uberpancake wrote:

mrburns123 wrote:

I just lost some pp, because I got a HR-Score (94.32% accuracy with FC) which replaced a DT-Score (86.62%, not FC).
The HR-play had a higher score and therefore was submitted. But the pp-rating of the HR-play was so low, that it doesn't even show up in my top ranks.
Kind of frustrating, even if the pp-rating is just a number on the screen.

I just wish, that there was a way to select a previous score and resubmit it again.
Otherwise I always have to be worried for my pp, if I play a map with a different mod.

The fix for this is underway.

For years.

osu!next will never come out

@Khelly: Players are preselecting maps based on the pp they give. Good maps might not get as much recognition due to a low reward while Tillerino keeps leading players into a one-way road of pp-maps. The problem is not that pp-maps are bad, the problem is that maps that don't follow a style that favors pp will see significantly less plays in favor of pp-maps for that reason.
On the other hand new players will grow up with exactly that maptype in mind and guess what happens if they map something - they will replicate exactly that type of map without ever seeing something else. Over time diversity in maps will die.
While this is more of a worst-case-scenario I'm 100% sure that this happens on a smaller scale and the longer it happens the larger the effect.

you are overthinking this way too hard, people will always come up with new ideas to make new sorts of maps and everyone maps in his own way.
there will always be pp maps because some maps are just easier to fc with high diff (in terms of pp system) then others, but nonetheless people will keep making bad ass maps in the future

Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.

I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q

bunnyluvr3000 wrote:

I'm just a simpuru guy that likes rhythm games and doesn't take ranks and mis-rhythms toooooooo seriously... but I wish I could keep my (-) 50,000 rank going above the (+) 50,000 rank Q _ Q

Well yeah, I'm pretty much the same. All I want is to stay in country #50, anything else is just a bonus. I just thought that the high level players would find that a nice change, since it's actually there where it would matter.

Hedgeturtle wrote:

Idea about changing OD and therefore pp gained.

First of all, let me explain what I think OD is and why it's needed. OD (Overall Difficulty) is a numerical value which dictates how accurately one has to press the circles and sliders. OD for sliders is more lenient, as you can press the slider beginning in the whole time window, and still receive a 300 for it, assuming you don't miss the ending and/or the slider ticks. OD is necessary so we can calculate accuracy and through it a miss can be defined (not hitting in time/hitting to early).

Now that's cleared, I'll explain how I see OD working at the moment. Currently, no matter how accurately you click the circles, if OD is 7, there really is no distinction even if you click as if OD was 9. What I mean is, with OD 7 one can press quite sloppily, and still gets the same amount of pp as one, who clicks very accurately.

What I want to change is that base OD of a map will remain, to keep calculating scores as is, but change the way pp is gained depending on how accurately you can click. Also, make OD user definable (for their convenience, so they can see when they start messing up), but OD can only be set as the what the mapper has set it, or above that. So basically, when a map gives 100 pp with OD 7 and 100% accuracy, when a user FCs the map with 100% accuracy and OD 9, they get 110 pp (random pp values). So if two players FC SS the map, but one does it with OD 7, the other with OD 9, they will get the same score, but the OD 9 player gets higher pp for it.

However, I don't want to calculate pp from user set OD, but rather the timing standard of their clicks. By timing standard I mean the absolute value of time difference between each click and time when it's supposed to be clicked added up and then divided by the amount of circles.

Basically Timing Standard = abs(real time - click time) *clicks / circles.

I used circles because currently sliders don't depend much on timing, but could be added as well.

And that Timing Standard would be used to calculate pp instead of accuracy based on OD. Minimum PP gained from FC SSing a map with mapper set OD will stay the same, just that the more accurate one clicks, the more pp they will get.

Sorry for the sloppy English, just wanted to get the idea across.

That's a long wall of text for asking acc to be determined by unstable rate instead of accuracy %. It's been suggested/asked before, and i believe UR isn't saved anywhere (that's why you have to rewatch a replay to check it) so it can't be used right now.

Sorry if this is not really related to Performance Points but I will submit it anyway... I was looking on https://web.archive.org at old osu! sites out of pure curiosity, I selected the earliest date I could find, which was 11th October 2008, and I obviously saw the site had changed a massive amount. Although once looking through the site in its entirety I realized there was no sort of ranking system or PP system as a matter of fact. I continued to a random date, 13th September 2008, and looked at the player ranking. I saw the usual people like Saturos, tobebuta and Cyclone e.t.c But one thing I realized straight away is there are tiny red or green arrow's and a number next to a players name, surely indicating whether they have gone down or up in ranks recently. Go too https://web.archive.org/web/20080913014 ... yerranking for the example I am looking at here.

Conclusion
I would really think it would be a good idea too reintroduce those rank down/upscale arrows and the amount of ranks they have down/up-scaled because it might not seem like it but It really does interest people like me who wants an easy way too view a players progress (without going on to https://web.archive.org and doing it manually)

Thanks ^_^ xxx

Quick overral suggestions here...

Increase PP gained with Lower AR +HD.
Drastically increase AR 9,8+ PP on easier beatmaps when player gets lower accuracy (being able to FC HR at that level is impressive).
Decrease PP gained by lower BPM DT beatmaps, increase PP gained by higher BPM DT beatmaps.
Either Increase PP gained with flashlight, or decrease its score multiplier (I dislike the fact that there are a lot of #1 players with lower PP gained from that beatmap).
Drastically increase DT score multiplier, to something like x2,5 (I did a few calculations about PP gained for that), increase HR score multiplier to x1,2, increase HT multiplier to x0,45, increase EZ multiplier to x0,65, and increase NF multiplier to x0,7 to match PP gained (Except for NF).

(I'm aware of Score v2 current multipliers)

everything is fine

Very Nice!

The ppv2 system works fine, but in my opinion in some sense it doesn't cooperate with current score system very well.

The thing is: on a same map, a play with much higher pp is highly possible to be blocked by a play with lower pp because of the score if the higher pp play isn't a fc one.

For example, Totori (aka rustbell)'s score on Remote Control [Max Control] HDDT: 608pp, 1563/1774 combo, 54,566,762 score.
Meanwhile, another friend of mine has a score like this: Remote Control [Max Control] No mod: 285pp, 1774/1774 combo(fc), 61,293,280 score (MUCH higher than Totori's score, but significantly less pp).
Which means, if Totori fced that map in no mod or even in just hd somet ime earlier, his brilliant HDDT score NEVER has a chance to be uploaded and added to his pp. In other words, a 280pp performance blocks a 600+pp performance. That totally doesn't make sense to me (and I believe to many others as well).

My recommendation will be, either modify current score (or pp) system to make sure that a play with higher pp can always beat another play with lower pp, or make we players be able to alter our own plays on bp list so that the rising players don't have to worry that their possible 2mod/3mod plays that worth 500+/600+ pps will be blocked by current 100/200 pp no mod fcs.

I know that I'm not the first one who come up with this opinion, but up to now I haven't seen much progress on this (or there actually is, in that case it'll be my bad XD). Right before I send this post, some tell me that "Just get used to it, it's common." But common doesn't mean reasonable. I love this game, and since it's becoming more and more confusing to me and some of my friends, I feel that I need to bring this topic to light again. I will be extremely happy if the update is on the way

The harder the mods , the more pp it gives. thats how i see it

Well, maybe someone already asked this, so, sorry but i will re-ask it.


Why, when i score a 98% acc in a 3,5/4,3 song, im not earning any pp? and, the "weight" i recieve is of 1% when i strike those scores in MY FIRST TRY.

Here is a ss

https://gyazo.com/ddbbe7d0d09affcd4926f1fec0bb6994

Thanks for reading, i want to know why im not weigthing normal. Cause, for example, "Tranquility "In my room" <- that one is a 3,7 stars difficulty and i weigthed it in a 100%, i dont really understand the system :l

Lugli wrote:

... i dont really understand the system :l

https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Performance_Points check "Weightage system".

I was thinking about why old map is not high pp enough, and I concluded that's because it doesn't apply changing the shape

For example


linear shape is easier than


bending shape

(Ignore the difficulty from distance between the circle, I can't find the different shape with same distance)



It also can make slider hard with adding tick
For example


linear slider is easier than


bending shape

I wonder does pp already apply this concept

I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher

destroyerwilly wrote:

I think that your rank placement should have some effect on your PP gained, not a lot of an effect, but maybe like 5-10% difference. that might also encourage players to play levels that are new or less popular. I also hear FL has the same PP multiplier as hidden... obviously, flashlight is much harder than hidden, i think it should be a little bit higher

Momiji wrote:

Hidden bonus = 18% aim, 2% accuracy
Flashlight bonus = 50% aim, 2% accuracy

Posted: 2 years ago

sou um demonio

Why do you lose what looks like to be around a thousand points for hitting 100s and 50s now? For newbies, at least, that doesn't look promising at all, to me.

Maybe make it so you can still get an S after like 1 or 2 misses? Like, every other game mode is just as forgiving :/ I have had this complaint from long time players before

Is there a minimum required acc to even get pp? I got a 96.92% S on a 2.8 star map that I've never played before and didn't gain a single point...

There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho

Sandy Hoey wrote:

There is no minimum accuracy required. However, if the map is easier then your top plays, you may not receive as much or any significant amount of pp. In your case though, because of your rank, you probably didn't receive the pp because of your connection to Bancho

I've never had any issues with my connection to Bancho that I'm aware of am I just playing maps that are considered "too easy"? It seems like 1/2 the maps I've been playing (including ones recommended from Tillerino) I just don't get pp for at all, and if I do it's like, 5 pp tops...

It could also be that you aren't donig as well as you think you are. Just because you have decent acc and an S doesn't mean that you didn't break your combo somewhere and didn't get the FC.

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.

To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on

Fanboy wrote:

Pittigbaasje wrote:

It makes me sad to see people having a full list of top plays barely reaching over 1 minute in length. In most online games I know, when there is one thing that trumps every other form of play, they will nerf said method in a way. I would love to see something similar happen to osu!.

At the moment a lot of mappers know how to optimize their maps for maximum pp gains. This has both positive and negative effects. I personally believe we should take a closer look and define what a healthy meta should be. Before the optimisation of mapping, doubletime used to be somewhat healthy iirc. I noticed that nowadays, you will get looked down upon when you only have dubbeltime in your top plays.

Personally, my logic tells me that this meta can't be right. Hopefully we won't have to spam 1 minute maps in order to climb the rankings. (Sure, git gut may be a response for this. But climbing becomes really hard and demotivating if everybody around you only plays 1 minute maps for easy 500 pp plays). I'm not sure if I'm the only one that feels this way though.

To be fairly honest usually those 1 minute high pp play maps are usually played with mods and at least to me are super difficult to get high accuracy on

I want to say that I do not mean to disrespect whatsoever.
From my experience, there seemed to be a huge variety of maps you can efficiently gain ranks from at the lower amounts of total performance points. However once you reach those borders of difficulty (ar10+, od10) alternatives are becoming more and more scarce. Furthermore, by no means did I say all 1 minute maps are easy, nor irrelevant. I'm sure people enjoy actually listening the music in there. (so do I, from time to time)

What bothers me is that they are picked deliberately to be mapped in a certain way so they yield the maximum amount they can give. And with the way pp is calculated at the moment, they are just too easy for the amount of performance points they give.

Performance points are the only true in game reward you get for playing the game. Players of any game will always try to optimise the way they get their rewards. Mappers feed the community with what they want. So neither are to blame. I feel like the only thing that can restore balance is to adjust the pp calculations.

It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.

B1rd wrote:

It's very hard or impossible to balance the pp system to the point where there is no imbalanced mapping styles. The best solution would be to get rid of it altogether.

I agree that it is very hard. Impossible, perhaps. However, I don't think that it has to be perfect in order for it to be fun and inviting to climb. Players will find the best way again eventually, and when that time comes, a small tweak can yet again solve the new problem with ease. Leaving the formula almost unchanged for years just doesn't seem right to me.

Sometimes I get better scores and lose PP... Otherwise everything's fine!

yeah i came back from a long break and noticed that theres mappers who straight up make metronome ar9.1-9.5 jump maps with high OD. its actually really gross some of these maps even get ranked, i think theres some serious circlejerk going on in this games mapping community and severely damaging this kind of mapping would do wonders for the game in the long run

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:

[Taiga] wrote:

https://osu.ppy.sh/ss/7954422

Looks about right - perfect pp formula, perfect pp system, everything is in place

:thinking:

honestly idk about dt but that map is harder than many many other 4.5 star maps for me.

Hello... Where I can know about pp formula for definite map? If it possible at all.

Short rant... yet again... how pp formula is complete horseshit garbage:




All 3 maps are over 5 min long. Marathon size maps.

Now sit tight:




"Los" - around 1:40, NOT EVEN 5*
haitai - 40 seconds

OD is same for all of them.

Wish incoming osu!lazer brings complete rework of this bullshit.

Los is higher OD, higher accuracy and with HD so it gives more pp. haitai is higher star rating but significantly shorter so it gives less pp.
What is the problem?

Weighting of map length = 30s or 5 min... doesn't matter for formula.
Sliders are non-existent for pp formula - main fucking issue.

Pretty much everything with pp formula.

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/1226973 - 99,40% acc FC with HD gives 374pp (amount of players able to pull this - can count on 2 hands)
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/591987 - 100% HDDT gives 363pp (amount of players able to pull this - A LOT)

Please, if someone tell me that 20s harumachi HDDT is harder than 5min USAO... must visit mental doctor asap.

Length is absolutely involved in pp values of a map, just not as much as you seem to want it.
Sliders are existent in pp formula. It looks at the shortest possible path you can take. The problem is that 1: it doesnt take into account that you have to follow the sliderball and 2: a jump will always be faster than a slider.

Map length is a difficult subject because how are you going to accurately use it in pp calculation? Should a map that's twice as long give twice as much pp? Then you will soon end up with superinflated pp ratings just because that 4* map is 20 minutes. Should a map that's similar star rating but longer always be worth more pp, even if the od is lower? When length weighting was first added people complained that it was too strong so it got nerfed, now you think it's not strong enough. It's not just something where you change 1 number and be done with it.

Also you could work on your attitude.

Map length is just weighted too little in comparison to how aim and speed values are weighted. Consistency is... lets be honest, one of harder skills to maintain because human nature of nerves and stress has his role in it. How many people out of all players in rank range from 50 to 10k are able to consistently play with high accuracy and FC in 10-20 tires marathon size maps and how many are able to do this to 1 min maps. While rank going up, more people starting to be able to play longer maps but it is still an issue if you gained your ranks by playing exclusively TV-Size maps.

Map length should have bigger impact for pp just because it is way easier to pull out 200pp score from daidai dt spamming it over and over than from for example this map: https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - OD9 7 min vs OD 9.7 2 min map.

Here is one thing:

https://osu.ppy.sh/b/53554?m=0 - 99% = ~220pp
daidai genome DT only 93% acc fc = ~223pp

Now, difficulty wise - pulling 99% on Emotional Skyscraper ~ World's End is wayyy harder than pulling 93% fc on daidai genome.

Sorry for my attitude, issues with pp formula still driving me out, even that I don't play actively anymore due this particular issue.