Jaitonat wrote:

Thre's nothing fundamentally wrong with speedranking sure, but i feel if you rank your map -too- fast it doesnt get subjected to enough opinions and as such will obviously not be as good as it could be.

And lastly, modding exists to point out issues with a map specifically to the mapper. if we can't "complain" to the mapper then who the fuck do we complain to

ok dad im leaving now hf with ur shitmap lo

Kibbleru wrote:

02:26:362 - what the actual fuck

btw u need ar 10

Fort wrote:

i don't care for your single meme :>

you're not mazzerin who map crazy deathstreams in every maps he made
you're not Ekoro who mapped Time Freeze with extra effort
you're not lesjuh who made a good map in 2009
you're not val0108 who made a really stylish sliders map
you're not hanzer who made a stream with a jump
you're not me who map a crazy fullscreen jumps
you're not irreversible who makes cs7 maps
you're not cherry blossom who makes symmetrical maps
you're not failureatosu who maps stale memes
you're not KuranteMelodii who name the longest diff name in the world

im waiting for epic qualified posts in here (and waiting people who can pass this map without NF or HT)

nice ending btw

Broccoly wrote:

wait why are you basing your decision for AR on 1/4 clicking rhythms when 1/4 rhythm is just pure 280 stream..?
its the 1/2 jumps (including sliderjumps) and not the streams that usually 'tell' the player whether the AR fits or not..

Monstrata wrote:

My reasoning is more visuals than playability.

fieryrage wrote:

from a first look at the map honestly it's not that bad, the triples in the beginning and the 1 minute mark are awful to play though but i hear that's being remapped to 1/3 anyways

i will say:

- for an 8.5 star map this needs AR 10, i read the discussion and while the slow section is a problem i seriously doubt anyone who isn't skilled enough to read AR 10 on slow songs would pass up to that point; as it is right now the 280 1/2 jump spam is borderline unreadable with 9.7

Long chat with Broccoly about AR 9.7 vs AR 10. Please give it a read if you get the chance, it really fleshes out all my thoughts on the AR

23:15 Monstrata: aaaah i dropped my original intentions long ago x___x
23:16 Broccoly: oh.,,,
23:16 Monstrata: AR 9.7 is already playable imo so increasing to AR 10 is a matter of visuals (screen density)
23:17 Broccoly: but theres a lot of difference between 9.7 and 10..
23:17 Broccoly: at this bpm..
23:17 Monstrata: its why i said visuals > playability. i don't mean im sacrificing playability for visuals tho, just, when both are considered playable, 9.7 brings more visual appeal for me
23:18 Broccoly: i see
23:18 Broccoly: but why do you think is 9.7 is playable enough??
23:18 Monstrata: the difference is a bit less than 1/4th a beat (45 ms) which wasn't a lot after getting a lot of testplays
23:18 Broccoly: to me even 10 is low,,
23:19 Monstrata: ehh i think thats cuz you're just just really used to playing with dt mod though
23:19 Broccoly: well i fc'd jumpudding with ez mode so i could say i'm pretty used to low ar
23:20 Monstrata: mmm well, but you can read high AR's like over 10 so it kinda makes you a bit biased to higher AR's too no? xD. since you'd consider a higher range of AR's as "normal"
23:21 Monstrata: whereas someone who can barely read 10.3 would consider something like 9.7-10 as a good AR range
23:22 Broccoly: hmm
23:23 Broccoly: few things here.. someone who can barely read 10.3 is not your target audience
23:24 Broccoly: also i have no idea on that bias thing cuz i don't mind playing lower ars
23:24 Broccoly: and what's the difference between 270 nomod map and a 180 dt map?
23:25 Broccoly: that you need to use lower ar on the nomod map
23:25 Monstrata: well, theres also mmm more technical but with AR 9.7 you get to see the object on screen for 495 ms. and basically the rhythm of the map gives 482 ms per 5 notes (two white tticks) so at AR 9.7 there will always be 5 objects on the screen. whereas AR 10 bedomes 450ms, and the rhythm shifts down 1/4 a beat and becomes 429ms which results in less than 5 objects on the screen
23:26 Monstrata: and to a certain extent i do want the screen to be slightly more cluttered to aid with the aesthetic. timing wise, the difference is only 45 ms, but effect wise, its the difference between 4 and 5 objects on the screen
23:27 Broccoly: i see
23:29 Monstrata: also, i think with 180 dt maps you don't really get a choice as to what AR you want to pick. and I guess everyone just got used to 180 bpm DT = AR 10.33
23:30 Broccoly: ok
23:30 Monstrata: like, i think if people had the choice to assign AR's for DT/HT etc... 8 years ago or whatever, instead of a preset multiplier, things might be different today. we're just forced to go into 10.33 AR because of tradition, not because mappers agree on it
23:31 Broccoly: right
23:33 Broccoly: so for the former problem I think that that 1 object matters a lot in this case.. and I'd say you've achieved your visual representation of the music already with the patterning of the objects, etc
23:35 Broccoly: and that tradition thing, that's a good point... but now that players have already been used to 10.3, why not just make them play what they're used to?
23:36 Broccoly: they're gonna have a difficult time anyways.. why make them suffer more lol
23:37 Monstrata: mmm
23:37 Monstrata: well. cuz i think the playerbase can be more than just ppl who can play 180 dt
23:38 Monstrata: like, i would play this map for fun, but the AR 10 would turn me off cuz i can't read it and neither can a lot of people
23:38 Monstrata: well, less and less, nowadays but
23:38 Broccoly: oh i see
23:40 Broccoly: so you think it's worth sacrificing the playerbase who are used to >10 AR for the playerbase that can't read AR 10?
23:41 Broccoly: i mean, if that's what you wanna go for I can't stop you but to me it doesn't seem worth it..
23:41 Monstrata: yes. unless i'm wrong in thinking that people who can read AR 10 can't read 9.7
23:41 Monstrata: and I think its sacrificing it for the playerbase that just isnt comfortable with AR 10
23:41 Broccoly: ah okay
23:41 Monstrata: maybe they can read, they just prefer a lower AR
23:42 Monstrata: like, to a certain extent i want people to play the map and laugh at how ludicrous it is too lol
23:42 Monstrata: and then get to the middle where it shifts from 280 to 120
23:42 Broccoly: haha
23:43 Monstrata: so yea in a sense. i'm not really mapping this primarily for top 50 etc... to pass/fc. its more for ppl to have fun and laugh at/with the map.
23:44 Broccoly: well that's cool then,, but you'll have to prepare for a lot of shitstorm and salt tornados from so many people lmao..
23:45 Monstrata: o yea
23:45 Monstrata: already went through like 10 pages of that xD
23:45 Monstrata: and what, 5 reddit threads? xD
23:45 Broccoly: oh damn LOL
23:45 Broccoly: didnt know
23:45 Monstrata: if HW survived this for a whole year, i can too xD
23:46 Broccoly: wel l you do you man,,
23:46 Broccoly: gud luckk
23:46 Monstrata: oh
23:46 Monstrata: would you mind if i saved this chat log?
23:46 Broccoly: not at all, go ahead

- OD is subjective but honestly it should probably be OD 10 since notelocking might be a huge issue here like it was in apparition Apparition didnt require OD 10 but it was used mainly because of stream. There are barely any 1/4 patterns on this map, so the notelocking excuse isn't relevant here.
- HP 3 seems kind of pointless for a map this difficult tbh, bump it up to 4 or 5 Sure, HP 4.5 HP 3 was originally so the triplets could be more forgiving, but now that i've replaced them i can do a higher HP and not feel bad.
- preview point on the slowest part of the song why? didn't louis cyphre's anthem map get unranked for something like this? This is the entire point of the map lol. 8.5 stars, and it sounds like its 2 stars. It's all about juxtaposition. Pretty Ugly.

ok actual suggestions now
00:03:501 (1,1) - why are these spinners so LOUD holy Reduced to 35% and soft sample
00:51:668 (5) - nc? No, not necessary since the pattern is in a set of 8 not two sets of 4.
00:55:144 (5) - ^ ^
00:56:007 (3) - idk if you forgot a nc here but you did it for the previous section so doesn't really make sense to not have one here imo; this goes for most of the jumps like this in this section Huh? This is consistent with everything I have. Which section are you referring to?
00:58:578 (5) - ^ as per 00:51:668 ^
01:01:151 (3,4,5,6) - this jump is like huge as hell compared to the rest of the fairly short-spaced quick hops, ideally if you wanted to keep this i think spacing out 00:59:444 (3,4,5,6) - and 01:00:294 (3,4,5,6) - a tiny bit more would help Good point. I spaced out the second one more. So you have an increasing spacing concept here.
01:02:008 (5) - ^ as per 00:51:668
01:06:090 (1) - i don't really see a point to not mapping the part in this spinner (the drums, mainly), it feels really out of place as it stands Spinner fits a lot better imo. It's basically a growl + drum roll
01:10:902 (1) - ^
01:15:702 (1) - ^
01:35:915 (4) - shouldn't the slider start here for the guitar riff? it's what you did in all the previous sections so it doesn't really fit going for the vocals here Going for vocals. the rhythms from the previous two measures (all following vocals) support this.
01:37:201 (1,2,3,4,5) - why does this follow a different rhythm than 01:36:772 (5,6,7,8) - and the one before it even though it's literally the same thing The vocal rhythm is different here. But idk if this was pre or post upload. If it was pre, I fixed it and got rid of the overmap and changed the rhythm. If its post, then yea, vocal rhythm is different.
01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - how does this call for a jump stream??? nothing in the rhythm suggests a huge change in intensity.. I think it's well supported in the song, and the player should see these 1/4's coming based on the rhythms of the previous few measures.
02:18:402 (3,4,5) - this sounds off timed if you're following the vocals here, the last note especially Instruments are better, so whenever I can, i will follow the instruments. here it just happens that the vocals and the instruments use the same rhythm, though obviously the vocals are off. Applies to the ones below, i've checked them all.
02:19:370 (3,4,5) - ^
02:20:338 (3) - this just hits too early in general
02:26:362 (1) - this is like the best time to put a kiai but you don't wh
02:30:599 (9) - nc to maintain nc consistency with this section No, this is different. The NC's here are placed based on movement and flow, and not rhythm. Since its one consistent updown or leftright movement it has one combo, where as the previous ones can be split into two sets of flows/movements with backforth going into clockwise/counterclock.
02:32:313 (9) - ^ ^
02:33:171 (1) - also don't see a need for this to have a big gap from the stream, feels really out of place I think it fits pretty well with the super slow slider facing the other direction. It creates a flowbreak that helps the player be more aware of the drastic SV change.
02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2) - these should not nearly be as spaced as they are currently imo, if someone puts jumps like this at least make the player lead into them properly with gradually expanding jumps--these just come out of nowhere The wavy repeat slider is there precisely so the player has to keep moving up and down and keeping their momentum going. You'll see that the wavy slider is about 0.75 times the distance of those jumps so you have some muscle memory going into it too.

i'm not modding the slow part of the song since i'm fairly certain that's good enough as it is and i'm horrible at modding stuff like that
03:04:570 (4) - nc this tho This doesn't need an NC, its part of the previous stanza.

honestly, i really don't care too much about the uglyness of the sliders or jumps (to be honest this is basically how i map a majority of my jumps anyways). it's just a lot of the map seems mapped too much for difficulty spikes as it is right now. there's extremely easy (comparatively speaking) jump sections then out of nowhere a huge jump comes. that's really the only issue i see here. i'd much rather there be consistent jump spacing or gradual ramping of the difficulty of the jumps rather than just one random burst of across-the-screen jumps. timing also is an issue in some places (it's kind of similar to tengaku with the insane amount of timing changes, in that sense), so i'd get someone to double check that if you haven't already. obviously it can't be perfect but it can definitely be a lot better in some places.

ok that's my mod bye

sdafsf wrote:

i guess m4m is closed now...

00:44:770 (5,6) - map this guitar consistently during one section in this section you used 3 different patterns Fair enough, changed to something else
01:37:201 (1,2,3) - why low spacing here when it was higher on the 2 before? Hmm yea true. Fixed.
01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4,1) - i can hear the drums on the stream jumps but this is overmapped as fuck. i i cant hear the 1/4 in the first place but if you put it here make the stream rather like this instead of a jump No, i prefer how it is atm. See fieryrage mod reply for more info
02:32:742 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,1) - dont see anything that justifies the jump here. the sudden low sv should be enough to make the flow drop ^
02:53:686 (1) - why not map the drums here? the slider right now is ridiculous and doesnt even fit because of the 1/1 drums imo It's 1/2... and see fieryrage mod reply
02:53:686 (1) - beautiful pattern but the spacing is just overmapped its not that intense... you probably wanted a difficulty spike at the end of the hard part but thats just unfitting ^

really not sure about the inconsistency of slider shapes but i guess thats your theme for this map... still some part overmapped even for this theme
i know m4m is closed but i would be very grate ful if youd still mod my map T_T https://osu.ppy.sh/s/465788
btw change title of your m4m queue took me a while to realize its closed

Broccoly wrote:

Monstrata wrote:

My reasoning is more visuals than playability.

Osu! is a rhythm game and not Visual Art.

Shiirn wrote:

A map that is intentionally bad is still, in the end, bad. That's the biggest reason I personally disagree with this map as it sits right now. It's an intentional affront to the opinions of dozens and possibly hundreds of community members. All of the problems combine to just make this clearly a map set out with a specific message. One that is offensive and arrogant.

estellia- wrote:

I'm basically agreeing with Ekoro, Warpyc, Jaitonat, Kiyohime, Broccoly and Kuki (sorry if I missed out some names) as of now.

Lagel wrote:

TLDR:

estellia- wrote:

I'm basically agreeing with Ekoro, Warpyc, Jaitonat, Kiyohime, Broccoly and Kuki (sorry if I missed out some names) as of now.

estellia- wrote:

so many shit arguments in this thread

its 0502 in the morning

have this beauty of a remap

Kibbleru wrote:

any1 experienced enough to play this will be able to play the slow parts fine with ar10 anyways

Shiirn wrote:

I'll repeat what I said briefly.


A map that is intentionally bad is still, in the end, bad. That's the biggest reason I personally disagree with this map as it sits right now. It's an intentional affront to the opinions of dozens and possibly hundreds of community members.

Each individual, particular issue the map has - the intentionally messy aesthetics, the incongruity of the map's focus on vocals, drums, or guitar, the blatant fake difficulty - are individually whatever. Each has reasons that can stand up on their own, even if they stand up like a drunken two year old. But all of the problems combine to just make this clearly a map set out with a specific message. One that is offensive and arrogant.

1. The music sounds pretty rushed.
2. it's consistently done

1. Does the mapping fit the song?
2. Is the song consistently represented?

Cherry Blossom wrote:

Everything has been said, Thank you estellia-

1. AR 9.7 > AR 10 is being reconsidered, I will discuss with the BN's (if i find any) who will push this forward.
2. All 1/4 triplets in the intro (00:17:766 - ) and 01:22:624 - have been replaced with 1/3 repeats. Some patterns have also been altered to give lower spacing to these repeats.
3. 00:59:022 - Removed the entire jump section, and used a more consistent rhythm with what was given earlier. The spacing does increase, but I believe that's fair since I want to create a rise in intensity.
4. 01:01:580 (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8) - Reduced spacing a bit, and made the pattern more structurally sound so when people see it they have a better spatial perception of it.
5. 01:37:469 - The overmap here has been removed.
6. 01:41:058 (1,2,3,4,1,2,3,4) - Nerfed the spacing, improved the flow and entry angle into the stream. Also made the quads more structured.
7. 02:33:117 (8,1) - The streamjump here has been nerfed.
8. 02:55:471 (1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1) - Decided to nerf the spacing here. Even Hollow Wings said it was too much. That's when you know you've gone too far.

estellia- wrote:

i think you guys liked this map (its fucking hilarious) maybe i'll throw my 2 cents out here

00:27:409 (1,1) - This is clearly not Monstrata-esque flow. The unintuitive-ness of this flow is very disconcerting This plays just fine. As an authority of Monstrata-esque flows, I must disagree.
00:28:496 (3,4,1,2,3,4) - ^ Flows just fine for me.
00:43:473 (1,2,3,4,5,6) - ^ I think your complaint might be the shape of 00:44:016 (5) - so I've changed that to iron out any awkwardness with this entry angle.
00:45:520 (2,3,4,1) - ^ I don't see anything wrong here. The angles are sharper than usual, but this is just inward flow.
00:49:949 (1,2,3,4,1) - ^ Simple zigzag flow. I use this a lot in my regular maps, I think if the arrangement were nicer you would have considered it perfectly fine.
00:56:864 (3,4,5,6) - ^ This one's intentional. All of my flow selection so far has been either back/forth or rotation, all using sharp angles. I wanted to use an obtuse angle here for some variety. If its too much, this is an easy change anyways.
01:43:942 (1,2,3) - ^ Perfectly normal flow. Don't let the slider-shape trick you into thinking 2>3 is poor flow. Remember that players will be very keen on cutting corners and abusing slider-leniency on this map, especially since every slider is mangled. While it bends rightwards into a hook, you will play the slider by moving leftward smoothly.
02:04:611 (3,4,1) - ^ Flow's perfectly fine here too. The arrangement here is actually something you can find in my Hikouki Gumo map.
02:11:659 (2,3,4) - ^ Same as earlier. Don't let the slider-shape misguide you on how the pattern will flow. This is perfectly fine.
02:17:227 (2,1,2,3,4) - ^ I don't even know what to say here. The others I can see your misconceptions, but here its just a jump pattern. It's even a perfect pentagon with consistent 36 degree jumps.

00:34:933 (1,2) - I find this very hard to land because of the fact that you're mapping to absolutely nothing here. Especially with the vocal emphasis right after that you're obviously mapping to, I'd rather you time to the vocals instead of whatever you were trying to map to Buzz sound. It's a good transition from the 1/4 repeats at 00:34:474 (5) - as those aren't mapping to vocals either (as there aren't any). I adjusted the timing here though, thanks!
00:40:066 (1,2,3) - This triplet is CLEARLY an overmap, there was nothing that justified the triplet This is necessary because there needs to be a 1/2 of a beat where the player is forced to pause their movement. Nothing else will work. Making 00:39:852 (6) - a repeat is awkward. Creating a 1/1 gap is also going to cause reading issues due to 1/1 looking like 1/2. Why is a pause necessary? Because the vocal begins on the red tick where you are expecting it to begin immediately on the white tick. Triplets also create a flow reset which help transition from the structured and geometric movements of the earler section to a chaotic jump pattern after. I already touched about this in fieryrage's mod reply. Also I don't think this is a clear overmap because of te guitar's ambiguity. Like i said, I believe the guitarist actually intended to play 1/4's here, but couldn't keep up with 280 bpm triplets himself.
01:02:466 (1) - A pretty big number of slow sliders here are CLEARLY not timed well, or I just have absolutely no idea what you were mapping to: guitar or vocal, because it seems like there is dissonant emphasis in this whole region Going for the bass here, not guitar or vocals. Tey just all happen to align, and all happen to have different offsets. I made some minor changes to two red lines (-5ms) though.
01:24:363 (1,2) - Consistency for rhythm similar to 00:21:206 (1,2) - , there was no vocal at 01:24:363 (1) - , which was kinda indicated to me before that it doesn't warrant a 1/2 slider Hmm... I think both are fine. You can argue consistency if you want, but I think both rhythm choices are acceptable, and the time in between is far too great for anyone to notice them while playing. It's an easy change anyways, so i'll just prepare a fix.
01:35:594 (2,3,4,5) - The focus in vocal right before (and right after btw) suddenly shifts to drum mapping, it makes no sense to me, just retime it or something Sorry if it makes no sense to you .

I'm trying to be objective about it because somehow this is the best kind of flow/rhythm Monstrata can pull out his ass.

If the focus on every map is only about playability we might as well just not bother with nazi mods anymore, because every UGLY thing despite having mildly acceptable flow can be refuted with "oh its just my a e s t h e t i c". While most people will stop bothering with mappers who map to their aesthetic ideals, somehow its not the case with Monstrata SOLELY because he's popular.

Just to piss people off even more: L o .x dd

ko im done hre re xd

VINXIS wrote:

can i mak le big estelia styl post

estellia- wrote:

VINXIS wrote:

can i mak le big estelia styl post

tbh just copy my post and put it into English -> Vinglish translator xddd\

Monstrata more like monstrocity ffs