monstrata was the first mapper to break away from realism and nonpresentational abstract 'art,' the kind that any 3 year old with an editor could reproduce. Are we better off?
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02:03:140 - Here I do a full section of symmetrical sliders to juxtapose with the later section after 02:10:385 - when you hear the vocal switching.
Every slider, no matter how messy or clean, is done with a specific goal in mind. If you look at it in small sections like above, they will of course look disorganized as similar sound profiles see to be mapped to different shapes. I can assure you though, that these are all part of a bigger thread, and one that I believe, looking through the whole first half of the map, is consistent in its chaos.
You've mentioned that you specifically have bad blankets and weird overlaps, and that's fine, but weirdo schizophrenic sliders are not a part of that "OCD-triggering" theme, they're just frickin' lazy. It's like midnight right now and I'm going to bed so I won't link the sliders in particular, but I think you know which ones I'm talking about - they're not in any particular section, they're all over the place.
Also the fact that there's that 10-second section near the middle of the beginning and the post-schizo-slider 9 notes that gives the map a full 1.1* of rating, map would be 7.4* if those were more reasonable, damn
Anyway, monstrata's clearly growing more and more nonsensical as the thread goes forward and won't answer seriously to any kind of criticism on this map hiding it behind "philosophy" or whatever other deep thing he likes to bullshit that this map has, and it'll eventually get ranked because he's a BN and popular. If this was literally anyone else trying to justify his choices by "philosophy" rather than "the sounds clearly ask for it", they'd probably be bashed down to the ground and laughed at, but here we post "beautiful" and meme around it because "lol circeljerk Xddd rank dis". Worst part? Monstrata could very likely explain why he picked the shapes of most sliders, but he keeps hiding behind a "I have a bigger picture, look for the clean behind the ugly, move forward in life, youtubelink".
I still have no idea how someone like this is allowed to be one of the overseers of this section when he is the one currently shitting the most on the standards of it. Disappointing.
people have already time and time again stated the fact that monstrata contradicted himself by saying its a map he made for "lolz" and yet still has serious meaning behind it, and somehow that meaning is some shitty excuse of "philosophy". boi, if it were anyone who prompted the "artsy" argument first it'd be monstrata trying to be edgy and defending himself in the shittiest way possible lol. the fact that people are still defending monstrata is such a joke.
all i'm typing out here is an opinion. as much as i see no value in monstrata's map, perhaps you see no value in my argument. many things to mention about what you said about what i said but i'm seriously too lazy lol. typing out arguments is a pain in the ass, especially when it won't make sense to you anyways
fun fact: the circlejerk is to hate modern art not appreciate it xdddd
Let's get to the set itself.
[General]
Let me know if you decide to fix things and I'll see what I can do!
You also have to understand that when Monstrata waxes poetic in his long posts that he is meming. He's invoking Horace (he literally said "yolo" in his post), he's posting huge walls of quotes from Woody Allen and Confucious, he linked Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful." He actually posted the actual god damn Tatoe song. All these posts are not "Philosophy," they are "Memes." I really don't know how any of you can think he's actually being serious when he says those things.
His map isn't a sternfaced, semantic composition on death and its meaning. That's what he's saying when he wants people to laugh at/with the map. It's kind of a silly map with silly sliders, and the song itself is pretty out there and wild. It's an interesting map for people to say, "haha wow this is kinda weird/cool." That's what he means when he says laugh. He's not hoping that people think it's utter crap and ridicule the living shit out of it.
It's not a complete mess of a map. He's already said that "there's already enough structure involved, both in the consistency of my rhythm choices, and the flow/movement choices between these patterns" and has chosen the sliders to be messy out of everything else. There's method and reasoning that has gone into the mapping, it's not a throwaway joke. Does this mean that the map is above criticism? Of course not. There are things I don't like about it and have brought up that he has seriously responded to, and other criticism that he is still now dealing with where he doesn't even once mention philosophy.
It's okay to criticize the map. But we should begin by viewing the map as what it simply is, which is "messy sliders for a messy song." There's a lot of ways you can go from there. Maybe the sliders are TOO messy, maybe the sliders are messy in the wrong way, maybe they come across as lazy instead of messy. Maybe you disagree with the rhythm choices, the flow, the bad blankets. That's where you should start when you begin to criticize the map, and if Monstrata doesn't respond to your satisfaction then that's fine. But you have to know that if your purpose in criticizing the map is to make it exactly how you want because you don't like so many things about the map and you want him to make the sliders all pretty and the map all neat, then short of him bending over and letting you backseat map for him, you are not going to get what you want.
If you notice the types of criticism he has been responding to and how he has responded to it, you'll notice a pattern. Any stupid, ideological qualms about the map, he has responded with in a way that he feels the response is deserving of: equally ideological, equally vague, equally unspecific. But if you actually get down and talk about, say, red nodes and white nodes, he will respond in the same terms. Same with actual mods.
And "it won't make sense to you anyway?" Seriously? What kind of puerile grade school jab is that? I suppose next you'll be just responding with a short post: "too long didnt read i kno im better then u anyway xd"
In conclusion, can we really all just stop screaming out "ART!! ART!! ART!!" and make some more productive arguments? Because there are more productive arguments to be made. And if Monstrata is uncompromising and doesn't get anywhere with his map, that's on him. But we first have to give the mapper a little room for himself and stop trying to enforce our arbitrary standards on him for every little thing.
you are not bob
wank wank wank wank wank wank wank
there's my words
the drain time calculator is kind of broken because it doesn't really count spinners
Thanks for checking though!
I feel like decimal HP values won't really make much of a difference though, just because of how complicated HP drain actually is. 5 is really just there because people believe 3/4 to be too low for a map of this difficulty. I don't really wanna get into the math of decimal HP drain cuz I myself don't really know how to calculate it lol.
I fail to see what point you're making?
Will spread the news that they don't need to.
I think it would be a pretty neat idea to get multiple top players opinions on this map to improve it (since it is a 8.5* map...), but Monstrata might've already done that.
o btw
WARNING DRAMA INCOMING WARNING
I normally won't say such things, but if this was mapped by a new mapper, this will be no where close to a ranked status. I wouldn't even give a nomination for such stuff, but there are many first time mappers who can map like this.
Also on that note, the 3rd jump section to 4th seems MIGHTY different, like 1.5 times as spaced or smth. Since you wont nerf the last jump section how about buffing the 3rd one's spacing too. tl;dr check the spacing increases in the four jump sssectionss from 00:51:250 - to 01:02:330 - to make them get harder more linearly because its kinda weird rn
(no kds ofc just a reponse to one part of the mod)
Thanks for actually trying to be helpful, though!
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Topic Starter
I want to keep the sliders uniquely messy. I think there's already enough structure involved, both in the consistency of my rhythm choices, and the flow/movement choices between these patterns. Making the sliders symmetrical, or having their shape reflective of what they "sound like" just causes too much order in the map and defeats my intentions. The sliders are there to show chaos, and you can see the slider shapes and patterns devolving in places like 00:27:409 - (orderly to chaotic) 00:36:647 - as well, going from more ordered to chaotic as the vocals rise and become harsher. 01:33:779 - Etc.. the same idea here.Forlornly wrote:
stone-faced, inscrutable, the greatest memer of our time
a method actor who betrays nothing, he does not break character because he is character
although i like that the sliders are messy, I don't like that they seem completely random and distended in dissimilar ways. the song itself is not THAT unorganized, it's a bit heavy and unkempt but it still does maintain a level of structure and discipline. would you consider keeping some of the sliders messy but making them messy in the same way if they're expressing related sounds? for example
02:10:385 (1) -
02:11:311 (1) -
02:12:238 (1) -
02:13:164 (1) -
02:14:100 (1) -
02:15:026 (1) -
02:15:953 (1) -
02:16:880 (1) -
these sliders are all expressing the exact same sound but it seems like you went out of your way to make some of them as different as possible. i appreciate the concept and i think it works well to an extent, but some of these sliders are so jagged and threatening and others are smooth and have no corners at all. the map is more messy than the song and a good way to trim it just a little bit would be to at least make some of the messy sliders messy in the same way, particularly the long ambitious ones that emphasize heavy beats
some more examples:
01:42:186 (1) -
01:42:836 (1) -
01:43:942 (1) -
01:45:025 (1) -
01:45:670 (1) -
01:46:531 (1) -
01:47:183 (1) -
01:48:241 (3) -
etc
00:31:475 (1,2,3,4) - these sliders, though short, are so fundamentally different that just looking at them is far more jarring than the song itself. especially 00:33:832 (4) - when considering the previous three sliders, it's just so painful.
i absolutely love this 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - though, think it fits perfectly, his voice is seriously going wild at that point
didnt comment on flow or playability or anything because im not top 100 rank, but aesthetically i like it for the most part
02:03:140 - Here I do a full section of symmetrical sliders to juxtapose with the later section after 02:10:385 - when you hear the vocal switching.
Every slider, no matter how messy or clean, is done with a specific goal in mind. If you look at it in small sections like above, they will of course look disorganized as similar sound profiles see to be mapped to different shapes. I can assure you though, that these are all part of a bigger thread, and one that I believe, looking through the whole first half of the map, is consistent in its chaos.
That's how it is for everything, if people like it then it has some sort of value. Just because you don't like or appreciate it and think it's silly doesn't mean it's fraudulent and some dirty "circlejerk." I don't really get why people think this map is so esoteric and highbrow "art." It's very simple: messy sliders to represent a messy song. I personally think the sliders are TOO messy but that's ok, that's just where monstrata and people like me might disagree. Shiirn did the same thing with his Comfort mapset -- uneven flow to represent a silly, playful song. And people disparagingly called it "art" just because the concept seemed so wild and otherworldly, when really it was just a little bit unusual from the norm.estellia- wrote:
call it art, call it philosophy
but if no one circlejerks it will have no value
this is why "modern" art is considered one of the largest, most successful circlejerk ever to plague our planet lol
Like my comment if you cry yourself to sleep everyday
Comment this if you think mr.monstrata is dungeonmaster
Bubble this for VINXIS nudes
Rank it for drama
Comment this if you think mr.monstrata is dungeonmaster
Bubble this for VINXIS nudes
Rank it for drama
This sentence has the highest word:bullshit ratio of this year thus far. Just fess up and admit they're made to move in one general direction but have largely randomly placed nodes. That's the entire point of the sliders being ugly as hell while maintaining play structure. You and I both know you haven't spent that much time looking at every single growl and scream. Unless the goal in mind is "lazily shit out a slider and bullshit away critique instead of give consistency to the chaos", then you've failed your goal.Monstrata wrote:
Every slider, no matter how messy or clean, is done with a specific goal in mind.
My entire personal issue is that the randomly-placed nodes (And if you want to prove me wrong, have fun bullshitting sliders for a few hours, seriously don't waste your time doing that) just make the map look lazy rather than chaotic or ugly. Random red nodes would be more effective than random grey ones, at least then you'll have actual movement instead of insignificant wiggling.Monstrata wrote:
If you look at it in small sections like above, they will of course look disorganized as similar sound profiles see to be mapped to different shapes. I can assure you though, that these are all part of a bigger thread, and one that I believe, looking through the whole first half of the map, is consistent in its chaos.
You've mentioned that you specifically have bad blankets and weird overlaps, and that's fine, but weirdo schizophrenic sliders are not a part of that "OCD-triggering" theme, they're just frickin' lazy. It's like midnight right now and I'm going to bed so I won't link the sliders in particular, but I think you know which ones I'm talking about - they're not in any particular section, they're all over the place.
Also the fact that there's that 10-second section near the middle of the beginning and the post-schizo-slider 9 notes that gives the map a full 1.1* of rating, map would be 7.4* if those were more reasonable, damn
Topic Starter
I think you're misquoting me if you think "specific goal in mind" means every individual node. The specific goal is exactly to make them move in general directions, reflect certain flows I want to use, and be all around chaotic in their appearance, constantly variating, and sometimes even obnoxious.
Idk what exceptionally "weirdo" sliders you are talking about so feel free to link them. However, since each slider is uniquely designed, at least assume I did it on purpose first. You're welcome to disagree and call them weird though.
Idk what exceptionally "weirdo" sliders you are talking about so feel free to link them. However, since each slider is uniquely designed, at least assume I did it on purpose first. You're welcome to disagree and call them weird though
.I have a bit of a quirky mouse.
It oftentimes doubleclicks whenever I click. It's a common problem that mouses get over time, and I have other mouses, but this mouse is the most comfortable so I'm going to use it until it stops working entirely.
As you'd expect, the doubleclicks can get fairly disconcerting when constructing sliders, sometimes turning what I wanted to be a grey node into a red one, or placing two grey nodes several pixels apart.
If I were to create a slider and randomly click along my intended path, I'd end up with a mess of red nodes and weirdly placed grey ones.
Kind of like this.
Or this?
Or this one, which looks like I had a seizure on that cute little mouse of mine.
They're not unrankable, but they're certainly insulting as they're simply lazy and you'd probably dislike if anyone else were doing it, but because it's you you think you can get away with it.
01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - still needs to die in a fire
It oftentimes doubleclicks whenever I click. It's a common problem that mouses get over time, and I have other mouses, but this mouse is the most comfortable so I'm going to use it until it stops working entirely.
As you'd expect, the doubleclicks can get fairly disconcerting when constructing sliders, sometimes turning what I wanted to be a grey node into a red one, or placing two grey nodes several pixels apart.
If I were to create a slider and randomly click along my intended path, I'd end up with a mess of red nodes and weirdly placed grey ones.
Kind of like this.
Or this?
Or this one, which looks like I had a seizure on that cute little mouse of mine.
They're not unrankable, but they're certainly insulting as they're simply lazy and you'd probably dislike if anyone else were doing it, but because it's you you think you can get away with it.
01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - still needs to die in a fire
does that mean my mouse is dying :/\/\/\/
that sounds like some hanzer level shit right there
Because the mapper has, in a form to make other people shut up and to make fun of everyone as to not answer issues regarding his maps, constantly compared this to it.-kevincela- wrote:
Why are you even comparing mapping to literature?Sophia wrote:
Do you think mapping is a form of art which could even one day hope to compare to literature?
Anyway, monstrata's clearly growing more and more nonsensical as the thread goes forward and won't answer seriously to any kind of criticism on this map hiding it behind "philosophy" or whatever other deep thing he likes to bullshit that this map has, and it'll eventually get ranked because he's a BN and popular. If this was literally anyone else trying to justify his choices by "philosophy" rather than "the sounds clearly ask for it", they'd probably be bashed down to the ground and laughed at, but here we post "beautiful" and meme around it because "lol circeljerk Xddd rank dis". Worst part? Monstrata could very likely explain why he picked the shapes of most sliders, but he keeps hiding behind a "I have a bigger picture, look for the clean behind the ugly, move forward in life, youtubelink".
I still have no idea how someone like this is allowed to be one of the overseers of this section when he is the one currently shitting the most on the standards of it. Disappointing.
already missing the point, so many things have been brought up about this map and you're neglecting everything elseForlornly wrote:
That's how it is for everything, if people like it then it has some sort of value. Just because you don't like or appreciate it and think it's silly doesn't mean it's fraudulent and some dirty "circlejerk." I don't really get why people think this map is so esoteric and highbrow "art." It's very simple: messy sliders to represent a messy song. I personally think the sliders are TOO messy but that's ok, that's just where monstrata and people like me might disagree. Shiirn did the same thing with his Comfort mapset -- uneven flow to represent a silly, playful song. And people disparagingly called it "art" just because the concept seemed so wild and otherworldly, when really it was just a little bit unusual from the norm.estellia- wrote:
call it art, call it philosophy
but if no one circlejerks it will have no value
this is why "modern" art is considered one of the largest, most successful circlejerk ever to plague our planet lol
people have already time and time again stated the fact that monstrata contradicted himself by saying its a map he made for "lolz" and yet still has serious meaning behind it, and somehow that meaning is some shitty excuse of "philosophy". boi, if it were anyone who prompted the "artsy" argument first it'd be monstrata trying to be edgy and defending himself in the shittiest way possible lol. the fact that people are still defending monstrata is such a joke.
all i'm typing out here is an opinion. as much as i see no value in monstrata's map, perhaps you see no value in my argument. many things to mention about what you said about what i said but i'm seriously too lazy lol. typing out arguments is a pain in the ass, especially when it won't make sense to you anyways
Topic Starter
I don't see how those sliders are "lazy". If anything, it takes longer to set up all the nodes. Red nodes end curves and reduce the number of actual turns a slider can have before running out of length. White nodes on the other hand, can theoretically be used indefinitely since they only affect the slider formula for one curve contained between the sliderhead/rednode/slidertail. You're just interpretting hard jagged zigzagged slider shapes using red nodes as the best way to create chaotic sliders. I simply disagree.
lol.
what the fuck are you smoking, and where can i get someMonstrata wrote:
Mapping is an art. I understand that the concept might be difficult for you to comprehend. Perhaps you should try mapping before you reject it as a form of expression.
Mapping is not literature, it is philosophy. Literature is what you read, it is simply a medium from which ideas are spread. Other mediums include film, photography, anime, music, poetry, painting, food... The list continues. Fundamentally, every piece of art strives to convey a message, however small it may be. At the elementary level, drawings, sketches, photos, paintings, they try to show us the world, from the eyes of the artist. From a different perspective. With a different focus. At a different angle. Using different juxtapositions. They try to show us beauty, to revel in the magnificence of nature, of flavours, of music in harmony. Art allows for ideas to be filtered through the perspective, the opinions, the mental process of the artist. Art doesn't need to impact society, or any form of culture in the world to be successful. It just needs to get its message across. You may disagree with the artist, but whether you agree or disagree, you still process the artist's idea.
While no TV Size Anime Opening by LiSA did make an impact in my life, another song really moved me to pursue my dreams and ambitions, and to really live life to the fullest. It told me that even if the world was ending, even if the entirety of the world were to melt away, that as long as I had something to live for, something that kept me going, my life would not be a waste. The artist acknowledges how ephemeral life can be. That we are simply a ripple in the ocean of life. However, she sings that no matter how futile we may feel, even if the world were to disappear, that nothing should stop us from making the most of our lives. In a sense, she echoes the works of poet Horace's Odes by urging her audience to seize the day. This concept of "carpe diem" is interwoven even in society today, through the more vernacular "yolo" but the artists' messages from two thousand years ago to today continue to be relevant. This song really taught me to make the most out of my life. To do what I want to do, to not look back, to not waste my time worrying, to fully immerse myself in life's beauty. Life is fleeting, so lets make the most out of it! Please listen to this song, perhaps it will give you a new lease on life as it did mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULHQPm8hmVk
estellia- wrote:
call it art, call it philosophy
but if no one circlejerks it will have no value
this is why "modern" art is considered one of the largest, most successful circlejerk ever to plague our planet lol
fun fact: the circlejerk is to hate modern art not appreciate it xdddd
my 2c on this
I feel really bad if the sliders in this map do not satisfy your usual 3°-tilted and slightly-curved ones, but if it really bothers you to that degree; feel free to play estellia's version or, even if you can't, map it yourself. I know that puffy answer is really lame and overmeme'd, but when I browse through the thread, the main message from some people I get is: I don't like it, I think it's ugly, so it must be ugly to everyone. I think that 'map yourself' is perfectly applicable to this situation in this case.
If this map can make you write essay-lengthed posts where you try to override your own standards and style on someone else's set, then maybe it is just as pathetic as modern art has gotten.
You guys made your point clear; you do not like the map. People do understand that after the first post or two - if you have a big problem with any of these issues, feel free to contact the mapper yourself and talk in private, instead of repeating the same message by spamming this thread with highly-subjective self-centered opinions.
Yes, this ranking process is mostly community-driven, but the ones who gave critique are not the whole community, now are they? If there are a handful of people who can also enjoy this, and this fits the current RC objectively, I don't find this set a problem.
If this map can make you write essay-lengthed posts where you try to override your own standards and style on someone else's set, then maybe it is just as pathetic as modern art has gotten.
You guys made your point clear; you do not like the map. People do understand that after the first post or two - if you have a big problem with any of these issues, feel free to contact the mapper yourself and talk in private, instead of repeating the same message by spamming this thread with highly-subjective self-centered opinions.
Yes, this ranking process is mostly community-driven, but the ones who gave critique are not the whole community, now are they? If there are a handful of people who can also enjoy this, and this fits the current RC objectively, I don't find this set a problem.
Let's get to the set itself.
[General]
- I don't think 100% accurate timing can be achieved with this song, but I assume you already made the final timing changes?
- Are you still going to change the HP?
- Still my doubts on metadata. マキシマム ザ ホルモン vs. マキシマムザホルモン and Maximum the Hormone vs. MAXIMUM THE HORMONE. I hope you can confirm this.
https://twitter.com/MTH_OFFICIAL
http://www.55mth.com/pc/index.php
http://www.55mth.com/pc/discography/
http://www.maximumthehormone.jp/news.html
- 00:28:922 (1,2,3,4) - Feels cramped compared to other patterns in this section.
- 00:40:119 (2) - Not sure what you're trying to emphasize with this note. The vocal slip is too vague to me, while the guitar is still 1/3.
- 00:41:339 (5,3) - Hmm.. had trouble reading this, perhaps because both the head and end of (3) are covered by (5). Not too problematic, but (3) is already appears when (5) is still active... up to you..
- 00:43:260 (5,1) - For both emphasis, flow and readability. I think it's best to separate these two a bit more.`
- 00:45:199 (1) - 00:50:493 (2) - 01:40:522 (8) - 01:52:133 (1) - 02:14:447 (2) - 02:15:026 (1) - 02:16:532 (3) - 02:23:625 (1) - 02:30:920 (12) - 02:40:786 (5) - For once, I can agree with Shiirn a bit. The last two red notes are impossible to actually see it's affects on the slider body, but I feel they do affect SV somehow. Considering the rules have remained untouched concerning sliders like these, maybe simplify it a bit. The other slider mentioned, should be considered to be simplified, that's all.
- 00:56:971 (4,5) - Small angled jumps like these play quite awkward on lower BPM, so I doubt they play nicely on high. Seeing that the angles of previous patterns were pretty sharp, maybe do that here too.
- 01:37:630 (5) - Seeing other jump patterns, kinda expected a larger jump here instead of one straight line to emphasize the guitar.
- 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4) - 02:26:362 (1,2,3,4) - Completely up to you, but maybe some readability issues in the kicksliders can be solved with having NC pattern consistent of 4 objects each. (would really help with stuff like 02:26:778 (5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - etc.)
- 01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - lol this on high bpm doesnt look smart tbh (tho if a player CAN fc the rest of the diff, this should be really doable if the player is at that level)
- 01:46:197 (3,1) - 01:50:506 (3,1) - etc. Due to this being 300 BPM tapping + red line earlier than red tick, I find that this might be hard to catch. Either closer or slider-based jump instead feels more right to me. Maybe it's just me...
- 01:47:749 (3) - left out on purpose right? just asking lol
- 01:59:570 (1) - Sounds like it's almost blending in with the cymbal crash itself, would raise volume for this object.
- 02:02:564 (2,3,4,5) - Considering the intensity of the sounds, kinda expected larger spacing tbh. Maybe use 1.1x like 02:09:830 (2,3,4,5) - ?
- 02:21:427 (4,5) - Feels weird since it's so close to the slider end... up to you.
- 02:24:229 (3,4,5,1,2,3) - Sounds off. (especially (4) and (3, next combo))
- 02:29:206 (4) - Compared to most other overlaps, this slider is like 75% covered, unlike others which are still -kinda- readable.
- 02:43:239 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Wish you made the custom stack a little larger in spacing (like 02:39:686 (1,1,1) - )nso you can actually see the NCs lel, they are readable on it's own, especially since most skins do not have 300 skinned, but the stack with the previous stream doesn't make this exactly more comfortable.
- 04:49:418 (1) - Unsnapped.
Let me know if you decide to fix things and I'll see what I can do!
There is value in your argument in that it brings up (and is itself) a kneejerk reaction for many people who encounter something they find unfamiliar or ugly, which is to promptly slap the label "art" on it and declare it pretentious frivolity. Is it a logically sound argument? No, I don't think so.estellia- wrote:
already missing the point, so many things have been brought up about this map and you're neglecting everything else
people have already time and time again stated the fact that monstrata contradicted himself by saying its a map he made for "lolz" and yet still has serious meaning behind it, and somehow that meaning is some shitty excuse of "philosophy". boi, if it were anyone who prompted the "artsy" argument first it'd be monstrata trying to be edgy and defending himself in the shittiest way possible lol. the fact that people are still defending monstrata is such a joke.
all i'm typing out here is an opinion. as much as i see no value in monstrata's map, perhaps you see no value in my argument. many things to mention about what you said about what i said but i'm seriously too lazy lol. typing out arguments is a pain in the ass, especially when it won't make sense to you anyways
You also have to understand that when Monstrata waxes poetic in his long posts that he is meming. He's invoking Horace (he literally said "yolo" in his post), he's posting huge walls of quotes from Woody Allen and Confucious, he linked Christina Aguilera's "Beautiful." He actually posted the actual god damn Tatoe song. All these posts are not "Philosophy," they are "Memes." I really don't know how any of you can think he's actually being serious when he says those things.
His map isn't a sternfaced, semantic composition on death and its meaning. That's what he's saying when he wants people to laugh at/with the map. It's kind of a silly map with silly sliders, and the song itself is pretty out there and wild. It's an interesting map for people to say, "haha wow this is kinda weird/cool." That's what he means when he says laugh. He's not hoping that people think it's utter crap and ridicule the living shit out of it.
It's not a complete mess of a map. He's already said that "there's already enough structure involved, both in the consistency of my rhythm choices, and the flow/movement choices between these patterns" and has chosen the sliders to be messy out of everything else. There's method and reasoning that has gone into the mapping, it's not a throwaway joke. Does this mean that the map is above criticism? Of course not. There are things I don't like about it and have brought up that he has seriously responded to, and other criticism that he is still now dealing with where he doesn't even once mention philosophy.
It's okay to criticize the map. But we should begin by viewing the map as what it simply is, which is "messy sliders for a messy song." There's a lot of ways you can go from there. Maybe the sliders are TOO messy, maybe the sliders are messy in the wrong way, maybe they come across as lazy instead of messy. Maybe you disagree with the rhythm choices, the flow, the bad blankets. That's where you should start when you begin to criticize the map, and if Monstrata doesn't respond to your satisfaction then that's fine. But you have to know that if your purpose in criticizing the map is to make it exactly how you want because you don't like so many things about the map and you want him to make the sliders all pretty and the map all neat, then short of him bending over and letting you backseat map for him, you are not going to get what you want.
If you notice the types of criticism he has been responding to and how he has responded to it, you'll notice a pattern. Any stupid, ideological qualms about the map, he has responded with in a way that he feels the response is deserving of: equally ideological, equally vague, equally unspecific. But if you actually get down and talk about, say, red nodes and white nodes, he will respond in the same terms. Same with actual mods.
And "it won't make sense to you anyway?" Seriously? What kind of puerile grade school jab is that? I suppose next you'll be just responding with a short post: "too long didnt read i kno im better then u anyway xd"
In conclusion, can we really all just stop screaming out "ART!! ART!! ART!!" and make some more productive arguments? Because there are more productive arguments to be made. And if Monstrata is uncompromising and doesn't get anywhere with his map, that's on him. But we first have to give the mapper a little room for himself and stop trying to enforce our arbitrary standards on him for every little thing.
DuckNess
i am fucking sorry but this makes me wanna killmyselfMonstrata wrote:
Mapping is an art. I understand that the concept might be difficult for you to comprehend. Perhaps you should try mapping before you reject it as a form of expression.
Mapping is not literature, it is philosophy. Literature is what you read, it is simply a medium from which ideas are spread. Other mediums include film, photography, anime, music, poetry, painting, food... The list continues. Fundamentally, every piece of art strives to convey a message, however small it may be. At the elementary level, drawings, sketches, photos, paintings, they try to show us the world, from the eyes of the artist. From a different perspective. With a different focus. At a different angle. Using different juxtapositions. They try to show us beauty, to revel in the magnificence of nature, of flavours, of music in harmony. Art allows for ideas to be filtered through the perspective, the opinions, the mental process of the artist. Art doesn't need to impact society, or any form of culture in the world to be successful. It just needs to get its message across. You may disagree with the artist, but whether you agree or disagree, you still process the artist's idea.
While no TV Size Anime Opening by LiSA did make an impact in my life, another song really moved me to pursue my dreams and ambitions, and to really live life to the fullest. It told me that even if the world was ending, even if the entirety of the world were to melt away, that as long as I had something to live for, something that kept me going, my life would not be a waste. The artist acknowledges how ephemeral life can be. That we are simply a ripple in the ocean of life. However, she sings that no matter how futile we may feel, even if the world were to disappear, that nothing should stop us from making the most of our lives. In a sense, she echoes the works of poet Horace's Odes by urging her audience to seize the day. This concept of "carpe diem" is interwoven even in society today, through the more vernacular "yolo" but the artists' messages from two thousand years ago to today continue to be relevant. This song really taught me to make the most out of my life. To do what I want to do, to not look back, to not waste my time worrying, to fully immerse myself in life's beauty. Life is fleeting, so lets make the most out of it! Please listen to this song, perhaps it will give you a new lease on life as it did mine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULHQPm8hmVk
Tatoe
The map is fun, it just feels.. overmapped at some places
If I was good at modding I'd do it, but I'd probably only be a waste of time on reading, the only thing I don't like is the sliderjump-ish-parts, but that's just me.
If I was good at modding I'd do it, but I'd probably only be a waste of time on reading, the only thing I don't like is the sliderjump-ish-parts, but that's just me.
Topic Starter
Quote: appleeaterx
Let's get to the set itself.
[General]
Let me know if you decide to fix things and I'll see what I can do!
---
Thanks for this mod apple >//< I hope I covered the slider-node issue thoroughly.
EDIT: Removed the quote so the images load better.
my 2c on this
I feel really bad if the sliders in this map do not satisfy your usual 3°-tilted and slightly-curved ones, but if it really bothers you to that degree; feel free to play estellia's version or, even if you can't, map it yourself. I know that puffy answer is really lame and overmeme'd, but when I browse through the thread, the main message from some people I get is: I don't like it, I think it's ugly, so it must be ugly to everyone. I think that 'map yourself' is perfectly applicable to this situation in this case.
If this map can make you write essay-lengthed posts where you try to override your own standards and style on someone else's set, then maybe it is just as pathetic as modern art has gotten.
You guys made your point clear; you do not like the map. People do understand that after the first post or two - if you have a big problem with any of these issues, feel free to contact the mapper yourself and talk in private, instead of repeating the same message by spamming this thread with highly-subjective self-centered opinions.
Yes, this ranking process is mostly community-driven, but the ones who gave critique are not the whole community, now are they? If there are a handful of people who can also enjoy this, and this fits the current RC objectively, I don't find this set a problem.
If this map can make you write essay-lengthed posts where you try to override your own standards and style on someone else's set, then maybe it is just as pathetic as modern art has gotten.
You guys made your point clear; you do not like the map. People do understand that after the first post or two - if you have a big problem with any of these issues, feel free to contact the mapper yourself and talk in private, instead of repeating the same message by spamming this thread with highly-subjective self-centered opinions.
Yes, this ranking process is mostly community-driven, but the ones who gave critique are not the whole community, now are they? If there are a handful of people who can also enjoy this, and this fits the current RC objectively, I don't find this set a problem.
Let's get to the set itself.
[General]
- I don't think 100% accurate timing can be achieved with this song, but I assume you already made the final timing changes?
- Are you still going to change the HP? Okay i'll change this now. I think i've testplayed the diff enough now lol.
- Still my doubts on metadata. マキシマム ザ ホルモン vs. マキシマムザホルモン and Maximum the Hormone vs. MAXIMUM THE HORMONE. I hope you can confirm this. The spaces don't really matter, but removing them is better so I'll do that. Also ALL CAPS seems to be how they are stylizing their name so i'll do that too.
https://twitter.com/MTH_OFFICIAL
http://www.55mth.com/pc/index.php
http://www.55mth.com/pc/discography/
http://www.maximumthehormone.jp/news.html
- 00:28:922 (1,2,3,4) - Feels cramped compared to other patterns in this section. True. Made this less cramped.
- 00:40:119 (2) - Not sure what you're trying to emphasize with this note. The vocal slip is too vague to me, while the guitar is still 1/3. Ehh, At first I wanted the triplet there to maintain that 1/2 clicking rhythm, cuz starting on a red tick felt off to me in terms of clicking rhythm, but It's actually not as bad as I thought, so I just removed the triplet and made 00:39:852 (6) - a repeat slider instead lol.
- 00:41:339 (5,3) - Hmm.. had trouble reading this, perhaps because both the head and end of (3) are covered by (5). Not too problematic, but (3) is already appears when (5) is still active... up to you.. I changed the shape of slider 5 so it's easier to see 3.
- 00:43:260 (5,1) - For both emphasis, flow and readability. I think it's best to separate these two a bit more.`Added some much needed triangles here.
- Note: This is going to be for Shiirn/other people who want to better understand my intentions for slider-nodes as well00:45:199 (1) - Trimmed the ends and removed unnecessary white nodes. 00:50:493 (2) - Trimmed it down too. 01:40:522 (8) - Here too, trimmed it down 01:52:133 (1) - This one's intentional and I think the design is pretty good actually x__x02:14:447 (2) - Reduced some reds and whites02:15:026 (1) - Changed some of the nodes. Basically i made the angle change between red nodes less sharp so theres less of an effect on apparent slider speed 02:16:532 (3) - I think this one's fine though, since it's just a slight bump. 02:23:625 (1) - This one's fine too, since the red nodes aren't changing up the slider's apparent speed. It'll play just like a blanket slider with the same speed, except the edges are sharp.02:30:920 (12) - Made them mostly white nodes instead.02:40:786 (5) - This one's just a bump too so I'd like to keep xP. For once, I can agree with Shiirn a bit. The last two red notes are impossible to actually see it's affects on the slider body, but I feel they do affect SV somehow. Considering the rules have remained untouched concerning sliders like these, maybe simplify it a bit. The other slider mentioned, should be considered to be simplified, that's all. I was imitating some of val0108's sliders tbh xD. Basically, sliders have a consistent SV which we can't alter. What we can do, is use red nodes to alter the apparent SV which is what SV will feel like to players. Having red notes up and down in a zigzag formation perpendicular to the slider will cause the slider to scrunch and slow down, as (given a horizontal slider) there is now more Y axis for the slider to cover. My intentional wasn't to change the apparent SV, it was just to create a lot of small bumps and wonky slider paths. White nodes only increase the formula for a slider curve, but they don't actually end a curve function in a slider, only red nodes and slider-ends do, so in a sense you could get a slider with 40+ white nodes all scrunched up together, and be able to replicate the speed of the slider with just one white node. The second slider with one white node would just look a lot cleaner, but SV and apparent SV remain unchanged. The difference is when more red nodes come into play, because they can actually create apparent SV changes. So I think the majority of my changes here were to make these red nodes as subtle as possible. IE, when they are used, they don't create angles that could make the slider appear slower than necessary. From the images below, you can see that white nodes, despite there being a lot more, have a much lesser visual effect on the slider's apparent velocity, whereas red notes, because they end curves, end up having a much larger effect.
- 00:56:971 (4,5) - Small angled jumps like these play quite awkward on lower BPM, so I doubt they play nicely on high. Seeing that the angles of previous patterns were pretty sharp, maybe do that here too. Easy fix
- 01:37:630 (5) - Seeing other jump patterns, kinda expected a larger jump here instead of one straight line to emphasize the guitar. Fair enough, changed to something normal xD.
- 01:38:058 (1,2,3,4) - 02:26:362 (1,2,3,4) - Completely up to you, but maybe some readability issues in the kicksliders can be solved with having NC pattern consistent of 4 objects each. (would really help with stuff like 02:26:778 (5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4) - etc.) I'd prefer to keep the NCs how they are. Idk, i don't think NC'ing will help with readability in this case, so i'm using the NC's to show how the kicksliders will play. When there's an NC theres a change in flow/movement from up/down to rotational, or left/right etc...
- 01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - lol this on high bpm doesnt look smart tbh (tho if a player CAN fc the rest of the diff, this should be really doable if the player is at that level) Hey that's my reasoning too. But I think the pattern can still work on high bpm. It works as a nice ending to all the 1/4 kicksliders and I think the song is kinda building up to this point.
- 01:46:197 (3,1) - 01:50:506 (3,1) - etc. Due to this being 300 BPM tapping + red line earlier than red tick, I find that this might be hard to catch. Either closer or slider-based jump instead feels more right to me. Maybe it's just me... Made them closer. I already NC'ed them for better readability but yea i think i should supplement that with spacing too.
- 01:47:749 (3) - left out on purpose right? just asking lol Yea this one's too close. I made 3 farther away tho.
- 01:59:570 (1) - Sounds like it's almost blending in with the cymbal crash itself, would raise volume for this object. Raised
- 02:02:564 (2,3,4,5) - Considering the intensity of the sounds, kinda expected larger spacing tbh. Maybe use 1.1x like 02:09:830 (2,3,4,5) - ? I think the 90degree-ness of these squares are enough. Its coming out of a slow section so I don't want to make it too drastic just yet. The next section is really alternator-friendly, and you can even single-tap it with relative ease because of the rhythm, so I think the low spacing here is better since the rhythm density already contributes a bit to overall difficulty. The second one leads into a more intense section so yea, larger spacing.
- 02:21:427 (4,5) - Feels weird since it's so close to the slider end... up to you. I kinda like this xP.
- 02:24:229 (3,4,5,1,2,3) - Sounds off. (especially (4) and (3, next combo)) Fixed.
- 02:29:206 (4) - Compared to most other overlaps, this slider is like 75% covered, unlike others which are still -kinda- readable. Made it less covered.
- 02:43:239 (1,2,1,2,1,2) - Wish you made the custom stack a little larger in spacing (like 02:39:686 (1,1,1) - )nso you can actually see the NCs lel, they are readable on it's own, especially since most skins do not have 300 skinned, but the stack with the previous stream doesn't make this exactly more comfortable. Sure.
- 04:49:418 (1) - Unsnapped. Report me.
Let me know if you decide to fix things and I'll see what I can do!
---
Thanks for this mod apple >//< I hope I covered the slider-node issue thoroughly.
EDIT: Removed the quote so the images load better.
Changed metadata, fixed another snap issue. The slider designs have been explained in details in the post above, let's see how this goes.
Also, MA´s weird concurrent thing seems like a bug.
Rebubbled #1.
Also, MA´s weird concurrent thing seems like a bug.
Rebubbled #1.
So, we discussed some patterns, but... we didn't really fix anything, it was most likely pure clarification.
I love you apple.
Extremely minor thing
02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) -
02:32:313 (9,10,11,12) -
Why does the former have a new combo but not the latter? It's the same sounds so I don't see why it would be inconsistent.
02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) -
02:32:313 (9,10,11,12) -
Why does the former have a new combo but not the latter? It's the same sounds so I don't see why it would be inconsistent.
just saying before you go for qualify, congrats xd
do i do it
do it Ascendance, no balls
i honestly wouldn't be surprised if you could rank your aspire map if this becomes ranked
i honestly wouldn't be surprised if you could rank your aspire map if this becomes ranked
Topic Starter
After a lot of discussion, we've decided that we will flame this map in a day or two. I think it's fair to give the community a chance for some final words. I don't want to make the icons seem rushed, a lot of individual work has been put into pushing this forward, it just happens that everyone was available and ready to icon it today.
Meet Bob. Bob plays osu. Bob finds a song he likes and wants to map. Bob knows the song doesn't translate well into the game, but Bob maps it because he enjoys mapping and he enjoys the song. Bob really enjoys his map, and Bob uploads it to the osu website so that other people might stumble across his map and enjoy it. Bob lets his map graveyard because he understands that the song itself is unrankable and that not everything he uploads needs to be ranked.Monstrata wrote:
I think it's fair to give the community a chance for some final words
you are not bob
Monstrata wrote:
After a lot of discussion, we've decided that we will flame this map in a day or two. I think it's fair to give the community a chance for some final words. I don't want to make the icons seem rushed, a lot of individual work has been put into pushing this forward, it just happens that everyone was available and ready to icon it today.
wank wank wank wank wank wank wank
there's my words
Topic Starter
I see the song has really moved you.Shiirn wrote:
Monstrata wrote:
After a lot of discussion, we've decided that we will flame this map in a day or two. I think it's fair to give the community a chance for some final words. I don't want to make the icons seem rushed, a lot of individual work has been put into pushing this forward, it just happens that everyone was available and ready to icon it today.
wank wank wank wank wank wank wank
there's my words
maximum the hormone is basically like
edge in a can
edge in a can
Can you rank Quaver next please?Monstrata wrote:
After a lot of discussion, we've decided that we will flame this map in a day or two. I think it's fair to give the community a chance for some final words. I don't want to make the icons seem rushed, a lot of individual work has been put into pushing this forward, it just happens that everyone was available and ready to icon it today.
AR10 just feels a lot more fitting when playing this. And HP 4.5-4.7 feels more fitting than 5. idk that's just my opinion on the matter...
This isn't 5 minutes, where is the set? Or am I missing something.
Edit: Totally forgot about the ol' long spinner at the end.
Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 5 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 5 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.And isn't the approved section dead anyways? I don't see why they would break their guidelines and use a section that has been unused since 2.5 years back.
Edit: Totally forgot about the ol' long spinner at the end.
XII wrote:
This isn't 5 minutes, where is the set? Or am I missing something.Approved Category is only for Marathon maps. Long maps with over 5 minutes of draining time fit the Approval category. Only then they are allowed to be single difficulty mapsets. If they are below 5 minutes of draining time, a full difficulty spread is needed and the map will have to be ranked instead.And isn't the approved section dead anyways? I don't see why they would break their guidelines and use a section that has been unused since 2.5 years back.
the drain time calculator is kind of broken because it doesn't really count spinners
Totally forgot about that![alt][F4] wrote:
the drain time calculator is kind of broken because it doesn't really count spinners
MAXIMUM THE CIRCLEJERK - A-L-I-E-N [Stop! Stop complaining about my map and let me rank this!]
Topic Starter
The NC's here are placed based on movement and flow, and not rhythm. Since its one consistent updown or leftright movement it has one combo, where as the previous ones can be split into two sets of flows/movements with backforth going into clockwise/counterclock.FailureAtOsu wrote:
Extremely minor thing
02:28:885 (1,2,3,4) -
02:32:313 (9,10,11,12) -
Why does the former have a new combo but not the latter? It's the same sounds so I don't see why it would be inconsistent.
Thanks for checking though!
AR 9.7 is high enough imo. Theres already been a lot of discussion going into this, you can check out p/5253277 if you'd like to read more into detail! Thanks for your concerns.N1k0 wrote:
AR10 just feels a lot more fitting when playing this. And HP 4.5-4.7 feels more fitting than 5. idk that's just my opinion on the matter...
I feel like decimal HP values won't really make much of a difference though, just because of how complicated HP drain actually is. 5 is really just there because people believe 3/4 to be too low for a map of this difficulty. I don't really wanna get into the math of decimal HP drain cuz I myself don't really know how to calculate it lol.
Posting for clarification.
https://www.discogs.com/Maximum-The-Hor ... se/4887492
Official run time is 4:46. Making this MP3 an edited version. Yet no mention of this in the metadata. (Even though as far as Im aware editing MP3's for more length is against a rule)
https://www.discogs.com/Maximum-The-Hor ... se/4887492
Official run time is 4:46. Making this MP3 an edited version. Yet no mention of this in the metadata. (Even though as far as Im aware editing MP3's for more length is against a rule)
Editing the song to be shorter is very different to editing it to be longer.Battle wrote:
often times if the mp3 is edited by the user, you still use the same metadata as the source, for example if you cut a song to be shorter such as this due to it being repetitive you still keep the same metadata
I fail to see what point you're making?
Topic Starter
It's allowed currently. The thread is a discussion about making mp3 extension against the rules. I thought i'd link it so people can discuss there instead.lilelf29 wrote:
Wait it's allowed?Monstrata wrote:
mp3 is slightly edited yes. It's not against the current ruleset, but you're welcome to discuss it further, here: t/417977.
I thought you just linked to a thread that says you can't extend the mp3 file, unless I'm missing something.
This song should not be qualified nor ranked.
Half of the map is some kind of lullaby that is FC:able by 5 digit players, including me, this necessarily might not be a bad thing, but I personally find it unfit for a 8.5* map.
Other than that, I find that the map isn't of greater quality, even though I probably wouldn't be able to do shit better myself, but I just find it to play awfully bad.
Half of the map is some kind of lullaby that is FC:able by 5 digit players, including me, this necessarily might not be a bad thing, but I personally find it unfit for a 8.5* map.
Other than that, I find that the map isn't of greater quality, even though I probably wouldn't be able to do shit better myself, but I just find it to play awfully bad.
Oh damn, I know a few people that are under the impression it's not allowed and so instead are making mapsets of 4min+ songs.Monstrata wrote:
It's allowed currently. The thread is a discussion about making mp3 extension against the rules. I thought i'd link it so people can discuss there instead.
Will spread the news that they don't need to.
Topic Starter
Well, if you extend, you should try to make it as natural as possible too. It's sometimes quite hard to extend songs past 5 minutes, especially if theyre like just 4:01 or something. There are a lot of songs i want to map, that are like 4:40-4:50 that I just can't tastefully extend haha.lilelf29 wrote:
Oh damn, I know a few people that are under the impression it's not allowed and so instead are making mapsets of 4min+ songs.Monstrata wrote:
It's allowed currently. The thread is a discussion about making mp3 extension against the rules. I thought i'd link it so people can discuss there instead.
Will spread the news that they don't need to.
placeholder
MillhioreF wrote:
Remember: there's nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard.
Not every map has to be marathon size. Couldn't you just make more diffs?Monstrata wrote:
Well, if you extend, you should try to make it as natural as possible too. It's sometimes quite hard to extend songs past 5 minutes, especially if theyre like just 4:01 or something. There are a lot of songs i want to map, that are like 4:40-4:50 that I just can't tastefully extend haha.
It's quite literally 11 seconds. C'mon friend.Sliproads wrote:
Not every map has to be marathon size. Couldn't you just make more diffs?Monstrata wrote:
Well, if you extend, you should try to make it as natural as possible too. It's sometimes quite hard to extend songs past 5 minutes, especially if theyre like just 4:01 or something. There are a lot of songs i want to map, that are like 4:40-4:50 that I just can't tastefully extend haha.
I love being lazy!Enkidu wrote:
It's quite literally 11 seconds. C'mon friend.
hi mothew!!Microsoft Vista wrote:
monstrata reply to wank wank wank but not bob
While I don't agree with mappers editing mp3s to push their songs into the marathon category rather than having to map a full spread, complaining about it in this thread will just make you look stupid.
I think the song is perfectly fine, it's music, it has a beat and a melody, and therefore can be adequately mapped. This map meets all of the ranking criteria, isn't over the top ridiculous, and while it does look ugly (which mind you, is the entire purpose of the mapping style that Monstrata chose to use), it is passable (perhaps even fcable).
The best part is it's a consistent group of people who talk crap in these threads. Mappers shouldn't have to put up with this stuff, their map is their opinion, and while everyone is entitled to have one, and you can debate back and forth about them, you can't just blow off the mapper's effort with these stupid backhanded comments like "remap" or "wow this map is BAD." That's like telling an artist that you don't like their painting, and then when they ask why you respond with "it's just bad and I don't like it." If you disagree, please provide some sort of argument that makes sense, and if the mapper tells you to shove it, there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't like the map, don't install it, don't play it. Every day there are probably 3-4 maps ranked that you never even hear about or play, just turn this map into another one of those. It's not like ranking maps like these will destroy the mapping community here in osu!, so don't act like it.
Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.
I think the song is perfectly fine, it's music, it has a beat and a melody, and therefore can be adequately mapped. This map meets all of the ranking criteria, isn't over the top ridiculous, and while it does look ugly (which mind you, is the entire purpose of the mapping style that Monstrata chose to use), it is passable (perhaps even fcable).
The best part is it's a consistent group of people who talk crap in these threads. Mappers shouldn't have to put up with this stuff, their map is their opinion, and while everyone is entitled to have one, and you can debate back and forth about them, you can't just blow off the mapper's effort with these stupid backhanded comments like "remap" or "wow this map is BAD." That's like telling an artist that you don't like their painting, and then when they ask why you respond with "it's just bad and I don't like it." If you disagree, please provide some sort of argument that makes sense, and if the mapper tells you to shove it, there's nothing you can do about it. If you don't like the map, don't install it, don't play it. Every day there are probably 3-4 maps ranked that you never even hear about or play, just turn this map into another one of those. It's not like ranking maps like these will destroy the mapping community here in osu!, so don't act like it.
Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.
I haven't read this thread much, but the only opinion of a top player that I've seen is Elysion's on their stream and iirc they just said "Doesn't play well."total terror wrote:
Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.
I think it would be a pretty neat idea to get multiple top players opinions on this map to improve it (since it is a 8.5* map...), but Monstrata might've already done that.
brb adding 4:30 of cheering to the end of a 30 second map for marathon length
Rafis did say he never wanted it to ever get ranked, make of that what you willisopaharuntikka wrote:
I haven't read this thread much, but the only opinion of a top player that I've seen is Elysion's on their stream and iirc they just said "Doesn't play well."total terror wrote:
Also the amount of >20k ranked players commenting on the playability of this map is far too high and honestly just silly.
I think it would be a pretty neat idea to get multiple top players opinions on this map to improve it (since it is a 8.5* map...), but Monstrata might've already done that.
lmao wh it's still basically the same regarding metadatalilelf29 wrote:
Editing the song to be shorter is very different to editing it to be longer.Battle wrote:
often times if the mp3 is edited by the user, you still use the same metadata as the source, for example if you cut a song to be shorter such as this due to it being repetitive you still keep the same metadata
I fail to see what point you're making?
blahpy wrote:
MillhioreF wrote:
Remember: there's nothing wrong with mapping for the graveyard.
o btw
thts the point u deege n -_ -estellia- wrote:
also vinxis the structure of your post is so fucked can you get good at being estellia- tyvm
Who cares about ugli aesthetics tbh
Gonna talk about other things blahblah w/e
Mod time!
I'm kinda sad that after these jumps 00:18:626 (1,2,3,4) - here that 00:19:486 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - these are so low spaced, since the later ones have the extra punchy drum to go along with them but have a lower spacing. I feel like the low spaced patterns should be before, while the jumpy/snappy sliders should be after.
00:31:475 (1,2,3,4) - If you play these fully it creates some nice snaps with a bunch of spacing which feels cool, however on the next slider pattern here 00:33:189 (1,2,3,4) - I feel as though 00:33:189 (1,2) - these are too cramped up spacing wise to give the same feel. It's minor yes, but every little helps. A 10 degree rotation seems to make the spacing work and keep the same aesthetical style here.
00:34:474 (5) - Unsnapped sliderend, should end later but the slider end is snapped slightly early, may want to wiggle it to place.
(00:34:933 (1) - No idea what this is mapped to, if its an instrument, it should start on the blue tick (00:34:986 - or smth), if its mapped to the vocal, it starts on the red tick (00:35:040 - ) but ssince it coverss both its really confussing.)
00:34:933 (1,2) - This spacing is awkwardly low compared to the slider SV here, I'd honestly suggest you lower the SV more to make it less weird to play here.
01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Well you've probably heard enough about these but still I need to say it but from a different perspective. 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - and 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - have similar spacing because the sounds are similar, now 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is increased spacing because there is an extra cymbal sound, right? If that is the case, then there should be no reason to further increase the spacing to 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern, since the previous mentioned one is identical in sound and volume to this.
01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - I can see that you have a bunch of different shapes here, but if possible, could you make 01:38:165 (2,4) - more vertical? I know you can just hit the slider heads and play right, but it would still encourage a more vertical and sharp snapping motion if they were more vertical. You can just rotate the sliders.
I'd also like to mention that 01:39:130 (3) - this slider is the only one that goes up a bit before it goes down, whilst being completely playable if you include leniency in the mix, it still discourages a cooler, consistent vertical play which could be happening instead, so this iss the only slider I'd suggest to make differently and move the redpoint downwards on.
02:09:830 (2,3,4,5) - Two things here.
Obvious no.1) The linear play is really awkward after an entire map of little linear movement and only snapping pretty much, so it feels plainly wrong to put in since it is so out of the maps context flow/wrist-movement-wise
No.2) This looks too damn neat. Needs to be MESSIER.
So a solution to both of those is below I made for ya. Also at the same time, that idea/solution gets lower in spacing as the pitches lower with every sound so it seems more with the music.
That's it for input that doesn't relate to aesthetics wheee hopefully it makes it more enjoyable to play cya
Gonna talk about other things blahblah w/e
Mod time!
I'm kinda sad that after these jumps 00:18:626 (1,2,3,4) - here that 00:19:486 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - these are so low spaced, since the later ones have the extra punchy drum to go along with them but have a lower spacing. I feel like the low spaced patterns should be before, while the jumpy/snappy sliders should be after.
00:31:475 (1,2,3,4) - If you play these fully it creates some nice snaps with a bunch of spacing which feels cool, however on the next slider pattern here 00:33:189 (1,2,3,4) - I feel as though 00:33:189 (1,2) - these are too cramped up spacing wise to give the same feel. It's minor yes, but every little helps. A 10 degree rotation seems to make the spacing work and keep the same aesthetical style here.
00:34:474 (5) - Unsnapped sliderend, should end later but the slider end is snapped slightly early, may want to wiggle it to place.
(00:34:933 (1) - No idea what this is mapped to, if its an instrument, it should start on the blue tick (00:34:986 - or smth), if its mapped to the vocal, it starts on the red tick (00:35:040 - ) but ssince it coverss both its really confussing.)
00:34:933 (1,2) - This spacing is awkwardly low compared to the slider SV here, I'd honestly suggest you lower the SV more to make it less weird to play here.
I used 0.8sv and it kept the look whilst making the spacing even, thus less weird to transition from
00:48:192 (3) - For editors sake, can you simplify this slider down? I have an awkward feeling this can be called out for burai for no reason idk01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Well you've probably heard enough about these but still I need to say it but from a different perspective. 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - and 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - have similar spacing because the sounds are similar, now 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is increased spacing because there is an extra cymbal sound, right? If that is the case, then there should be no reason to further increase the spacing to 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern, since the previous mentioned one is identical in sound and volume to this.
01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - I can see that you have a bunch of different shapes here, but if possible, could you make 01:38:165 (2,4) - more vertical? I know you can just hit the slider heads and play right, but it would still encourage a more vertical and sharp snapping motion if they were more vertical. You can just rotate the sliders.
I'd also like to mention that 01:39:130 (3) - this slider is the only one that goes up a bit before it goes down, whilst being completely playable if you include leniency in the mix, it still discourages a cooler, consistent vertical play which could be happening instead, so this iss the only slider I'd suggest to make differently and move the redpoint downwards on.
02:09:830 (2,3,4,5) - Two things here.
Obvious no.1) The linear play is really awkward after an entire map of little linear movement and only snapping pretty much, so it feels plainly wrong to put in since it is so out of the maps context flow/wrist-movement-wise
No.2) This looks too damn neat. Needs to be MESSIER.
So a solution to both of those is below I made for ya. Also at the same time, that idea/solution gets lower in spacing as the pitches lower with every sound so it seems more with the music.
That's it for input that doesn't relate to aesthetics wheee hopefully it makes it more enjoyable to play cya
The same could be said about a lot of wub maps since they usually start out like 2* mapsQTS wrote:
This song should not be qualified nor ranked.
Half of the map is some kind of lullaby that is FC:able by 5 digit players, including me, this necessarily might not be a bad thing, but I personally find it unfit for a 8.5* map.
"this necessarily might not be a bad thing". What I meant was that I think it's fine to bring in "easier" parts into songs as "breaks" but when half-ish of the song consists of that, I personally think it's a bit too much.Side wrote:
The same could be said about a lot of wub maps since they usually start out like 2* mapsQTS wrote:
This song should not be qualified nor ranked.
Half of the map is some kind of lullaby that is FC:able by 5 digit players, including me, this necessarily might not be a bad thing, but I personally find it unfit for a 8.5* map.
Girl wrote:
hi mothew!!Microsoft Vista wrote:
monstrata reply to wank wank wank but not bob
Topic Starter
Thanks for your input!! I'll apply the changes with the flame since I didn't make any major changes to gameplay.Arphimigon wrote:
Who cares about ugli aesthetics tbh
Gonna talk about other things blahblah w/e
Mod time!
I'm kinda sad that after these jumps 00:18:626 (1,2,3,4) - here that 00:19:486 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - these are so low spaced, since the later ones have the extra punchy drum to go along with them but have a lower spacing. I feel like the low spaced patterns should be before, while the jumpy/snappy sliders should be after. Swapped 3 and 4 to keep the spacing lower.
00:31:475 (1,2,3,4) - If you play these fully it creates some nice snaps with a bunch of spacing which feels cool, however on the next slider pattern here 00:33:189 (1,2,3,4) - I feel as though 00:33:189 (1,2) - these are too cramped up spacing wise to give the same feel. It's minor yes, but every little helps. A 10 degree rotation seems to make the spacing work and keep the same aesthetical style here. I don't like this change. I don't think you should play those sliders fully anyways. Well, i don't, and I find the angles to be fine as they are, taking advantage of leniency.
00:34:474 (5) - Unsnapped sliderend, should end later but the slider end is snapped slightly early, may want to wiggle it to place. it's snapped tnough.
(00:34:933 (1) - No idea what this is mapped to, if its an instrument, it should start on the blue tick (00:34:986 - or smth), if its mapped to the vocal, it starts on the red tick (00:35:040 - ) but ssince it coverss both its really confussing.) snapped to that buzz that definitely lands on the downbeat. The vocals are a kinda awkward transition out of the 1/4 repeats, same with the guitar that's on the blue tick, i just wanted something with a very straightforward rhythm even if it meant following something that was more a noise than a sound. I think with this set up though, the rhythm is pretty easy to see, whereas if i used a bluetick or red tick rhythm after a 1/4 repeat it would be hard to catch.
00:34:933 (1,2) - This spacing is awkwardly low compared to the slider SV here, I'd honestly suggest you lower the SV more to make it less weird to play here. Intentional anti-jumps so I have more spacing increases to work with when i transition back into 1/2 rhythms.I used 0.8sv and it kept the look whilst making the spacing even, thus less weird to transition from00:48:192 (3) - For editors sake, can you simplify this slider down? I have an awkward feeling this can be called out for burai for no reason idk It's not burai. It's not possible to create burais without red nodes xD.
01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Well you've probably heard enough about these but still I need to say it but from a different perspective. 00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - and 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - have similar spacing because the sounds are similar, now 00:58:150 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - is increased spacing because there is an extra cymbal sound, right? If that is the case, then there should be no reason to further increase the spacing to 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - this pattern, since the previous mentioned one is identical in sound and volume to this. oh, Bonsai already mentioned these to me with the same perspective about identical sounds. Basically, I originally wanted the entire section to be this big, and i created an imtermediate section instead with the first half. When I map, I like to create easier and more difficult versions if the music provides similar rhythms and patterns, just to keep things interesting. I want the intensity to build up here as the player continues through this section, so you can see that the jumps after the sliders get progressively larger and larger.
01:38:058 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1,2,3,4,5) - I can see that you have a bunch of different shapes here, but if possible, could you make 01:38:165 (2,4) - more vertical? I know you can just hit the slider heads and play right, but it would still encourage a more vertical and sharp snapping motion if they were more vertical. You can just rotate the sliders. Those are my favourites though ;c.
I'd also like to mention that 01:39:130 (3) - this slider is the only one that goes up a bit before it goes down, whilst being completely playable if you include leniency in the mix, it still discourages a cooler, consistent vertical play which could be happening instead, so this iss the only slider I'd suggest to make differently and move the redpoint downwards on. Sure, fixed.
02:09:830 (2,3,4,5) - Two things here.
Obvious no.1) The linear play is really awkward after an entire map of little linear movement and only snapping pretty much, so it feels plainly wrong to put in since it is so out of the maps context flow/wrist-movement-wise idk.. I like this pattern. I want a break from all the rotational flow since the song is breaking into a harsher section (and you can see the sliders changing shape).
No.2) This looks too damn neat. Needs to be MESSIER. I think the flow choice already contributes, without making the structure messy yet, because this is still part of the previous section imo.
So a solution to both of those is below I made for ya. Also at the same time, that idea/solution gets lower in spacing as the pitches lower with every sound so it seems more with the music.
That's it for input that doesn't relate to aesthetics wheee hopefully it makes it more enjoyable to play cya
WARNING DRAMA INCOMING WARNING mmm i'll give my opinion here, if this map get ranked, then any map can be, since the sliders are not different to any new mapper first map sliders, they are bad and they make the map looks ugly.
Yeah the song is chaotic, but doesn't sounds bad, but the map is chaotic and looks bad that's the difference, I always support your maps, Monstrata. But in my opinion this shouldn't be ranked in the current state, I read your responses to similar arguments to mine and they are not objetives, when you say is *art* we can recall in situations like this:
which I believe is happening here, anyways not every map have to be ranked and the community response you are getting is mostly negative (for what I can see in the thread), just rework that sliders, you are a good mapper and I'm sure you can build a chaotic map that looks nice and not the current one that looks like someone first attempt of mapping, sorry Monstrata, but I have to said it too.
Yeah the song is chaotic, but doesn't sounds bad, but the map is chaotic and looks bad that's the difference, I always support your maps, Monstrata. But in my opinion this shouldn't be ranked in the current state, I read your responses to similar arguments to mine and they are not objetives, when you say is *art* we can recall in situations like this:
which I believe is happening here, anyways not every map have to be ranked and the community response you are getting is mostly negative (for what I can see in the thread), just rework that sliders, you are a good mapper and I'm sure you can build a chaotic map that looks nice and not the current one that looks like someone first attempt of mapping, sorry Monstrata, but I have to said it too.
Topic Starter
Hmm... I know a couple of people are comparing the sliders here to stuff you find on beginners' maps. I wonder how many beginners actually create sliders like this... because I think most beginners will use straight / overly curved sliders. I also think my rhythm, spacing, and flow choices are certainly not reflective of "beginner" maps. I think aesthetically, the map is just very different from anything you would usually find. The vocals are harsh, the song is really chaotic, and I think the slider designs recreate this harshness best, without compromising actual playability elements like rhythm, flow, spacing. Some other ideas I had going into this map were to create really jarring and "harsh" flows and awkward spacings, but I ultimately decided on something simple like slider designs, which would be purely visual. I'm confident my patterns play well, they just appear ugly.
The other thing here though, is that the slider designs are also being used as juxtaposition between the metal part and the winny upload part. You can clearly see a distinction between the two.
I think the map is controversial, so naturally there will be people who dislike it. I don't see a majority though, and I think judging the community's response based on the people in this thread can create really lopsided results.
The other thing here though, is that the slider designs are also being used as juxtaposition between the metal part and the winny upload part. You can clearly see a distinction between the two.
I think the map is controversial, so naturally there will be people who dislike it. I don't see a majority though, and I think judging the community's response based on the people in this thread can create really lopsided results.
I think the main thing that makes this all feel so disrespectful is that the bullshit is just really obvious. Your reasons are flimsy, your map is clearly intended to be various combinations of "ez 8* pass" "hardest ranked map" "haha its super hard half the time and super boring the other half" "I can make something extremely ugly and anti-meta too guys! and rank it!" and "i can map what i want and bullshit anything past", if I'm missing anything let me know.
I'm an honest fellow. I like it when people are honest, even if their actions aren't.
But we all know that you'd rather just let people let you do whatever the fuck you please, so since I personally have no capability of forcing you to do anything, only my own words, which are oft bereft with language that leads people to disregard me outright from offense.
I'm done dealing with your self-serving fantasy map, myself. I no longer care if you want to embarrass yourself further among any worthwhile peers. This has long since gone beyond the pale.
I'm an honest fellow. I like it when people are honest, even if their actions aren't.
But we all know that you'd rather just let people let you do whatever the fuck you please, so since I personally have no capability of forcing you to do anything, only my own words, which are oft bereft with language that leads people to disregard me outright from offense.
I'm done dealing with your self-serving fantasy map, myself. I no longer care if you want to embarrass yourself further among any worthwhile peers. This has long since gone beyond the pale.
Topic Starter
Shiirn wrote:
lol.
Actually this is what I feel too.Natsu wrote:
mmm i'll give my opinion here, if this map get ranked, then any map can be, since the sliders are not different to any new mapper first map sliders, they are bad and they make the map looks ugly.
Yeah the song is chaotic, but doesn't sounds bad, but the map is chaotic and looks bad that's the difference, I always support your maps, Monstrata. But in my opinion this shouldn't be ranked in the current state, I read your responses to similar arguments to mine and they are not objetives, when you say is *art* we can recall in situations like this:
which I believe is happening here, anyways not every map have to be ranked and the community response you are getting is mostly negative (for what I can see in the thread), just rework that sliders, you are a good mapper and I'm sure you can build a chaotic map that looks nice and not the current one that looks like someone first attempt of mapping, sorry Monstrata, but I have to said it too.
I normally won't say such things, but if this was mapped by a new mapper, this will be no where close to a ranked status. I wouldn't even give a nomination for such stuff, but there are many first time mappers who can map like this.
you're the me i want to be, couldn't have been said betterShiirn wrote:
I think the main thing that makes this all feel so disrespectful is that the bullshit is just really obvious. Your reasons are flimsy, your map is clearly intended to be various combinations of "ez 8* pass" "hardest ranked map" "haha its super hard half the time and super boring the other half" "I can make something extremely ugly and anti-meta too guys! and rank it!" and "i can map what i want and bullshit anything past", if I'm missing anything let me know.
I'm an honest fellow. I like it when people are honest, even if their actions aren't.
But we all know that you'd rather just let people let you do whatever the fuck you please, so since I personally have no capability of forcing you to do anything, only my own words, which are oft bereft with language that leads people to disregard me outright from offense.
I'm done dealing with your self-serving fantasy map, myself. I no longer care if you want to embarrass yourself further among any worthwhile peers. This has long since gone beyond the pale.
The simple fact that this wouldn't even be considered for ranking if a mapper with no ranked maps mapped it is enough proof that this shouldn't be ranked.
00:51:250 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - This section is the same, if not harder than 00:54:726 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - due to the back and forth motion vs the more common, easier to snap triangle motion, and the spacing is the same, so if you are going by that logic how about buffing the 2nd section?Monstrata wrote:
oh, Bonsai already mentioned these to me with the same perspective about identical sounds. Basically, I originally wanted the entire section to be this big, and i created an imtermediate section instead with the first half. When I map, I like to create easier and more difficult versions if the music provides similar rhythms and patterns, just to keep things interesting. I want the intensity to build up here as the player continues through this section, so you can see that the jumps after the sliders get progressively larger and larger.
Also on that note, the 3rd jump section to 4th seems MIGHTY different, like 1.5 times as spaced or smth. Since you wont nerf the last jump section how about buffing the 3rd one's spacing too. tl;dr check the spacing increases in the four jump sssectionss from 00:51:250 - to 01:02:330 - to make them get harder more linearly because its kinda weird rn
(no kds ofc just a reponse to one part of the mod)
Topic Starter
I'm confident there's a big difference between this map and beginner maps. You can judge it on aesthetics, but I don't believe any beginners will use aesthetics like this anyways. You see mostly linear/curved simple sliders with grid-snap on beginner maps. I think there's an assumption being made that beginners will map ugly sliders. I don't think that is true at all... I think beginner maps just aren't cohesive because they don't know much about flow/spacing/emphasis/rhythm, and other key aspects of mapping.
That aside though, after reading a lot of comments and getting a lot of feedback on chat from different BN's, I've decided to make some changes for the better:
That aside though, after reading a lot of comments and getting a lot of feedback on chat from different BN's, I've decided to make some changes for the better:
- 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - After a lot of discussion, I've decided its best to nerf the jumps here a bit. They've been scaled down to 0.85x their original spacing.
- 01:41:058 (1,2) - The jump-stream has been removed and replaced with 1/4 repeat sliders.
- 02:32:742 (1,2) - The stream here has also been replaced with 1/4 repeat sliders
- 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - The jumps here have been scaled down by 0.8x their original spacing.
Topic Starter
@Arphi I ended up nerfing the jumps instead so I guess I ended up fixing your original point haha. Thanks for understanding and providing alternatives though!
we have change 2 parts pattern, missing NC and of course more ugly
let's try !
Qualify
let's try !
Qualify
This seems to be receiving more negativity than HW's maps tbh.
No, Beatmap Nominators can qualify anything.samaki wrote:
i guess monstrata can really rank anything.. lol
02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,1,1) - I thought TAG4 patterns are unrankable?
That reflects the song's atmosphere at least \:D/
I really liked the second half of it tho
I really liked the second half of it tho
congratz o/
come on, i'm ready for love :3
Edited per request
come on, i'm ready for love :3
Edited per request
The preview point doesn't seems to be snapped
rip
edit: sorry
rip
edit: sorry
this ruins my song select experience pls fixZerss wrote:
The preview point doesn't seems to be snapped
rip
edit: sorry
actually, that's something dumb but since it's noticed in the ranking criteria 'bout perfectly timed bpm and unsnapped elements, I think it could be worth the change. it costs nothing to dq & change this to rerank the map afterAkali wrote:
this ruins my song select experience pls fixZerss wrote:
The preview point doesn't seems to be snapped
rip
edit: sorry
- unused image file "konachan.com - 181663 cola_(gotouryouta) original robot ruins scenic stars.jpg"
Preview point and green lines being unsnapped isn't an unrankable issue (in fact a lot of times it's better if the preview point is unsnapped because of song select's fade-in)Zerss wrote:
The preview point doesn't seems to be snapped
rip
edit: sorry
Thanks for actually trying to be helpful, though!
Topic Starter
Doesn't need to be snapped.Zerss wrote:
The preview point doesn't seems to be snapped
rip
edit: sorry
You gotta delete and redl.isopaharuntikka wrote:
- unused image file "konachan.com - 181663 cola_(gotouryouta) original robot ruins scenic stars.jpg"