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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Catch the Beat)

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Zak

He Ang Erika wrote:

Zak wrote:

they don't gain pp, that's how the system works
They don't gain pp, that's why the system doesn't work looool

By the way I'm 666th pp commentor C: I'm the king noww
What, sure they system isn't accurate but it does work in the sense that if you don't play anything to gain pp, you're going to get passed by people below you.
BoberOfDarkness
wampir is too lazy for being on top
Sleepteiner
Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
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I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.
Kingkevin30

Sleepteiner wrote:

Someone said that I should post this in here instead of in the Feature Requests forum. This is about star rating more than performance points, but I hope it still applies.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think that the circle size and approach rate extremes should be weighted more in the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating.

I currently have almost 1500 SS ranks in Catch the Beat. Most of those scores are from maps in the 1.8 star and below difficulty range. Around 98% of all of the SS ranks that I have obtained took me anywhere from one to three tries. A few took anywhere from four to fifteen. I was fine with the amount of tries even if it took ten or so. Everything was going great until I ran into Pixel Studio - Gravity [ZOMGWTF]. I've tried that map 226 times and I still haven't even gotten half way through with the perfect mod on. If you don't know what this map is then you are in for a treat because it has a CS of 7, an AR of 10, an OD of 10, and a HP of 9. With Catch the Beat, the map requires fantastic precision and memory.

Is my lack of ability to get a SS rank on this map because I'm simply just not good enough? Yes, but that doesn't take away from the fact that this map should be, in no way, only 1.49 stars in Catch the Beat. Now, I don't claim to know the intricacies of the formula for the Catch the Beat star difficulty rating, but I think something needs to be changed. Weighting approach rate and especially circle size extremes more for the star rating should be able to bump this map way up to at least closer to where it should be.

I do recognize that changing a formula that applies to 40,000 maps to address a problem in only one map would cause more problems than it would fix, but this formula change wouldn't just effect this map since it would beneficial for all small circle size maps. It is consistent that the small circle size maps take me much longer to SS than maps with a normal circle size. In fact, all of the maps that took me more than around six tries were the under-weighted high-CS maps. Through this, I genuinely believe that this change will improve the level of polish in osu!, if only slightly.

Thank you for reading! Have a good day.
I understand what you're getting at, and i surely think that high Circle Size (with difficult patterning) should get reconsideration in the future,
but with your Example of "Gravity", that map in itself has a quite easy pattern, the only thing that makes it more difficult is just the small circle size combined with high AR, Plus the little amount of weightening for Accuracy is understandable since its such a short song.

But there are a bunch of other olders maps that are being valued "less?" then they should be
^<-(hard to compare with Difficult maps on high AR&low CS that give a comparable high Star Rating)
(most of them being high CS maps with +DTHR added)
(+HD is not valued enough on these cases if its added...because there is a huge increase of difficulty when High CS Maps are being Played HDDTHR)

like for example:

ArmCannon - Borrow Mega Nuke (Eureka Bong Worm) [Exeter Modem]+DTHR = 4,67Stars
Chrono Cross - Yasunori Mitsuda - Time's Scar [The Whole Mapset]+DTHR = 4-5Stars
Daft Punk - Technologic [Insane]+DTHR = 4,23Stars
DragonForce - Through The Fire And Flames [Hard]+DTHR = 4,46Stars
Mindless Self Indulgence - Bullshit [BULLSHIT!]+DTHR = 4,73Stars
Sasaki Nozomi - Cosplay no Kokoroe [Insane]+DTHR = 4,76Stars

But to be honest, im not even sure if those +4Star Ratings are fine, they seem fair...but on special occasions it just feels WAY harder than everything else in its comparable Star Difficulty Range
Osten
I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with ;)
DeletedUser_500696

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with ;)
Yea also I think non-hyper jumps should give more pp
He Ang CTB

Osten112 wrote:

I think HD should give you less pp and with DT you should get more pp with ;)
I've played so many maps that are downright cancer with HD, but can be played well on DT just after a few tries :X E.g. Fallen Angel [SHD] stuff like that. In general HD would give less pp than DT, but certainly should be more than NoMod.
Clana_old
It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.
Axiaan

Clana wrote:

It's almost off topic but the reason HD is a problem in CTB is because a lack of viable pp maps

If you are a solid player on nomod and farm the popular pp maps (Hanabi Umarudose Xeno etc etc), you land at a solid rank of 80~ as of today
Player B turns out to be a HD player and plays those maps on HD, with an exception of a couple, with the addition of 6~7 HD scores Player B is rank 60~40.
If CTB had more maps that people didn't fc in 15 minutes and move on (Towayori, Genryuu, Dreamless, L) there would be more variety to ranking and also a benefit to becoming better as a player to be able to fc more maps rather than spending 5 plays fcing nomod, 50 on HDing it, then the next 300 trying to HR.
I agree with that. There are some maps which gives more than 350pp if FC/SS no mod which are easy to do. My actual top score is around 230pp but I'm able to FC Akatsuki no Tsuki Oriental, Piranha or MegaMan map (or 1/2 miss, but I only want SS), which all gives above 350pp, that's ridiculous. I normally don't have the skill to do a >5 stars map so easily with my rank. (#850) I don't say that there're only easys maps above 5 stars but some are easiers than others, for example as Clana said, L is an hard map for me.
I don't mean they're bads maps, no, they're goods and funnys, but they give so much pp for the difficulty that we need to FC them.
+ if we put Hidden or for the really good players HR, we will be easily on the top 100 "without efforts", and that's why a lot of people who plays other mods than CTB said that this mod is easy.
I hope in the future there's some hards maps that even the top 20 have difficulties to get a S on, like an Odoru Mizushibuki [Death Dance] CTB version, it will be very nice I guess !
CelegaS
It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.
Zak
I think when Tom or someone else who can actually come help fix things comes around we can get somewhere if they simply put a heavier weight on timing jumps as most players will agree those are usually much harder to hit than hypers a majority of the time. With weighting put to both hyper and non-hyper patterns put properly lots of converted maps will be giving similar pp to ctb maps and rankings will be much more varied.

CelegaS wrote:

It's called hdash overweight. faster hdash = higher stars, but there is some pattern that make hdash easier or harder to pass.
This thread is about pp feedback and suggestions, i think we already said everything about pp and stars problem but it's like devs don't read this thread. It's my feeling, like for many thread in feature request that have no answer for ages.
It's not that the devs don't read this thread, it's that there was pretty much only a single person capable of creating the pp formula we currently use, and that person was Tom and he's currently busy with real life. We pretty much need to wait for him to be able to come back or for someone else to come along who is able to adjust the formula accordingly.
He Ang CTB
I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

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It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears :x
Clana_old

He Ang Erika wrote:

I am like pushing and wishing my hardest for a pp revamp, while I know for certainty, deep down in my heart that when Genryuu Kaiko gets dethroned I will cry myself to sleep and never wake up again QAQ

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.
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It's 'kay I will get better at putting mods on standard converts map, it'll happen when I wake up from those tears :x
That specific map hopefully will bring awareness to a need to a new change.
I had a dream where #132 has 10004 pp after 5 or 6 of those maps gets ranked ;(
PakaChan
About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;
Kingkevin30

PakaChan wrote:

About the open sourced thing: The difficulty calculator wasn't open sourced, it's just the pp part after the difficulty was already calculated. (did i word that right?)

Stuff i could gather:
- There's a length multiplier which scales with max combo. It scales linearly up to 3000 combo, after which it's reverse logarithmic scale.
At 375 combo, the multiplier is 1. At 3000 combo the multiplier is 1.35 after which it scales slowly
- The formula for the miss multiplier is (0.97^no_of_misses)
- The formula for combo multiplier is ( player_max_combo ^ 0.8 / beatmap_max_combo ^ 0.8 )
- The formula for acc multiplier is ( acc ^ 5.5 )
(a HR fc on owen tag4 would be ~1300pp according to this)
- AR gives a 10% bonus for each point above 9 and 2.5% bonus for each point bellow 8
- HD gives 5% bonus for AR10-11 and an additional 7.5% for each point bellow 10
- FL gives 35% bonus and reapplies the combo multiplier again ( a 3000 combo map gets 82% more for FL, a 375 combo map gets 35% more)
- NF gives 10% penalty;
The interesting part for me now is what penalty Easy has, and why the Effect of DT overweighs it, is it purely based on the AR? or the Mod-Multiplier
Zak
I don't believe AR does anything to Star Rating, so I think it's just how much harder DT makes it in the case of EZ turning hypers into ridiculously hard pixel-jumps and DT making the remaining ones even faster.
BoberOfDarkness
AR bonus (no mod) could be for just AR9>
AR bonus (HD) 15% AR0-7
AR bonus (HD) 10% AR8-9.5
AR bonus (HD) 5% AR9.5>
Zak
The bonuses for HD are fine as they are aside from around 9.5-10, it goes down to too little at that point, and should maybe only drop to around 7% at AR10
Izyu
PP has failed us....
Izyu
love the FL boost to pp its great
[ - S T A R - ]

Yu_Makari wrote:

love the FL boost to pp its great
FL isn't the easiest thing tho. Do you have any tips for FL? :?
Cipse
Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp :lol:
Sorceress

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp :lol:
8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.
Amlink

119410501 wrote:

Remove PP rankings.
Fucking 3 years ago still true AF
Amlink

Sorcerer wrote:

Cipse wrote:

Does anyone know why the score multiplier of DT is lower than that of HR, considering that an SS with DT gives more pp than an SS with HR - or even HDHR, for that matter.

Just wondering, because if someone gets a DT FC then does a HR FC of the same map, later, they'll lose pp :lol:
8 years ago a bad thing happened... More seriously, 8 years ago when the multipliers were decided the mapping meta was quite different with higher CS and lower AR. On these sort of maps HR is harder than DT but mapping has since evolved while scoring and mods have stayed the same.

There was some work done behind the scenes by Tom94 to allow for you to have more than one score on the same map for different mod combinations. Your highest score would show up on the leaderboards but you would have the pp from your highest pp play but I believe this has been shelved due to a large increase in time to retrieve scores ingame.

ScoreV2 currently has a 1.1x multiplier for HR and a 1.2x multiplier for DT. This would mean even a HDHR score would be beaten by just DT but we don't know how far away it is from being implemented into the game fully. In the meantime you just have to avoid overwriting DT scores with HR, though HDDT does beat out HR so if you can play HD not all is lost.
I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rockversus DT doubletime. A big problem with that is that even with hidden doubletime if you get a Max spin with hard rock you cannot beat it with HD DT unless the map itself has more bananas with double time then it or no mod than it does with hard rock even then it's a stretch a huge problem these days is players like myself as well as higher tier players who have done at least One HR score on any given map and cannot go back to beat it with DT when they feel if they are able to FC. Unless you are referring to a couple of maps even then it's debatable that HR is ever harder than double time referring to a high-ish tier PP play even if you take ExGon's utage HR one miss which is insane don't forget that it would be three times as crazy to FC or SS that with double time even 10 miss would be considered overjoy tier. If you an HD HR FC on oriental with a very good spin and are unable to beat it with HD DT can't you see something is wrong with that?? Hard rock is a garbage mod I am sorry (Not sorry) to everyone that was offended by that I'm sorry to all the farmers that have gotten very far in a broken PP system that's meaningless and spent years learning the mod that is overglorified no mod and that their speciality and their mod of choice is completely and entirely and undebatabley easier than double time if you compare on average a 4 to 5 star map plus with either hard rock or double time on at least AR nine these players who will strive to push the physical speed that can be achieved in CTB will forever be unrewarded due to an inferior mod that everyone seems to like way too much. Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT. At that point it's broken beyond all belief and I have lost all hope. Some people will call this. Post salty due to me not having more than a few HR plays but at the end of the day it's simple facts distorted scythe with hard rock how many players have done that quite a few how many players have done it with doubletime NONE I could either list every other PP map that is been FC with HR or I can not at all because if I need to elaborate any further or you all have serious mental issues and should get yourself checked. OK that was salty but what do you want from me I'm just a guy who's spent 2 1/2 going on three years of my life playing a game that not only was already broken but continues to deteriorate to this day even beyond all repair or any kind of hope can save it's integrity. Has the game been and continues to be today, a waste of time as far as ranking or scoring yes! Is it a waste of time as a fun minigame? yeah in that case enjoy yourself but if you look for any other merit beyond that go play something other than CTB
Kingkevin30

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.
Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.
Amlink

Kingkevin30 wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just remove PP entirely if you were going to say that hard rock should be a higher multiplier than DT.
Ehhm, they never said anything about that, only that HR was considered a harder mod 8YEARS ago, which i would think to be true considering the wacky spacing and high CS of old maps in the beginning of osu!.
I was aware they didnt say that "I disagree about the current aspects regarding hard rock versus DT doubletime." i was just taking what they said and using that to state my point and have some context to my post. it wasn't a direct response to them but it was simply using the topic they had already established as a way to get some background info on what I was writing about.
Dianthus
Don't trash people because you have forgotten how to enjoy the game.

Also, probably the only truly precise way for pp system would be to have a group of (knowledgeable, skilled and incorruptible) players dictate the amount of pp a song should give with all mods.
eldnl
Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?
Kingkevin30

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?
From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.
Zak

Kingkevin30 wrote:

eldnl wrote:

Is the pp system going to be fixed in ctb some day?
From Responses Peppy gave regarding the PP System, he himself and the Dev Team would probably be too out of touch with the current Stance of what the community deems "difficult" and so on. For the most part they are just waiting for someone to make an attempt on finding a better alternative or a "fixed/optimized" new PP-System.

But from how people have accustomed to the "ppv2-Fix" System that we had now for years, I would guess that many people wouldn't even want to have a more balanced system.

Since High CS & Sharp Spacing have pretty much fallen out of interest, in exchange for more rapid hypermovements, Hyperchains, and High Decimal AR that already gives its on 10% SR/pp bonus.

So yea, i wouldn't think that we will see any change soon.

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.
Kingkevin30

Zak wrote:

Actually, from what I heard skimming through the most recent coffee hour, they plan to rework the system some with help of the community members, so hopefully by the time lazer has a full release, we'll have a new pp system ready to go.
Ohh ok, maybe i skipped over that, since I got my information from the coffee hour aswell.
I thought it was more of an invitation for working toghther with certain community Members for a new PP System
Didn't actually hear that they said that they are already in the "beginning stages" of setting things up with community Members
Amlink
remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again
Zak

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again
Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself
Amlink

Zak wrote:

Amlink wrote:

remove pp ranking from ctb game mode and make it a good place to be again
Wow such a constructive comment you've saved us all by yourself
thx i knew i could help if i just put my mind to it im so glad i could figure out a way to resolve this horrible dilemma
Axiaan
Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?
Amlink

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?
ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it
DeletedUser_1417202
many map gave less pp but diffcult is much harder.

and then some ctb map gives pp too much.
Ascendance

Amlink wrote:

Gauderique wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?
ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it
this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)
DakkyChan

Ascendance wrote:

Amlink wrote:

Just ignore the pp ranking and play the game?

ignore almost the entirety of what makes this game community bad and toxic with egos the size of planets yeah ill try to do that ... basically like a doctor saying im sorry the cancer is so bad just ignore it youll be fine im sure it hurts but just ignore it
this is just a very bad argument in general. You can ignore people with egos and play the game for fun, you can't ignore cancer lol. You can very easily play the game the way you want to play it, by ignoring pp and setting cool scores, but for people with competitive drive, whether the system is flawed or not, the pp system is the base as to why some people play the game. There's no need to just randomly shit on anyone who happens to care about the number just because you don't.

This whole "delete pp and the game will be fun again" is so boring these days. PP won't ever be deleted, no one ever proposes any decent change, and the same overly vocal and ultra minority are the only people who want this to happen. Get over yourselves and deal with it (or even better, just don't play!)

Tbh the pp system is quite fine but it should be slightly changed in terms of how much a convert map gives and how much a ctb map gives ! What I basicly try to explain is that a 6 star convert diff should give the same amount of pp what a 8 star ctb map give !! for example : ( big black fc 6,54 star = any ctb map ~ 8,5 star !

thats my thoughts about that because some ctb maps are quite easy compared to convert maps
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