Well ppv2 is SKILL based, so that just makes sense.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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That would kill the majority's fun.Seph wrote:
Well ppv2 is SKILL based, so that just makes sense.
PP for everyone or PP for no one.
And I'd go for the second option.
Why is that necessary?Seph wrote:
The only way to remove PP farming is to not include easy/normals/hards (unless those hards really do give some challenge, besides adding HR/DT)
simply put, manually adding maps, but that would be a pain in the ass
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
HT and EZ plays shouldn't give that much, I have an HT on my best performance = ='
Seph
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 watFull Tablet wrote:
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, some
Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
wish i knew how to play with mods :v went from rank 60 usa 1200 overall to 2300 overal and 120~ usa after you fixed the weightedness of no mods
Topic Starter
TheVileOne wrote:
Awarding pp should still be based on relative rank and your relative performances. I believe it still is even with the new changes. It is incorrect to say that removing the value of Easy/Normal/Hard modes will resolve this problem. Noone is saying that Easy/Normal/Hards can be farmed under the new system and unless it is a bug with the system, they shouldn't be able to be farmed under the new system for people who have not moved on to maps far above that skill range.
Think of the ranking system as having invisible tiers. In order to get to the next tier your average performance needs to be at a certain bar. This ensures that noone can farm into ranks they do not deserve. The fact that there are farmable maps (given that these maps are not below the player's assumed skill level for his rank) is a non-issue. A player can farm maps within his skill level all he wants, and his rank will always stay within his invisible tier in which every player around him shares a similar skill level.
The presence of maps that are easier than the average skill level required for a map to give x number of pp are the rogue maps. These maps are the ones that allow players from a lower tier to work their way into a higher tier with a lower degree of effort. These maps should be reduced as much as possible.
I think you both don't quite understand how pp works. The total pp of a player isn't just his 20 best plays added up or something. The plays are individually weighted by how far up they are.Seph wrote:
how did that become 2100pp when 300+200=500 watFull Tablet wrote:
If maps are too easy, then they won't give much pp at all (unless the difficulty calculation algorithm goes horribly wrong).
Example:
A player plays 5000 easy maps, each play worth 100pp. Then it's total pp would be ~1000pp.
Another player plays 1 hard map (worth 300pp), and also has about about 20 plays worth about 200pp. Then it's total would be about ~2100pp
and who knows, the calculation MIGHT go wrong, and I'm only not referring to easy maps, someokayhard diffs (not insanes okay) gives insane amounts of pp, you just gotta look for them. anyhow this still doesn't change the fact that you can still pp hoard so w/e
A player's best play is weighted the most, the second best play a little bit less, the third best play a bit less again, and so on. The exact formula is:
Total pp = (1st Score's pp) * X^0 + (2nd Score's pp) * X^1 + (3rd Score's pp) * X^2 + ... + (nth Score's pp) * X^(n-1)
where is slightly below 1. For instance 0.95.
This way only the best scores of a player are relevant.
If hards, normals or easys are worth too much, then please let me know. It probably is connected to a bug in the algorithm.
I think you both don't quite understand how pp works. The total pp of a player isn't just his 20 best plays added up or something. The plays are individually weighted by how far up they are.i know this isnt a big deal, but do you think you can make it so pp shows up to the 2nd decimal? right now if you have 3000.05 pp it only shows up as 3000 pp, would make tracking pp easier for players especially since most people are probably only getting a fragment of 1 pp per map
A player's best play is weighted the most, the second best play a little bit less, the third best play a bit less again, and so on. The exact formula is:
Total pp = (1st Score's pp) * X^0 + (2nd Score's pp) * X^1 + (3rd Score's pp) * X^2 + ... + (nth Score's pp) * X^(n-1)
where is slightly below 1. For instance 0.95.
This way only the best scores of a player are relevant.
If hards, normals or easys are worth too much, then please let me know. It probably is connected to a bug in the algorithm.
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
theres a very simple reason as to why we need pp, osu was and should always be considered competitive, having fun is just part of the game, we need some form of ranking system or a significant portion of the players (myself included, and quite a bit of people i know) will stop playing out of boredom, i stopped playing osu after the pp system went down because it was boring, i didnt feel i was getting better (simply being able to beat a map i couldnt beat before does not mean i got better, it just means ive played the song enough to not miss on it (someone else in this thread agrees with me on this aspect)TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
it's march and people are still having problems on if pp or ranking should exist in the game, the answer is yes, if there is no ranking then theres no competitive value, if you want to be a casual then you already are one, you've been one since you started this game, idk why people get this idea that casual's didn't exist in ppv1, i can name like 20 off the top of my head, just don't play the game for ranks but for fun, so why in your mind you think that you have complain and say ranking is stupid, a lot of people in this thread would have not got better if it wasn't for those hours and weeks of grinding one map to show people that your a fruit catching badass LOL -cough cough 119- also to provide ppv2 feedback, make maps that not a lot of people FC, very heavily weighed, like distorted love song or Atama no Taisou [Angel Honey] Dakky is #1 with HR, I'm not sure why that's not on top 5 performances, because if you can pull that off, then your good as fark, that is the #1 thing that bothers me in ppv2, when HR is not special and being top 8 on a very difficult map.-Tachibana- wrote:
theres a very simple reason as to why we need pp, osu was and should always be considered competitive, having fun is just part of the game, we need some form of ranking system or a significant portion of the players (myself included, and quite a bit of people i know) will stop playing out of boredom, i stopped playing osu after the pp system went down because it was boring, i didnt feel i was getting better (simply being able to beat a map i couldnt beat before does not mean i got better, it just means ive played the song enough to not miss on it (someone else in this thread agrees with me on this aspect)TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
We don't neccessarily need pp for competition. If you want real competition then join a multiplayer match. Tells you more about your actual skill than some inaccurate number. There are players having a lower pp rank than me who can easily beat me in a match.
Sure, there are different things you can have fun in the game. Fun to farm pp, or in my case, fun to farm a lot of score. But most importantly, I have fun with the game itself and not just advancing in some ranking. If you quit when there is no ranking around it means to me you don't have fun with the game itself enough.
I don't value the pp system, but I also don't mind having it around. I will always be a casual player.
And to be more ontopic again: Mods definitely need to be weighted more than they are now.
CTB diffs are way too overrated and so are maps with lots of long jump. Maps with a lot of weird converted patterns aren't mentioned at all.
I think this first needs a review, because maybe calculation wrong on this kind of maps?
Sure, there are different things you can have fun in the game. Fun to farm pp, or in my case, fun to farm a lot of score. But most importantly, I have fun with the game itself and not just advancing in some ranking. If you quit when there is no ranking around it means to me you don't have fun with the game itself enough.
I don't value the pp system, but I also don't mind having it around. I will always be a casual player.
And to be more ontopic again: Mods definitely need to be weighted more than they are now.
CTB diffs are way too overrated and so are maps with lots of long jump. Maps with a lot of weird converted patterns aren't mentioned at all.
I think this first needs a review, because maybe calculation wrong on this kind of maps?
Topic Starter
But that's what the current weighting already does. Instead of having fixed hard-thresholds it's a smooth function. No other difference.TheVileOne wrote:
I was aware with how pp is weighted. I have to deal with many issues concerning pp. My concept of invisible tiers still applies if the pp system is truly worth its salt. If pp does not indicate that player A is performing better than player B, then I don't see the point to having pp at all. There needs to be invisible bars in which a player must have a baseline level of skill/performance to reach such a rank.
The high end of the player's performance list should be a representation of a player's skill level. That way only similarly skilled players will be grouped together on the ranking list. It doesn't matter where on the ranking list you are among this group of people, because all of you share very similar skill ranges. For example I am ranked within the 1500-~2800 ranking tier in CTB. Most players within this rank are at or above my skill level. There shouldn't be very many below my general skill level at my rank.
If I were to implement hard thresholds, then pp gain would become very jumpy, unpredictable and illogical in various corner cases. It's not be a good idea and it's result in lots of confusion and complaints due to the jumpy nature. Just look at how many complaints already exist about "I didn't get pp but i should!!!" or "this map gave me more than the other!!!". Those scenarios would become common as part of the system.
I support that, it will do pp more intuitive imo because you can do an insane map and get 0.05 pp, and you know that your work is recognized.-Tachibana- wrote:
i know this isnt a big deal, but do you think you can make it so pp shows up to the 2nd decimal? right now if you have 3000.05 pp it only shows up as 3000 pp, would make tracking pp easier for players especially since most people are probably only getting a fragment of 1 pp per map
FYI I was not making a suggestion. I was only making a response addresses to those who are thinking that farming is an issue with the new system. There should be no way to farm your way into a rank that doesn't reflect your capable level of play compared to those around your rank, at least when you get into the top 5000. If you find maps that constantly give you pp, then these maps should be considered more difficult than maps that were rated as giving less pp in your list of performances (before weighting).
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Tell me if this is better written in a feature request.
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Tell me if this is better written in a feature request.
Topic Starter
Yup, there is analyzing happening. Having the weights display in the best performances also is an option.TheVileOne wrote:
FYI I was not making a suggestion. I was only making a response addresses to those who are thinking that farming is an issue with the new system. There should be no way to farm your way into a rank that doesn't reflect your capable level of play compared to those around your rank, at least when you get into the top 5000. If you find maps that constantly give you pp, then these maps should be considered more difficult than maps that were rated as giving less pp in your list of performances (before weighting).
There is usually some wiggle room as you move into the next tier of play. Someone who mysteriously one day starts playing songs with more proficiency, and starts performing well at songs he could not previously compete will find himself rapidly moving up the ranks, because each one of these plays will be better than plays he previously acquired. He/she is moving towards the next tier of skill/performance in the ranking. You could call this rapid gain of pp by playing better as farming. Farming is not a bad thing if it is because the player is truly getting better at playing or just playing better.
There is no amount of farming I could do to get me to rank 1500 from where I am at. It would take many many tries to get to the next tier. I am probably underestimating how much pp it takes to progress x number of ranks. I am curious about what percentile of plays in your performance list have considerable impact on your rank. What range is the bulk of your pp located? At what point is the worth of a performance is greatly diminished or doesn't have a very high impact on rank?
Will you and do you collect data on performance trends? Maybe it would be useful to analyze such data in order to determine problems with the system, and just for statistics reasons. I guess it doesn't have to be publicly available to prevent people from maximizing their pp, by filling their lists with similarly valued songs within their skill level, but some data might be safe to release.
You could allow us to view how our pp is distributed amongst our top 1000 performances. (Is it still only 1000 or did you happen to include more plays?) We could then infer things about our own true skill levels based on whether our pp values are based on a few songs or the culmination of many songs. We could have an average performance that will tell us where we are in terms of skill level. Are we better at aim, or accuracy? Do we prefer a certain mod? What mods do other player prefer at x rank? There is a ton of data that can plotted into graphs that could be used to evaluate one person's skill level to another person's and not only one facet of skill, but several different facets.
Actually all plays are included, but capping it at 1000 wouldn't really make any difference. It'd be less than 0.000000001 pp.
As a general guideline: Your best play is worth all of its pp. Your 20th play is worth around 38% of its pp and your 50th best play if worth around 8.1% of its pp. Your 100th best play is at 0.6%, which gets close to worthless.
Yes, X is 0.95, saving those the hassle who want to reverse-engineer it from those values.
Displaying seperate performance stats like aim, speed, acc and so on is something I wish can be done at some point.
And will there be a strong relation between the difficulty rating of a map and how much pp it will be worth? Will the rating be adjusted when you add mods?
I kind of want to know what can be inferred about our top performances. Will they represent maps that are relatively high in difficulty in general and all maps with that general difficulty rating will be evaluated similarly? I want to know why my current top 10 performances are more special than all the other plays I make.
Look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86044&m=2
I am ranked #293 with 3417 combo. Sure I don't use a mod, but it's a marathon map. It's easier to miss and there are jumps in it. High combo doesn't seem to matter as much. I'm not sure where this is in comparison to my top performances, but I feel it's better than some of the performances that I have in my top 10. I'm not playing with hidden like the songs in my top list, but 3417 combo has to be worth a top spot over a hidden play. The top player on the score board has missing fruits and noone has set a score with no missed fruits. 17 players overall set a score with hidden at the top ranks and the top ranks list is littered with multiple fruit misses and the top no mod play has 3795 combo.
Is it because my accuracy (99.06%) is bringing the performance down? It is common to see misses when it comes to marathon maps. I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them.
Also keep in mind for this case that a large amount of my missed fruits is because of the harder part of the song halfway in. Most players will miss at that one pattern.
Are stream filled maps without intense jumps considered relatively low in difficulty? I would think that stream filled marathon maps should be rated fairly high in difficulty to FC. If you consider each element individually, then it's not that difficult, but together you still need to hit dozens of different patterns, and there are jumps (hyper and otherwise) spread throughout the difficulty. The chance that you will screw up somewhere is very high. The same goes for other fast stream maps. Even a very small mistake will influence a miss and basically require a restart of the map in order to compete.
I kind of want to know what can be inferred about our top performances. Will they represent maps that are relatively high in difficulty in general and all maps with that general difficulty rating will be evaluated similarly? I want to know why my current top 10 performances are more special than all the other plays I make.
Look at https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=86044&m=2
I am ranked #293 with 3417 combo. Sure I don't use a mod, but it's a marathon map. It's easier to miss and there are jumps in it. High combo doesn't seem to matter as much. I'm not sure where this is in comparison to my top performances, but I feel it's better than some of the performances that I have in my top 10. I'm not playing with hidden like the songs in my top list, but 3417 combo has to be worth a top spot over a hidden play. The top player on the score board has missing fruits and noone has set a score with no missed fruits. 17 players overall set a score with hidden at the top ranks and the top ranks list is littered with multiple fruit misses and the top no mod play has 3795 combo.
Is it because my accuracy (99.06%) is bringing the performance down? It is common to see misses when it comes to marathon maps. I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them.
Also keep in mind for this case that a large amount of my missed fruits is because of the harder part of the song halfway in. Most players will miss at that one pattern.
Are stream filled maps without intense jumps considered relatively low in difficulty? I would think that stream filled marathon maps should be rated fairly high in difficulty to FC. If you consider each element individually, then it's not that difficult, but together you still need to hit dozens of different patterns, and there are jumps (hyper and otherwise) spread throughout the difficulty. The chance that you will screw up somewhere is very high. The same goes for other fast stream maps. Even a very small mistake will influence a miss and basically require a restart of the map in order to compete.
thats not soo true, it's not as draining to focus in CTB as in Stanadard aslong the AR and CS are not to high, for example i played paramax 7xtimes and always FC'ed it. same with most other marathons i tried more then onesTheVileOne wrote:
I think you should be giving extra weight for keeping combo in longer maps. Even if most of it is streams instead of aim intensive patterns, it's easier to make a mistake and it ruins your chance at a top ranking. You can't easily perform well on these maps, because of how much time it takes to get consistent at them
I'm referring to stream related marathons. I'm thinking that in this particular cases and perhaps others that difficulty is being downgraded, because of all the streams in between each jumpy pattern. We're talking about a map that literally has no one person on the list who has not missed a fruit (fruit, not droplet). The streams require constant left and right adjustments to hit. It's not like all the fruits are in straight lines for most of the time.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
what......lol. i completely disagree with this,no point.-Tachibana- wrote:
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
-Ryuujii- wrote:
what......lol. i completely disagree with this,no point.-Tachibana- wrote:
i agree with vile, stamina (or concentration, what ever you wanna call it) is definitely a skill that should be thrown into the equation, clearly if no one has ever gotten a FC on the song, even if it isnt ar10 it shows that the song is hard enough to warrant more pp
which brings me to another suggestion on top of the showing decimal points for pp
you should make it so pp is weighted based on performance (like it is now) but also based on the other players who played the map, for example if i fc a song as a rank 2000 that even a rank 100 couldnt fc (with the same mods) i should get more pp (because at the very least, in this map i am better than the rank 100 player)
ill give you an example, are you saying that marathon runners are not equally if not more fit than sprinters?
Sprinters are more muscular.-Tachibana- wrote:
ill give you an example, are you saying that marathon runners are not equally if not more fit than sprinters?
my point is, most sprinters cant beat marathon runners in long distance running and most marathon runners will probably lose to a sprinter in a 100m dashFull Tablet wrote:
Sprinters are more muscular.-Tachibana- wrote:
ill give you an example, are you saying that marathon runners are not equally if not more fit than sprinters?
The example makes sense, but it's not good at all, pretty much anyone who's high in ranks can beat out all lower tier players on any marathon, it's just that they don't play those marathons often because they find it too boring.
DeletedUser_500696
Are CTB diffs still weighted more heavily than converts just because they have a ctb tag on them? I'm wondering because most of my best performance are still ctb rain diffs, which aren't all that hard at all compared to other maps I've fc'ed/performed well on. Also, I think the 'jumpiness' contribution towards ctb pp needs to be reevaluated, as hyperdases alter the difficulty of a jump (usually makes it easier). So just because a map has back and forth jumps across the edge of the screen (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2), that does not necessarily mean it should be weighted as more difficult than jumps that are closer together (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=108021&m=2). The second example is significantly more difficult and I think most players would agree, yet the first gives a ton of pp despite the hyperdashes which assist in the jumps.
Topic Starter
CTB diffs and converts are treated completely equally.-Kurisu- wrote:
Are CTB diffs still weighted more heavily than converts just because they have a ctb tag on them? I'm wondering because most of my best performance are still ctb rain diffs, which aren't all that hard at all compared to other maps I've fc'ed/performed well on. Also, I think the 'jumpiness' contribution towards ctb pp needs to be reevaluated, as hyperdases alter the difficulty of a jump (usually makes it easier). So just because a map has back and forth jumps across the edge of the screen (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2), that does not necessarily mean it should be weighted as more difficult than jumps that are closer together (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=108021&m=2). The second example is significantly more difficult and I think most players would agree, yet the first gives a ton of pp despite the hyperdashes which assist in the jumps.
And yes, it is a current limitation of the system, that hyperdashes get overvalues which I hope to fix soon by employing a better solution. I already have a few idea in mind, which is have to experiment with.
Topic Starter
TheVileOne wrote:
I'm referring to stream related marathons. I'm thinking that in this particular cases and perhaps others that difficulty is being downgraded, because of all the streams in between each jumpy pattern. We're talking about a map that literally has no one person on the list who has not missed a fruit (fruit, not droplet). The streams require constant left and right adjustments to hit. It's not like all the fruits are in straight lines for most of the time.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
Map length is already considered, but it caps at around a 1500-2000 combo. Might increase that, but I'd have to experiment with how it'd interact with other maps.
Seph
Topic Starter
I should probably increase the AR bonus above AR9.Seph wrote:
ranked 8 on image material and it never even gave anything :v actually ranked down after that lmao
By the way, as I already said over 9000 times, what #rank you have on a map is completely irrelevant for pp calculations. That being said you shouldn't expect to get much pp from a score with that many misses. As I already said in various other threads pp measures "performance". If you can't play a map close to perfection, then pp won't award you much, even if it's hard. Otherwise anyone could just go DT Tag4 maps with a bunch of misses and expect good pp from it.
This also has technical reasons, by the way. With per-hitobject data i could make the miss malus a lot less prevailant.
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.-Ryuujii- wrote:
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
It must be change because still there are many problems i think.119410501 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.-Ryuujii- wrote:
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
1. Some many not difficult maps in best performance.
2. Still big pp is too concentrated to many CTB diffs or jumping maps. It must be dispersed to other hard standard maps and balance maps (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2), old maps
3. If you "just clear" big pp map (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=104229&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=55474&m=2, etc...), you can receive big pp "unconditional" (Although cleared with Easy mods (EZ,HT,NF) or not rank in #50 Scoreboard)
4. Still there are no bonus for HR, in high CS and DT, FL in high AR
At the end not everyone will be happy with any system that ends coming out , since it's nearly impossible to get a "fair" ranking system on a game like osu. Due to the all songs Difficulties and such. But it doesn't mean it can't be a bit fair, but having easy,normal or just pure ctb difficulties on your top performances is bad in my opinion. Tom doesn't know that much or maybe nothing about ctb ,therefore that's why he wants all you "omg I hate this system" guys to give him feedback. But if someone that knows 0 about ctb comes and gives feedback ...the circlejerk of hating the system will continue. So please people that know about ctb enough, give your opinion and help tom. thank you.
PPv1 considered those though. So I don't see why now the system is actually worse.-PM- wrote:
It must be change because still there are many problems i think.119410501 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.
1. Some many not difficult maps in best performance.
2. Still big pp is too concentrated to many CTB diffs or jumping maps. It must be dispersed to other hard standard maps and balance maps (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2), old maps
3. If you "just clear" big pp map (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=104229&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=55474&m=2, etc...), you can receive big pp "unconditional" (Although cleared with Easy mods (EZ,HT,NF) or not rank in #50 Scoreboard)
4. Still there are no bonus for HR, in high CS and DT, FL in high AR
Topic Starter
HardRock _is_ considered by quite a bit. All maps are weighted equally, CTB maps don't get any bonus just because they're CTB-specific.
DeathXHunter
But they give way more credit than they should get just because they're mapped with alot of distance. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/245184?m=2 has alot of long distance jumps but i don't think it's a hard map,at all. At least not harder than alot of plays I and other players did.
The only reason why CtB specific maps seems to be more weighted is that CtB maps are jumpy maps, and jumps are really important with this new pp, right?Tom94 wrote:
HardRock _is_ considered by quite a bit. All maps are weighted equally, CTB maps don't get any bonus just because they're CTB-specific.
@All So, stop saying that CtB maps are.. balh blah, ifTom says are weighted equally it's true ^^
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Now the problem is to know how to change the algorithm to detect "complex" jumps, it's hard point because the concept "complex" referring to jumps is not defined so good i guess.seicHmsc wrote:
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Edit: I want to say it's hard to compute mathematically a complex jump because is hard to detect only with formulas.
give examples of complex jumps, i can't do it now
seicHmsc wrote:
give examples of complex jumps, i can't do it now
I gave up active playing so i dont have many examples
, maybe 119410501 can help in that, he is more active actually.mikheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee <3
Velps, illuminate us with your experience in that game on impossible/complex jumps. I think we can do, all together, a fair system that can detect complex jumps and compute it correctly 
Eh not sure if the ctb community considers it complex or not. But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps. I have already mentioned that jump chaining is more difficult than regular standalone jumps, especially non-hyper chains. Hyper and non-hyper 1/2th node jumps that increase in spacing with each jump are quite tricky to time. Chains that suddenly become regular jumps after several hypers are slightly more difficult due to the first reason I presented. Jumps that start or end with horizontal mini-repeat sliders or wide wigglies are more precise, because you need to keep the ryuuta in a particular place to avoid missing a fruit when going for the jump.
Eh that's all that I can think of at the moment.
Eh that's all that I can think of at the moment.
Exactly. Few examples:TheVileOne wrote:
Eh not sure if the ctb community considers it complex or not. But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps.
They are even so precise that you need huge amount of luck to hit them properly
Maps like (Sticks and Stones) became maybe even close to impossible to do because of the incredible accurate timing you need
So this kind of maps should give a good amount pp if you manage to FC them
I agree with mikhe.mikhe wrote:
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Now the problem is to know how to change the algorithm to detect "complex" jumps, it's hard point because the concept "complex" referring to jumps is not defined so good i guess.
Edit: I want to say it's hard to compute mathematically a complex jump because is hard to detect only with formulas.
so i think pp calculation should based from how "complexity" the jumps instead of distance.
but the main problem, to explain the "complexity" itself is more than hard.
also,
based from TheVileOne's quote. I also want to mention, there are many jumps are harder or chained jumps instead of distance jump.TheVileOne wrote:
But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps. I have already mentioned that jump chaining is more difficult than regular standalone jumps, especially non-hyper chains. Hyper and non-hyper 1/2th node jumps that increase in spacing with each jump are quite tricky to time. Chains that suddenly become regular jumps after several hypers are slightly more difficult due to the first reason I presented. Jumps that start or end with horizontal mini-repeat sliders or wide wigglies are more precise, because you need to keep the ryuuta in a particular place to avoid missing a fruit when going for the jump.
also, based from my experience. there are many sides to see & to compare for the "complexity" jump itself .
so, my suggest. how about making a new pp convertion maps based from CTB maps(ranked/pending or even **** ctb map) or Some maps that "have complex jump". I think with that method, player can understand & give their feedback & suggest better to explain the "complexity" itself.
also. I think with this method will solve more problem than "pp calculations"
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
I dont think that the difficulty is calculated for the CtB mode, i think the stars (the difficulty of a map) is calculated like an osu! standard map. Not totally sure, but it was how it works in the past. (If someone knows, correct me pls)TheVileOne wrote:
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
One last thing, we don't need to know the algorithm, the exact pp of a map, we ONLY should know how it works, the future should be: "I see that pretty complex jumps in that map, i'm sure that this map give me pp"... *after some play* ... "I got X pp, nice
". There are some differences between to know the EXACT value and to know that SOME pp will be added to your profile.Now, i want to say something about the algorithm. I think is wrong, because it judges the pp amount of a map in base of the quantity of jumps and the distance between this jumps. What is wrong? Easy, the jumps are so overrated that some player can do HR+HT or EZ and get one of his top ranks, some examples:
- RAMPAGE88 with Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (hid+HR+HT)
- Dark Diego with the same (hid+HR+HT)
- ExGon with IOSYS - Cirno's Perfect Math Class (EZ+FL)
- ExGon with Yousei Teikoku - Kokou no Sousei (HR+HT)
There are 3 pro players, i'm sure there are so pro, but they has a huge valoration of his skills in those maps with HT and EZ!! And they have so many records even better than these.
Solution, in my opinion, first of all we have to nerf HalfTime and Eazy mods in the pp calculation. Maybe a solution could be that if you use Eazy you will get 0.5*pp and if you use HT 0.3*pp (like the nerf in the score when you use these mods).
Secondly we should open our mind, a map is not neccesary harder if we have 100 jumps, even if +50% of jumps are with hyperdash. Why is a map harder than other one? I think, always is my opinion, if you do a map with insane streams+jumps it's soooo hard, for example 44teru-k remixed wa. - Higanbana Daini -Shuusei no Lycoris-, even if you don't have "jumps" properly, but your map have streams and can't get the fruits simply stand quiet and you have to move so fast to get or to be lucky to get without any movement, for example Shounen Radio - neu.
So, i guess you don't have to do (i'm talking with you Tom) an algorithm that try to count jumps, distance and calculate pp (ofc i suppose that you count the mods, DT, hid...etc in the algorithm). I think we should create an algorithm which can detect patterns (using a data base for example). Now the point is... how many pp are fair to each pattern? I really don't know at the moment, but all the community of CtB can help us in that, i think we can work from this point all together
I'm waiting some response
(positive or negative but always with respect!)Edit: I'm sure we can find more examples of complex patterns in some CtB maps, please help me people, say some!
mikhe is right about everything there
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
You can stay in the middle actually, you just have to be precise, I've hit that part many times by just standing still.
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
And IT IS impossible to pass only standing quiet. One thing more, the players who has Fc'ed, they don't have this map as a top rank... is it logical? i don't think so... they must have this like one of their top ranks. Conclusion: The pp system doesn't count this type of patterns as "insane".
It isn't the purpose of this threadDakkyChan wrote:
Is that so hard to fix the hyperjumps again ?
. We want to get feedback about pp system, not about hyperjump system.Be more clear with your idea, because i can understand it like to cope with this pp system to change it or to adapt to it.Seph wrote:
Is trying to cope with change that hard?
DeathXHunter
Yep, you are right, the rest of the map is pretty easy... i dont know how to weight that, but at least something i think.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Topic Starter
The algorithm isn't just counting the jumps. It'd mostly taking the hardest patterns, which are currently determined by jump speed, and I agree with you that it isn't very optimal. Thanks for all the input, also to all other people who posted here, and I hope to incorporate that into the algorithm at some point.mikhe wrote:
I dont think that the difficulty is calculated for the CtB mode, i think the stars (the difficulty of a map) is calculated like an osu! standard map. Not totally sure, but it was how it works in the past. (If someone knows, correct me pls)TheVileOne wrote:
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
One last thing, we don't need to know the algorithm, the exact pp of a map, we ONLY should know how it works, the future should be: "I see that pretty complex jumps in that map, i'm sure that this map give me pp"... *after some play* ... "I got X pp, nice
Now, i want to say something about the algorithm. I think is wrong, because it judges the pp amount of a map in base of the quantity of jumps and the distance between this jumps. What is wrong? Easy, the jumps are so overrated that some player can do HR+HT or EZ and get one of his top ranks, some examples:
- RAMPAGE88 with Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (hid+HR+HT)
- Dark Diego with the same (hid+HR+HT)
- ExGon with IOSYS - Cirno's Perfect Math Class (EZ+FL)
- ExGon with Yousei Teikoku - Kokou no Sousei (HR+HT)
There are 3 pro players, i'm sure there are so pro, but they has a huge valoration of his skills in those maps with HT and EZ!! And they have so many records even better than these.
Solution, in my opinion, first of all we have to nerf HalfTime and Eazy mods in the pp calculation. Maybe a solution could be that if you use Eazy you will get 0.5*pp and if you use HT 0.3*pp (like the nerf in the score when you use these mods).
Secondly we should open our mind, a map is not neccesary harder if we have 100 jumps, even if +50% of jumps are with hyperdash. Why is a map harder than other one? I think, always is my opinion, if you do a map with insane streams+jumps it's soooo hard, for example 44teru-k remixed wa. - Higanbana Daini -Shuusei no Lycoris-, even if you don't have "jumps" properly, but your map have streams and can't get the fruits simply stand quiet and you have to move so fast to get or to be lucky to get without any movement, for example Shounen Radio - neu.
So, i guess you don't have to do (i'm talking with you Tom) an algorithm that try to count jumps, distance and calculate pp (ofc i suppose that you count the mods, DT, hid...etc in the algorithm). I think we should create an algorithm which can detect patterns (using a data base for example). Now the point is... how many pp are fair to each pattern? I really don't know at the moment, but all the community of CtB can help us in that, i think we can work from this point all together
I'm waiting some response
Edit: I'm sure we can find more examples of complex patterns in some CtB maps, please help me people, say some!
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
Question about how difficulty is calculated for pp, do streams lower the difficulty? Since that would make maps like freedom dive give very little due to it having so many long streams when it's still pretty difficult seeing as not that many people can FC it. Part of it might be the fact that it's so long since it doesn't really have that many hard parts, but the jumps that keep people from FC'ing it are still pretty challenging even if there's only a few.
Topic Starter
The difficulty algorithm is run seperately for hardrock, easy, doubletime and halftime. Don't worry, it's just just a flat difficulty bonus.TheVileOne wrote:
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
what really bothers me is the huge gap on pp right now..
I really do not understand the new system. I really cannot wait for a the wikipage or a topic for the CtB PP algorithms.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
mikhe wrote:
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
~
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
Topic Starter
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
what if all the top plays are SS's? :v assuming no spinners (it also looks like hidden is over rewarding pp despite the difficult barely going up)
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. watTom94 wrote:
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Link to example, please (the user with the HDHRHT rank)? If that's the case then I'll adjust it. That's not supposed to happen.Seph wrote:
why does airman give more with HDHRHT than an actual nomod SS? please explain.
Seph
mine and Dark Diego
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
You dodged my question and all these maps are insanely hard, they are top tier maps, theres a strong reason why only 10 people have fc'd a certain map for instance why is kemu life game worth nothing even tho it's nearly impossible and you have to get lucky https://osu.ppy.sh/u/set44599 why isn't kemu life game ( https://osu.ppy.sh/b/187501?m=2 ) on his top performances if he holds the only FC and SS another case is nomod, why is HD weighted like a anchor?Tom94 wrote:
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
PS: I'm not trying to hold torches and go after you, I know you don't play CtB but.. this ranking system needs a lot of work and you seem to think it's fine or something.
DeathXHunter
DeletedUser_500696
I agree with fabi, don't talk smack about my brethren please. Also, there is a huge range of ctb styles and preferences which cannot possibly be accounted for in a single algorithm (reliable player, HD player, HD+HR, spin pro, w/e). Don't judge others based on your style solelySabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
AUUUUUUUUUU
DeathXHunter
Sabi wrote:
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately.Sabi wrote:
I can care less about ranking
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
"I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately."
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
Oh damn, every time this fighting about ranking and pp and who is better and who is not. Just stop that already.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Agreed.TenguKing9 wrote:
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Seph
if you can't sense my grammar in the sentence of what I said, and my sarcasm then you are really foreign.Seph wrote:
haSabi wrote:
go berzerk is hardest song
hahaha
ahahahahahaha
just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
"just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp."
The ranking system is corrupt, how you may ask? I just jumped 100 ranks in 1 day by playing bullshit easy ctb maps. See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Seph
inb4 noSabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Please guys stay in the topic witout the troll/taunt/flame things... You're just making the things harder to fix for Tom.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
then why are you posting heresalamat wrote:
When ppv2 was in progress, I thought I couldn't live without PP... now I feel it shouldn't belong anymore.
That being said, I know how hard it is to establish and maintain a fair system, that why I'm not doing anything about it.
Had a long talk with a wize korean, he told me that I shouldn't be mad, and I thought about it for awhile and I realize that I can't be friends with everyone and some people are just scumbags towards you, so to be honest, sorry for bringing my problems and my anger in the forums and not to better the pp system, I am truly sorry.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
From what I've noticed after getting to rank 99 from 310 was. Droplets mean nothing and spinners mean nothing, and you don't even have to fully FC a map. Trust me, I did over 40-60 CtB maps and other maps yesterday. A strong example is this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/159792?m=2 I didn't FC it, but I lost 10 pp normally if I did FC it, I think I got trolled and droped near the end or something. but look at my pp gain from (mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2427813) to (Yukiteru Amano: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1894511).Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
PS: S vs SS is 1 PP.
Topic Starter
The "weighting" doesn't have anything to do with consistency. Only by how far up the score is in your best performance list. It's simply there to ensure you can't keep getting pp for equally good scores.Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
Just bumping in to make some statements
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)o
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)oi have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd