He Ang Erika wrote:

8. OD in all other modes: E.g. AT OD10 if you hit the object more/less than 15ms in timing you miss, that applies for every combo. For OD9 may be 20ms.
OD in CTB: Pattern A requires player to just move left by 3 platter length and you are given 5 seconds to do so. And then 3 more seconds to move right 1 platter length away. Easy. Pattern B requires player to move left right left right consecutively 20 times with 10ms of error window for each combo. Hard. Other modes use Meter OD, which is a fixed timing window exactly the same for every combo, that is invariable. CTB uses Pattern OD, which is dependent on how much room for timing error to successfully get from one combo to another, which varies with different combos. Meter OD has no effect on difficult, while Pattern OD affects difficulty. The harder the pattern, the less forgiving the timing, the more difficult the map becomes.
Conclusion (8): Harder pattern = less room for timing error.
Conclusion (9): Harder pattern deserves more pp.

I don't think it would work like that, rapid direction changes which is mostly what gives pp in this system: hypers are what need the most movement in the least amount of time.

Rather than a hyper nerf or buff, i propose a non-hyper buff, a non-hyper jump seems to be harder the closer it is to being a hyper but once it's a hyper it's easy. Bonus points if you just come out of a hyper before this. Exgon agrees (kinda): http://ask.fm/ExGon/answer/121910772785

Aside from that, i see a lot of people saying that EZ should be nerfed but really, the only map that seems like an issue is banned forever which isn't exactly an EZ-issue but rather the algorithm thinking the hell-ish pattern can't be done without standing still. Fix that part of the algorithm and ez will be fair. EZDT on high cs already gives less pp than nomod, as for low cs, i think ezdt is harder.

Of course there are a lot more questions left unanswered by my conclusions.
1. What is consider too high/too low AR?
2. Is AR difficulty more subjective or objective?
3. Which are the patterns that are less forgiving?
4. Since every combo has different timing error window, how does one accurately account for the overall difficulty of a map containing thousands of combos?
5. I find low CS as hard to read as high CS, is that not a valid point?
6. What is the easiest CS/AR to benchmark on?
7. How does modifiers (mods) affect the above mentioned parameters?
8. How does spinners and droplets play a part in the pp system?
9. So many things to change so much work to be done, is that even possible?
10. Is it worth the effort to strive for a perfect pp system?
11. Is difficulty overall a subjective matter of pure human experience, or is it simply a matter of neurology mathematics and physics, or maybe both?
12. Should we scale elements that are or potentially could be subjective as objective pp?
13. WTF were you talking about the whole time, were you smoking weed?

1. I don't think there's a too low or too high AR. I think it all depends on the object density of the map (especially for lower ones). AR9 may be good for ~200bpm, AR10 FOR 300bpm.
2. Subjective. Everyone will find AR they aren't comfortable hard.
3. Emphasis on "patterns". Pattern detection is a huge problem in standard and it will be. Tom attempted to detect neu-like patterns which made stuff like banned forever EZ rated so highly. There's a ton of patterns that you'd have to detect but i guess the most common ones are stairs.
6. Depends on the map.
7. Right now, for HR: the algorithm simply recalculates the entire map as if it's a new difficulty. HD bonus seems fine, maybe needs a buff for high cs. Not sure how DT works or how it's supposed to work.
8. Spinners do not and should not affect pp. Droplets only seem to be a real issue on shorter maps. The thing about making droplets worth a lot is the fact that you could SS a map you have 97% acc on but not outspin yourself which can be frustrating
9.One at a time.

I think the HD bonus should decrease slower while going higher than AR9, at AR9 the bonus is around 12% and then once it's at AR10 it's only 5% which is way too low, a lot of people can use the argument that HD is easier to read at that AR but it doesn't mean the map itself becomes easier to play, it will still be harder and deserves a bit more of an increase in pp, I'd say maybe 8~9%, 5% is practically non-existant.

I'm so bad with hd i should have +50% pp bonus.

Can we keep the discussion serious please.

Agree with Paka on non-hyper hard jumps. These are really underrated.

As what Paka said, a normal dash which is just on a borderline from being a hyperdash is very hard and requires a sharp reaction time.

Mostly from converts like Hollow Wings' Sentimental Skyscraper and Alumetorz's furioso melodia which had alot of that type of dashes, which is very underrated.

Yeah, there should probably be some specific values set onto them, to where most average jumps still won't give much but near pixel jumps will, especially consecutive ones or back and forth jumps with hypers and normal jumps mixed together, those get particularly nasty.

Axiaan wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

5. An AR too low confuses the player as the platter becomes "slippery" (moves way too fast as compared to the dropping fruits), the fruits are harder to read and timings are harder to judge.

I disagree with that, it's maybe hard for some players to read low AR (for me, low AR is under 6) but that's the same with players who can't play with high AR, (above 9.5) it's hard for them.

I agree with He Ang Erika, for high ar it's a different thing. It's more about time reaction and guessing pattern/be familiar with them, that's my feeling. For low ar with high bpm it's really difficult to judge timing between fruits by reading.


Pixel jump was nerfed a little but they are missed in diff algo. There is 3 thing about them.
Most of the time you need to know when they start.
Higher BPM, harder to maintain accuracy to catch them. (banned forever)
Hdash before pixel jump, faster hdash, shorter timing to catch correctly. (rainbow dash)

For diff calculation i think a possible way is to see difficulty of pattern 3 by 3 fruits and find a way to have a global diff.

Equim wrote:

Partially. But tentatively as a ctb mapper/modder I can tell you that jumps as you said "irregularly" are still experimental, and ctb stream mapping is also so hard to be creative that only one or two ctb mappers can handle this. It's easy to SAY, but it's hard to DO.
Remember, everyone has his own way to enjoy this game. Some enjoy jumps, while some enjoy patherns like you; some enjoy pp, while some don't. While I was a beginner I did enjoy hyperdashes which I thought were cool, and I tried my best to do well in them. Anyways you need to respect to the diversity.
Also, whether you love pp or hate, it's always that you care pp. I suggest you don't always judge a ctb specific map according to pp, since in this way you are likely to ignore what painstaking care the mapper pay in the map. In this point of view I can't agree more with Spectator (see his ask http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128855444064 and http://ask.fm/Spectat0r/answer/128938149472). In addition, sooner or later the pp arithmetic system will changed, but the quality of a map will still remain.

I respect all mappers,spec's ctb maps can lead new players to join us quickly.His maps should be respected,but I just wanna new PP system decreases this type of ctb maps a little to guide new players correctly.CTB maps can be made into different kinds.Some maps contains so many red
fruits,some maps contains hard patterns and you needs high APM.

Overall,I sincerely bless all CTB mappers to show your own style,don't be shy!

Now PP system has something unfair,I just point it .

How did you find where I show anything rude to any mappers?

Mappers need to hurt their brains to share their ideas , just the new system needs to judge their maps more correctly.

That is what I expect. I love this game and I wanna this game more perfectly.

You know ,the official rules can control your mind ,we need to fix the pp system and make the game filled with charm !

I am weak at Ctb but ! I am not a coward ! I can reply to you : I don't care about PP ! because I just wanna be a HD DT pro player, why should I care about PP ? Challenges are enough to me!

I say again : I love this game deeply and wanna her more perfectly.

We are members of this warm family,shouldn't we love her and take care of her ?

Random speech, but I have to agree with you. Also, any (un)ranked map is good as long as at least one player enjoys the map.

hey there, is this still alive?

yea, but there is just not much to add anymore, since we almost mentioned every problem...
plus Tom is focusing on University as far as i know, so he won't have the time to do anything about it

Mr pepsi did say last year he had a group of people looking into the pp system as a whole. I guess it's still too early in the year to go asking for in-depth updates about it.

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

He Ang Erika wrote:

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

Gonna have to disagree about spins giving pp due to the fact that I'm sure it's really hard for the game to determine how good your spin actually is and I doubt it can calculate what the best humanly possible spin is.

Accuracy already gives bonus pp.

Zak wrote:

He Ang Erika wrote:

I think spins should reward 0% to 5%pp dependent on how close to max spin. High accuracies should also reward 0 to 5%pp dependent on how close to 100% Accuracy.

It doesn't have to cap at 5% though, just a arbitrary number D:

Gonna have to disagree about spins giving pp due to the fact that I'm sure it's really hard for the game to determine how good your spin actually is and I doubt it can calculate what the best humanly possible spin is.

Accuracy already gives bonus pp.

I'm not sure about how the current system can account for spinners, but mathematically it's very easy to calculate max spin using basic trigonometry. In fact a good spinster can count max spin just based on pure human judgement which is almost flawlessly correct in nearly all patterns. I would say that based on how salad! catches bananas it seems that the system doesn't really include a max spin calculator, but hopefully whenever the engineers find their time they can add on an undisplayed bananas counter and make some pp. I think that the CTB spinner is very unique and heavily skill/experience oriented, to have it just affect score is rather under-appreciated D:

I think the possibility of a good spin making you go from not even top 8 all the way to rank 1 is plenty enough.

Zak wrote:

I think the possibility of a good spin making you go from not even top 8 all the way to rank 1 is plenty enough.

Often on very hard songs where there are only a few NoMod scores or very easy songs with a bunch of HDHRDT scores, spinners can give you good ranking on the scoreboard, but as for the rest having good spinner has to be coupled with good mods usually if not always involving HD. Otherwise neither getting pp nor top score is very viable. E.g. A NoMod score with ridiculous spin on [Overdose] will be easily pushed off the Top 50 within like a month. DT spinner can hardly outplay or even level HD spinners. HR will bring your score far up, but however good a HR spin it will be dominated by HDHR in the end. To have a ridiculous spin just squeezed away is really unfortunate, at the least a little pp will do some good. Spinner rewards should not be greater or even close to HD rewards or any other score multiplying mods, but I still think that other than 1100 score which is tiny compared to mods, slight pp boost will make pushed-off-the-board mad spins feel more deserving of praise and appreciation.

I would like to see this topic revived, there is not dumb that this pp-sytem is just bad.

BoberOfDarkness wrote:

I would like to see this topic revived, there is not dumb that this pp-sytem is just bad.

Not much to say that wasn't said already.

pp still needs many changes D: The discussion is still important.

When can I see players like Clara Kyptoric VelperK CLSW wampir Emiru geraldwch e0486 Setomi etc in tops :C

Knowledge is important, but having good data to work on is importanter.

The main reason we don't need discussion at this time is because it won't get much done, we have to wait until Tom (or someone else) who has the time and ability to reshape the system again comes along to do so, but at the same time, most issues that are currently there have already been brought up and will likely be looked over by whoever changes the system again.

Also the reason you don't see those players at the top is because they don't gain pp, that's how the system works, unless you keep gaining, your rank drops further and further.

Zak wrote:

they don't gain pp, that's how the system works

They don't gain pp, that's why the system doesn't work looool

By the way I'm 666th pp commentor C: I'm the king noww

He Ang Erika wrote:

Zak wrote:

they don't gain pp, that's how the system works

They don't gain pp, that's why the system doesn't work looool

By the way I'm 666th pp commentor C: I'm the king noww

What, sure they system isn't accurate but it does work in the sense that if you don't play anything to gain pp, you're going to get passed by people below you.

wampir is too lazy for being on top

Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.

Sleepteiner wrote:

Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.

I understand what you're getting at, and i surely think that high Circle Size (with difficult patterning) should get reconsideration in the future,
but with your Example of "Gravity", that map in itself has a quite easy pattern, the only thing that makes it more difficult is just the small circle size combined with high AR, Plus the little amount of weightening for Accuracy is understandable since its such a short song.

But there are a bunch of other olders maps that are being valued "less?" then they should be
^<-(hard to compare with Difficult maps on high AR&low CS that give a comparable high Star Rating)
(most of them being high CS maps with +DTHR added)
(+HD is not valued enough on these cases if its added...because there is a huge increase of difficulty when High CS Maps are being Played HDDTHR)

like for example:

ArmCannon - Borrow Mega Nuke (Eureka Bong Worm) [Exeter Modem]+DTHR = 4,67Stars
Chrono Cross - Yasunori Mitsuda - Time's Scar [The Whole Mapset]+DTHR = 4-5Stars
Daft Punk - Technologic [Insane]+DTHR = 4,23Stars
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Hard]+DTHR = 4,46Stars
Mindless Self Indulgence - Bullshit [BULLSHIT!]+DTHR = 4,73Stars
Sasaki Nozomi - Cosplay no Kokoroe [Insane]+DTHR = 4,76Stars

But to be honest, im not even sure if those +4Star Ratings are fine, they seem fair...but on special occasions it just feels WAY harder than everything else in its comparable Star Difficulty Range

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

Yea also I think non-hyper jumps should give more pp

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with

I've played so many maps that are downright cancer with HD, but can be played well on DT just after a few tries :X E.g. Fallen Angel [SHD] stuff like that. In general HD would give less pp than DT, but certainly should be more than NoMod.

It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.

Clana wrote:

It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.

I agree with that. There are some maps which gives more than 350pp if FC/SS no mod which are easy to do. My actual top score is around 230pp but I'm able to FC Akatsuki no Tsuki Oriental, Piranha or MegaMan map (or 1/2 miss, but I only want SS), which all gives above 350pp, that's ridiculous. I normally don't have the skill to do a >5 stars map so easily with my rank. (#850) I don't say that there're only easys maps above 5 stars but some are easiers than others, for example as Clana said, L is an hard map for me.
I don't mean they're bads maps, no, they're goods and funnys, but they give so much pp for the difficulty that we need to FC them.
+ if we put Hidden or for the really good players HR, we will be easily on the top 100 "without efforts", and that's why a lot of people who plays other mods than CTB said that this mod is easy.
I hope in the future there's some hards maps that even the top 20 have difficulties to get a S on, like an Odoru Mizushibuki [Death Dance] CTB version, it will be very nice I guess !

It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.

I think when Tom or someone else who can actually come help fix things comes around we can get somewhere if they simply put a heavier weight on timing jumps as most players will agree those are usually much harder to hit than hypers a majority of the time. With weighting put to both hyper and non-hyper patterns put properly lots of converted maps will be giving similar pp to ctb maps and rankings will be much more varied.

CelegaS wrote:

It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.

It's not that the devs don't read this thread, it's that there was pretty much only a single person capable of creating the pp formula we currently use, and that person was Tom and he's currently busy with real life. We pretty much need to wait for him to be able to come back or for someone else to come along who is able to adjust the formula accordingly.

I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

.
.
.

It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears

He Ang Erika wrote:

I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

.
.
.

It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears

That specific map hopefully will bring awareness to a need to a new change.
I had a dream where #132 has 10004 pp after 5 or 6 of those maps gets ranked ;(

About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;

PakaChan wrote:

About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;

The interesting part for me now is what penalty Easy has, and why the Effect of DT overweighs it, is it purely based on the AR? or the Mod-Multiplier

I don't believe AR does anything to Star Rating, so I think it's just how much harder DT makes it in the case of EZ turning hypers into ridiculously hard pixel-jumps and DT making the remaining ones even faster.

AR bonus (no mod) could be for just AR9>
AR bonus (HD) 15% AR0-7
AR bonus (HD) 10% AR8-9.5
AR bonus (HD) 5% AR9.5>

The bonuses for HD are fine as they are aside from around 9.5-10, it goes down to too little at that point, and should maybe only drop to around 7% at AR10

PP has failed us....

love the FL boost to pp its great

Yu_Makari wrote:

love the FL boost to pp its great

FL isn't the easiest thing tho. Do you have any tips for FL?

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

119410501 wrote:

Remove PP rankings.

Fucking 3 years ago still true AF

Sorcerer wrote:

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp

8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.

I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rockversus DT doubletime. A big problem with that is that even with hidden doubletime if you get a Max spin with hard rock you cannot beat it with HD DT unless the map itself has more bananas with double time then it or no mod than it does with hard rock even then it's a stretch a huge problem these days is players like myself as well as higher tier players who have done at least One HR score on any given map and cannot go back to beat it with DT when they feel if they are able to FC. Unless you are referring to a couple of maps even then it's debatable that HR is ever harder than double time referring to a high-ish tier PP play even if you take ExGon's utage HR one miss which is insane don't forget that it would be three times as crazy to FC or SS that with double time even 10 miss would be considered overjoy tier. If you an HD HR FC on oriental with a very good spin and are unable to beat it with HD DT can't you see something is wrong with that?? Hard rock is a garbage mod I am sorry (Not sorry) to everyone that was offended by that I'm sorry to all the farmers that have gotten very far in a broken PP system that's meaningless and spent years learning the mod that is overglorified no mod and that their speciality and their mod of choice is completely and entirely and undebatabley easier than double time if you compare on average a 4 to 5 star map plus with either hard rock or double time on at least AR nine these players who will strive to push the physical speed that can be achieved in CTB will forever be unrewarded due to an inferior mod that everyone seems to like way too much. Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT. At that point it's broken beyond all belief and I have lost all hope. Some people will call this. Post salty due to me not having more than a few HR plays but at the end of the day it's simple facts distorted scythe with hard rock how many players have done that quite a few how many players have done it with doubletime NONE I could either list every other PP map that is been FC with HR or I can not at all because if I need to elaborate any further or you all have serious mental issues and should get yourself checked. OK that was salty but what do you want from me I'm just a guy who's spent 2 1/2 going on three years of my life playing a game that not only was already broken but continues to deteriorate to this day even beyond all repair or any kind of hope can save it's integrity. Has the game been and continues to be today, a waste of time as far as ranking or scoring yes! Is it a waste of time as a fun minigame? yeah in that case enjoy yourself but if you look for any other merit beyond that go play something other than CTB

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.

Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.

I was aware they didnt say that "I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rock versus DT doubletime." i was just taking what they said and using that to state my point and have some context to my post. it wasn't a direct response to them but it was simply using the topic they had already established as a way to get some background info on what I was writing about.

Don't trash people because you have forgotten how to enjoy the game.

Also, probably the only truly precise way for pp system would be to have a group of (knowledgeable, skilled and incorruptible) players dictate the amount of pp a song should give with all mods.

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?

From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Zak wrote:

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.

Ohh ok, maybe i skipped over that, since I got my information from the coffee hour aswell.
I thought it was more of an invitation for working toghther with certain community Members for a new PP System
Didn't actually hear that they said that they are already in the "beginning stages" of setting things up with community Members

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

Zak wrote:

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again

Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself

thx i knew i could help if i just put my mind to it im so glad i could figure out a way to resolve this horrible dilemma

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

many map gave less pp but diffcult is much harder.

and then some ctb map gives pp too much.

Amlink wrote:

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Ascendance wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Tbh the pp system is quite fine but it should be slightly changed in terms of how much a convert map gives and how much a ctb map gives ! What I basicly try to explain is that a 6 star convert diff should give the same amount of pp what a 8 star ctb map give !! for example : ( big black fc 6,54 star = any ctb map ~ 8,5 star !

thats my thoughts about that because some ctb maps are quite easy compared to convert maps

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

ignoring pp would be not an option because you play for it or most users !! Also your explaining is not bad but what I mean is simply that we need 2 own ctb pp systems one calculated for ctb (right now is a good system for it) and one for converts

Ascendance wrote:

this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

It's kind of hard to just ignore something that the entire community is obsessing over, but there really isn't a good change offered. The community just needs to learn that rank doesn't mean anything when it's just as easy to get 500pp as it is to get 800pp

I'm just gonna leave this here

Just fucking stop holy shit

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

Axiaan wrote:

I didn't see the today's post of Amlink about pp

remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

i support this image

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

Could a mod just lock this thread until someone is finally going to tweak the pp system I just don't see the possibility of worthwhile discussion in here.

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

Seph wrote:

how about we just remove osu in general hmmmmmMMM

remove pp not the game remove pp

Axiaan wrote:

My image was just a joke about Amlink
I don't support his idea about pp

neither do the new thousands of people who will never get to know the true game without this farming meta back when i could proudly tell people i played osu now its a joke and anyone i mention it to finds out about how rank works and finds out about how the community is compared to what he or she has heard before and they drop it immedaitly its very selfish for so many users to care so much about something that only has poisned and ruined what i believe ctb was and could still be what a shame that so many people would rather have a number than a chance to save the game and restore it to the second home so many of us spent our time in

I feel having a rank is a really good thing only if the actual pp was accurate or if there was some other way to determine rank or something

I think everyone agrees that converts are much harder than ctb specifics and therefore should have a higher starrating but why exactly is that the case? Obviosly turning a map into a ctb specific does not change anything and will not get a higher starrating in return. The biggest difference in my opinion is that specifics use much more hyperjumps than converts and this is exactly where the problem is with the current difficulty algorhythm.
1. If you look at fullscreenjumps and halfscreenjumps they play exactly the same but the fullscreenjumps give a higher starrating.
2. Edgejumps are way harder to play than hyperjumps but give lower starrating (most of the time)
In order to solve this there is a very simple solution when calculating the difficulty of a map just change every value you'd give a hyperjump to the value you'd give a hyperjumptrigger (a note that is just far away to trigger a hyperdash / slightly higher distance than an edgejump)
In total this would not boost the converts but rather nerf the overwheighted ctb specifics.
Here are 5 difficulties I made (20 notes each) just to show how much starrating every pattern gives:
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/739209#fruits/1559894
If you apply what I said for example all the hyperwalk maps would not be 10*+ but rather 3* because they would look like normal streams to the system (exactly how they are played as well)
1 more change I would make. Just let the system ignore notes in the beginning of the map where you do not need to move to catch them.
This would make all those 20-300* maps where you press nothing 0* and also with all the changes I think Der Wald would be an 8-10* map instead of 19* and maybe rankable then.
Just let me know what you think.

Pretty much everything you said has been said here before, it's just we have no one to make a new system at all so we're left with what we have.

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

Gln_Markus wrote:

We don't really need a new system tho just add 5-10 lines to the current one once it's added here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Catch/CatchDifficultyCalculator.cs

????????? lmao

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

pp is a poopsystem

Gln_Markus wrote:

they added the std difficulty calculator here: https://github.com/ppy/osu/blob/master/osu.Game.Rulesets.Osu/OsuDifficulty/OsuDifficultyCalculator.cs
So I'm pretty sure they'll add the one for ctb on the other link I sent before once they're finished.

if you can do it you should talk to peppy

Seeing the recent tweaks being proposed for other gamemodes got me interested in seeing if any worthwhile, simple changes could be made for catch. Now any changes to the actual star rating calculation (which are sorely needed) are well beyond my ability but I came up with a few possible tweaks to the performance calculator which I think are worth considering.

I haven't been able to gather any sizeable amount of data on the impact of these changes, if anyone can assist with that it would be hugely appreciated. I do however have a couple of spreadsheets showing some relevant information

This spreadsheet includes a number of example beatmaps with current and proposed PP values

This spreadsheet compares current and proposed multipliers

PP values in these spreadsheets will be around ~1-2pp out due to the examples provided using rounded SR values

Scale accuracy penalty with beatmap total objects

The current accuracy penalty works well enough on shorter beatmaps with less overall objects due to individual droplets having a greater impact on overall accuracy. However with more total objects individual droplets have far less effect as accuracy in catch is just the percentage of objects caught (excluding spinners). Despite there typically being more droplets in a longer map, actual player droplet misses do not increase proportionally with the increase of objects in a map to compensate. As a result the current accuracy penalty is far weaker on higher combo beatmaps.

This proposal aims to scale the penalty with the number of total objects in a map (that contribute to accuracy) so the penalty remains relevant on longer maps. This helps to add more variety between player's performances and relatively buffs SS and high accuracy plays on longer maps.

Note that this still doesn't do anything to consider how difficult the droplets are to catch as calculating that would require changes to the actual catch difficulty calculation.

Example graph of penalty at 3000 total objects

Hidden bonus adjustments
Hidden is a bit of a mixed bag for players, it's incredibly difficult for some and can be considered a reading aid for others. Balancing that aspect of Hidden is always going to be tricky, however it's commonly agreed Hidden is easier at high AR values and much harder at lower. This proposal aims mostly at reducing the Hidden bonus at very high AR values(9.5+), whilst consequently buffing low AR values.

Current hidden bonus is 5% at AR10 and above, increasing an additional 7.5% for each AR below 10
Proposed bonus is 2.5% at AR10, increasing an additional 9% for each AR below 10, and reducing to 1% at AR11

This graph shows how the proposed bonus compares. It's virtually the same bonus at ~AR8.2, increased below it and decreased above it.

Approach Rate bonus scaling above AR10
Approach Rate bonus scaling currently gives a linear bonus from AR 9 to 11. This proposal gives an additional bonus to AR values above 10, scaling from a 1.1 modifier at AR10 to a 1.25 modifier at AR11, up from 1.2 because being Sonic is not easy. Going above AR10 gets increasingly difficult with each increment and this change helps reflect that.

Relevant graph. This change is interesting when looked at with the hidden adjustments. Overall PP values for scores with hidden remain similar but plays without see a fair boost bringing the two much closer together.


Thoughts, questions, and feedback are all very welcome

HD bonus must be increased basically. ( example, not exact %. it's approximate % https://puu.sh/AnJFc/4c90ea2f11.png )
my thought on AR bonus is same with socerer

+ increase FL bonus
it's too low for now

+ increase non-hyper patterns bonus ( especially hard-edge jumps after hyper dash )
after hyper dash, move next fruit to opposite side a little during pp calculating (not in real)

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

I will probably add a few more comments later, need to go for now

posting stuff to fix that's been posted in thread a lot of times already doesn't really give anything helpful to the system, since we already know what the problems are, it's fixing them that's the issue

sorcerer's suggestions are good specifically because they are actual changes, and not just stating problems

that being said i do agree with changes proposed by sorcerer

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

In my opinion, I think HDFL needs have to have bonus multiplier (and maybe pp?). It really isn't easy to master the 2 mods

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

And I'm a low acc player xD

PakaChan wrote:

These 2 patterns should have the same length bonus

by should i mean shouldn't (why can't i edit my post?)

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.
EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.


HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

AR9 (AR9.5 for the extreme) HD is like nomod, what does it change ? The AR is already fast enough not to notice anything, and AR10 HD is a joke, more of a help than anything else.

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

Asriel wrote:

+ decrease accuracy bonus (It's different with sorcerer)
if this system will keep that the most important thing is combo, accuracy's worth must be decreased

I'm totally against this.
Accuracy is something that should be important in this game, and it should be reflected in the pp.
If you're just a ppfarmer spamming fast DT overdose in hope you'll FC it, yeah good job get pp.
Lets just take this map for exemple, Endless Hatred.
How much person have SS'd it ? 3.
How much person have FC'd it ? 38.

So, maybe there is something hard in this map other than FC ? Maybe avoiding droplet missing isn't that easy ?

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.


will edit the post if I think of something else

Droplets are important imo bye

Would be great if you could change the droplets being placed in the editor. Sometimes it doesn't fit the music. Even though you try to change the slider to make the slider fit the music it just doesnt come out the way you think. For high bpm maps it's easier to make the droplet shapes you want but for low bpm maps its a pain.

Hey. Yesterday i just explored the osu!catch code and I found out that it was really hard to edit anything when you can't understand the half of the values that are used in each functions lol
I think that the only way to change the code is to take a good dev and tell him to explore the whole osu! code to understand everything, or someone from the staff who knows well how the performance works. It's out of reach for me.

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

Why? Because I don't want to be forced to play the same 5 maps over and over again to rank up. With this idea, those beatmaps will be less "obligatory" and people will have to do more scores to get the same amount of PP.

How? I just took the final PP value as a PP base and edited it with this short program:
So, higher are the PP, higher the PP reduction will be (it's proportional to the base PP amount).

Obviously, someone could make the same thing more efficiently but it was just to illustrate the idea ^^

Here is the google sheet of my tests: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I'll come back with some other ideas if I can find anything else ^^

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Basically use this idea here, but apply it to star ratings instead. You could fix two systems at once.

Skyleia wrote:

idk make it somehow so basically a jump which is not quite a hyperdash but is very far away is considered as more difficult than hyperdashes?

idk now it looks like it's something like this:

right now pp system is (most likely) based purely on distance, so a map focused only on pixel jumps is completely underrated

make it something like this instead:

so that a furthest pixel jump is rated as much as cross-screen jump, that is not the solution but will most likely help with many converts

also ignoring pp is of course an option, but it definitely wouldn't hurt if it was a little better

It'd be better if more technical maps that rely more on challenging patterns had a more accurate star rating to match, and in turn give an appropriate amount of pp.

Sinnoh wrote:

I feel like the AR bonus could also be applied to non-hd, since EZ is still way under rated,

Ttobas wrote:

Buff EZ, adularescence is 860pp DT and only 643pp EZDT, that is big for only an AR difference,
while it's true that CS makes some paterns easier, in overhall it's way more of a nerf due to hyper dashs not being spawned.

EZ not giving the right pp is more important than what you can think. What makes EZ hard (and low pp) is the same as what gives a lot of convert maps difficulty (and still low pp). So changing how the star diff is handled w/ EZ would benefit convert plays.

EZ is going to remain tragically under rated until we can start making SR changes. A slight buff to the low AR Bonus isn't unreasonable and I'll update the spreadsheets to include one. The effect will be minimal though and we do need to consider not over rewarding lower diffs such as Cups or equivalent where the AR has less of an impact on difficulty.

Ttobas wrote:

HD buff for low ar is a good idea but it's useless, there is no low AR map that would give enough pp to make a significant increase.

Absolutely, the buff to low AR HD is mostly a side effect of nerfing high AR HD. Which is absolutely fine, a buff to low AR HD isn't unwarranted but its impact will be very minimal

Ttobas wrote:

Change flashlight pp to represent difficulty please, on AR lower than 6, flashlight shouldn't give anything noticable, especially on short map, and FL buff should increase as the AR increase (the faster the fruits scrolls, the more memory is needed), and increase as the star rating increase (because star rating should give an approximation of how "jumpy" the map is, even if it's not that good).

I took some time to play about with the FL buff but I can't reach numbers I'm happy with. Ideally the bonus would be a curve reducing at higher AR where memorisation is the primary factor but I cannot get the numbers to bend to my will. Scaling the bonus further to account for short maps (sub 200 combo) should be simple enough. If anyone can help out here that would be really appreciated

Worth pointing out that the current FL bonus doesn't account for AR at all and still applies the base AR bonus, meaning the FL bonus actually increases slightly as AR gets lower when comparing AR values under 8

Ttobas wrote:

But, maybe you could increase accuracy importance when the score is an FC, or just account the number of droplet miss (and not miss, that already nerf you) when you calculate the accuracy importance of the score.

There's no need to really, the penalty for misses and not achieving max combo will decimate pp values on a non-fc play, the acc penalty at that point is tiny in comparison

PakaChan wrote:

i think the way length is calculated needs a small revision, you don't actually move for every object in ctb. It makes streamy maps overrated.
FL gets a little broken because of this since it's jumpy maps that are the hard ones and streamy ones easier.

These 2 patterns shouldn't* have the same length bonus

SPOILER

Absolutely, I did initially look at adjusting the length bonus but was unsure if it was the right thing to do but I hadn't really thought about the point you raised.

In other gamemodes where every object, no matter how hard or easy it is, requires an input then scaling the length bonus with max combo works fairly well. But this doesn't apply to CtB where there's no guarantee that a note requires any sort of movement.

The ideal solution would be to calculate the length bonus in the actual difficulty calculator and only include objects that require movements, but any changes to the difficulty calculator look incredibly unlikely until it's ported to lazer.

Using total drain time instead has similar drawbacks to max combo but is probably more exploitable. It's easy to pad a map with long sliders in slow sections or long spinners.

For lack of a better solution I'll propose a nerf to the length bonus instead. It's quite strong right now and doesn't exactly achieve what it's intending to

F D Flourite wrote:

Agree with Asriel on the Acc penalty part (which is opposite to Sorcerer's proposal) that it should be decreased. Because droplets are generated by random functions that slightly deviate the actual position of droplet from the slider position. They're not completely following the music anyways. So adding penalty for such a random algorithm doesn't seem to make sense for me.

Despite the variation of droplets from the slider path (which makes me very sad), they're still the same for everyone and still require skill to catch. They require more precise and accurate movements across sliders and better control of the catcher's momentum when you hyper into them. I absolutely believe catching droplets takes an amount of skill and that skill should be rewarded

bastoo0 wrote:

So I just did a short simple program to test an idea I had, by just editing the final pp value with a logarithm.
The aim of this is to reduce the insane amount of difference between really over-valued beatmaps (such as Uta or Envision) and beatmaps that worth less PP.

This is quite interesting, atleast as a band-aid proposal to lessen the effects of the very inaccurate difficulty calculator we currently have. This does however go against the nature of SR a bit, where a higher SR map awards more pp under the assumption it's harder to fc. But currently the vast majority of high SR maps, about 8+, get their SR from hilariously over rated patterns which are usually high BPM streams, most others are using 2B elements which straight up breaks SR. This is definitely worth exploring some more

ChickenChanS wrote:

Personally, I think a star rating calculation change than a pp calculation change would be better considering how much it's tied to pp - especially for maps that use a minimal amount of hyperdashing (or none at all), but use jumps that come just short like https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1486886&m=2 which ends up having a star rating that makes you massively underestimate its actual difficulty.

Star rating calculation changes aren't too feasible right now and are more complicated than pp calculation changes so for now I'm working with what I can. Saying that, current SR calculation does infact rate edge dashes quite strong, it's just it only does so for extreme edge dashes. Try it out in the editor using dashes right on the border of being a hyperdash, there'll be a noticeable increase in SR. It looks like the difficulty calculator is too strict with what it considers an edge dash but there could well be a reason for doing so