The example makes sense, but it's not good at all, pretty much anyone who's high in ranks can beat out all lower tier players on any marathon, it's just that they don't play those marathons often because they find it too boring.
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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)
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DeletedUser_500696
Are CTB diffs still weighted more heavily than converts just because they have a ctb tag on them? I'm wondering because most of my best performance are still ctb rain diffs, which aren't all that hard at all compared to other maps I've fc'ed/performed well on. Also, I think the 'jumpiness' contribution towards ctb pp needs to be reevaluated, as hyperdases alter the difficulty of a jump (usually makes it easier). So just because a map has back and forth jumps across the edge of the screen (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2), that does not necessarily mean it should be weighted as more difficult than jumps that are closer together (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=108021&m=2). The second example is significantly more difficult and I think most players would agree, yet the first gives a ton of pp despite the hyperdashes which assist in the jumps.
Topic Starter
CTB diffs and converts are treated completely equally.-Kurisu- wrote:
Are CTB diffs still weighted more heavily than converts just because they have a ctb tag on them? I'm wondering because most of my best performance are still ctb rain diffs, which aren't all that hard at all compared to other maps I've fc'ed/performed well on. Also, I think the 'jumpiness' contribution towards ctb pp needs to be reevaluated, as hyperdases alter the difficulty of a jump (usually makes it easier). So just because a map has back and forth jumps across the edge of the screen (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/55474?m=2), that does not necessarily mean it should be weighted as more difficult than jumps that are closer together (ex: https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=108021&m=2). The second example is significantly more difficult and I think most players would agree, yet the first gives a ton of pp despite the hyperdashes which assist in the jumps.
And yes, it is a current limitation of the system, that hyperdashes get overvalues which I hope to fix soon by employing a better solution. I already have a few idea in mind, which is have to experiment with.
Topic Starter
TheVileOne wrote:
I'm referring to stream related marathons. I'm thinking that in this particular cases and perhaps others that difficulty is being downgraded, because of all the streams in between each jumpy pattern. We're talking about a map that literally has no one person on the list who has not missed a fruit (fruit, not droplet). The streams require constant left and right adjustments to hit. It's not like all the fruits are in straight lines for most of the time.
Maybe it's not an issue. It's hard to say until I know what level the song is. Anyways I think that getting over 3000 combo is this song in CTB is impressive. It may not be top tier, super omg difficult to do, but it shows that you can play long bouts of constant gameplay sections without missing.
Map length is already considered, but it caps at around a 1500-2000 combo. Might increase that, but I'd have to experiment with how it'd interact with other maps.
Seph
Topic Starter
I should probably increase the AR bonus above AR9.Seph wrote:
ranked 8 on image material and it never even gave anything :v actually ranked down after that lmao
By the way, as I already said over 9000 times, what #rank you have on a map is completely irrelevant for pp calculations. That being said you shouldn't expect to get much pp from a score with that many misses. As I already said in various other threads pp measures "performance". If you can't play a map close to perfection, then pp won't award you much, even if it's hard. Otherwise anyone could just go DT Tag4 maps with a bunch of misses and expect good pp from it.
This also has technical reasons, by the way. With per-hitobject data i could make the miss malus a lot less prevailant.
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.-Ryuujii- wrote:
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
It must be change because still there are many problems i think.119410501 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.-Ryuujii- wrote:
i have a question, are the ranks we have now going to stay the way they are, is the system already done and finished or ranks will change again?
1. Some many not difficult maps in best performance.
2. Still big pp is too concentrated to many CTB diffs or jumping maps. It must be dispersed to other hard standard maps and balance maps (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2), old maps
3. If you "just clear" big pp map (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=104229&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=55474&m=2, etc...), you can receive big pp "unconditional" (Although cleared with Easy mods (EZ,HT,NF) or not rank in #50 Scoreboard)
4. Still there are no bonus for HR, in high CS and DT, FL in high AR
At the end not everyone will be happy with any system that ends coming out , since it's nearly impossible to get a "fair" ranking system on a game like osu. Due to the all songs Difficulties and such. But it doesn't mean it can't be a bit fair, but having easy,normal or just pure ctb difficulties on your top performances is bad in my opinion. Tom doesn't know that much or maybe nothing about ctb ,therefore that's why he wants all you "omg I hate this system" guys to give him feedback. But if someone that knows 0 about ctb comes and gives feedback ...the circlejerk of hating the system will continue. So please people that know about ctb enough, give your opinion and help tom. thank you.
PPv1 considered those though. So I don't see why now the system is actually worse.-PM- wrote:
It must be change because still there are many problems i think.119410501 wrote:
I'm pretty sure they'll change again, since many of my best performance are still noob diffs.
1. Some many not difficult maps in best performance.
2. Still big pp is too concentrated to many CTB diffs or jumping maps. It must be dispersed to other hard standard maps and balance maps (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=93893&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=25580&m=2), old maps
3. If you "just clear" big pp map (Ex : http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=104229&m=2, http://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=55474&m=2, etc...), you can receive big pp "unconditional" (Although cleared with Easy mods (EZ,HT,NF) or not rank in #50 Scoreboard)
4. Still there are no bonus for HR, in high CS and DT, FL in high AR
Topic Starter
HardRock _is_ considered by quite a bit. All maps are weighted equally, CTB maps don't get any bonus just because they're CTB-specific.
DeathXHunter
But they give way more credit than they should get just because they're mapped with alot of distance. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/245184?m=2 has alot of long distance jumps but i don't think it's a hard map,at all. At least not harder than alot of plays I and other players did.
The only reason why CtB specific maps seems to be more weighted is that CtB maps are jumpy maps, and jumps are really important with this new pp, right?Tom94 wrote:
HardRock _is_ considered by quite a bit. All maps are weighted equally, CTB maps don't get any bonus just because they're CTB-specific.
@All So, stop saying that CtB maps are.. balh blah, ifTom says are weighted equally it's true ^^
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Now the problem is to know how to change the algorithm to detect "complex" jumps, it's hard point because the concept "complex" referring to jumps is not defined so good i guess.seicHmsc wrote:
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Edit: I want to say it's hard to compute mathematically a complex jump because is hard to detect only with formulas.
give examples of complex jumps, i can't do it now
seicHmsc wrote:
give examples of complex jumps, i can't do it now
I gave up active playing so i dont have many examples
, maybe 119410501 can help in that, he is more active actually.mikheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee <3
Velps, illuminate us with your experience in that game on impossible/complex jumps. I think we can do, all together, a fair system that can detect complex jumps and compute it correctly 
Eh not sure if the ctb community considers it complex or not. But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps. I have already mentioned that jump chaining is more difficult than regular standalone jumps, especially non-hyper chains. Hyper and non-hyper 1/2th node jumps that increase in spacing with each jump are quite tricky to time. Chains that suddenly become regular jumps after several hypers are slightly more difficult due to the first reason I presented. Jumps that start or end with horizontal mini-repeat sliders or wide wigglies are more precise, because you need to keep the ryuuta in a particular place to avoid missing a fruit when going for the jump.
Eh that's all that I can think of at the moment.
Eh that's all that I can think of at the moment.
Exactly. Few examples:TheVileOne wrote:
Eh not sure if the ctb community considers it complex or not. But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps.
They are even so precise that you need huge amount of luck to hit them properly
Maps like (Sticks and Stones) became maybe even close to impossible to do because of the incredible accurate timing you need
So this kind of maps should give a good amount pp if you manage to FC them
I agree with mikhe.mikhe wrote:
then try to focus on jumps complexity instead of jumps distance, it's true that my map, romaji voice is not that hard, because the jumps are big but not complicated.
Now the problem is to know how to change the algorithm to detect "complex" jumps, it's hard point because the concept "complex" referring to jumps is not defined so good i guess.
Edit: I want to say it's hard to compute mathematically a complex jump because is hard to detect only with formulas.
so i think pp calculation should based from how "complexity" the jumps instead of distance.
but the main problem, to explain the "complexity" itself is more than hard.
also,
based from TheVileOne's quote. I also want to mention, there are many jumps are harder or chained jumps instead of distance jump.TheVileOne wrote:
But having a large non hyper jump right after a hyper jump can be more precise than if there was two regular large jumps. I have already mentioned that jump chaining is more difficult than regular standalone jumps, especially non-hyper chains. Hyper and non-hyper 1/2th node jumps that increase in spacing with each jump are quite tricky to time. Chains that suddenly become regular jumps after several hypers are slightly more difficult due to the first reason I presented. Jumps that start or end with horizontal mini-repeat sliders or wide wigglies are more precise, because you need to keep the ryuuta in a particular place to avoid missing a fruit when going for the jump.
also, based from my experience. there are many sides to see & to compare for the "complexity" jump itself .
so, my suggest. how about making a new pp convertion maps based from CTB maps(ranked/pending or even **** ctb map) or Some maps that "have complex jump". I think with that method, player can understand & give their feedback & suggest better to explain the "complexity" itself.
also. I think with this method will solve more problem than "pp calculations"
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
I dont think that the difficulty is calculated for the CtB mode, i think the stars (the difficulty of a map) is calculated like an osu! standard map. Not totally sure, but it was how it works in the past. (If someone knows, correct me pls)TheVileOne wrote:
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
One last thing, we don't need to know the algorithm, the exact pp of a map, we ONLY should know how it works, the future should be: "I see that pretty complex jumps in that map, i'm sure that this map give me pp"... *after some play* ... "I got X pp, nice
". There are some differences between to know the EXACT value and to know that SOME pp will be added to your profile.Now, i want to say something about the algorithm. I think is wrong, because it judges the pp amount of a map in base of the quantity of jumps and the distance between this jumps. What is wrong? Easy, the jumps are so overrated that some player can do HR+HT or EZ and get one of his top ranks, some examples:
- RAMPAGE88 with Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (hid+HR+HT)
- Dark Diego with the same (hid+HR+HT)
- ExGon with IOSYS - Cirno's Perfect Math Class (EZ+FL)
- ExGon with Yousei Teikoku - Kokou no Sousei (HR+HT)
There are 3 pro players, i'm sure there are so pro, but they has a huge valoration of his skills in those maps with HT and EZ!! And they have so many records even better than these.
Solution, in my opinion, first of all we have to nerf HalfTime and Eazy mods in the pp calculation. Maybe a solution could be that if you use Eazy you will get 0.5*pp and if you use HT 0.3*pp (like the nerf in the score when you use these mods).
Secondly we should open our mind, a map is not neccesary harder if we have 100 jumps, even if +50% of jumps are with hyperdash. Why is a map harder than other one? I think, always is my opinion, if you do a map with insane streams+jumps it's soooo hard, for example 44teru-k remixed wa. - Higanbana Daini -Shuusei no Lycoris-, even if you don't have "jumps" properly, but your map have streams and can't get the fruits simply stand quiet and you have to move so fast to get or to be lucky to get without any movement, for example Shounen Radio - neu.
So, i guess you don't have to do (i'm talking with you Tom) an algorithm that try to count jumps, distance and calculate pp (ofc i suppose that you count the mods, DT, hid...etc in the algorithm). I think we should create an algorithm which can detect patterns (using a data base for example). Now the point is... how many pp are fair to each pattern? I really don't know at the moment, but all the community of CtB can help us in that, i think we can work from this point all together
I'm waiting some response
(positive or negative but always with respect!)Edit: I'm sure we can find more examples of complex patterns in some CtB maps, please help me people, say some!
mikhe is right about everything there
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
You can stay in the middle actually, you just have to be precise, I've hit that part many times by just standing still.
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
And IT IS impossible to pass only standing quiet. One thing more, the players who has Fc'ed, they don't have this map as a top rank... is it logical? i don't think so... they must have this like one of their top ranks. Conclusion: The pp system doesn't count this type of patterns as "insane".
It isn't the purpose of this threadDakkyChan wrote:
Is that so hard to fix the hyperjumps again ?
. We want to get feedback about pp system, not about hyperjump system.Be more clear with your idea, because i can understand it like to cope with this pp system to change it or to adapt to it.Seph wrote:
Is trying to cope with change that hard?
DeathXHunter
Yep, you are right, the rest of the map is pretty easy... i dont know how to weight that, but at least something i think.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Topic Starter
The algorithm isn't just counting the jumps. It'd mostly taking the hardest patterns, which are currently determined by jump speed, and I agree with you that it isn't very optimal. Thanks for all the input, also to all other people who posted here, and I hope to incorporate that into the algorithm at some point.mikhe wrote:
I dont think that the difficulty is calculated for the CtB mode, i think the stars (the difficulty of a map) is calculated like an osu! standard map. Not totally sure, but it was how it works in the past. (If someone knows, correct me pls)TheVileOne wrote:
These types of patterns should be factored into the difficulty level of the map to begin with. The amount of pp a map is worth is based on this difficulty rating. I think that complex patterns are already considered towards the difficulty value. This value determines how much pp a map is worth. There is already calculations going on, but we don't know the exact values of maps yet.
One last thing, we don't need to know the algorithm, the exact pp of a map, we ONLY should know how it works, the future should be: "I see that pretty complex jumps in that map, i'm sure that this map give me pp"... *after some play* ... "I got X pp, nice
Now, i want to say something about the algorithm. I think is wrong, because it judges the pp amount of a map in base of the quantity of jumps and the distance between this jumps. What is wrong? Easy, the jumps are so overrated that some player can do HR+HT or EZ and get one of his top ranks, some examples:
- RAMPAGE88 with Team Nekokan - Can't Defeat Airman (hid+HR+HT)
- Dark Diego with the same (hid+HR+HT)
- ExGon with IOSYS - Cirno's Perfect Math Class (EZ+FL)
- ExGon with Yousei Teikoku - Kokou no Sousei (HR+HT)
There are 3 pro players, i'm sure there are so pro, but they has a huge valoration of his skills in those maps with HT and EZ!! And they have so many records even better than these.
Solution, in my opinion, first of all we have to nerf HalfTime and Eazy mods in the pp calculation. Maybe a solution could be that if you use Eazy you will get 0.5*pp and if you use HT 0.3*pp (like the nerf in the score when you use these mods).
Secondly we should open our mind, a map is not neccesary harder if we have 100 jumps, even if +50% of jumps are with hyperdash. Why is a map harder than other one? I think, always is my opinion, if you do a map with insane streams+jumps it's soooo hard, for example 44teru-k remixed wa. - Higanbana Daini -Shuusei no Lycoris-, even if you don't have "jumps" properly, but your map have streams and can't get the fruits simply stand quiet and you have to move so fast to get or to be lucky to get without any movement, for example Shounen Radio - neu.
So, i guess you don't have to do (i'm talking with you Tom) an algorithm that try to count jumps, distance and calculate pp (ofc i suppose that you count the mods, DT, hid...etc in the algorithm). I think we should create an algorithm which can detect patterns (using a data base for example). Now the point is... how many pp are fair to each pattern? I really don't know at the moment, but all the community of CtB can help us in that, i think we can work from this point all together
I'm waiting some response
Edit: I'm sure we can find more examples of complex patterns in some CtB maps, please help me people, say some!
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.
You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
Question about how difficulty is calculated for pp, do streams lower the difficulty? Since that would make maps like freedom dive give very little due to it having so many long streams when it's still pretty difficult seeing as not that many people can FC it. Part of it might be the fact that it's so long since it doesn't really have that many hard parts, but the jumps that keep people from FC'ing it are still pretty challenging even if there's only a few.
Topic Starter
The difficulty algorithm is run seperately for hardrock, easy, doubletime and halftime. Don't worry, it's just just a flat difficulty bonus.TheVileOne wrote:
When can we expect a more expansive list of difficulty values?
I would like to evaluate difficulty further, but it's very difficult when I cannot confirm how hard a map is compared to another map. It's pretty clear what some of the hardest CTB maps are, but it's not so clear where the maps that fall under them are. Maybe provide a difficulty calculator for us to play with? We can then manually choose CTB maps and have the difficulty value be calculated via an option.You have to do that pattern twice in that map. Well at least you had to do it in the stream compilation twice and in that case it's more than halfway through a 10 minute drain map (12 minute long song). Anyways should be classify as a very hard pattern. Other patterns like it need to be considered as well. They fall under chain jumps.DeathXHunter wrote:
Is it worth to be in the high top performance just because they managed to do that 1 pattern? The rest of the map is pretty easy,imo.
Also I hope that you realize that mods can change hyper jumps and the difficulty of certain patterns. Hopefully mods like Hard rock give pp based on the extra difficulty given to the map, which can vary very greatly from map to map. It is not as simple as considering that the difficulty settings get increased, the random placement of fruits can add hyper jumps and very unusual and awkward patterns.
what really bothers me is the huge gap on pp right now..
I really do not understand the new system. I really cannot wait for a the wikipage or a topic for the CtB PP algorithms.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
In general, I don't know if my PP doesn't update... or the map I just finished wasn't hard. I know I'm not that great yet, but it's deflating as a player to see no progression on completing maps that are beyond my actual capabilities at the moment.
mikhe wrote:
That's a better example of you want to sayTheVileOne wrote:
Example
It looks like you can just stay in the middle to catch the fruits, but you just can't. It's like in between two movement frames, so that you can't quite position yourself in the correct place to catch all the fruits, you are forced to move back and forth for each fruit.
~
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
Topic Starter
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
what if all the top plays are SS's? :v assuming no spinners (it also looks like hidden is over rewarding pp despite the difficult barely going up)
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
edit: i also noticed an emphasis on FC to get pp, i rarely play insane's (almost all my ranks are hards, so im assuming my pp would be that of someone who plays hard and can barely beat easy insanes) despite this, i got a 300 combo on a 325 combo song and got <1 pp (1 rank), i would assume based on the system that you describe, that i would gain quite a bit of pp because i cant really beat insane's unless theyre really easy but i got so little i couldnt even see if i went up in pp or not
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. watTom94 wrote:
You already have a lot of scores of comparable quality. You will get rewarded more pp if you improve your hardest plays. The score rank you achieve on a particular map doesn't matter at all anymore.Sabi wrote:
So I got bored and I decided to SS a bunch of extra songs and I got 0 pp for this, why?
http://gyazo.com/75ee6e12bf4d1761bf16ad14a3a4b338
why is top 10 weighed so low? and why is nomod not weighed at all?
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Topic Starter
Link to example, please (the user with the HDHRHT rank)? If that's the case then I'll adjust it. That's not supposed to happen.Seph wrote:
why does airman give more with HDHRHT than an actual nomod SS? please explain.
Seph
mine and Dark Diego
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
just checked and it seems a HDHRHT SS play gives more pp than the others, and it disregards the rank (or the spinner, w/e lol). RAMPAGE88 got 465 pp vs Dark Diego's 464 but not SS
You dodged my question and all these maps are insanely hard, they are top tier maps, theres a strong reason why only 10 people have fc'd a certain map for instance why is kemu life game worth nothing even tho it's nearly impossible and you have to get lucky https://osu.ppy.sh/u/set44599 why isn't kemu life game ( https://osu.ppy.sh/b/187501?m=2 ) on his top performances if he holds the only FC and SS another case is nomod, why is HD weighted like a anchor?Tom94 wrote:
Playing harder maps than your top plays also works. You don't need to improve on the exact same maps.Sabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
PS: I'm not trying to hold torches and go after you, I know you don't play CtB but.. this ranking system needs a lot of work and you seem to think it's fine or something.
DeathXHunter
DeletedUser_500696
I agree with fabi, don't talk smack about my brethren please. Also, there is a huge range of ctb styles and preferences which cannot possibly be accounted for in a single algorithm (reliable player, HD player, HD+HR, spin pro, w/e). Don't judge others based on your style solelySabi wrote:
How do I improve my top plays if they are SS's? Spins? or? HD? cuz HD is really gay, it has no factor in the game's difficulty at all, to me it's just a preference of style, and also I just SS"D over 30 extra's and got multiple top 8's and 10's and I still didn't get 1 pp from it, and also can you explain this? http://gyazo.com/dd1790888a59f3cbe4e52574e7bcc640 that guy is rank 255 with normals and easy's on top performance. wat
edit: all this didn't give me 1 pp I think rin gave me like 1 or 2 http://gyazo.com/5b0ed8d80905584648bd0d7e0529b231
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
AUUUUUUUUUU
DeathXHunter
Sabi wrote:
Shit talking other players? are you stupid or something? When did I shit talk anyone? are you retarded? or something holy shit. I was just wondering why there was normals and easy maps on top performances, I was using him as an example. I can care less about ranking I already know I'm good.DeathXHunter wrote:
Mad 'cause bad. Stop shit-talking about other players in public just because you think you deserve a higher rank and learn to play yourself.
I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately.Sabi wrote:
I can care less about ranking
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
"I thought you cared, otherwise why were you so upset when pp was gone? You wouldn't care about all those "top tier" maps giving you 0pp either. Stop contradicting yourself, if you're so upset about the pp system then suggest ways for it to improve instead of complaining about it, that's all you've been doing lately."
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
brb fapping
"I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder."
go berzerk is hardest song, it's worth a lot cuz its harder than even big blackums no jkoke that's why i'ts worth so mcuhz
Oh damn, every time this fighting about ranking and pp and who is better and who is not. Just stop that already.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
I completely agree with 119, it was way more pleasant to see the players profile without a rank.
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Agreed.TenguKing9 wrote:
Zak wrote:
EDIT: I would also like to ask about what has been done when calculating the difficulty? I find it really odd that Go Berzerk still gives more than Calamity Fortune when it's worlds harder.
Also I think misses need to be penalized a little less, I like that droplets aren't penalized very much anymore (though they could be weighted slightly more idk) but on maps that are excessively hard to FC it's nearly impossible to get any pp because misses are completely destroying the pp they give.
Here's a good example:
I know that my score on Image Material is shit, but that's the very bottom of all my plays and I just don't see how that should be the 6th worst play I have out of nearly 3,500 maps that I have a score on.
Seph
if you can't sense my grammar in the sentence of what I said, and my sarcasm then you are really foreign.Seph wrote:
haSabi wrote:
go berzerk is hardest song
hahaha
ahahahahahaha
just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp.
"just learn to play and you'll eventually get pp."
The ranking system is corrupt, how you may ask? I just jumped 100 ranks in 1 day by playing bullshit easy ctb maps. See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Seph
inb4 noSabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
Please guys stay in the topic witout the troll/taunt/flame things... You're just making the things harder to fix for Tom.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
That being said, if you want to post here, then make sure to have arguments/examples related to the topic.
Thank you.
then why are you posting heresalamat wrote:
When ppv2 was in progress, I thought I couldn't live without PP... now I feel it shouldn't belong anymore.
That being said, I know how hard it is to establish and maintain a fair system, that why I'm not doing anything about it.
Had a long talk with a wize korean, he told me that I shouldn't be mad, and I thought about it for awhile and I realize that I can't be friends with everyone and some people are just scumbags towards you, so to be honest, sorry for bringing my problems and my anger in the forums and not to better the pp system, I am truly sorry.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
-Sabi/Nekoua
PS: To help out the PP System theres a map on my top performances https://osu.ppy.sh/b/51694?m=2 that offers way to much, and also from what I've noticed in "PP Maps" is that they offer for "back and forth" jumps such as go berzerk, voice etc. thanks and try your best to improve the system.
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
From what I've noticed after getting to rank 99 from 310 was. Droplets mean nothing and spinners mean nothing, and you don't even have to fully FC a map. Trust me, I did over 40-60 CtB maps and other maps yesterday. A strong example is this https://osu.ppy.sh/b/159792?m=2 I didn't FC it, but I lost 10 pp normally if I did FC it, I think I got trolled and droped near the end or something. but look at my pp gain from (mine: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/2427813) to (Yukiteru Amano: https://osu.ppy.sh/u/1894511).Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
PS: S vs SS is 1 PP.
Topic Starter
The "weighting" doesn't have anything to do with consistency. Only by how far up the score is in your best performance list. It's simply there to ensure you can't keep getting pp for equally good scores.Kingkevin30 wrote:
i wanted to ask about something with they weight of Maps and how they compare.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19465?m=2
this is a comparinson between Sabi's and my Record on the same map on the same diff. (i got a higher accuracy&Score with same Mod)
as im understanding pp, it should weight someones "perfomance" of playing constantly good, so if i want to beat a higher ranked player
i have to improve my whole perfomance through player better on harder maps and that with some consinstance.
but the "basic pp" of a map doesn't change..right?..just how much it is weighted..so why does he who is weighted higher overall (plays more consistant)
get a weightening in this map, while my skill consistance that is lower then his (as shown through my rank) doesn't get a weighting?
Just bumping in to make some statements
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)o
> Guys we really have to stop quarrelling over the existence of pp and whether people who lives by pp are certain type of people with certain negative traits etc etc I love both pp and skill, I don't see how pp and skill are mutually exclusive and a person can only have 1 of them at once :O I think what Tom is trying to do here is to make the best of both worlds, so that those who loves pp gets fair pp and those who don't will not be bothered by unjustified pp. So people let's not quarrel about whether pp system should exist or how bad the people who love/hate pp are, we're tearing apart Tom's hardwork and goodwill. Let's focus on doing more productive things like raising problems within the pp systems and maybe possible ways to improve it ~
> Let's be nice with our tone of language :3 No need to get so emotional and personal etc. It's counter-productive.
> Getting to the core topic here I think Sabi has proven that the pp system can unreasonably reward pp (jumped from 307 to 97 in 2 days), and so do many other players' anecdotal accounts suggest the same thing. So I really do think the pp system needs a fix on what it considers as "difficult" and what it consider as a "sign of improvement in skill".
> One thing I suggest is to come out with a permutation table, that lists all the elements that makes up a map and all permutations of the elements as different sets of difficulties. Meaning that it'll show all combinations of AR(0-10) + OD(1-7) + CS(1-6) + HP(1-10) + (all combinations of mod), and have each set weighed accordingly. It'll take plenty of time to tabulate and get people to test each one out but it should be rather accurate if it's completed
> Wiki page on CTB pp system will be extremely helpful~
> We have to identify map elements that are not within map settings like AR OD CS HP mods that can largely vary the maps actual difficulty. How to deal with them I have no idea as of now since I have not identified the elements yet. But I do think the zigzag dash in Banned Forever is very tough since it requires great control and consistency and some SS like Disconnected Hardkore can be very hard to get too :< These are the 2 things I can name now.
> Do we have a team of designated people to test the success of pp system? Or is it better if we do not have a special team for testing pp?
These are all my thoughts for now
Won't play for about a week or so due to exams next week, but I'm sure looking forward to a better pp system when I come back o(>~<)oi have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
Seph
I'm guessing pp calculation for HR plays aren't weighted that much yet? I have some AR9 HDHR plays and they don't give that much. And waiting for the airman fix x3 that would give me some more pp if it doeslineqtxz wrote:
i have a question:
why ar10 + hr = tons of pp and ar9 + hr = ar10 = no pp xd
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
wait...
im not :O
VelperK wrote:
i'm 2nd in pp so that means i must be happy about it
wait...
im not :O
you're just unhappy because you cant beat exgon
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
sigh
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
I can make you the best pp wiki:-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
Check users with less than 20 ranks above you's best performance and so on until you get #1 world PP.
Laharl wrote:
What for?-Tachibana- wrote:
on a more serious note, i would also love to have a ctb pp wiki
- A list of maps giving great PP? - Owait
- How it is calculated? - Already in this thread
- What gives extra bonuses and such? - Should be obvious
- everything else I forgot - You shouldn't care about that, really...
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
im not sure if it actually works out that way in the formula (i dont know the entire formula nor how it works) but it seems that way based on a lot of top players top performances (if i dont count the HD HR DT maps for obvious reasons)
edit: fixed HD to HR, letters op
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
HD DT is easier than ar7/8 HD indeedZak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
But it depends by the map of course.
Zak wrote:
Provide an example where HD has given more than HD+DT? I'm pretty certain that isn't happening anywhere, as the algorithm calculates the difficulty with DT added, while I think HD just gives a flat bonus, and obviously any map will be harder with DT (though most skilled players might find it easier since anything lower than AR8 is rather slow).-Tachibana- wrote:
actually, i think hidden is giving more pp than HD and DT (despite the former giving more of a bonus to score and the latter giving the same bonus)
kinda hard for me to think of an example when im a no mod player :v, also i meant "hidden is giving more pp than HR and DT" as in HD mod is giving more pp than HR or DT (not HR+DT, that would be broken)
You have absolutely nothing to actually support your theory though, you need to provide some examples where HD is giving more pp than DT/HR
Topic Starter
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
that explains that :v (also by your definition, what is crazy high and crazy low ar? 9 and up high and 6 or below is low?
Haron_old_1
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/1451372 0 pp, but it's really hard ):
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Easier map with HR gave me 16 pp.
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
I think it would be better to revamp the scoring system and base it on the pp system when this one is "finished". But this isn't for now I guess...TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
Sabi wrote:
See you at top 50, I will get to top 50 within 1 week just to prove how dumb and easy it is.
As I saidSabi wrote:
I.. have failed you Natalia Poklonskaya ;; l0l just kidding atleast I got to 68 2 days before my internet was shut off *had to switch cuz comcast did the ol' let's put 300 dollars on your bill for no reason at all* I tried D;VelperK wrote:
no
Topic Starter
It certainly would be ultra cool to have mod-specific highscores. Right now it can't be done, though. Let's see what the future brings.TheVileOne wrote:
Shouldn't the DT score replace a HD score in the case when someone achieves the same score because it will be worth more pp? Could this behavior be considered? It would seem to be a logical course of action to consider the more valuable score as the score that is submitted when the scores are equal.Tom94 wrote:
DT should in pretty much all cases be superior to HD. Same goes for HR, but it's closer with HR. Cases where HD might come close to outshine these are crazy high and crazy low ARs.
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
As I said68 was close enough~ and besides, I ranked and did over 80 maps, give sabi a break >_>
no
Yep, pretty much.Luna wrote:
Star rating in general is way too high for everything in CtB.
Cup and Salad diffs (Easy/Normal) are usually marked as Insanes, Platter/Rain/Overdose pretty much always as Extreme.
Just look at any ranked CtB mapset, like this one: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/91485
It does know how to put them at a proper order, but it overrates them like crazy.
AR10 and AR9+DT should give a lot more pp,
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
what do i mean? look at this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/130826 Gabriela Vega y Maggie Vera - La Eterna Luz (TV Size)
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC, while a song that I've played with HR are not that high rewarded as this, example: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/91215?m=2
If you ask me which one is harder, obviously is power of dream by a lot (still is not that hard to fc), same happens on the AR9DT stuff, I have this one https://osu.ppy.sh/p/beatmap?b=48416&m=2 I don't know how many pp it gives because I didn't find it.
So here is a problem I guess, the hardest map is "basara", which gives the less pp, and the easier one is "la eterna luz", which give the most.
Not sure if you understand x__x
I thought it's already well-known that the PP rewards of CtB-specific maps are ridiculously high compared to the ones of converted maps which may be sometimes way more challenging.seicHmsc wrote:
The Rain difficulty gives 203pp, it is not that hard to FC [...]