Making a quick post responding to the official "veto-ing" post. I trust you guys will consider these points when mediating the veto. There are points I agree with and points I disagree with, as the BN who originally nominated this after literally 8+ hours of modding and rechecking, and discussing the same issues with ProBox beforehand.
I've edited out unnecessary passive aggressive attacks, and baseless rhetoric, not sure why we're getting so worked out over a map lol. No need to reject someone elses work as nonsensical or making absolutely no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but calling the map these kinds of phrases does not add anything to the discussion, it only shows your apparent anger towards the map .
Green = stuff I agree with
Red = stuff I think is misguided
I was not, however, expecting to see patterns like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2) - as you mentioned, lumped in with the example above. Here, you can clearly hear that every object has some musical correlation to it. 01:31:488 (1) - Kick + vocal 01:31:650 (2) - vocal 01:31:812 (1) - kick 01:31:974 (2) - vocal. Compare that to 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - ... 00:57:110 (1) - Vocal + kick, 00:57:272 (2) - nothing, 00:57:434 (3) - nothing. The difference is clear, and I trust you can make this distinction. Lumping them together would mean making an incorrect assumption that everything is unjustified.
If your problem is "filler rhythm" like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2) - 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - etc... then you should know filler rhythm is used a lot in ranked maps. I could pull some off your maps too, but I'm sure that's not going to be productive to this discussion. Filler rhythm is often employed, so in that respect, your claim is not strong.
If your problem is "unjustified rhythm choices" like 00:57:110 (1,2,3,4) - then you have a valid case, as this is something you rarely see in ranked maps (true overmapping, imo). But stick to veto'ing for these issues and these issues alone. Lumping filler rhythm examples in with this is precisely what is causing this confusion because ProBox and other modders/mappers are looking at other examples you posted and going "what? but those are clearly justified?".
I've edited out unnecessary passive aggressive attacks, and baseless rhetoric, not sure why we're getting so worked out over a map lol. No need to reject someone elses work as nonsensical or making absolutely no sense. It doesn't have to make sense to you, but calling the map these kinds of phrases does not add anything to the discussion, it only shows your apparent anger towards the map .
Green = stuff I agree with
Red = stuff I think is misguided
Overall your analysis is not bad, but still lacking because you either mistakenly selected wrong timestamps, or are incorrectly labelling every "example" you find as unjustified/nonsensical. For example, looking at your short summary, you are absolutely correct in saying stuff like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - are unjustified in both rhythm choice (why are they circles, there's no musical support for them) and spacing (why are they so big? there is nothing supporting them in the music so creating emphasis onto them is an even bigger red flag). Stuff like this is worth veto'ing. I brought it up as a potential concern when I originally nominated, but wanted to see how this issue would be discussed. A discussion around these pattern is what I was looking for, so thank you for that.Lasse wrote:
02:56:785 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - still doesnt even try to represent the 3/4 emphasis in the song through movement or rhythm This shouldn't need to follow 3/4 emphasis. This is clearly following the 1/4 drum roll and it's completely justified by the music. Here, there is no imperative to following 3/4, rather that would distract from the mapper's objective here.
just looking at rhythms 03:04:244 (1,2,3,4) - makes me question what you're trying to do, it feels like mindless circle spam and according to your replies this won't change and it's basically the whole map. basically makes the whole map feel extremely forced since it's filled with circle jump spam that feels completely out of place Are you sure? This is probably not the timestamp you want, because everything here is justified in the music... Listen to what the circles are following, when you click them you can hear them syncing to something. I get your concerns though, just, not a good example here imo.
rhythm/spacing overall just feels like a mess, looking at things like 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - just being random fullscreen 1-2 jumps, you can't even argue that you wanted to emphasize vocals or whatever, those are focusing on red ticks If you look at the map as a whole they aren't "random full screen" jumps, they aren't even that big since vertical screen jumps are a lot smaller than horizontal screen jumps. Rhythm-wise, they follow kicks and vocals. Following vocals =/= emphasizing vocals. Mapping these as 1/2 sliders is too simple for this difficulty, using 1/2 circles is the way to go so inevitable you have to map kicks and vocals to 1/2.
then other rhythm things that just make everything unclear for example 01:25:326 (5) - before this you focused on vocals, then suddenly this just switches to drums and completely skips red tick vocal, followed by 01:25:326 (5,1,2,3) - being some kind of drum rhythm just to go back to vocals on 01:26:299 (1,2,3,1,2) - which is one of the issues that happens pretty much throughout the whole map Yes, agree with these. Brought it up with ProBox at one point, I still recommend fixing this.
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short summary:
overall I still think both spacing and rhythm are fundamentally flawed, which is also the main reason to keep this veto
lots of examples in the initial veto (like 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - etc) This is a good example and in this post, I can basically jump to a random point in the map and find things like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - within a few seconds Poor example here though. Everything here snaps to something in the music., which just feels like nonsensical filler rhythm jump spam
I was not, however, expecting to see patterns like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2) - as you mentioned, lumped in with the example above. Here, you can clearly hear that every object has some musical correlation to it. 01:31:488 (1) - Kick + vocal 01:31:650 (2) - vocal 01:31:812 (1) - kick 01:31:974 (2) - vocal. Compare that to 00:57:110 (1,2,3) - ... 00:57:110 (1) - Vocal + kick, 00:57:272 (2) - nothing, 00:57:434 (3) - nothing. The difference is clear, and I trust you can make this distinction. Lumping them together would mean making an incorrect assumption that everything is unjustified.
If your problem is "filler rhythm" like 01:31:488 (1,2,1,2) - 03:07:487 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - etc... then you should know filler rhythm is used a lot in ranked maps. I could pull some off your maps too, but I'm sure that's not going to be productive to this discussion. Filler rhythm is often employed, so in that respect, your claim is not strong.
If your problem is "unjustified rhythm choices" like 00:57:110 (1,2,3,4) - then you have a valid case, as this is something you rarely see in ranked maps (true overmapping, imo). But stick to veto'ing for these issues and these issues alone. Lumping filler rhythm examples in with this is precisely what is causing this confusion because ProBox and other modders/mappers are looking at other examples you posted and going "what? but those are clearly justified?".