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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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Seph
why does airman give more with HDHRHT than an actual nomod SS? please explain.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Seph wrote:

why does airman give more with HDHRHT than an actual nomod SS? please explain.
Link to example, please (the user with the HDHRHT rank)? If that's the case then I'll adjust it. That's not supposed to happen.
Seph
mine and Dark Diego

just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
iiyo

Tom94 wrote:

Sabi wrote:

How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat

edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps. :P
You dodged my question and all these maps are insanely hard, they are top tier maps, theres a strong reason why only 10 people have fc'd a certain map for instance why is kemu life game worth nothing even tho it's nearly impossible and you have to get lucky https://osu.ppy.sh/u/set44599 why isn't kemu life game ( https://osu.ppy.sh/b/187501?m=2 ) on his top performances if he holds the only FC and SS another case is nomod, why is HD weighted like a anchor?

PS: I'm not trying to hold torches and go after you, I know you don't play CtB but.. this ranking system needs a lot of work and you seem to think it's fine or something.
DeathXHunter
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
DeletedUser_500696

Sabi wrote:

How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat

edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
I agree with fabi, don't talk smack about my brethren please. Also, there is a huge range of ctb styles and preferences which cannot possibly be accounted for in a single algorithm (reliable player, HD player, HD+HR, spin pro, w/e). Don't judge others based on your style solely :)
iiyo

DeathXHunter wrote:

Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.
DxNightwave
AUUUUUUUUUU
DeathXHunter

Sabi wrote:

DeathXHunter wrote:

Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.

Zak

Sabi wrote:

I can care less about ranking
I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately.

EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.

Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.

Here's a good example:


I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
iiyo
"I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately."

brb fapping


"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."

go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
Tenshichan
Oh damn, every time this fighting about ranking and pp and who is better and who is not. Just stop that already.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
Spectre

Zak wrote:

EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.

Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.

Here's a good example:


I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
iiyo

TenguKing9 wrote:

Zak wrote:

EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.

Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.

Here's a good example:


I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Agreed.
Seph

Sabi wrote:

go berzerk is hardest song
ha

hahaha

ahahahahahaha



just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
iiyo

Seph wrote:

Sabi wrote:

go berzerk is hardest song
ha

hahaha

ahahahahahaha



just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
if you can't sense my grammar in the sentence of what I said, and my sarcasm then you are really foreign.

"just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp."

The ranking system is corrupt, how you may ask? I just jumped 100 ranks in 1 day by playing bullshit easy ctb maps. See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Seph

Sabi wrote:

See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.


thanks fabi for the wonderful image
119410501

Sabi wrote:

See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
inb4 no
VelperK

Sabi wrote:

See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.

Drafura
Please guys stay in the topic witout the troll/taunt/flame things... You're just making the things harder to fix for Tom.

That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.

Thank you.
Salamat
...
-Ryuujii-

salamat wrote:

When ppv2 was in progress, I thought I couldn't live without PP... now I feel it shouldn't belong anymore.

That being said, I know how hard it is to establish and maintain a fair system, that why I'm not doing anything about it.
then why are you posting here
iiyo
Had a long talk with a wize korean, he told me that I shouldn't be mad, and I thought about it for awhile and I realize that I can't be friends with everyone and some people are just scumbags towards you, so to be honest, sorry for bringing my problems and my anger in the forums and not to better the pp system, I am truly sorry.

-Sabi/Nekoua


PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
Kingkevin30
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.


https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2

this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
iiyo

Kingkevin30 wrote:

i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.


https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2

this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
From what I've noticed after getting to rank 99 from 310 was. Droplets mean nothing and spinners mean nothing, and you don't even have to fully FC a map. Trust me, I did over 40-60 CtB maps and other maps yesterday. A strong example is this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/159792?m=2 I didn't FC it, but I lost 10 pp normally if I did FC it, I think I got trolled and droped near the end or something. but look at my pp gain from (mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2427813) to (Yukiteru Amano: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1894511).

PS: S vs SS is 1 PP.
Topic Starter
Tom94

Kingkevin30 wrote:

i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.


https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2

this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
The "weighting" doesn't have anything to do with consistency. Only by how far up the score is in your best performance list. It's simply there to ensure you can't keep getting pp for equally good scores.
He Ang CTB
Just bumping in to make some statements :(

> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~

> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.

> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".

> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed :D

> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~

> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.

> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?

These are all my thoughts for now :oops: Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)o
lineqtxz
i have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
Seph

lineqtxz wrote:

i have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
I'm guessing pp calculation for HR plays aren't weighted that much yet? I have some AR9 HDHR plays and they don't give that much. And waiting for the airman fix x3 that would give me some more pp if it does
VelperK
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it

wait...

im not :O
Tachibana

VelperK wrote:

i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it

wait...

im not :O

you're just unhappy because you cant beat exgon ;)

on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
VelperK
sigh
Laharl

-Tachibana- wrote:

on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
What for?
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
119410501

-Tachibana- wrote:

on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
I can make you the best pp wiki:
Check users with less than 20 ranks above you's best performance and so on until you get #1 world PP.
Tachibana

Laharl wrote:

-Tachibana- wrote:

on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
What for?
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)

im not sure if it actually works out that way in the formula (i dont know the entire formula nor how it works) but it seems that way based on a lot of top players top performances (if i dont count the HD HR DT maps for obvious reasons)

edit: fixed HD to HR, letters op
Zak

-Tachibana- wrote:

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).
119410501

Zak wrote:

-Tachibana- wrote:

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).
HD DT is easier than ar7/8 HD indeed

But it depends by the map of course.
Tachibana

Zak wrote:

-Tachibana- wrote:

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).

kinda hard for me to think of an example when im a no mod player :v, also i meant "hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT" as in HD mod is giving more pp than HR or DT (not HR+DT, that would be broken)
- Rii -

-Tachibana- wrote:

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and or DT
SPOILER

HD only



DT only

and HR is clearly > HD

your argument is invalid
Tachibana

- Rii - wrote:

-Tachibana- wrote:

actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and or DT
SPOILER

HD only



DT only

and HR is clearly > HD

your argument is invalid

you're right, this one instance completely shatters my theory :roll:
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