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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Has nothing to do with my perceivement of enjoyment. Whether it is the enjoyment to climb ranks or get good scores on harder and harder maps, ppv2 is not a necessity to enjoy either of these and it would work with ppv1 just as well.
There's no doubt that ppv2 has a severe influence on how the community and its content develops. That's what I dislike about it, not ppv2 itself.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun
But what's wrong with that? Why should people have to create content in some way that you won't that may not may not be for a specific purpose? In my opinion people can be free to create what they want for whatever reason. If someone makes a pp map, fine. If someone makes a map that doesn't give pp but is fun, fine.

If a map is only played for pp then abandoned, so what? If someone really actually likes a map, they'll play it regardless of pp or whatever and play it fairly often. And that doesn't need to be every or even the majority of maps.

There's also some opinion that maps that give pp are somehow inferior just because of this aspect, but I think that that's the complainers not able to divorce the actual map from the idea of pp.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog
perceivement
It's perception, dammit
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

GhostFrog wrote:

perceivement
It's perception, dammit
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris

GhostFrog wrote:

perceivement
It's perception, dammit
I'm sorry. I'll try to do better next time.

@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Higer pp score despite map score (which is ppv1 thing) still isn't calculated into top rank. Just saying.
At this moment i could say we have ppv1 mixed with ppv2.

Loosing ~20pp on a map becouse 97,1% acc have like 100k more score than 98,8% acc is heavy anti-fun and demotivating to play more.
Curdi
5 posts
Joined April 2012
Curdi
I lost PP and rank after I improved my combo + acc on a map. Peppy pls
E m i
E m i

Curdi wrote:

I lost PP and rank after I improved my combo + acc on a map. Peppy pls
higher miss count?
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
Hozume
6 posts
Joined February 2016
Hozume
oh nice
Florrow
126 posts
Joined September 2015
Florrow
Just as skillful as it should be.
PP gain is based on accuracy, combo, and diff, but also on your ranking.
great job :^)
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

ReynBolt wrote:

Ehm after tryharding this map for a week I got only 188 pp from this play S3RL - Bass Slut (Original Mix) at Fort's light insane. It's a way too inappropriate considering it requies some 263 bpm single tapping/alternating and tricky patterns but with small spacing between them.
nonexistent acc
Alea
2,303 posts
Joined May 2015
Alea
I had a song with no full combo complete but with high acc , then I did it with full combo but with a little bit less of accuracy than before, and I lost pp and ranks ..

I'm done .. why ?
Endaris
5,282 posts
Joined June 2010
Endaris
Combo has a linear scaling with pp but acc scales exponentially. Just look at Tillerino's pp-graphs on reddit.
Vj-Agung
45 posts
Joined January 2015
Vj-Agung
What happened? whether the performance pp has been obtained may be reduced by the osu? I experienced it, pp perfomance i somehow reduced because of what?? :( :( :( :( :? :? :?:
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
Probably because you set a higher-score lower-pp score on a map you already had a score on
jaaakb
2,511 posts
Joined December 2013
jaaakb
combo should have a scaling based on map difficulty spread of the map on a combo axis.

you can calculate what combo is required to guarantee a guy fcd a hard part in a map for sure.

calculate the easiest part he could have fcd for 10, 20, 30, 40, --- , 100% combo, make the combo pp scale based on that

this would only result in profit, unless you look at replay data for the specific points at which combo was lost.


so this would make getting 75% combo on a map with the hard part in the middle worht more than 75% combo in a map with the hard part in the end. makes sense. it was suggested earlier but i just wrote it again
-Zayto
15 posts
Joined June 2014
-Zayto
DT is over rated
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

-Zayto wrote:

DT is over rated
No.

OD 9.75 is difficult so no, it's not.
Yuudachi-kun
5,434 posts
Joined August 2014
Yuudachi-kun

-Zayto wrote:

DT is over rated
Judging from your level of play of DT being Suklapallit or lower, I'd say yes.
dGeist
113 posts
Joined October 2015
dGeist
Just wonderin why do some of my scores have a star next to them?
DeathHydra
652 posts
Joined November 2015
DeathHydra

dGeist wrote:

Just wonderin why do some of my scores have a star next to them?
Because your score is top 500 on that map. People can download your replay of that map just by clicking the star
mrburns123
1 post
Joined July 2015
mrburns123
I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
uberpancake
160 posts
Joined December 2012
uberpancake

mrburns123 wrote:

I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
The fix for this is underway.
E m i
E m i

uberpancake wrote:

mrburns123 wrote:

I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.
The fix for this is underway.
For years.
Mahogany
2,684 posts
Joined August 2014
Mahogany
osu!next will never come out
[ -Neon- ]
27 posts
Joined February 2013
[ -Neon- ]
@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.
you are overthinking this way too hard, people will always come up with new ideas to make new sorts of maps and everyone maps in his own way.
there will always be pp maps because some maps are just easier to fc with high diff (in terms of pp system) then others, but nonetheless people will keep making bad ass maps in the future
Dianthus
162 posts
Joined November 2013
Dianthus
Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.
bunnyluvr3000
10 posts
Joined November 2014
bunnyluvr3000
I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q
Dianthus
162 posts
Joined November 2013
Dianthus

bunnyluvr3000 wrote:

I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q
Well yeah, I'm pretty much the same. All I want is to stay in country #50, anything else is just a bonus. I just thought that the high level players would find that a nice change, since it's actually there where it would matter.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.
That's a long wall of text for asking acc to be determined by unstable rate instead of accuracy %. It's been suggested/asked before, and i believe UR isn't saved anywhere (that's why you have to rewatch a replay to check it) so it can't be used right now.
Ashens
16 posts
Joined July 2015
Ashens
Sorry if this is not really related to Performance Points but I will submit it anyway... I was looking on https://web.archive.org at old osu! sites out of pure curiosity, I selected the earliest date I could find, which was 11th October 2008, and I obviously saw the site had changed a massive amount. Although once looking through the site in its entirety I realized there was no sort of ranking system or PP system as a matter of fact. I continued to a random date, 13th September 2008, and looked at the player ranking. I saw the usual people like Saturos, tobebuta and Cyclone e.t.c But one thing I realized straight away is there are tiny red or green arrow's and a number next to a players name, surely indicating whether they have gone down or up in ranks recently. Go too https://web.archive.org/web/20080913014 ... yerranking for the example I am looking at here.

Conclusion
I would really think it would be a good idea too reintroduce those rank down/upscale arrows and the amount of ranks they have down/up-scaled because it might not seem like it but It really does interest people like me who wants an easy way too view a players progress (without going on to https://web.archive.org and doing it manually)

Thanks ^_^ xxx
snyviper
94 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper
Quick overral suggestions here...

Increase PP gained with Lower AR +HD.
Drastically increase AR 9,8+ PP on easier beatmaps when player gets lower accuracy (being able to FC HR at that level is impressive).
Decrease PP gained by lower BPM DT beatmaps, increase PP gained by higher BPM DT beatmaps.
Either Increase PP gained with flashlight, or decrease its score multiplier (I dislike the fact that there are a lot of #1 players with lower PP gained from that beatmap).
Drastically increase DT score multiplier, to something like x2,5 (I did a few calculations about PP gained for that), increase HR score multiplier to x1,2, increase HT multiplier to x0,45, increase EZ multiplier to x0,65, and increase NF multiplier to x0,7 to match PP gained (Except for NF).

(I'm aware of Score v2 current multipliers)
Tifa
13 posts
Joined July 2016
Tifa
everything is fine :D
Tiggy
19 posts
Joined February 2016
Tiggy
Very Nice!
Illustrious
29 posts
Joined April 2016
Illustrious
The ppv2 system works fine, but in my opinion in some sense it doesn't cooperate with current score system very well.

The thing is: on a same map, a play with much higher pp is highly possible to be blocked by a play with lower pp because of the score if the higher pp play isn't a fc one.

For example, Totori (aka rustbell)'s score on Remote Control [Max Control] HDDT: 608pp, 1563/1774 combo, 54,566,762 score.
Meanwhile, another friend of mine has a score like this: Remote Control [Max Control] No mod: 285pp, 1774/1774 combo(fc), 61,293,280 score (MUCH higher than Totori's score, but significantly less pp).
Which means, if Totori fced that map in no mod or even in just hd somet ime earlier, his brilliant HDDT score NEVER has a chance to be uploaded and added to his pp. In other words, a 280pp performance blocks a 600+pp performance. That totally doesn't make sense to me (and I believe to many others as well).

My recommendation will be, either modify current score (or pp) system to make sure that a play with higher pp can always beat another play with lower pp, or make we players be able to alter our own plays on bp list so that the rising players don't have to worry that their possible 2mod/3mod plays that worth 500+/600+ pps will be blocked by current 100/200 pp no mod fcs.

I know that I'm not the first one who come up with this opinion, but up to now I haven't seen much progress on this (or there actually is, in that case it'll be my bad XD). Right before I send this post, some tell me that "Just get used to it, it's common." But common doesn't mean reasonable. I love this game, and since it's becoming more and more confusing to me and some of my friends, I feel that I need to bring this topic to light again. I will be extremely happy if the update is on the way :)
Hexiz
3 posts
Joined December 2016
Hexiz
The harder the mods , the more pp it gives. thats how i see it
Lugli
3 posts
Joined July 2016
Lugli
Well, maybe someone already asked this, so, sorry but i will re-ask it.


Why, when i score a 98% acc in a 3,5/4,3 song, im not earning any pp? and, the "weight" i recieve is of 1% when i strike those scores in MY FIRST TRY.

Here is a ss

https://gyazo.com/ddbbe7d0d09affcd4926f1fec0bb6994

Thanks for reading, i want to know why im not weigthing normal. Cause, for example, "Tranquility "In my room" <- that one is a 3,7 stars difficulty and i weigthed it in a 100%, i dont really understand the system :l
snyviper
94 posts
Joined April 2015
snyviper

Lugli wrote:

... i dont really understand the system :l
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points check "Weightage system".
Soar
284 posts
Joined March 2010
Soar
I was thinking about why old map is not high pp enough, and I concluded that's because it doesn't apply changing the shape

For example


linear shape is easier than


bending shape

(Ignore the difficulty from distance between the circle, I can't find the different shape with same distance)



It also can make slider hard with adding tick
For example


linear slider is easier than


bending shape

I wonder does pp already apply this concept
Haxwill
175 posts
Joined March 2016
Haxwill
I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher
E m i
E m i

destroyerwilly wrote:

I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher

Momiji wrote:

Hidden bonus = 18% aim, 2% accuracy
Flashlight bonus = 50% aim, 2% accuracy
Posted: 2 years ago
eoalannn
4 posts
Joined October 2016
eoalannn
sou um demonio
Snakelancer
1 post
Joined May 2016
Snakelancer
Why do you lose what looks like to be around a thousand points for hitting 100s and 50s now? For newbies, at least, that doesn't look promising at all, to me.
Whaleborne
23 posts
Joined January 2015
Whaleborne
Maybe make it so you can still get an S after like 1 or 2 misses? Like, every other game mode is just as forgiving :/ I have had this complaint from long time players before
dsavant
6 posts
Joined April 2013
dsavant
Is there a minimum required acc to even get pp? I got a 96.92% S on a 2.8 star map that I've never played before and didn't gain a single point...
Sandy Hoey
3,605 posts
Joined October 2015
Sandy Hoey
There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho
dsavant
6 posts
Joined April 2013
dsavant

Sandy Hoey wrote:

There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho
I've never had any issues with my connection to Bancho that I'm aware of :| am I just playing maps that are considered "too easy"? It seems like 1/2 the maps I've been playing (including ones recommended from Tillerino) I just don't get pp for at all, and if I do it's like, 5 pp tops...
Sandy Hoey
3,605 posts
Joined October 2015
Sandy Hoey
It could also be that you aren't donig as well as you think you are. Just because you have decent acc and an S doesn't mean that you didn't break your combo somewhere and didn't get the FC.
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje
It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
Fanboy
2 posts
Joined June 2014
Fanboy

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje

Fanboy wrote:

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.
To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on
I want to say that I do not mean to disrespect whatsoever.
From my experience, there seemed to be a huge variety of maps you can efficiently gain ranks from at the lower amounts of total performance points. However once you reach those borders of difficulty (ar10+, od10) alternatives are becoming more and more scarce. Furthermore, by no means did I say all 1 minute maps are easy, nor irrelevant. I'm sure people enjoy actually listening the music in there. (so do I, from time to time)

What bothers me is that they are picked deliberately to be mapped in a certain way so they yield the maximum amount they can give. And with the way pp is calculated at the moment, they are just too easy for the amount of performance points they give.

Performance points are the only true in game reward you get for playing the game. Players of any game will always try to optimise the way they get their rewards. Mappers feed the community with what they want. So neither are to blame. I feel like the only thing that can restore balance is to adjust the pp calculations.
B1rd
2,974 posts
Joined December 2013
B1rd
It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.
Pittigbaasje
osu! Alumni
227 posts
Joined December 2012
Pittigbaasje

B1rd wrote:

It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.
I agree that it is very hard. Impossible, perhaps. However, I don't think that it has to be perfect in order for it to be fun and inviting to climb. Players will find the best way again eventually, and when that time comes, a small tweak can yet again solve the new problem with ease. Leaving the formula almost unchanged for years just doesn't seem right to me.
my name is hi
119 posts
Joined August 2014
my name is hi
Sometimes I get better scores and lose PP... Otherwise everything's fine!
sayonara_sekai
376 posts
Joined November 2010
sayonara_sekai
yeah i came back from a long break and noticed that theres mappers who straight up make metronome ar9.1-9.5 jump maps with high OD. its actually really gross some of these maps even get ranked, i think theres some serious circlejerk going on in this games mapping community and severely damaging this kind of mapping would do wonders for the game in the long run
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:
Caradine
Caradine

[Taiga] wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:
honestly idk about dt but that map is harder than many many other 4.5 star maps for me.
wokalek
139 posts
Joined September 2015
wokalek
Hello... Where I can know about pp formula for definite map? If it possible at all.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Short rant... yet again... how pp formula is complete horseshit garbage:




All 3 maps are over 5 min long. Marathon size maps.

Now sit tight:




"Los" - around 1:40, NOT EVEN 5*
haitai - 40 seconds

OD is same for all of them.

Wish incoming osu!lazer brings complete rework of this bullshit.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
Los is higher OD, higher accuracy and with HD so it gives more pp. haitai is higher star rating but significantly shorter so it gives less pp.
What is the problem?
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Weighting of map length = 30s or 5 min... doesn't matter for formula.
Sliders are non-existent for pp formula - main fucking issue.

Pretty much everything with pp formula.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1226973 - 99,40% acc FC with HD gives 374pp (amount of players able to pull this - can count on 2 hands)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591987 - 100% HDDT gives 363pp (amount of players able to pull this - A LOT)

Please, if someone tell me that 20s harumachi HDDT is harder than 5min USAO... must visit mental doctor asap.
Last edited by -Makishima S- , edited 1 time in total.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
Length is absolutely involved in pp values of a map, just not as much as you seem to want it.
Sliders are existent in pp formula. It looks at the shortest possible path you can take. The problem is that 1: it doesnt take into account that you have to follow the sliderball and 2: a jump will always be faster than a slider.

Map length is a difficult subject because how are you going to accurately use it in pp calculation? Should a map that's twice as long give twice as much pp? Then you will soon end up with superinflated pp ratings just because that 4* map is 20 minutes. Should a map that's similar star rating but longer always be worth more pp, even if the od is lower? When length weighting was first added people complained that it was too strong so it got nerfed, now you think it's not strong enough. It's not just something where you change 1 number and be done with it.

Also you could work on your attitude.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Map length is just weighted too little in comparison to how aim and speed values are weighted. Consistency is... lets be honest, one of harder skills to maintain because human nature of nerves and stress has his role in it. How many people out of all players in rank range from 50 to 10k are able to consistently play with high accuracy and FC in 10-20 tires marathon size maps and how many are able to do this to 1 min maps. While rank going up, more people starting to be able to play longer maps but it is still an issue if you gained your ranks by playing exclusively TV-Size maps.

Map length should have bigger impact for pp just because it is way easier to pull out 200pp score from daidai dt spamming it over and over than from for example this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - OD9 7 min vs OD 9.7 2 min map.

Here is one thing:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - 99% = ~220pp
daidai genome DT only 93% acc fc = ~223pp

Now, difficulty wise - pulling 99% on Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End is wayyy harder than pulling 93% fc on daidai genome.

Sorry for my attitude, issues with pp formula still driving me out, even that I don't play actively anymore due this particular issue.
Blueness
62 posts
Joined January 2011
Blueness
so far so good until the PerformancePlus launched.

Here is an example: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/38235 I have 94.46% on DTFC and got 262pp, but the same score there are more than 310pp in the PP+

Now I'm in meditation, why the beatmap contains TONS of streams still gives less pp than a many stupid jumps like daidai gonome?
I'm really really care about the streams take up how many percentage weight in the pp system, to fc a beatmap with many high speed streams is not easy for most people, but many people can jump easily even with the touchscreen.
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-
Because distance spacing on streams is short and for pp formula "it is worth nothing".
Yet, getting good acc on stream heavy map like River styx is super hard in comparison to 1-3x 100 daidai HDDT.

99% acc fc river styx gives same pp as HDDT 1 x 100 on daidai.

Amount of people able to pull out 99% acc fc on river styx - not many...
1 x 100 HDDT daidai - well... every single 4-digit pp farmer.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
amax
110 posts
Joined June 2015
amax
I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Tilt on English wrote:

I know it was changed before ppv2 was implemented but wouldn't it be good to have a percentage of the pp gained come from the actual rank achieved on leader board of a map? I see a couple of problems that my young brain can't find solutions for, like people constantly refreshing the new ranked maps page. I thought that maybe some sort of proportion could be set for players played and time the map has been out or something but then that would make people wait for everyone else to play it. If someone does find a solution to solve this issue, would this idea still be nice?
This is how ppv1 worked and it was shit.
Kiciuk
108 posts
Joined October 2013
Kiciuk
ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Hydrano
36 posts
Joined September 2011
Hydrano
I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Hydrano wrote:

I played this game a lot in the past years and stopped playing it actively about a year ago. I found my skill cap I guess. The game gives no more reward for my plays. In the 4 digit ranks it's not enough to fc 5.4* maps with under 99.5% to get any pp.
Also the fact that you must full combo the maps AND get very high accuracy makes it even more unattractive in higher ranks. You can't play this game casual (1 hour max. per day) if you want some kind of positive feedback for playing it.
I just want this 'reward feeling' back when passing maps even with like 92% on long streaming maps etc. Or if I combo break just once in the middle of a map. Absolute no reward even with 99.90%. But all I get is a -1 rank after every map tho.

I just wanted to share my thoughts about this never ending topic even though I have no idea how to make it better or more rewarding. But I think many people get stuck and stop playing actively cause these reasons.
If you're not improving you shouldn't be ranking up over players who are.
E m i
E m i

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Barusamikosu_old_1
1,100 posts
Joined July 2014
Barusamikosu_old_1

Momiji wrote:

tell that to SyeruP who SSes all stream maps below 200bpm with HDHR
tell that to Epiphany who gets 50 ur on everything
tell that to My Aim Trash who gets 60 ur on hardcore bursty 270~285bpm maps
tell that to KeigoClear who seemingly never gets 100s on 180-240bpm streams
tell that to XII who gets 80 ur on everything 290-320bpm doesn't matter how streamy it is.
tell that to all the people who had to get 70 ur on long ass OD7 marathons to SS them, for 2 more pp than some 100 ur 2x100 score.
tell that to fuckin Cookiezi who ssed this: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/102999?m=0
with 59 ur (od10.3 ss tier) just to receive some retarded 300 pp range score.

Overall, you began to imply that acc is overrated and I bet 310bpm stream maps and 420bpm alt maps are overrated too because they're DT
Underrated post
-Makishima S-
2,434 posts
Joined August 2013
-Makishima S-

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
E m i
E m i

[Taiga] wrote:

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
^
One of reasons why I don't admit of being a polish citizen

Acc should always have highest value in pp formula, right after it combo.
Why not make miss count stronger? Missing 4 times as much (8 miss vs 2 miss) will eat like 10% of the pp, while halving your combo will eat 50% of the aim pp.
Actually I don't mind combo being the most important, but how many times more important than miss count should it be? Twice as important, 4 times as important? I think twice as important would be ok but what the game does currently is not even funny.

Extra:
1. Misses subtract a percentage of the total pp. Missing 5% of circles in a 200 combo map (10 misses) will result in a reduction significantly lesser than missing 2% of circles in a 5000 combo map for example. One more mechanism of making short maps overrated

2. Combo doesn't consider the difficulty of the map over time, spike placement is a mechanism for making maps overrated -.-
Omnipotence -
7 posts
Joined June 2016
Omnipotence -

Kiciuk wrote:

ppv2 is also shit.
Only autistics who mindlessly play 99%+ always FC get pp.
rest is screwed.
Agreed :o
DroidBass
154 posts
Joined December 2012
DroidBass
My main complaint is the huge amount of pp given at higher accuracy at high OD even if the map is really short *cof cof OKDAD or Elmo and the Monster Coockie eater*

Instead of basing almost everything accuracy pp at OD, instead focus at giving larger pp rewards from longer maps which aren't that high OD at all. Retrying on shorter maps still getting a lucky try with higher accuracy gives people pp which they don't deserve at all because of no constancy.

While we see OD7.5 maps which are x1700 combo that gives less from accuracy scaling than silly OD+9.75 (OD8 or higher +DT) maps of under x300 combo which is kinda absurd. Accuracy at higher OD needs to be LESS EXPONENTIAL mostly because pp is not a lineal system and there is the huge mistake of making accuracy an exponential variable. While I complain too about that 97-98% HR values are extremely low but that at +99% they start becoming so overrated.

Maybe you don't know, but in some DT/HR maps with OD close to 10 and at least x850 combo length if there are the right amount of hit circles, the diference between a 95% and 100% acc is over 100 pp !! which the difference between 99% and 100% is almost the half than in 95% to 100% !!. The problem actually is by under-rewarding accuracy below 98% at higher OD but kinda over-rewarding high accuracy at that OD.

And the problem is even bigger the lower stars a map has. As I said, pp rewards doesn't work lineally and that's the problem of actual pp accuracy values. For some people a 98% acc 200 pp values +0.01 pp but 275 pp 99.50% is like +40 or even +60 pp (which CAN happen in the cases of x850 maps with 4.8 - 5.3 stars with OD between OD9 and OD10)

Apart, that I'm completely agree with that some stuff done with lower acc but still FC are satisfactory but not so well rewarded in pp.
Yatorius
14 posts
Joined May 2017
Yatorius
Um, hi, I guess
Oneberry
2 posts
Joined December 2014
Oneberry
Yess!§
Findu
6 posts
Joined September 2017
Findu
I think making the PP gain of using mods like HD and DT less. i see the skill involved in using every mod but some of them feel very overweighted pp wise.
Skeletroll
72 posts
Joined January 2017
Skeletroll
Hidden should not give any bonus pp. It is a vision mod that basically becomes a preference at AR9 and higher. It doesn't make the map any harder 99% of the time yet adds loads of PP.
Ahnanmi
Ahnanmi
I guess :D
Loli_Rells
Loli_Rells
!
simtom
6 posts
Joined December 2010
simtom
Is it true ar11 gives +30% bonus PP ?
Kynan
497 posts
Joined September 2011
Kynan
https://puu.sh/yXzIE/97309fb326.png 30% bonus aim PP so basically yes since AR11 is only used on the very balanced TV size "aim" maps out there, and we all know it's definitely not memorization so it's totally normal that it gives that much of a bonus XD. Not to mention the ridiculous bonus for OD11 too even on low acc but that's normal too right ?

Also it's basically the last thing Tom ever did with PP, 3 years ago. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=pp
-GN
Champion Above Champions
734 posts
Joined June 2011
-GN
agreed on the accuracy thing at least. high accuracy on low OD(SS/single digit 100s on marathons) is underrated as well
Frikandel
200 posts
Joined December 2013
Frikandel
AR11 +30% WTF! I never knew that. Seems a bit excessive.

HD is free pp on almost every map that is already a pp map, because the patterns are super easy. In my experience it only makes streams harder the spacier they are. And, I am less capable of reading triples in big jumps when playing HDHR. This is just a personal thing but it is definitely caused by HD.
FINGERLOCK
155 posts
Joined March 2014
FINGERLOCK
is it ever realistic to believe that sliders will be properly weighted?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
I highly doubt it. It's too difficult and too much work for the small team that osu has.
simtom
6 posts
Joined December 2010
simtom

Kynan wrote:

https://puu.sh/yXzIE/97309fb326.png 30% bonus aim PP so basically yes since AR11 is only used on the very balanced TV size "aim" maps out there, and we all know it's definitely not memorization so it's totally normal that it gives that much of a bonus XD. Not to mention the ridiculous bonus for OD11 too even on low acc but that's normal too right ?

Also it's basically the last thing Tom ever did with PP, 3 years ago. https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=pp
So in 2-3 years every top score will be hdhrdt and anyone who can't read ar11 wont be able to compete. Shouldn't AR be a preference like it is in mania? You could just as easily give +30% pp for low AR because some people find it harder to aim there.
I TheCzar I
1 post
Joined December 2017
I TheCzar I

Tom94 wrote:

Hello everyone,

please leave your feedback for the Standard mode performance ranking here. Every suggestion is appreciated!

Changes to the system are documented in the changelog.


Its very good!
RudiStyle
1 post
Joined November 2017
RudiStyle
._.
TghMonster
1 post
Joined March 2018
TghMonster
Does acount standing can affect off pp gaining?? because in my dashboard historitical i get 26pp but in profile it's only counted 6 pp idk it's going so hard to gainning pp
sampai_
1 post
Joined May 2018
sampai_
@above https://osu.ppy.sh/help/wiki/Performance_Points#why-didn't-i-gain-the-full-amount-of-pp-from-a-map-i-played?
MTG
11 posts
Joined May 2018
MTG
Euh... bah c'est trop simple a avoir les pp
OriginallsSky
1 post
Joined October 2016
OriginallsSky
I do not get the right amount of pp that I should earn
In my profile it shows that I won 12 but in fact I did not get any pp

Help
dellar68
25 posts
Joined August 2018
dellar68
Loved beatmaps should have pp
Mec
7 posts
Joined January 2017
Mec
Hello:) here is a old map, i just back this game want to Rank it.
I hope i can get some advise for rank. thanks.
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/634927/#osu/1347057
Last edited by Mec , edited 1 time in total.
frutiger aero
330 posts
Joined October 2017
frutiger aero

Mec wrote:

Hello:) here is a old map, i just back this game want to Rank it.
I hope i can get some advise for rank. thanks.
https://osu.ppy.sh/beatmapsets/634927/#osu/1347057

not the place to ask
[Shiny]
153 posts
Joined June 2014
[Shiny]
Why don't make PP scores works as the same way as ranked score? Making one PP score per mapset would help very much in the most polemic PP problem nowadays: the farming (especially in those maps where the only purpose they exist is for PP farming)
Last edited by [Shiny] , edited 1 time in total.
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