Fenza: i know that map
21:35 Fenza: wish i was good enough to play
21:35 Fenza: what suggestion
21:37 Bonsai: oh lol didn't finish it
21:37 Bonsai: uh
21:38 Fenza:
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/786973421:38 Fenza: i did this to emphasize 2
21:38 Fenza: is that fine?
21:38 Bonsai: nunu the issue I have is that the second spot got like double as many notes as the first one
21:38 Bonsai: it's mapping background-notes that are there at the first one too
21:39 Bonsai: hence it feels weird that even though nothing really changes in the music, the map completely doubles its intensity
21:39 Fenza: oh
21:39 Fenza: 00:49:829 (1,2,3,4,5,6) -
21:39 Fenza: i should do this
21:39 Fenza: 00:48:040 (1,2) -
21:39 Fenza: here?
21:40 Bonsai: basically yeah, but if you do exactly that then that one piano-note won't be emphasized anymore
21:40 Bonsai: hence:
21:40 Fenza: i think thats good
21:40 Fenza: yeah
21:40 Bonsai: suggesting to kinda make it change flow/direction/whatever there by doing it some way similar to [http://puu.sh/vpBOt/bfeb505834.jpg this]
21:41 Bonsai: and n o w I gotta go afk for a long time bc I'm gonna eat dinner with family n stuff
21:41 Bonsai: so I guess I'll just end this irc-mod right here
21:41 Bonsai: and just poke you again whenever I feel like it
![Razz :P](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/58.gif)
21:41 Fenza: alright
21:42 Fenza: ill try applying what u said
21:54 Fenza: thanks for mod
21:55 Bonsai: :3
21:55 Bonsai: actually I'll edit the log into my forum-post rn and grab kudosu for that already hehehe
21:56 Fenza: haha
21:56 Bonsai: done 8)
22:01 Fenza: giving u in a sec
22:01 Fenza: just gotta apply and update first
22:01 Fenza: :p
22:01 Bonsai: doesn't matter ^^
22:04 Fenza: fixing the split up streams is so tedious
22:04 Fenza: xd
22:04 Bonsai: :c
22:04 Bonsai: uh but idk if you completely understood yet so lemme point out another example of what I mean
22:05 Fenza: i know what you meant
22:05 Fenza: its just that i did it alot
22:05 Bonsai: 00:55:286 (1) - isn't emphasized at all, even tho it is as strong as a sound (and hitsounded) like 00:56:009 (1) - which is appropriately emphasized, bu then there's 00:56:371 (1) - which is emphasized for no reason and then 00:56:732 (1) - which is not emphasized even tho it deserves it
22:06 Bonsai: ok lol, just making sure you completely understood it before you remap everything and then I go "still sucks, remap again" lol
22:06 Bonsai: ¯\_(:D)_/¯
22:06 Fenza: yes
22:06 Fenza: so what im doing
22:07 Fenza: is im removing the unescessary emphasizing
22:07 Fenza: by not using split up streams and "regular" streams in the same stream
22:08 Bonsai: yeah
22:09 Bonsai: but then again there's no need to not emphasize anything at all since that would get boring, but just emphasize in a structured way that still makes some sense with the music in some way ^^
22:10 Fenza: im working on it
22:17 Fenza: btw
22:17 Fenza: kinda curious
22:17 Fenza: what do you think of this pattern
22:17 Fenza: 06:27:481 (1) -
22:18 Bonsai: you mean 06:27:481 (1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1) - ? love it
![Grin :D](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/242.gif)
22:18 Bonsai: made me listen to 06:26:566 (1,2,1) - tho which is notably off timing-wise lol
22:19 Bonsai: (also wouldn't seperate that into three sliders and insteaf just use one but w/e)
22:19 Bonsai: (also would silence the slider-slide bc it's kinda irritating to hear that sound so loud here)
22:20 Fenza: actually yeah
22:20 Fenza: its not mistimed
22:20 Fenza: i think
22:20 Fenza: it sounds good to me
22:20 Bonsai: 06:26:566 (1,2) - are generally like 20ms too late
22:21 Fenza: ill time that later
22:21 Fenza: gotta go
22:21 Bonsai: actually the first few notes in that pattern arte all late too
22:21 Bonsai: ay
22:21 Bonsai: \o
22:21 Fenza: on a shitty laptop rn
22:21 Fenza: thanks again
22:21 Fenza: cya
![Grin :D](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/242.gif)
22:22 Bonsai: you're welcome, thank you for making such a nice map
![Grin :D](https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/images/smilies/242.gif)
22:22 Bonsai: (also kds pls aaaaaaa)
22:22 Fenza: thanks
22:22 Fenza: andyeee
22:23 Bonsai: (っ˘ڡ˘ς)