The main reason we don't need discussion at this time is because it won't get much done, we have to wait until Tom (or someone else) who has the time and ability to reshape the system again comes along to do so, but at the same time, most issues that are currently there have already been brought up and will likely be looked over by whoever changes the system again.

Also the reason you don't see those players at the top is because they don't gain pp, that's how the system works, unless you keep gaining, your rank drops further and further.

Zak wrote:

they don't gain pp, that's how the system works

They don't gain pp, that's why the system doesn't work looool

By the way I'm 666th pp commentor C: I'm the king noww

He Ang Erika wrote:

Zak wrote:

they don't gain pp, that's how the system works

They don't gain pp, that's why the system doesn't work looool

By the way I'm 666th pp commentor C: I'm the king noww

What, sure they system isn't accurate but it does work in the sense that if you don't play anything to gain pp, you're going to get passed by people below you.

wampir is too lazy for being on top

Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.

Sleepteiner wrote:

Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.

I understand what you're getting at, and i surely think that high Circle Size (with difficult patterning) should get reconsideration in the future,
but with your Example of "Gravity", that map in itself has a quite easy pattern, the only thing that makes it more difficult is just the small circle size combined with high AR, Plus the little amount of weightening for Accuracy is understandable since its such a short song.

But there are a bunch of other olders maps that are being valued "less?" then they should be
^<-(hard to compare with Difficult maps on high AR&low CS that give a comparable high Star Rating)
(most of them being high CS maps with +DTHR added)
(+HD is not valued enough on these cases if its added...because there is a huge increase of difficulty when High CS Maps are being Played HDDTHR)

like for example:

ArmCannon - Borrow Mega Nuke (Eureka Bong Worm) [Exeter Modem]+DTHR = 4,67Stars
Chrono Cross - Yasunori Mitsuda - Time's Scar [The Whole Mapset]+DTHR = 4-5Stars
Daft Punk - Technologic [Insane]+DTHR = 4,23Stars
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Hard]+DTHR = 4,46Stars
Mindless Self Indulgence - Bullshit [BULLSHIT!]+DTHR = 4,73Stars
Sasaki Nozomi - Cosplay no Kokoroe [Insane]+DTHR = 4,76Stars

But to be honest, im not even sure if those +4Star Ratings are fine, they seem fair...but on special occasions it just feels WAY harder than everything else in its comparable Star Difficulty Range

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

Yea also I think non-hyper jumps should give more pp

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

I've played so many maps that are downright cancer with HD, but can be played well on DT just after a few tries :X E.g. Fallen Angel [SHD] stuff like that. In general HD would give less pp than DT, but certainly should be more than NoMod.

It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.

Clana wrote:

It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.

I agree with that. There are some maps which gives more than 350pp if FC/SS no mod which are easy to do. My actual top score is around 230pp but I'm able to FC Akatsuki no Tsuki Oriental, Piranha or MegaMan map (or 1/2 miss, but I only want SS), which all gives above 350pp, that's ridiculous. I normally don't have the skill to do a >5 stars map so easily with my rank. (#850) I don't say that there're only easys maps above 5 stars but some are easiers than others, for example as Clana said, L is an hard map for me.
I don't mean they're bads maps, no, they're goods and funnys, but they give so much pp for the difficulty that we need to FC them.
+ if we put Hidden or for the really good players HR, we will be easily on the top 100 "without efforts", and that's why a lot of people who plays other mods than CTB said that this mod is easy.
I hope in the future there's some hards maps that even the top 20 have difficulties to get a S on, like an Odoru Mizushibuki [Death Dance] CTB version, it will be very nice I guess !

It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.

I think when Tom or someone else who can actually come help fix things comes around we can get somewhere if they simply put a heavier weight on timing jumps as most players will agree those are usually much harder to hit than hypers a majority of the time. With weighting put to both hyper and non-hyper patterns put properly lots of converted maps will be giving similar pp to ctb maps and rankings will be much more varied.

CelegaS wrote:

It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.

It's not that the devs don't read this thread, it's that there was pretty much only a single person capable of creating the pp formula we currently use, and that person was Tom and he's currently busy with real life. We pretty much need to wait for him to be able to come back or for someone else to come along who is able to adjust the formula accordingly.

I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

.
.
.

It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears

He Ang Erika wrote:

I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

.
.
.

It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears

That specific map hopefully will bring awareness to a need to a new change.
I had a dream where #132 has 10004 pp after 5 or 6 of those maps gets ranked ;(

About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;

PakaChan wrote:

About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;

The interesting part for me now is what penalty Easy has, and why the Effect of DT overweighs it, is it purely based on the AR? or the Mod-Multiplier

I don't believe AR does anything to Star Rating, so I think it's just how much harder DT makes it in the case of EZ turning hypers into ridiculously hard pixel-jumps and DT making the remaining ones even faster.

AR bonus (no mod) could be for just AR9>
AR bonus (HD) 15% AR0-7
AR bonus (HD) 10% AR8-9.5
AR bonus (HD) 5% AR9.5>

The bonuses for HD are fine as they are aside from around 9.5-10, it goes down to too little at that point, and should maybe only drop to around 7% at AR10

PP has failed us....

love the FL boost to pp its great

Yu_Makari wrote:

love the FL boost to pp its great

FL isn't the easiest thing tho. Do you have any tips for FL?

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

119410501 wrote:

Remove PP rankings.

Fucking 3 years ago still true AF

Sorcerer wrote:

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rockversus DT doubletime. A big problem with that is that even with hidden doubletime if you get a Max spin with hard rock you cannot beat it with HD DT unless the map itself has more bananas with double time then it or no mod than it does with hard rock even then it's a stretch a huge problem these days is players like myself as well as higher tier players who have done at least One HR score on any given map and cannot go back to beat it with DT when they feel if they are able to FC. Unless you are referring to a couple of maps even then it's debatable that HR is ever harder than double time referring to a high-ish tier PP play even if you take ExGon's utage HR one miss which is insane don't forget that it would be three times as crazy to FC or SS that with double time even 10 miss would be considered overjoy tier. If you an HD HR FC on oriental with a very good spin and are unable to beat it with HD DT can't you see something is wrong with that?? Hard rock is a garbage mod I am sorry (Not sorry) to everyone that was offended by that I'm sorry to all the farmers that have gotten very far in a broken PP system that's meaningless and spent years learning the mod that is overglorified no mod and that their speciality and their mod of choice is completely and entirely and undebatabley easier than double time if you compare on average a 4 to 5 star map plus with either hard rock or double time on at least AR nine these players who will strive to push the physical speed that can be achieved in CTB will forever be unrewarded due to an inferior mod that everyone seems to like way too much. Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT. At that point it's broken beyond all belief and I have lost all hope. Some people will call this. Post salty due to me not having more than a few HR plays but at the end of the day it's simple facts distorted scythe with hard rock how many players have done that quite a few how many players have done it with doubletime NONE I could either list every other PP map that is been FC with HR or I can not at all because if I need to elaborate any further or you all have serious mental issues and should get yourself checked. OK that was salty but what do you want from me I'm just a guy who's spent 2 1/2 going on three years of my life playing a game that not only was already broken but continues to deteriorate to this day even beyond all repair or any kind of hope can save it's integrity. Has the game been and continues to be today, a waste of time as far as ranking or scoring yes! Is it a waste of time as a fun minigame? yeah in that case enjoy yourself but if you look for any other merit beyond that go play something other than CTB

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

I was aware they didnt say that "I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rock versus DT doubletime." i was just taking what they said and using that to state my point and have some context to my post. it wasn't a direct response to them but it was simply using the topic they had already established as a way to get some background info on what I was writing about.

Don't trash people because you have forgotten how to enjoy the game.

Also, probably the only truly precise way for pp system would be to have a group of (knowledgeable, skilled and incorruptible) players dictate the amount of pp a song should give with all mods.

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Zak wrote:

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Ohh ok, maybe i skipped over that, since I got my information from the coffee hour aswell.
I thought it was more of an invitation for working toghther with certain community Members for a new PP System
Didn't actually hear that they said that they are already in the "beginning stages" of setting things up with community Members

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

Zak wrote:

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

thx i knew i could help if i just put my mind to it im so glad i could figure out a way to resolve this horrible dilemma

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

many map gave less pp but diffcult is much harder.

and then some ctb map gives pp too much.

Amlink wrote:

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Ascendance wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Tbh the pp system is quite fine but it should be slightly changed in terms of how much a convert map gives and how much a ctb map gives ! What I basicly try to explain is that a 6 star convert diff should give the same amount of pp what a 8 star ctb map give !! for example : ( big black fc 6,54 star = any ctb map ~ 8,5 star !

thats my thoughts about that because some ctb maps are quite easy compared to convert maps

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

ignoring pp would be not an option because you play for it or most users !! Also your explaining is not bad but what I mean is simply that we need 2 own ctb pp systems one calculated for ctb (right now is a good system for it) and one for converts

Ascendance wrote:

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

It's kind of hard to just ignore something that the entire community is obsessing over, but there really isn't a good change offered. The community just needs to learn that rank doesn't mean anything when it's just as easy to get 500pp as it is to get 800pp

I'm just gonna leave this here

Just fucking stop holy shit

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

Axiaan wrote:

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

i support this image

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

Could a mod just lock this thread until someone is finally going to tweak the pp system I just don't see the possibility of worthwhile discussion in here.

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

Seph wrote:

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

remove pp not the game remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

neither do the new thousands of people who will never get to know the true game without this farming meta back when i could proudly tell people i played osu now its a joke and anyone i mention it to finds out about how rank works and finds out about how the community is compared to what he or she has heard before and they drop it immedaitly its very selfish for so many users to care so much about something that only has poisned and ruined what i believe ctb was and could still be what a shame that so many people would rather have a number than a chance to save the game and restore it to the second home so many of us spent our time in

I feel having a rank is a really good thing only if the actual pp was accurate or if there was some other way to determine rank or something

I think everyone agrees that converts are much harder than ctb specifics and therefore should have a higher starrating but why exactly is that the case? Obviosly turning a map into a ctb specific does not change anything and will not get a higher starrating in return. The biggest difference in my opinion is that specifics use much more hyperjumps than converts and this is exactly where the problem is with the current difficulty algorhythm.
1. If you look at fullscreenjumps and halfscreenjumps they play exactly the same but the fullscreenjumps give a higher starrating.
2. Edgejumps are way harder to play than hyperjumps but give lower starrating (most of the time)
In order to solve this there is a very simple solution when calculating the difficulty of a map just change every value you'd give a hyperjump to the value you'd give a hyperjumptrigger (a note that is just far away to trigger a hyperdash / slightly higher distance than an edgejump)
In total this would not boost the converts but rather nerf the overwheighted ctb specifics.
Here are 5 difficulties I made (20 notes each) just to show how much starrating every pattern gives:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/739209#fruits/1559894
If you apply what I said for example all the hyperwalk maps would not be 10*+ but rather 3* because they would look like normal streams to the system (exactly how they are played as well)
1 more change I would make. Just let the system ignore notes in the beginning of the map where you do not need to move to catch them.
This would make all those 20-300* maps where you press nothing 0* and also with all the changes I think Der Wald would be an 8-10* map instead of 19* and maybe rankable then.
Just let me know what you think.

Pretty much everything you said has been said here before, it's just we have no one to make a new system at all so we're left with what we have.

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

Gln_Markus wrote:

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

????????? lmao

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

pp is a poopsystem

Gln_Markus wrote:

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

if you can do it you should talk to peppy

Seeing the recent tweaks being proposed for other gamemodes got me interested in seeing if any worthwhile, simple changes could be made for catch. Now any changes to the actual star rating calculation (which are sorely needed) are well beyond my ability but I came up with a few possible tweaks to the performance calculator which I think are worth considering.

I haven't been able to gather any sizeable amount of data on the impact of these changes, if anyone can assist with that it would be hugely appreciated. I do however have a couple of spreadsheets showing some relevant information

This spreadsheet includes a number of example beatmaps with current and proposed PP values

This spreadsheet compares current and proposed multipliers

PP values in these spreadsheets will be around ~1-2pp out due to the examples provided using rounded SR values

Scale accuracy penalty with beatmap total objects

The current accuracy penalty works well enough on shorter beatmaps with less overall objects due to individual droplets having a greater impact on overall accuracy. However with more total objects individual droplets have far less effect as accuracy in catch is just the percentage of objects caught (excluding spinners). Despite there typically being more droplets in a longer map, actual player droplet misses do not increase proportionally with the increase of objects in a map to compensate. As a result the current accuracy penalty is far weaker on higher combo beatmaps.

This proposal aims to scale the penalty with the number of total objects in a map (that contribute to accuracy) so the penalty remains relevant on longer maps. This helps to add more variety between player's performances and relatively buffs SS and high accuracy plays on longer maps.

Note that this still doesn't do anything to consider how difficult the droplets are to catch as calculating that would require changes to the actual catch difficulty calculation.

Example graph of penalty at 3000 total objects

Hidden bonus adjustments
Hidden is a bit of a mixed bag for players, it's incredibly difficult for some and can be considered a reading aid for others. Balancing that aspect of Hidden is always going to be tricky, however it's commonly agreed Hidden is easier at high AR values and much harder at lower. This proposal aims mostly at reducing the Hidden bonus at very high AR values(9.5+), whilst consequently buffing low AR values.

Current hidden bonus is 5% at AR10 and above, increasing an additional 7.5% for each AR below 10
Proposed bonus is 2.5% at AR10, increasing an additional 9% for each AR below 10, and reducing to 1% at AR11

This graph shows how the proposed bonus compares. It's virtually the same bonus at ~AR8.2, increased below it and decreased above it.

Approach Rate bonus scaling above AR10
Approach Rate bonus scaling currently gives a linear bonus from AR 9 to 11. This proposal gives an additional bonus to AR values above 10, scaling from a 1.1 modifier at AR10 to a 1.25 modifier at AR11, up from 1.2 because being Sonic is not easy. Going above AR10 gets increasingly difficult with each increment and this change helps reflect that.

Relevant graph. This change is interesting when looked at with the hidden adjustments. Overall PP values for scores with hidden remain similar but plays without see a fair boost bringing the two much closer together.


Thoughts, questions, and feedback are all very welcome

HD bonus must be increased basically. ( example, not exact %. it's approximate % https://puu.sh/AnJFc/4c90ea2f11.png )
my thought on AR bonus is same with socerer

+ increase FL bonus
it's too low for now

+ increase non-hyper patterns bonus ( especially hard-edge jumps after hyper dash )
after hyper dash, move next fruit to opposite side a little during pp calculating (not in real)

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

I will probably add a few more comments later, need to go for now

posting stuff to fix that's been posted in thread a lot of times already doesn't really give anything helpful to the system, since we already know what the problems are, it's fixing them that's the issue

sorcerer's suggestions are good specifically because they are actual changes, and not just stating problems

that being said i do agree with changes proposed by sorcerer

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

In my opinion, I think HDFL needs have to have bonus multiplier (and maybe pp?). It really isn't easy to master the 2 mods

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

And I'm a low acc player xD

PakaChan wrote:

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

by should i mean shouldn't (why can't i edit my post?)

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.
EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.


HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

AR9 (AR9.5 for the extreme) HD is like nomod, what does it change ? The AR is already fast enough not to notice anything, and AR10 HD is a joke, more of a help than anything else.

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

Asriel wrote:

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I'm totally against this.
Accuracy is something that should be important in this game, and it should be reflected in the pp.
If you're just a ppfarmer spamming fast DT overdose in hope you'll FC it, yeah good job get pp.
Lets just take this map for exemple, Endless Hatred.
How much person have SS'd it ? 3.
How much person have FC'd it ? 38.

So, maybe there is something hard in this map other than FC ? Maybe avoiding droplet missing isn't that easy ?

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.


will edit the post if I think of something else

Droplets are important imo bye

Would be great if you could change the droplets being placed in the editor. Sometimes it doesn't fit the music. Even though you try to change the slider to make the slider fit the music it just doesnt come out the way you think. For high bpm maps it's easier to make the droplet shapes you want but for low bpm maps its a pain.

Hey. Yesterday i just explored the osu!catch code and I found out that it was really hard to edit anything when you can't understand the half of the values that are used in each functions lol
I think that the only way to change the code is to take a good dev and tell him to explore the whole osu! code to understand everything, or someone from the staff who knows well how the performance works. It's out of reach for me.

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

Why? Because I don't want to be forced to play the same 5 maps over and over again to rank up. With this idea, those beatmaps will be less "obligatory" and people will have to do more scores to get the same amount of PP.

How? I just took the final PP value as a PP base and edited it with this short program:
So, higher are the PP, higher the PP reduction will be (it's proportional to the base PP amount).

Obviously, someone could make the same thing more efficiently but it was just to illustrate the idea ^^

Here is the google sheet of my tests: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'll come back with some other ideas if I can find anything else ^^

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Basically use this idea here, but apply it to star ratings instead. You could fix two systems at once.

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

It'd be better if more technical maps that rely more on challenging patterns had a more accurate star rating to match, and in turn give an appropriate amount of pp.

Sinnoh wrote:

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

Ttobas wrote:

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.

EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.

EZ is going to remain tragically under rated until we can start making SR changes. A slight buff to the low AR Bonus isn't unreasonable and I'll update the spreadsheets to include one. The effect will be minimal though and we do need to consider not over rewarding lower diffs such as Cups or equivalent where the AR has less of an impact on difficulty.

Ttobas wrote:

HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

Absolutely, the buff to low AR HD is mostly a side effect of nerfing high AR HD. Which is absolutely fine, a buff to low AR HD isn't unwarranted but its impact will be very minimal

Ttobas wrote:

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

I took some time to play about with the FL buff but I can't reach numbers I'm happy with. Ideally the bonus would be a curve reducing at higher AR where memorisation is the primary factor but I cannot get the numbers to bend to my will. Scaling the bonus further to account for short maps (sub 200 combo) should be simple enough. If anyone can help out here that would be really appreciated

Worth pointing out that the current FL bonus doesn't account for AR at all and still applies the base AR bonus, meaning the FL bonus actually increases slightly as AR gets lower when comparing AR values under 8

Ttobas wrote:

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.

There's no need to really, the penalty for misses and not achieving max combo will decimate pp values on a non-fc play, the acc penalty at that point is tiny in comparison

PakaChan wrote:

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns shouldn't* have the same length bonus

SPOILER

Absolutely, I did initially look at adjusting the length bonus but was unsure if it was the right thing to do but I hadn't really thought about the point you raised.

In other gamemodes where every object, no matter how hard or easy it is, requires an input then scaling the length bonus with max combo works fairly well. But this doesn't apply to CtB where there's no guarantee that a note requires any sort of movement.

The ideal solution would be to calculate the length bonus in the actual difficulty calculator and only include objects that require movements, but any changes to the difficulty calculator look incredibly unlikely until it's ported to lazer.

Using total drain time instead has similar drawbacks to max combo but is probably more exploitable. It's easy to pad a map with long sliders in slow sections or long spinners.

For lack of a better solution I'll propose a nerf to the length bonus instead. It's quite strong right now and doesn't exactly achieve what it's intending to

F D Flourite wrote:

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

Despite the variation of droplets from the slider path (which makes me very sad), they're still the same for everyone and still require skill to catch. They require more precise and accurate movements across sliders and better control of the catcher's momentum when you hyper into them. I absolutely believe catching droplets takes an amount of skill and that skill should be rewarded

bastoo0 wrote:

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

This is quite interesting, atleast as a band-aid proposal to lessen the effects of the very inaccurate difficulty calculator we currently have. This does however go against the nature of SR a bit, where a higher SR map awards more pp under the assumption it's harder to fc. But currently the vast majority of high SR maps, about 8+, get their SR from hilariously over rated patterns which are usually high BPM streams, most others are using 2B elements which straight up breaks SR. This is definitely worth exploring some more

ChickenChanS wrote:

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Star rating calculation changes aren't too feasible right now and are more complicated than pp calculation changes so for now I'm working with what I can. Saying that, current SR calculation does infact rate edge dashes quite strong, it's just it only does so for extreme edge dashes. Try it out in the editor using dashes right on the border of being a hyperdash, there'll be a noticeable increase in SR. It looks like the difficulty calculator is too strict with what it considers an edge dash but there could well be a reason for doing so

Sorry for reviving this thread,

Users' Convert records have been considerably reduced since ppv2 I think,
as harder(or more pp-giving) ctb maps has come out, people lost motivation to play convert songs
what do you think if current pp ranking is divided into two (one for osu! catch specific pp ranking, one for osu! convert pp ranking) ?

I'm okay with this decision but we need to fix the star rating first because it's broken as hell.

either we get separate pp or convert mapping pp gets a bit buffed (not only hyper spams but leftrights-fast sliders)

+1

it's not done in any other mode, and it shouldn't be done for catch the beat. whether it's a specific or a convert, you're still playing catch the beat, so there's no point in splitting it into two different leaderboards. it would be like splitting mania into 4k only and 7k only leaderboards. yeah, 7k gives more pp than 4k, but you're playing mania either way.

Ascendance wrote:

it's not done in any other mode, and it shouldn't be done for catch the beat. whether it's a specific or a convert, you're still playing catch the beat, so there's no point in splitting it into two different leaderboards. it would be like splitting mania into 4k only and 7k only leaderboards. yeah, 7k gives more pp than 4k, but you're playing mania either way.

I mean, you're not wrong. But I am not opposed to 1, fixing or readjusting the star rating, 2, buffing the pp received from said converts, because too many are underweighted or even under their true star rating.
Just my 10c, I know nothing of what I'm talking about!

I can agree to SR fix or buffing convert pp (especially the former, the latter is kinda meh whatever to me since converts aren't really meant for catch in the first place), but yeah I can't support a separate leaderboard.

revert back to score ranking lul

Saw some rumblings around about the need for a catch PP rework again so figured I’d share some thoughts on what I’ve been messing around with the past few months using a version of lazer that produces “mostly” accurate SR values.


It’s just gone past the four year mark for when catch star rating and performance points were overhauled in late 2014. Whilst the SR changes were at the time a huge improvement over the previous version, it has become painfully clear that catch SR still has big issues with representing the difficulty of a beatmap.

So in an attempt to inspire some hope in a community that has mostly given up on ever seeing a much needed “PP rework” I wanted to talk about some actual possible changes to the SR calculation. Keep in mind I’m no programmer or mathematician, I don’t have a solid understanding of how half this system works but I’m still confident I have found areas that can be improved.

I haven’t included any values here due to the limited setup I’ve been using, this is more for an idea of a starting point and what changes are worth pursuing.

Edge Dash Bonus
Currently maps with numerous edge dashes (regular dashes that are very close to the hyperdash trigger distance) are very underrated. There’s an existing bonus for edge dashes but it’s simply not big enough, increasing this is an easy fix but tuning the exact amount will require some trial and error.

Hyperdash Bonus
There’s currently a small bonus for both hypderdashes and edge dashes on a direction change. This bonus doesn’t do much for edge dashes but the bonus really adds up in higher difficulty specifics where hypderashes are frequent. Whilst hypderdashes are challenging for new players, a bonus like this gets too large on Overdose level difficulties where the hyperdash itself is not difficult but rather how it’s used.

Splitting this bonus into separate bonuses for edge dashes and hyperdashes allows for better tuning of both. Greatly reducing the hyperdash bonus really helps to bring down the inflated SR values for specifics vs converts/hyperdashless maps.

(Hypderdash bonus only applies on direction changes so hypderdash chains don’t get even sillier than they already are)

Speed Scaling
This is a simple issue, catch SR scales too much with speed. High BPM is overrated and part of why maps like Image Material have such high star ratings. Reducing the base speed scaling but keeping the speed scaling on direction changes similar is probably the best approach to balancing this.

Some maps are fairly dependant on speed and reducing the scaling can result in them being relatively underrated so tuning this will take some real trial and error. Though after four years of speed being so dominant I don’t think too many people would mind such a meta shake up.

A big limitation of the setup I used is the inability to test mods. I simply don’t know how changing speed scaling would affect doubletime and halftime but I’d assume reducing speed scaling would nerf doubletime. As far as I understand the difficulty calculator doesn’t currently consider the change in catcher speed, just the change in speed of the map. Adding a catcher speed scaling factor is probably the way to go about balancing DT and HT.

Direction Change Bonus
This would be the biggest change as it’s not just value tweaking but adjusting the logic. Currently there’s a bonus when there’s a direction change, which makes sense but due to the simple logic it leads to flowing patterns getting a much larger bonus than antiflow patterns. Compare these two patterns and where the direction changes are.

The “flow” pattern on the left is easier because the direction change is made on the note after the hyperdash finishes so the speed boost from the hyperdash is gone.

The “antiflow” pattern is noticeably harder, it requires more precise movements to make the direction change whilst hyperdashing because of the speed boost.

Despite this, the bonus is being applied to the movement after the direction change (represented with a black line) and doesn’t consider the movement before it. This leads to the flow pattern getting an enormous boost whilst the antiflow pattern sees very little. By scaling the direction change bonus with the distance and speed of the movement before it we now have a method to consider flow and antiflow patterns.

This seems very promising in the limited testing I’ve been able to do. The infamous flow stream pattern seen above is no longer the ticket to big SR values like it is now and antiflow patterns are actually rewarded.

Balancing this scaling is not easy. I saw good results from having a base direction change bonus that functions like the current but much smaller and then a much larger bonus that scales based on the movement before the direction change (antiflow). This ensures flowing direction changes still contribute to SR which is important for lower difficulties.

Widely Spaced Stacks
This is the best term I could come up with to describe a pattern like this as seen in Sing’s Master on Getty vs. DJ DiA – DropZ-Line-

Check it out in editor at 01:15:002 (1) -. Deleting this one slider reduces the star rating from 9.40 to 5.60

Stacks like these can be caught without requiring any movement from the player yet despite this they massively inflate the overall SR. The tricky bit is the initial positioning of the catcher, after that there’s no input required yet the longer and denser the stack, the greater the SR.

This is an issue currently on live, though only on a handful of ranked beatmaps, but it can become even worse when tweaking values like the edge dash bonus. It’s a bug and it needs a fix.

My proposed solution works like this:

- Check for direction change
- Check if distance of movement is <= catcher size
- Check if distance of current movement is equal to distance of previous movement
- Scale SR addition by time, 1.00x at 100ms down to 0.00x at 50ms

This could be considered a hacky solution but I was surprised by how well it appears to work. The checks try best to isolate the conditions of these stacks. They’re usually created by sliders, hence the requirement for identical distances, and it scales with speed because that’s when this bug really gets silly. The impact on innocent beatmaps seems very minimal if there’s any at all though I’ve not been able to check all too thoroughly.


Hopefully this can help provide a starting point for changes and show that the situation isn’t as hopeless as you might think. These changes won’t fix everything, but they should shake up the meta for the better and bring better balance to converts vs specifics.

Sadly, until catch star rating on lazer matches stable there’s not much work that can be done as all the tools provided for PP development are dependant on lazer. But once that’s fixed I hope there’s enough interest to get a group together with the know-how to actually start making some improvements.

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

You are right, I tried to access the osu!dev Discord server but my application was refused.

There are some good points but you also forgot about some more. Especially with Spinners (pp should be also add like in ppv1 what rank you get in a map that would also makes spinning again famous because spinner is currently so underrated .And also some different mods especially easy and flashlight. What I personally understand about your points is just an improvement of the current system what is ok but it wont change that much . In my opinion the whole pp system needs a big rework of the current system because there wasnt any change since years and I can give you 2 examples why no changes kills a game (starcraft 2 and Pubg pc version because there was not really big changes.) in the past especially 2013-2014 there were a lot of changes and it really gave that game I would say the golden time cuz of these often changes .

DakkyChan wrote:

There are some good points but you also forgot about some more. Especially with Spinners (pp should be also add like in ppv1 what rank you get in a map that would also makes spinning again famous because spinner is currently so underrated .And also some different mods especially easy and flashlight. What I personally understand about your points is just an improvement of the current system what is ok but it wont change that much . In my opinion the whole pp system needs a big rework of the current system because there wasnt any change since years and I can give you 2 examples why no changes kills a game (starcraft 2 and Pubg pc version because there was not really big changes.) in the past especially 2013-2014 there were a lot of changes and it really gave that game I would say the golden time cuz of these often changes .

Spinning definitely should give pp indeed, it's really sad that there are just a handful of people aiming to get a good spin and actually retry the map to improve their spin.

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

There's nothing proposed yet, still have to wait for updates to lazer until any real work can begin. I just posted here to give people an idea of what changes we can expect once catch SR on lazer matches stable.

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

Sorcerer wrote:

Nelly wrote:

One problem. How can osu! team notice your proposal on forums if it's required to be posted on osu!dev Discord server?

There's nothing proposed yet, still have to wait for updates to lazer until any real work can begin. I just posted here to give people an idea of what changes we can expect once catch SR on lazer matches stable.

Isn't any modification possible on the current osu! release? I'd try to do something if I figure out how to compile the osu! code and how the system works.

Ascendance wrote:

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

What are you saying?
This game won't die just because of a pp change... Maybe some people will leave but considering how many people are leaving because of the current pp system, I don't think it's a big deal.

Ascendance wrote:

it's funny cuz starcraft 2 died because of large changes made that drove the majority away. the vocal minority are people who want a rework of the pp system. small improvements like sorcerer is proposing will do enough. we won't go back to ppv1 and the likelihood of a complete rework is slim to none, and for good reason.

Nah I dont agree with this at all in the past we had multiply changes. First one (hyperdash changes) (old one to new one) then we had the first pp system where you had to be rank 1 on certain maps to get a lot of pp and then one year later we had the changes idk if you have be already there at that time when we had the jumpping meta (edge jump meta) so and some later it got changed again I think in the end of 2014 . And because of this always it had ALWAYS to most Players a positive influence to the game itself and it made new people and people that are already there enjoying it a lot. most mappers from the community have created new specialized patterns for the pp ranking to push the limits of it and that brang so much hype to see the new to pp plays .But because of non changes new maps become more boring to play (like in my perspective I see a new ctb map nah its always the same pattern I dont download it and thats not only the case for me I think . So the hype got lost since there is nothing new and there are NO changes at all so casual players arent playing for long and quit quiet quickly . Also old players gets eventually bored about this and quits pp farming and secondly then the whole game . (ofc not all ) but a lot people have quitted due this all . So and thats why I even try to find a new system it doesnt matter really how it is but it has to be a big change to change the whole meta since then mapping becomes more much more favourite again especially when big mappers like you doing a new map because they see maybe new pattern styles and that would eventually ends then again into a big hype and the whole game will be reborn from what it is now because now it is 100% not very alive .

@bastoo0: https://github.com/ppy/osu-performance

My Vision of a future System would be or Idea is making rankings in the top 50 more popular but also have it like the same system like it is right now so it would also make spinners more favourite and some other things too . And also the advantage of ppv1 and why we need some kind of that is because when in the past a new ctb spefic came out what wasnt so hard maybe but if it gives pp because the rank 1 is important a lot of people will play this map and it also makes specifics popular again like I mentioned

without pp what is osu its in the name of who created it XD why would u even consider removing it how u meant to show wht u earned overall

I appreciate reviving an old discussion, but I don't think this was at all constructive, or even in reference to the replies above... These kinda discussions are housed on the osu!dev discord more often than not, so I would encourage people to go there

I have a sugestion for a PP Tweak where the TLDR is; Each miss reduces the pp gained by x amount of the base FC value as opposed to completely negating a score.
The full read is https://www.dropbox.com/s/9ekc7fazmb22dqm/CTB%20PP%20Tweak%20Suggestion.rtf?dl=0 (Should be able to read online)