Elementaires wrote:
#ETProblems
Elementaires wrote:
#ETProblems
Riince wrote:
on standard too? because some of your maps seem like theyd still be pretty borderline impossible on halftime cough cough shut down everythingAqo wrote:
I just playtest my maps with halftime, the patterns play exactly the same and you can judge whether it plays well without being good enough to play it at its normal speed :v
#rankhardandfunmaps2015scarykidrow wrote:
Elementaires wrote:
#ETProblems
good to knowscarykidrow wrote:
This is osumania, not osu standard
osu!std also got ET maps, they are equal and not ranked tooscarykidrow wrote:
This is osumania, not osu standard
hear sound --> 5 notesExPew wrote:
#ETmainproblemtogetrank
Tear wrote:
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
That's just how it is though. If we had all the maps ranked that others enjoy, then we'd just have a huge mess full of random shitmaps like that disconnected #blamejonimay in the ranked area. It is good for what it is, being a hard map that's completely overmapped and fun to some people. But now what? Just because a map is fun, doesnt mean that it is a rankable map. Ghostnotes, parts that are unneccessarily (is that a word?) difficult, etc (insert unrankable issue here).Drace wrote:
Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.
Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
lold badly about thisDrace wrote:
Tear wrote:
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
This and close this topic lol.Bobbias wrote:
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.Tidek wrote:
And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Honestly there simply isn't way to accomplish what the people in this thread are asking for with the current ranking system. Everything is wrong with it. It's a system that encourages biases and gives power to the wrong people. It gives attention to the wrong maps and the system encourages pointless mods which has destroyed more maps than it helped.Tristan97 wrote:
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:
[...]
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.Drace wrote:
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.Tidek wrote:
And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
And does that mean you disagree with this?If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me
And does that mean you disagree with this?Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Bobbias wrote:
Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
[/quote]Bobbias wrote:
Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either..
ExUsagi wrote:
with worst quality & un-play-ability
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.Drace wrote:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.Drace wrote:
A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572
Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated". So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.Tristan97 wrote:
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
AdamMZ wrote:
You know what's the best solution for this.
Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
HeheBobbias wrote:
AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.Tidek wrote:
I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.Tidek wrote:
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?Tidek wrote:
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.Tidek wrote:
1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
Tidek wrote:
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
Drace wrote:
Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.Drace wrote:
There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Mapping over a song of your choice.Entozer wrote:
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.Entozer wrote:
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.Drace wrote:
My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
...I didn't say anything about overmapping in that quote?Tidek wrote:
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.Drace wrote:
My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
I know some people who took a lot more than one month to get a map ranked. This depends on the mapper, it's not because you are too lazy to get a map that has a lot of difficulty / has a very high bpm or is longer than average / any other reason that every other mapper is like you and does not have the courage to do it. You are not the only guy in the universe, everybody is different. Do you even understand the concept of not being the center of the universe?Tidek wrote:
1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
Sooo do you mean that nobody is able to get better at playing, mapping or modding? Would it take too long to improve that much? So maybe in one year or so, the community will be able to do all of them better, so ET maps will be able to get ranked? That's just stupid. Of course there are people who can map or mod very well anyway. I suggest you to read my first paragraph and add the notions of playing and modding to mapping, or any other thing, related or not to the game. You will learn a lot about humanity.Tidek wrote:
2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
1. If your point is valid, then it should apply to other game modes as well. I'm gonna take an example with a mainstream and hard map so it makes more sense to you.Tidek wrote:
3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
I feel offended.AdamMZ wrote:
(I don't see you guys mapping)
More like all the queues going TEEVEE SAIZU ONLI hehTidek wrote:
Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).
Tidek wrote:
I was never complaining abouth them
I'm sowwy. :c-Kamikaze- wrote:
I feel offended.AdamMZ wrote:
(I don't see you guys mapping)
I agree with this.Envisionise wrote:
Mapping is a form of art, a platform for creativity. Therefore, 'overmapping' doesn't exist in a place like here. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is your personal response to someone elses art. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is perfectly fine, but no map is actually overmapped. It does not mean that the work is invalid and is low in quality.
When you play someone's chart, you are playing the mapper's interpretation of the song. You are living and breathing their art. If you feel that chart is overmapped, that is your personal opinion of the chart. It does not mean that it's wrong, there is no such thing as wrong in art.
Someone else could play that chart and believe that it's a fun, high quality map.
I believe ranked maps are maps that are fun to play and are of at least decent quality. If a map targeted for ET players satisfies that criteria, why can't it be ranked? The chart is simply targeting a different audience, though a smaller one. Whether 99% of the community cannot appreciate the map, that 1% still finds the map fun and that map should satisfy the criteria of being ranked. Personally, I find MANY ranked maps aren't fun for me. Am i going out to bitch about it? Nope. I can appreciate the fact that others find it fun and I'm totally fine with that.
I'm not sure why ET maps aren't ranked. If the BAT's find charts low in quality or 'overmapped', they should listen to the players whom the map was targeted at. The experience range of the BATs isn't wide enough to speak for the entire community. In such a community driven game, I think this is a huge fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed.
plz rank et maps plz
To be completely fair, for me, every map with the hardest difficulty less than about 4 stars is so easy I won't play it more than maybe once or twice (unless I absolutely love the song). If a map is too easy, it's just like if it was too hard. Sure, I can play it, but it's no fun, just like nofailing on something way too hard would be for most players. The ranking criteria is supposed to deal with this issue by ensuring that there are both easy difficulties and harder difficulties... Unfortunately the rule is currently biased towards easy maps.kidlat020 wrote:
but personally, I'd be losing my own songs that I could play.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Osu!mania_Ranking_Criteria Where?Bobbias wrote:
Unfortunately the rule is currently biased towards easy maps.
The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty. This is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love.So, you can add a Hard/Insane mania difficulty to a standard map, but if you make a standalone mania map, you must follow the first part of that section, meaning you must have one difficulty at or below 2.0 stars and a second difficulty that isn't too much harder. This means that if you want a map with easy difficulties, you only need 2, if you have something with harder difficulties, you may need 3 or 4 difficulties to satisfy this rule. That biases it towards easier maps.
The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BATs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
You know that most of the top players play using a keyboard, right?kidlat020 wrote:
Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.
It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.
perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.
(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
do you even have a IIDX controllerkidlat020 wrote:
jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
:Okidlat020 wrote:
Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.
It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.
perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.
(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
I was in the middle of writing a long post in reply to this but I couldn't be bothered. That's just.. wrong lol, don't be convinced if it's not even true.kidlat020 wrote:
Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.
It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.
perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.
(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
magicrichardfeder wrote:
wtf is this sensitive IR fc
You should spend your time playing the game instead of cooking up ridiculous theories.kidlat020 wrote:
Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.
It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.
perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.
(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
If the purpose of using an iidx controller is just for jacks, in which not all ET maps consist of, I'm sticking with my keyboardkidlat020 wrote:
as I said, jackhammers. when a column is jackhammer you can at least use two fingers instead of one.
in theory at least.
all that's left isgrindingpracticing with IIDX controller.
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe someone should put together a mod queue just for ET diffs? Although this would only work if you could find a few people who are willing, and can actually mod ET maps properly...-Kamikaze- wrote:
Noice sig you've got there m8
tbh, getting back on topic won't do anything. Instead of arguing/posting here we should be making this hard stuff and/or modding it. That'll help the cause