we are not satisfied by the current system in ranking beatmaps. hopefully, one day, this wish will be granted. players need more, players need to evolve. It is more fun if there is enough challenge.
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we want ranked ET beatmaps (osu!mania)
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Topic Starter
yes ... all ranked maps is too easy . we need more harder ranked maps (at least 8 ~ 10 stars)
Uh, okay. Who exactly are "we"? And I wish I had that kind of problems.
"we" = all the ranked 300 and higher player .. im sure there is alot player that is not satisfied with only IN2006 being hardest map
Topic Starter
the players, mostly the top rankers and former o2jam players. since i started this thread alone, i cant give you any names. well, chunsern agreed with me.
Topic Starter
okay thanks. 
after a certain point you start to run out of songs that can make super hard maps without being grossly overdone/mapped
4k has already reached that point unfortunately, other key counts don't suffer as much
4k has already reached that point unfortunately, other key counts don't suffer as much
Topic Starter
4k uses 4 keys only, so running out of songs that can make super hard maps without overmapping is not a question imo.
7k, 8k, and up is a different story. there are a lot of things we can do with more keys, experiment, make it fun, and make it harder without reaching the point of impossible.
7k, 8k, and up is a different story. there are a lot of things we can do with more keys, experiment, make it fun, and make it harder without reaching the point of impossible.
#ETProblems
I think the hardest part about getting ET maps is making sure that they actually play well.
Only a few people can actually tell whether something that difficult is fun or not, and that usually ends up being the same person who mapped it.
So an ET map mapped by, let's say Entozer, will be much easier to push forward since the person mapping it can most likely play it / explain how certain hard parts of the map worked.
If someone like me were to map a 9.00 star difficulty, it would probably play terribly since I can't actually keep up with that difficulty.
Only a few people can actually tell whether something that difficult is fun or not, and that usually ends up being the same person who mapped it.
So an ET map mapped by, let's say Entozer, will be much easier to push forward since the person mapping it can most likely play it / explain how certain hard parts of the map worked.
If someone like me were to map a 9.00 star difficulty, it would probably play terribly since I can't actually keep up with that difficulty.
hi charles
no, the problem is finding people that dare mod it since even charts that play well don't get to the amount of mods BATs ask for for looking at it, and don't dare even try rank it because of fear of retaliation
no, the problem is finding people that dare mod it since even charts that play well don't get to the amount of mods BATs ask for for looking at it, and don't dare even try rank it because of fear of retaliation
I just playtest my maps with halftime, the patterns play exactly the same and you can judge whether it plays well without being good enough to play it at its normal speed :v
I would say both of those are legitimate issues. The problem of ensuring ET maps play well is certainly legitimate. There is a limited number of players capable of actually playing ET maps, and out of those players only some of them actually understand what makes a good map. This is true at every skill level. Some players simply do not understand mapping. The numbers get even worse when you're looking for someone who not only understands mapping and can play an ET level map well enough to mod it and is actually willing to spend the time it takes to mod something. It's relatively easy to find someone who can mod the standard ENHI range of difficulties, but finding the required amount of mods for maps that go beyond the Insane difficulty becomes increasingly difficult.
I would say another dimension of the problem is motivation and how mappers feel about the system. ET players and mappers here seem to feel discriminated against by the rules and the ranking system at large. Whether or not this is intended doesn't matter, since it's about how these mappers and players perceive things. I know that if I was capable of making decent ET level maps I would not be trying to get them ranked right now, because I feel that the effort required to try to rank something of that difficulty is simply not worth it.
Personally, I don't feel that issues such as difficulty spikes or overmapping should disqualify ET level maps from being ranked the way they would on easier maps. As the difficulty of maps increase, mappers should be more free to create patterns that would be otherwise considered unrankable, because ET maps are targeted at the elite players who should be expected to be able to deal with essentially any pattern a mapper can think up, regardless of difficulty.
I would say another dimension of the problem is motivation and how mappers feel about the system. ET players and mappers here seem to feel discriminated against by the rules and the ranking system at large. Whether or not this is intended doesn't matter, since it's about how these mappers and players perceive things. I know that if I was capable of making decent ET level maps I would not be trying to get them ranked right now, because I feel that the effort required to try to rank something of that difficulty is simply not worth it.
Personally, I don't feel that issues such as difficulty spikes or overmapping should disqualify ET level maps from being ranked the way they would on easier maps. As the difficulty of maps increase, mappers should be more free to create patterns that would be otherwise considered unrankable, because ET maps are targeted at the elite players who should be expected to be able to deal with essentially any pattern a mapper can think up, regardless of difficulty.
Things I think that could help the mania ranking procedure improve:
- Isolated Mania ranking/mapping/modding queues with their own subforms.
- An easier accessibility to tools/guides to help mania players understand difficulty rankings beyond stars, mapping techniques, patterns, etc.
- A more streamlined ranking procedure that could help people map collaborate with difficulties to make the spreads more diverse i.e. things like https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3514886/ and https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/115773/start=30.
- A broader recognition of the legitimacy of the mania mode of osu! as more than just a joke mode amongst the general community.
- More BATs (We're working on this, and yes I'm aware of the challenges associated with being/becoming BAT)
- More people dedicated towards taking actions to rank harder beatmaps and actually doing something about it.
We have all these people from O2jam, LR2, DJ Max, and so forth that know about how things work, granted that osu!mania has it's own style (thankfully), but we need to act upon it.
#RankHarderMaps2014
#RanklZexlMaps
#RankRaikaMaps
#BATsPls
- Isolated Mania ranking/mapping/modding queues with their own subforms.
- An easier accessibility to tools/guides to help mania players understand difficulty rankings beyond stars, mapping techniques, patterns, etc.
- A more streamlined ranking procedure that could help people map collaborate with difficulties to make the spreads more diverse i.e. things like https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/3514886/ and https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/115773/start=30.
- A broader recognition of the legitimacy of the mania mode of osu! as more than just a joke mode amongst the general community.
- More BATs (We're working on this, and yes I'm aware of the challenges associated with being/becoming BAT)
- More people dedicated towards taking actions to rank harder beatmaps and actually doing something about it.
We have all these people from O2jam, LR2, DJ Max, and so forth that know about how things work, granted that osu!mania has it's own style (thankfully), but we need to act upon it.
#RankHarderMaps2014
#RanklZexlMaps
#RankRaikaMaps
#BATsPls
Now I'm sadAgka wrote:
hi charles
no, the problem is finding people that dare mod it since even charts that play well don't get to the amount of mods BATs ask for for looking at it, and don't dare even try rank it because of fear of retaliation
on standard too? because some of your maps seem like theyd still be pretty borderline impossible on halftime cough cough shut down everythingAqo wrote:
I just playtest my maps with halftime, the patterns play exactly the same and you can judge whether it plays well without being good enough to play it at its normal speed :v
what this has in common with the topic D:Riince wrote:
on standard too? because some of your maps seem like theyd still be pretty borderline impossible on halftime cough cough shut down everything
Topic Starter
Elementaires wrote:
#ETProblems
Topic Starter
Riince wrote:
on standard too? because some of your maps seem like theyd still be pretty borderline impossible on halftime cough cough shut down everythingAqo wrote:
I just playtest my maps with halftime, the patterns play exactly the same and you can judge whether it plays well without being good enough to play it at its normal speed :v
This is osumania, not osu standard
Then make it yourself and rank it if you think that making good quality ET maps isnt a problem.
Unfortunately, most of good mappers who can actually make pretty good 6-7* (8*+ maps are pretty impossible for 90% players from top100 unless it has easy symmetry patterns, because star rating looks only on density), dont care about ranking process.
Unfortunately, most of good mappers who can actually make pretty good 6-7* (8*+ maps are pretty impossible for 90% players from top100 unless it has easy symmetry patterns, because star rating looks only on density), dont care about ranking process.
#rankhardandfunmaps2015scarykidrow wrote:
Elementaires wrote:
#ETProblems
Even though i'm still a Novice player. ;w;
good to knowscarykidrow wrote:
This is osumania, not osu standard
so you want ET maps like o2jam private server most are ETchart? (based lv on 75+ = (8star)) ''just point to 7K''
NO!!
ET maps also need to care quality based on instrument. don't make fkin overmap
#ETmainproblemtogetrank
NO!!
ET maps also need to care quality based on instrument. don't make fkin overmap
osu!std also got ET maps, they are equal and not ranked tooscarykidrow wrote:
This is osumania, not osu standard
#ETmainproblemtogetrank
hear sound --> 5 notesExPew wrote:
#ETmainproblemtogetrank
1/16
my opinions
1,ET map is not always overmap.
you can choose the song has many instruments,sounds.
then you can make ET map.
2,it's ok to make challenge map for player
do you know "For Ultraplayers"?
in SDVX,it was made to kill pro SDVX player lol
and many players love this.
challenge is also good.
anyway,i love calm song,i make easy map always,so it meets easy maps.
more high quality ET map please
1,ET map is not always overmap.
you can choose the song has many instruments,sounds.
then you can make ET map.
2,it's ok to make challenge map for player
do you know "For Ultraplayers"?
in SDVX,it was made to kill pro SDVX player lol
and many players love this.
challenge is also good.
anyway,i love calm song,i make easy map always,so it meets easy maps.
more high quality ET map please
People focus on ET maps and skipped quality.
When your ET maps have quality,we will agree to rank.
Why even less ranked maps recently ?
You must think about the reason.
When your ET maps have quality,we will agree to rank.
Why even less ranked maps recently ?
You must think about the reason.
O2Jam has way too many bad ET charts. Now, I think that's mostly because the majority of O2Jam players now are ET, and only care about having more ET maps to play.
ExPew, I don't think overmapping is always bad. Some overmapping is fun, and plays good. Not all. But some. Overmapping IS rankable: t/125409/
ExPew, I don't think overmapping is always bad. Some overmapping is fun, and plays good. Not all. But some. Overmapping IS rankable: t/125409/
how to judge good or bad
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
Some maps just represent same sound with more notes (like 3 notes for one sound instead of 1 note) and I think it's okay
As long as map is not very overmapped and/or doesn't have ghost notes every 1/1 it should be okay to rank
Also @Tear, pepole want some challenge in maps, or they just get bored and go to other games
As long as map is not very overmapped and/or doesn't have ghost notes every 1/1 it should be okay to rank
Also @Tear, pepole want some challenge in maps, or they just get bored and go to other games
Guys, the thing with this is, as other people pointed out already, that these maps either lack in quality and that pretty much no one can point these errors out.
For my part, I dont know shit about mania mapping or playing, but Iam sure that 11 star maps (such as the kakuzetsu) are pretty much overmapped. Like, wtf is >this< supposed to be. It basically looks like >this< to me, if one would compere it to std. Random shit scattered across the map. It's possible to hit, but Iam sure you wont, unless you play this map many many times.
Who is supposed to give these maps a proper check if even 50% speed would confuse the hell out of them. Things get unranked for being too difficult on one part (-> Jenny's FLOWER for example), even though they look good and playable, so how are these extra difficult mania maps supposed to pass the test?
If you want to play overmapped and bad-quality maps, go ahead and map your own, play unrankeds or go to another mania game.
Why dont you guys try to get into modding yourselves? None of these will ever see the light of the ranked section, unless you find a way to properly mod these diffs.
For my part, I dont know shit about mania mapping or playing, but Iam sure that 11 star maps (such as the kakuzetsu) are pretty much overmapped. Like, wtf is >this< supposed to be. It basically looks like >this< to me, if one would compere it to std. Random shit scattered across the map. It's possible to hit, but Iam sure you wont, unless you play this map many many times.
Who is supposed to give these maps a proper check if even 50% speed would confuse the hell out of them. Things get unranked for being too difficult on one part (-> Jenny's FLOWER for example), even though they look good and playable, so how are these extra difficult mania maps supposed to pass the test?
If you want to play overmapped and bad-quality maps, go ahead and map your own, play unrankeds or go to another mania game.
Why dont you guys try to get into modding yourselves? None of these will ever see the light of the ranked section, unless you find a way to properly mod these diffs.
I want to play harder maps and I DO mod them if I have a chance to do so. I also try to map tem decently. That doesn't really change a thing tho.
Also I don't think anyone wants 11 star maps ranked because they're obviously retardedly hard. This topic is more about maps of difficulty similar/slightly harder then current top rated maps such as Thunderbolt or IN2k6, and there are good quality maps that could be ranked (like Chaosmaid, which even appeared in MWC Finals), which do have a full spread, but they don't get attention they need and slowly die
Also I don't think anyone wants 11 star maps ranked because they're obviously retardedly hard. This topic is more about maps of difficulty similar/slightly harder then current top rated maps such as Thunderbolt or IN2k6, and there are good quality maps that could be ranked (like Chaosmaid, which even appeared in MWC Finals), which do have a full spread, but they don't get attention they need and slowly die
Tear wrote:
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
I'd kindly recommend playing an instrument if your main concern is being able to play music. This is a rhythm game, not an instrument simulator.
Are you implying high density maps aren't "good" simply because you can't tell what specific sound every single note is representing? If that's the case I'd like to remind you that your criterias as to what makes a good map are heavily biased by your own skill and your previous exposures.
Skill
This is a game first and foremost. You should be having fun when playing a game, that much is elementary. And as people get better it's only normal that harder maps become their standard. New players will look at the maps that you currently think are awesome and perfect and all they'll see is simply how much more dense and difficult they are compared to what they play, the exact same thing you're currently seeing on maps above your own level. People on the overjoy scales and triple digit o2jam have fun and hold their own opinions as to what makes a good map at those levels. And surprise surprise, you'll find their criterias to be completely different.
Exposure
Did anyone notice how the majority of the LR2 community believes over half the maps here are complete shit and o2jam is nothing but a joke? Of course they're not right, but they're also not completely wrong. They've been exposed to a certain type of charting and have grown attached to it. The foreign o2jam'esque style mania has picked up (LNs and SVs galore) is simply not amusing to them because what they look for in a chart is simply not present. Since LR2 has the bigger community, is it then safe to generalize mania's map pool as bad? Absolutely not. The same thing is also happening the other way around. A large majority of this playerbase that tries the bms converts labels them as "Bullshit Mania Spam" (lol)
What is mapping anyways?
Personally, I like to think of mapping or charting as a form of art. There's nothing wrong with doing anything in your creation, the only consequences is the more obscure creations will yield less affection. Usually, in the world of arts, it's the people that created something special to express themselves that makes something exceptional, and less the ones that makes something within the boundaries of a set of rules and standards to impress others.
Where am I going with this?
This "quality" everyone is talking about is completely subjective in this field where everyone finds different things "fun". If people had fun playing it, even if it's only a few, the map has every right to be considered a product of quality no matter how bad, unpolished or ridiculous you might believe it is. Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.
Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
Thank You Based Drace
That's just how it is though. If we had all the maps ranked that others enjoy, then we'd just have a huge mess full of random shitmaps like that disconnected #blamejonimay in the ranked area. It is good for what it is, being a hard map that's completely overmapped and fun to some people. But now what? Just because a map is fun, doesnt mean that it is a rankable map. Ghostnotes, parts that are unneccessarily (is that a word?) difficult, etc (insert unrankable issue here).Drace wrote:
Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.
Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
I think that you can partially compare it to the process of gamedevelopment.
Simple: When something's released to the public, the dev want the game to be as polished and as bugfree as it can get so that everyone can enjoy it.
Rather specific example/comparison
Imagine the devs of Ocarina of Time knew about the Infinite Sword Glitch or the Wrong Warp. The glitches themselves are fun to play with, since they breaks the game here and there. This opens up new possibilities for the player to have fun with the game. Cool. But this isnt what they want to have in their official release for the game. They want it playable for any player that just want to hop in and enjoy a bugfree game.
Then, more hardcore gamer found this (the bugs, glitches) and now have their fun with it, they speedrun and enjoy the game this way. The unintended way.
Now, compare this to the ranking process.
The map is damn difficult with maybe fun, but unrankable patterns (-> Bugs/Glitches). The hardcore gamers (-> high ranks) can enjoy it the more difficult/"unintended" way (-> unmodded and unranked diff) while the casuals can enjoy the "normal" game (-> modded and ranked diff)
Then, more hardcore gamer found this (the bugs, glitches) and now have their fun with it, they speedrun and enjoy the game this way. The unintended way.
Now, compare this to the ranking process.
The map is damn difficult with maybe fun, but unrankable patterns (-> Bugs/Glitches). The hardcore gamers (-> high ranks) can enjoy it the more difficult/"unintended" way (-> unmodded and unranked diff) while the casuals can enjoy the "normal" game (-> modded and ranked diff)
Also, just because these maps cant get ranked yet, doesnt mean that you shouldnt map them. I cant see anything that keeps you from mapping these diffs. If you find people that like to play your map - cool, you got what you wanted.
There are many mappers that like to map extra difficult maps only. People like CRN, RLC, galv (etc, these were the first names that came to my mind) and others have huge lists of unranked beatmaps - and people like them.
Your analogy would be correct if it weren't for two crucial things.
First off, this is a community driven game that's always evolving. Not a corporate game with a single and final release. The community can please themselves much better than the higher ups ever can, this is why people enjoy these kinds of games. A game like this is always about it's future, while a game like the Zelda series has no future other than waiting for it sequels.
Second, the people in charge are claiming they're limiting their ranking to "quality". But like i tried to show in my previous post, that matter is entirely subjective. Their ideas as to what constitute to a map's quality is FAR from the majority, it's only their own opinion. Mania's actually a big minority in the realm of VSRGs, and even within the community we see debates like this very thread with people not satisfied with the current map pool. It's also worth mentioning that this is only place where such unsatisfactions are taken to this extreme.
So can you really say that the map pool is of "quality" material when we keep seeing people whining about it? And that's what I lead to in my previous post; a map's true quality is how fun it is to play to the people of that skill level and general exposure. Not if it followed a certain set of arbitrary rules and requirements. I'm sure everyone here can think of maps that despite being made "like the higher ups wanted", were completely unmemorable, devoid of personality, and generally not fun to play.
tl;dr, If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then overmapping was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Expand your horizons, variety is a great thing.
First off, this is a community driven game that's always evolving. Not a corporate game with a single and final release. The community can please themselves much better than the higher ups ever can, this is why people enjoy these kinds of games. A game like this is always about it's future, while a game like the Zelda series has no future other than waiting for it sequels.
Second, the people in charge are claiming they're limiting their ranking to "quality". But like i tried to show in my previous post, that matter is entirely subjective. Their ideas as to what constitute to a map's quality is FAR from the majority, it's only their own opinion. Mania's actually a big minority in the realm of VSRGs, and even within the community we see debates like this very thread with people not satisfied with the current map pool. It's also worth mentioning that this is only place where such unsatisfactions are taken to this extreme.
So can you really say that the map pool is of "quality" material when we keep seeing people whining about it? And that's what I lead to in my previous post; a map's true quality is how fun it is to play to the people of that skill level and general exposure. Not if it followed a certain set of arbitrary rules and requirements. I'm sure everyone here can think of maps that despite being made "like the higher ups wanted", were completely unmemorable, devoid of personality, and generally not fun to play.
tl;dr, If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then overmapping was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Expand your horizons, variety is a great thing.
Also modding process exists so those "overmapped" maps can be as good and polished as possible.
Drace is absolutely 100% correct. Mapping is a form of creative expression much the same as any other. Everyone has their own perception of 'quality'.
I look at ranking as a way to accept or endorse a map. I look at it as a way for the community to say "here are maps that we think are worth your time to play". The problem here is that what gets ranked ends up being maps that try to please as many people as possible without trying to do anything new or interesting. Sure, they're playable, and at least not awful, but it's like comparing pop music to jazz. Regardless of whether or not you understand what's happening musically in jazz, you can't deny that there's more creativity in jazz than pop music. Music has lots of 'rules' too, and what does jazz do? It ignores most of those rules. Sometimes it ends up sounding bad to a lot of people. I'm sure not everyone likes Naked City, but John Zorn, the saxaphonist and songwriter of this stuff is a well respected jazz artist anyway, and still gets to sell his music and tour. Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
I look at ranking as a way to accept or endorse a map. I look at it as a way for the community to say "here are maps that we think are worth your time to play". The problem here is that what gets ranked ends up being maps that try to please as many people as possible without trying to do anything new or interesting. Sure, they're playable, and at least not awful, but it's like comparing pop music to jazz. Regardless of whether or not you understand what's happening musically in jazz, you can't deny that there's more creativity in jazz than pop music. Music has lots of 'rules' too, and what does jazz do? It ignores most of those rules. Sometimes it ends up sounding bad to a lot of people. I'm sure not everyone likes Naked City, but John Zorn, the saxaphonist and songwriter of this stuff is a well respected jazz artist anyway, and still gets to sell his music and tour. Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
really that many people hate on those bms converts o.o? but yeah i agree personally that overmapping is good to a degree, it can make the map more enjoyable if its based on the feel of the map rather then the individual notes at higher levels unless you want to be playing purely speedcore to rank eventually... the important thing is that general people at that level and in that area of gameplay say lr2 vs o2jam style mapping find the song fun to play and find that the timing of the notes are done to a point where the map is comfortably playable. there is a degree of discomfort that i would allow, some songs that specifically target stamina from stepmania for example
although this may make modders and people who make maps ranked more difficult, it would definitely improve the games ranking system
although this may make modders and people who make maps ranked more difficult, it would definitely improve the games ranking system
lold badly about thisDrace wrote:
Tear wrote:
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:
Agreeing to the subjectivity of 'quality' of mapping based on groups or divisions of the VSRG masses, what is the best way to map ExTra for mania?
I personally find lZenxl's style to be a capable way of mapping that can lead to more difficult ranked beatmaps, especially since PROGUY deemed his Diatonicism difficulty for Achromat rankable (with some modding).
We can rank challenging beatmaps, and often the border of 'overmapping' can be pushed to an extent with the target group in mind. Not ridiculously, or M.A.M.A.'s Extra difficulty would be harder than IN2k6 right now.
But what constitutes as an appropriate rankable ExTra beatmap?
Entozer is very popular in the osu!mania community and he maps very high difficulty maps such as Thantos or Music Revolver, etc.
So should we be pushing to rank maps with styles similar to Entozer?
What exactly makes ET osu!mania ranked maps osu!mania styled anyway? Intersect Thunderbolt Remix and AiAe and over 5.5+ star maps are what we're looking at.
Personally, I've noticed a lot more recently as I've reached new heights of performance that I can appreciate the patterns in the maps I'm playing much more. Bangin' Burst Level 16 being a good example. So I believe the ET mania players have the best say in what we should be ranking at that difficulty, since after all, this is a community driven game.
I'd like to get challenging maps ranked myself (see Xross Infection: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/248006)
But I'm not sure if the patterns I'm creating are 'appropriate' or if I'll get shot down by BATs considering this level is too much for me to pass.
Furthermore, it's inevitable that ranking more of these significantly challenging maps (6+ stars) will get more ET players to play osu!mania more actively, so how should we consider that in our criterion?
Agreeing to the subjectivity of 'quality' of mapping based on groups or divisions of the VSRG masses, what is the best way to map ExTra for mania?
I personally find lZenxl's style to be a capable way of mapping that can lead to more difficult ranked beatmaps, especially since PROGUY deemed his Diatonicism difficulty for Achromat rankable (with some modding).
We can rank challenging beatmaps, and often the border of 'overmapping' can be pushed to an extent with the target group in mind. Not ridiculously, or M.A.M.A.'s Extra difficulty would be harder than IN2k6 right now.
But what constitutes as an appropriate rankable ExTra beatmap?
Entozer is very popular in the osu!mania community and he maps very high difficulty maps such as Thantos or Music Revolver, etc.
So should we be pushing to rank maps with styles similar to Entozer?
What exactly makes ET osu!mania ranked maps osu!mania styled anyway? Intersect Thunderbolt Remix and AiAe and over 5.5+ star maps are what we're looking at.
Personally, I've noticed a lot more recently as I've reached new heights of performance that I can appreciate the patterns in the maps I'm playing much more. Bangin' Burst Level 16 being a good example. So I believe the ET mania players have the best say in what we should be ranking at that difficulty, since after all, this is a community driven game.
I'd like to get challenging maps ranked myself (see Xross Infection: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/248006)
But I'm not sure if the patterns I'm creating are 'appropriate' or if I'll get shot down by BATs considering this level is too much for me to pass.
Furthermore, it's inevitable that ranking more of these significantly challenging maps (6+ stars) will get more ET players to play osu!mania more actively, so how should we consider that in our criterion?
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
If you're going to ask about Entozer stuff, this is pretty relevant: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/235994 8.46 stars according to the page. Entozer says he can't even pass it himself thanks to the HP drain. Or how about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178027 8.80 stars on the EX diff. Or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/156500 at 10.80. If these all had proper difficulty spreads, are these considered acceptable? I can't pass any of these, but I think they're all good maps in terms of the patterns.
If you're going to ask about Entozer stuff, this is pretty relevant: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/235994 8.46 stars according to the page. Entozer says he can't even pass it himself thanks to the HP drain. Or how about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178027 8.80 stars on the EX diff. Or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/156500 at 10.80. If these all had proper difficulty spreads, are these considered acceptable? I can't pass any of these, but I think they're all good maps in terms of the patterns.
This and close this topic lol.Bobbias wrote:
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
The only thing I hate from complainers is that they think that BATs wont allow to rank "ET maps". Find ma a rule in ranking criteria where its saying that you cant rank harder maps. The main reasons why "ET maps" are not ranked is that quality of those maps are sh it OR creator doesnt care about ranking his map, problem solved.
And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
pointless response to a pointless post
And does that mean you disagree with this?
You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.Tidek wrote:
And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
And does that mean you disagree with this?
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
Honestly there simply isn't way to accomplish what the people in this thread are asking for with the current ranking system. Everything is wrong with it. It's a system that encourages biases and gives power to the wrong people. It gives attention to the wrong maps and the system encourages pointless mods which has destroyed more maps than it helped.Tristan97 wrote:
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:
[...]
A good system shouldn't coast of the biases of the BATs and modders. They should actually have no say at all in the matter, the community can make their own decisions.
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.Drace wrote:
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.Tidek wrote:
And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
And does that mean you disagree with this?If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
EDIT: Forgot about one thing, the only exception I respect is keysounded map.
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me
lol nice effort I guess
There's literally nothing I can reply to that since there's no argument. You can't just state something isn't a style purely because you feel like it and not say why. People can make them, people play them, people can enjoy them. Yes it can be style pure and simple, and you don't like it. And it's completely acceptable.
But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.
Ever heard of a delay chart? Doubt it.
And worst of all you avoided the main point of my reply to you. Should of done the same to you but meh.
And does that mean you disagree with this?Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.
Also finally you got a response for this:
But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.
Also finally you got a response for this:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
And like I said, that's YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter here is there's a considerable amount of people in this playerbase that share the opposite opinion. Can you not think about anyone other than yourself? There is no "right" or "wrong" in a dilemma governed by subjectivity. The best you can do is accommodate to satisfy the most people.
What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.
And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/
What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.
And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/