dw that's still there, it just got moved to this location: https://puu.sh/ACl3J/b9e8881660.png
Thats true. The main reasoning for this was because tha'ts still how the community will refer to those kinds of maps, like its part of a mapper lingo of some sort. I guess its similar to "bubbles" in v2 (theyre dead xd).UndeadCapulet wrote:
@squirrel
terms are only defined when they appear in the criteria. the marathon term doesn't ever appear in the new draft so there's no need to keep the definition. it was only defined because there was a rule for it, but now it's better to just standardize everything.
dont see why not tbh, both rules exactly say "This spread must comply with its respective mode's difficulty-specific Ranking Criteria." The one change in wording for that elaboration would just be changing "this spread" to "spreads." I don't think its a big deal but tbh it would be a lot more efficient and less repetitive so i still dont see why notUndeadCapulet wrote:
can't combine the single/hybrid sets the way you suggested bc the wording is very misleading. the current draft/current rc are how they are for a reason
(tho ive now noticed a poor wording in the current draft that'll be fixed)
If you're saying we should wait to include it (which in that case, I disagree), i think it should be added in as soon as we define "song compilations" in the criteria. Song choice and your reasonging for it acts as a backbone for a compilation.UndeadCapulet wrote:
@squirrelstrata
that draft is discussing more than just the technical requirements of compilations, so it's prob best to keep it as its own thing
Song compilations must incorporate 3 or more songs. Using only 2 songs in a compilation is not a sufficient number of tracks to offer a compelling experience for players when compiled together, and should be broken up into separate mapsets.And
The audio file of a song must not be artificially extended in order to meet a time limitation in the mapset section of this criteria. Illegal extensions include (but are not limited to) looping sections of the audio file, lowering the bpm of the song or section of the song, and adding small amounts of music to the song without incorporating it throughout the entire song.But allowed according to;
If the audio file is extended in such a way, the mapset must still comply with the time limitations of its unaltered audio.Leaving the contradiction itself, I don’t really recommend banning the combination of two songs from being rankable since there are good results coming from that idea. Refer to;
The audio file of a song must not be artificially extended in order to meet a time limitation in the mapset section of this criteria.To
Only the official song length will be considered in order to meet a time limitation in the mapset section of this criteria.Extensions and song additions are not considered for spread requirements, exception being songs compilation. Extensions include (but are not limited to) looping sections of the audio file, lowering the bpm of the song or section of the song, and adding small amounts of music to the song without incorporating it throughout the entire song are not considered for spread requirements. If the audio file is extended in such a way, the mapset must still comply with the time limitations of its unaltered audio.
Song compilations must incorporate 3 or more songs.and
Song Compilation: An audio file that features more than 2 different songs or sections of multiple different songs.
Song Compilation: An audio file that features at least 3 songs or sections of multiple different songs.
Song compilations must incorporate 3 or more songs. Using only 2 songs in a compilation is not a sufficient number of tracks to offer a compelling experience for players when compiled together, and should be broken up into separate mapsets.We can remove the following explanation since it contradicts allowing the extensions when the rule is about songs compilation. All explanations of rules in the RC are supposed to be related to the first sentence and things like “Using only 2 songs […]should be broken up into separate mapsets.” Doesn’t relate to the topic of songs compilation.
+1 this, we just had a fiesta about this in #catch over confusing wording, this would help clear things up for those who weren't aware of itZiRoX wrote:
I know the first rule applies to all modes as Ascendance asked about it, but the current wording doesn't make it clear if it applies to every mode in hybrid mapsets, which I think it should. For this reason, I suggest to change the wording to:This would make it clear that you can't have, for example, a HI standard spread + an IX catch spread on a 3:30-4:30 song, which is what at least us catch people agreed a while ago.
- If the drain time of a song is...
- ...lower than 4:30, the lowest difficulty of each mode cannot be harder than a Hard.
- ...lower than 5:00, the lowest difficulty of each mode cannot be harder than an Insane.
… lower than 4:30, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than a Hard.
… lower than 5:00, the lowest difficulty cannot be harder than an Insane.
Monstrata wrote:
1. Take out mp3 editing as a rule. Optionally you can make it a guideline that artificially edited mp3 extensions must sound natural/unnoticeable in order to be acceptable.
2. Remove the crossfade rule, and put it in as a guideline so people have the option to call a map out for its low quality crossfading, but not the ability to completely prevent it from being ranked. It is far too subjective to be an objective rule anyways.
Maybe I misunderstood something in your post, but I'm pretty sure this ain't forcing anyone to map those diffs or over them, but rather those diffs and under (for atleast the lowest diff); and thus in case of calmer songs having all diffs under those shouldn't be contradicting the idea of the wording there.Nozhomi wrote:
There's some songs who don't support difficulties above Hard or Insane (depending of their BPM / density / etc...) who will lead this to mappers having forced difficulties who won't fit the song at all to have a spread as rules expect (example : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/481272 / https://osu.ppy.sh/b/550579). So I don't think than you should force people do to a Hard / Insane in case of the songs can't support it, or allow them to fall under Marathon rule.
Same but not restricted to two, considering there's compositions consisting of more parts than that still working as one whole. Basically restricting this with any number shouldn't really be necessary. In most cases songs ain't so short that you'd need like half dozen to get to the 5 min mark (so it ain't really abusable anyways), so putting the max amount for this will only end up forbidding mapping some pieces as whole, while their length would be over the 5 mins for single-diff-mapset even without all parts.Halfslashed wrote:
I think an exception should be made for using two songs that were composed to transition into each other.
Lasse wrote:
agree with both of these, mainly the bold partMonstrata wrote:
1. Take out mp3 editing as a rule. Optionally you can make it a guideline that artificially edited mp3 extensions must sound natural/unnoticeable in order to be acceptable.
2. Remove the crossfade rule, and put it in as a guideline so people have the option to call a map out for its low quality crossfading, but not the ability to completely prevent it from being ranked. It is far too subjective to be an objective rule anyways.
agree with Halfslashed's point about combining two songs, since there are a lot of cases where songs work much better if you combine them, just look at https://osu.ppy.sh/s/100348 which would be affected by this change since it technically combines two songs, it's split like this https://i.imgur.com/3fhDLNU.jpg on the album. where the actual kanshou no matenrou starts at 00:43:271 -
also with how this change is currently, if you're mapping a song that is just slightly above 3:30 you wouldn't be allowed to put breaks on your hard diff because then it wouldn't reach the drain minimum to not need a normal.
For example https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1072897 higher diffs on this are ~3:40, so lowest diff could be a hard, but then diffs below another are <3:30.
Or https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1590239 where Insane+ diffs are all above 3:30, but hard is 3:29 due to breaks.
Breaks can be very important on <Insane diffs of this length and this would discourage using them, so I think this should somehow be accounted for, but I can't really come up with a nice solution right now.
Other drain time related spread changes look nice to me
No, cutting a full version of a song to make it "tv size" is basically just been lazy to map a spread of 1:30 minutes for each diff despite a spread of 4:30 for each diff lolpeppy wrote:
Cutting shorter is done to make it more playable/suited to a rhythm game. Making longer is done to avoid mapping certain difficulties with basically no exception.
shorter songs will not be affected, anything shorter than 3:30 minutes will still have to follow the current spread rulesmoonlightleaf wrote:
Happy ! but if do this , e E&N diff will decrease ? (just imo
so i suggest if do TV size(<2min?) , should be map E N at least ?
timemon wrote:
I've only read the spread proposal. I quite like it, though 3:30 drain time is very hard to reach.
1) full ver maps have lots of break (because they don't have to care about drain time)
2) some full ver songs can be quite short (3:30 to 4:00) so they might even fail to hit the rules designed to help them.
Maybe adjust the drain time a bit? I think 3:00 is good for the lowest point.
Lasse wrote:
Breaks can be very important on <Insane diffs of this length and this would discourage using them, so I think this should somehow be accounted for, but I can't really come up with a nice solution right now.
Monstrata wrote:
1. Take out mp3 editing as a rule. Optionally you can make it a guideline that artificially edited mp3 extensions must sound natural/unnoticeable in order to be acceptable.
2. Remove the crossfade rule, and put it in as a guideline so people have the option to call a map out for its low quality crossfading, but not the ability to completely prevent it from being ranked. It is far too subjective to be an objective rule anyways.
-Mo- wrote:
Suggestions:
- Move the cut-off point for Normal difficulties up to 4:00. I think this is a more reasonable place to put it given the demand for full length songs.
- Add a new guideline that relaxes what a reasonable spread is for maps above 3:00. This is my compromise for raising the normal diff cut-off. One of the problems mappers face is having a low level normal diff and a high level hard diff, and requiring either remaps of the current diffs or the addition of an advanced diff to fill the gap. This problem is amplified for longer maps because more effort etc etc. This new guideline would allow spreads with wider gaps between each difficulty, lowering the workload on the mapper by not having to worry about spread too much and having less drain time to map whilst keeping maps accessible for lower level players.
I completely agree with these since I dont even see what can make a crossfade low quality and mp3 extensions that are done well you cant tell are extended.Monstrata wrote:
1. Take out mp3 editing as a rule. Optionally you can make it a guideline that artificially edited mp3 extensions must sound natural/unnoticeable in order to be acceptable.
2. Remove the crossfade rule, and put it in as a guideline so people have the option to call a map out for its low quality crossfading, but not the ability to completely prevent it from being ranked. It is far too subjective to be an objective rule anyways.
Problem with this is not all songs will be the same difficulty example being https://osu.ppy.sh/s/744238 which has a 206bpm song and a 86bpm which are completely related as its part of the same album project so its a completely logical compilationpimpG wrote:
not really looking forward to see the beginner difficulties decreasing but the boss has spoken and he doesn't really mind that...
"only allow compilations to be mapped as the same difficulty level each song..."
^ I think this should be considered
This is what I also suggested here https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/6655193Mir wrote:
I actually agree with this, full version songs are more likely to have breaks in them so having slight leeway for breaks in longer songs would be nice. Instead of 3:30 -> 4:30 -> 5:00, I would prefer 3:00 -> 4:00 -> 5:00. Not only is it more linear (there's a lot of room between 3:30-4:30 to require a hard but half that from 4:30-5:00 to require an insane) but it could also allow more breaks in 3:00+ songs.timemon wrote:
I've only read the spread proposal. I quite like it, though 3:30 drain time is very hard to reach.
1) full ver maps have lots of break (because they don't have to care about drain time)
2) some full ver songs can be quite short (3:30 to 4:00) so they might even fail to hit the rules designed to help them.
Maybe adjust the drain time a bit? I think 3:00 is good for the lowest point.
This pretty much solves Lasse's concern I think?Lasse wrote:
Breaks can be very important on <Insane diffs of this length and this would discourage using them, so I think this should somehow be accounted for, but I can't really come up with a nice solution right now.
That was the very beginning of the thread though. Since we have a lot more people in on this discussion now and we're approaching spreading from different perspectives, I think we should reconsider a linear 3:00 -> 4:00 -> 5:00 draintime spread.UndeadCapulet wrote:
@squirrel
please read the first few pages for why we can't do 3/4/5 for time limits. it was almost exclusively seen as too lenient.
Tfw tried looking the previous pages like where the hell's this, only to realize in the end it's prob just sarcastic remark forOkoratu wrote:
very good list kibb
FeelsBadManKibbleru wrote:
the only exception i could make with the 3 song rule is red like roses 1 and 2 from rwby. but iirc that was an official track released by the artist?
The problem with the graphs shown as well as the data via twitter poll is that it does not take into account that people wanting full length songs are invested in the game. The purpose of the proposal is to incentivize mapping more songs of that length for that audience, as opposed to the newer audience that tires out. Given that, I still think 3:30 for a minimum difficulty of hard is a good place to put the cutoff.-Mo- wrote:
Suggestions:
- Move the cut-off point for Normal difficulties up to 4:00. I think this is a more reasonable place to put it given the demand for full length songs.
- Add a new guideline that relaxes what a reasonable spread is for maps above 3:00. This is my compromise for raising the normal diff cut-off. One of the problems mappers face is having a low level normal diff and a high level hard diff, and requiring either remaps of the current diffs or the addition of an advanced diff to fill the gap. This problem is amplified for longer maps because more effort etc etc. This new guideline would allow spreads with wider gaps between each difficulty, lowering the workload on the mapper by not having to worry about spread too much and having less drain time to map whilst keeping maps accessible for lower level players.
sure but what if the songs have similar bpm and intensity, shouldn't the RC at least discourage mappers from mapping them inconsistently?Nevo wrote:
Problem with this is not all songs will be the same difficulty example being https://osu.ppy.sh/s/744238 which has a 206bpm song and a 86bpm which are completely related as its part of the same album project so its a completely logical compilationpimpG wrote:
not really looking forward to see the beginner difficulties decreasing but the boss has spoken and he doesn't really mind that...
"only allow compilations to be mapped as the same difficulty level each song..."
^ I think this should be considered