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Topic Starter
scarykidrow

Elementaires wrote:

#ETProblems
Topic Starter
scarykidrow

Riince wrote:

Aqo wrote:

I just playtest my maps with halftime, the patterns play exactly the same and you can judge whether it plays well without being good enough to play it at its normal speed :v
on standard too? because some of your maps seem like theyd still be pretty borderline impossible on halftime cough cough shut down everything

This is osumania, not osu standard
Tidek
Then make it yourself and rank it if you think that making good quality ET maps isnt a problem.

Unfortunately, most of good mappers who can actually make pretty good 6-7* (8*+ maps are pretty impossible for 90% players from top100 unless it has easy symmetry patterns, because star rating looks only on density), dont care about ranking process.
JamesHappy

scarykidrow wrote:

Elementaires wrote:

#ETProblems
#rankhardandfunmaps2015

Even though i'm still a Novice player. ;w;
Vuelo Eluko

scarykidrow wrote:

This is osumania, not osu standard
good to know
ExPew
so you want ET maps like o2jam private server most are ETchart? (based lv on 75+ = (8star)) ''just point to 7K''

NO!!

ET maps also need to care quality based on instrument. don't make fkin overmap

scarykidrow wrote:

This is osumania, not osu standard
osu!std also got ET maps, they are equal and not ranked too

#ETmainproblemtogetrank
Ayachi-

ExPew wrote:

#ETmainproblemtogetrank
hear sound --> 5 notes
1/16
shionelove
my opinions
1,ET map is not always overmap.
you can choose the song has many instruments,sounds.
then you can make ET map.

2,it's ok to make challenge map for player
do you know "For Ultraplayers"?
in SDVX,it was made to kill pro SDVX player lol
and many players love this.
challenge is also good.

anyway,i love calm song,i make easy map always,so it meets easy maps.
more high quality ET map please
Spy
People focus on ET maps and skipped quality.
When your ET maps have quality,we will agree to rank.

Why even less ranked maps recently ?
You must think about the reason.
Bobbias
O2Jam has way too many bad ET charts. Now, I think that's mostly because the majority of O2Jam players now are ET, and only care about having more ET maps to play.

ExPew, I don't think overmapping is always bad. Some overmapping is fun, and plays good. Not all. But some. Overmapping IS rankable: t/125409/
shionelove
how to judge good or bad
Tear
Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
Kamikaze
Some maps just represent same sound with more notes (like 3 notes for one sound instead of 1 note) and I think it's okay
As long as map is not very overmapped and/or doesn't have ghost notes every 1/1 it should be okay to rank
Also @Tear, pepole want some challenge in maps, or they just get bored and go to other games
Yauxo
Guys, the thing with this is, as other people pointed out already, that these maps either lack in quality and that pretty much no one can point these errors out.
For my part, I dont know shit about mania mapping or playing, but Iam sure that 11 star maps (such as the kakuzetsu) are pretty much overmapped. Like, wtf is >this< supposed to be. It basically looks like >this< to me, if one would compere it to std. Random shit scattered across the map. It's possible to hit, but Iam sure you wont, unless you play this map many many times.
Who is supposed to give these maps a proper check if even 50% speed would confuse the hell out of them. Things get unranked for being too difficult on one part (-> Jenny's FLOWER for example), even though they look good and playable, so how are these extra difficult mania maps supposed to pass the test?

If you want to play overmapped and bad-quality maps, go ahead and map your own, play unrankeds or go to another mania game.
Why dont you guys try to get into modding yourselves? None of these will ever see the light of the ranked section, unless you find a way to properly mod these diffs.
Kamikaze
I want to play harder maps and I DO mod them if I have a chance to do so. I also try to map tem decently. That doesn't really change a thing tho.
Also I don't think anyone wants 11 star maps ranked because they're obviously retardedly hard. This topic is more about maps of difficulty similar/slightly harder then current top rated maps such as Thunderbolt or IN2k6, and there are good quality maps that could be ranked (like Chaosmaid, which even appeared in MWC Finals), which do have a full spread, but they don't get attention they need and slowly die
Drace

Tear wrote:

Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
I'd kindly recommend playing an instrument if your main concern is being able to play music. This is a rhythm game, not an instrument simulator.

Are you implying high density maps aren't "good" simply because you can't tell what specific sound every single note is representing? If that's the case I'd like to remind you that your criterias as to what makes a good map are heavily biased by your own skill and your previous exposures.

Skill
This is a game first and foremost. You should be having fun when playing a game, that much is elementary. And as people get better it's only normal that harder maps become their standard. New players will look at the maps that you currently think are awesome and perfect and all they'll see is simply how much more dense and difficult they are compared to what they play, the exact same thing you're currently seeing on maps above your own level. People on the overjoy scales and triple digit o2jam have fun and hold their own opinions as to what makes a good map at those levels. And surprise surprise, you'll find their criterias to be completely different.

Exposure
Did anyone notice how the majority of the LR2 community believes over half the maps here are complete shit and o2jam is nothing but a joke? Of course they're not right, but they're also not completely wrong. They've been exposed to a certain type of charting and have grown attached to it. The foreign o2jam'esque style mania has picked up (LNs and SVs galore) is simply not amusing to them because what they look for in a chart is simply not present. Since LR2 has the bigger community, is it then safe to generalize mania's map pool as bad? Absolutely not. The same thing is also happening the other way around. A large majority of this playerbase that tries the bms converts labels them as "Bullshit Mania Spam" (lol)

What is mapping anyways?
Personally, I like to think of mapping or charting as a form of art. There's nothing wrong with doing anything in your creation, the only consequences is the more obscure creations will yield less affection. Usually, in the world of arts, it's the people that created something special to express themselves that makes something exceptional, and less the ones that makes something within the boundaries of a set of rules and standards to impress others.

Where am I going with this?
This "quality" everyone is talking about is completely subjective in this field where everyone finds different things "fun". If people had fun playing it, even if it's only a few, the map has every right to be considered a product of quality no matter how bad, unpolished or ridiculous you might believe it is. Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.

Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
Kamikaze
Thank You Based Drace
Yauxo

Drace wrote:

Why? For the simple reason that the map accomplished it's main purpose, to be played and enjoyed by others. Trying to set general standards as to what makes a map good or not is completely ridiculous.

Telling mappers they aren't allowed to do something in their maps because "some" people don't like it is like telling an artist he's not allowed to use a certain colour because "some" people don't like it. Expand your horizons people.
That's just how it is though. If we had all the maps ranked that others enjoy, then we'd just have a huge mess full of random shitmaps like that disconnected #blamejonimay in the ranked area. It is good for what it is, being a hard map that's completely overmapped and fun to some people. But now what? Just because a map is fun, doesnt mean that it is a rankable map. Ghostnotes, parts that are unneccessarily (is that a word?) difficult, etc (insert unrankable issue here).

I think that you can partially compare it to the process of gamedevelopment.

Simple: When something's released to the public, the dev want the game to be as polished and as bugfree as it can get so that everyone can enjoy it.

Rather specific example/comparison
Imagine the devs of Ocarina of Time knew about the Infinite Sword Glitch or the Wrong Warp. The glitches themselves are fun to play with, since they breaks the game here and there. This opens up new possibilities for the player to have fun with the game. Cool. But this isnt what they want to have in their official release for the game. They want it playable for any player that just want to hop in and enjoy a bugfree game.
Then, more hardcore gamer found this (the bugs, glitches) and now have their fun with it, they speedrun and enjoy the game this way. The unintended way.

Now, compare this to the ranking process.
The map is damn difficult with maybe fun, but unrankable patterns (-> Bugs/Glitches). The hardcore gamers (-> high ranks) can enjoy it the more difficult/"unintended" way (-> unmodded and unranked diff) while the casuals can enjoy the "normal" game (-> modded and ranked diff)

Also, just because these maps cant get ranked yet, doesnt mean that you shouldnt map them. I cant see anything that keeps you from mapping these diffs. If you find people that like to play your map - cool, you got what you wanted.
There are many mappers that like to map extra difficult maps only. People like CRN, RLC, galv (etc, these were the first names that came to my mind) and others have huge lists of unranked beatmaps - and people like them.
Drace
Your analogy would be correct if it weren't for two crucial things.

First off, this is a community driven game that's always evolving. Not a corporate game with a single and final release. The community can please themselves much better than the higher ups ever can, this is why people enjoy these kinds of games. A game like this is always about it's future, while a game like the Zelda series has no future other than waiting for it sequels.

Second, the people in charge are claiming they're limiting their ranking to "quality". But like i tried to show in my previous post, that matter is entirely subjective. Their ideas as to what constitute to a map's quality is FAR from the majority, it's only their own opinion. Mania's actually a big minority in the realm of VSRGs, and even within the community we see debates like this very thread with people not satisfied with the current map pool. It's also worth mentioning that this is only place where such unsatisfactions are taken to this extreme.

So can you really say that the map pool is of "quality" material when we keep seeing people whining about it? And that's what I lead to in my previous post; a map's true quality is how fun it is to play to the people of that skill level and general exposure. Not if it followed a certain set of arbitrary rules and requirements. I'm sure everyone here can think of maps that despite being made "like the higher ups wanted", were completely unmemorable, devoid of personality, and generally not fun to play.

tl;dr, If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then overmapping was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".

Expand your horizons, variety is a great thing.
Kamikaze
Also modding process exists so those "overmapped" maps can be as good and polished as possible.
Bobbias
Drace is absolutely 100% correct. Mapping is a form of creative expression much the same as any other. Everyone has their own perception of 'quality'.

I look at ranking as a way to accept or endorse a map. I look at it as a way for the community to say "here are maps that we think are worth your time to play". The problem here is that what gets ranked ends up being maps that try to please as many people as possible without trying to do anything new or interesting. Sure, they're playable, and at least not awful, but it's like comparing pop music to jazz. Regardless of whether or not you understand what's happening musically in jazz, you can't deny that there's more creativity in jazz than pop music. Music has lots of 'rules' too, and what does jazz do? It ignores most of those rules. Sometimes it ends up sounding bad to a lot of people. I'm sure not everyone likes Naked City, but John Zorn, the saxaphonist and songwriter of this stuff is a well respected jazz artist anyway, and still gets to sell his music and tour. Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
ikzune
really that many people hate on those bms converts o.o? but yeah i agree personally that overmapping is good to a degree, it can make the map more enjoyable if its based on the feel of the map rather then the individual notes at higher levels unless you want to be playing purely speedcore to rank eventually... the important thing is that general people at that level and in that area of gameplay say lr2 vs o2jam style mapping find the song fun to play and find that the timing of the notes are done to a point where the map is comfortably playable. there is a degree of discomfort that i would allow, some songs that specifically target stamina from stepmania for example

although this may make modders and people who make maps ranked more difficult, it would definitely improve the games ranking system
Stefan

Drace wrote:

Tear wrote:

Mania is not for smashing your keyboard, it's for playing the music. In a good map I can tell what sound each object is supposed to represent and that's impossible at that difficulty, there's just too much clutter. Above 5-6 stars maps only represent the energy and flow of the music, which makes the mode devolve into osu!standard.
I'd kindly recommend playing an instrument if your main concern is being able to play music. This is a rhythm game, not an instrument simulator.
lold badly about this
Tristan97
Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

Agreeing to the subjectivity of 'quality' of mapping based on groups or divisions of the VSRG masses, what is the best way to map ExTra for mania?

I personally find lZenxl's style to be a capable way of mapping that can lead to more difficult ranked beatmaps, especially since PROGUY deemed his Diatonicism difficulty for Achromat rankable (with some modding).

We can rank challenging beatmaps, and often the border of 'overmapping' can be pushed to an extent with the target group in mind. Not ridiculously, or M.A.M.A.'s Extra difficulty would be harder than IN2k6 right now.

But what constitutes as an appropriate rankable ExTra beatmap?

Entozer is very popular in the osu!mania community and he maps very high difficulty maps such as Thantos or Music Revolver, etc.

So should we be pushing to rank maps with styles similar to Entozer?

What exactly makes ET osu!mania ranked maps osu!mania styled anyway? Intersect Thunderbolt Remix and AiAe and over 5.5+ star maps are what we're looking at.

Personally, I've noticed a lot more recently as I've reached new heights of performance that I can appreciate the patterns in the maps I'm playing much more. Bangin' Burst Level 16 being a good example. So I believe the ET mania players have the best say in what we should be ranking at that difficulty, since after all, this is a community driven game.

I'd like to get challenging maps ranked myself (see Xross Infection: https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/248006)

But I'm not sure if the patterns I'm creating are 'appropriate' or if I'll get shot down by BATs considering this level is too much for me to pass.

Furthermore, it's inevitable that ranking more of these significantly challenging maps (6+ stars) will get more ET players to play osu!mania more actively, so how should we consider that in our criterion?
Bobbias
The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.

If you're going to ask about Entozer stuff, this is pretty relevant: https://osu.ppy.sh/s/235994 8.46 stars according to the page. Entozer says he can't even pass it himself thanks to the HP drain. Or how about https://osu.ppy.sh/s/178027 8.80 stars on the EX diff. Or https://osu.ppy.sh/s/156500 at 10.80. If these all had proper difficulty spreads, are these considered acceptable? I can't pass any of these, but I think they're all good maps in terms of the patterns.
Tidek

Bobbias wrote:

The best way to map mania is whatever you want. As far as I'm concerned osu!mania's identity should not be some narrow minded overly specific style like most other games have (o2jam focuses on LNs, BMS mostly has few or no LNs, etc.). Osu!Mania should accept every style, so that players from every game can find maps they enjoy. We shouldn't try to come up with a single characteristic style that every ranked map should conform to. Let the mappers map what they want.
This and close this topic lol.

The only thing I hate from complainers is that they think that BATs wont allow to rank "ET maps". Find ma a rule in ranking criteria where its saying that you cant rank harder maps. The main reasons why "ET maps" are not ranked is that quality of those maps are sh it OR creator doesnt care about ranking his map, problem solved.

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
Drace
pointless response to a pointless post

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?


Tristan97 wrote:

Okay, let me ask this since I feel like it will get a sophisticated response:

[...]
Honestly there simply isn't way to accomplish what the people in this thread are asking for with the current ranking system. Everything is wrong with it. It's a system that encourages biases and gives power to the wrong people. It gives attention to the wrong maps and the system encourages pointless mods which has destroyed more maps than it helped.

A good system shouldn't coast of the biases of the BATs and modders. They should actually have no say at all in the matter, the community can make their own decisions.
Tidek

Drace wrote:

Tidek wrote:

And one more thing, I will rather quit that game instead of playing overmapped ranked maps. Yes, Im a overmap hater and Im not gonna play imagined mapper rhythms.
For starters the guy you agreed with and the snip you quoted is "for" overmapping. You can't say "oh mappers are allowed to do w/e they want, except not overmapping though, or this, or that". Get your own opinions straight before trying to share them, they make no sense.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
If you do, and unless you have proper arguments to rest your case, you're nothing but a fool for not realizing that different people enjoys different things. You can clearly see the majority here are for overmapping, denying other people of the content they'd enjoy makes you nothing short of a d!ck.

You can't say it's wrong simply because you don't like it. Many hate SVs and LNs and they're still around aren't they?
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.

EDIT: Forgot about one thing, the only exception I respect is keysounded map.
Drace
I agreed with Bobbias because he was writing about mapping styles, where the hell overmap is a mapping style? I can even map to a silent music and I still can say its my mapping style? For me, no. Hey, my map is based on overmap style with 4K stepmania mapping style, lol.
I hate LN heavy maps, but I RESPECT them when they are technically okay, how I can say that overmap is technically okay when its only mapper imagination you cant deny?

I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
I understand that overmap is fun for some people because it gives more challenge for them, but dont call it as a "mapping style", for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me they are just joke/training maps.
for me

lol nice effort I guess

There's literally nothing I can reply to that since there's no argument. You can't just state something isn't a style purely because you feel like it and not say why. People can make them, people play them, people can enjoy them. Yes it can be style pure and simple, and you don't like it. And it's completely acceptable.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.

Ever heard of a delay chart? Doubt it.

And worst of all you avoided the main point of my reply to you. Should of done the same to you but meh.

And does that mean you disagree with this?

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Tidek
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.

But saying those creations don't deserve the same amount of respect as the others is where you're completely wrong. There's good and bad overmaps, I'm sure you can understand this much. We're not talking about 100% randomly added notes here, were talking about morphing patterns into something that has more notes but still follow the flow and feel of the song perfectly. Artistic creativity at it's finest.
Overmapping isnt a 100% creation, its a easy way to avoid lack of ideas for the current music. It can be less or more creative, but still the most creative is to make the same fun and enjoyable map without putting any ghost notes and that is a thing I respect the most.

Also finally you got a response for this:
If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Drace
And like I said, that's YOUR opinion. The fact of the matter here is there's a considerable amount of people in this playerbase that share the opposite opinion. Can you not think about anyone other than yourself? There is no "right" or "wrong" in a dilemma governed by subjectivity. The best you can do is accommodate to satisfy the most people.

What exactly would be wrong to rank a few maps styled a way you don't like for the sake of satisfying a larger audience? You're giving off an extremely closed-minded vibe.

And no you didn't respond to that quote at all ^^ Goes to show you don't even understand the core of my arguments :/
Tidek
Its funny, how one sentece where I said that I hate overmaps could make that stupid conservation.

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.

Have fun with discussion in that pointless topic, administration probably wont even look at it, cya.
Tristan97
Okay, I personally agree with the idea that multiple styles should be rankable in osu!mania as a community driven game. I find it appropriate to mod maps as a way for the community to suggest more refined beatmaps, but it's also important to have diversity in a game such as this one.

Take Hesitation Snow for example. It has both an o2jam styled and a BMS styled insane difficulty. While not ET level, they represent how we can take these styles and rank them accordingly. Also, maps like Koi Saku Mirai have a more personal style that ranks as well, giving people hope in expressing their individuality.

I believe that mapping is a form of art, both technically demanding and expressive.

That being said, what is the limit for overmapping if we should be accepting of these styles? When do o2jam styled LNs become unrankable? Sister's Noise Level 42 got ranked.

When does BMS 'bullshit mania spam' become too much? Most people agree that IN2k6 should not have gotten ranked with the standards we have today for various reasons. But what's the limit?

Is it situation? Is it simply subjective?

What's the best way to improve this system?
Bobbias
Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either.

Tidek, you agreed with me and then outright said the exact opposite, shitting on overmapped stuff. I'll quote myself here:

Bobbias wrote:

Denying ranking over arbitrary criteria is like deciding you're not going to sell somebody's music because you happen to not enjoy it. Tough shit, other people do, and that's what matters.
Tristan97

Bobbias wrote:

Tristan, the main reason most people think in2k6 shouldn't have been ranked is because the lunatic is a slightly edited version of an existing BMS chart, and because the patterns are not particularly good. The difficulty doesn't really have anything to do with it. We have rules against ranking conversions (unless you have permission from the creator), and in2k6 is just too close to the original chart. Every other diff is basically just a nerfed version of the lunatic with no originality either..
[/quote]


Oh, I was aware of that. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it. Yeah it's a pain that our highest pp awarding map isn't a legitimate creation of the community.
Prim
Cuppp
My peppy bodypillow whispers to me every night that this won't happen ever








ever
AdamMZ
We need Puppetz (from Frets on Fire) to make ET songs.

@Tidek How many times do we have to tell you. OPINIONS ARE (MOST OF THE TIME) ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE. Remember that for the rest of your internet life.
Arzenvald
just wandering forum for awhile and mfw saw this.. owell..

don't mention this 'we', because i personally don't want a ranked ET beatmaps with worst quality & un-play-ability.. besides, what kind of ET map should be ranked? over 7 stars is already too much for me (because it's so DAMN hard to make a quality map over 6 stars).. and then, how many people who able to pass ET maps? and is there any mappers who want to map such maps? also is there any modders who want to mod such overloaded maps? and lastly, will BAT / QAT approves ET maps with nowadays system ranking?

well i can't even answer them, and i could say top #200 will need an 'unofficially' fun map with ET difficulty..
it could be yes or not that this community needs an ET ranked map.. but one thing in my thought.. overmapping is not how to make ET maps, and it wont be easy to rank ET map..
Drace
No, as per majority rules, "we" is the correct word to use.

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the majority of the community doesn't. It's not like you have to play them if they get ranked right? Everyone's happy.

Oh and also:

ExUsagi wrote:

with worst quality & un-play-ability

Drace wrote:

If overmapping (or similar nonsensically acclaimed "mapping taboos") makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition that did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
"Quality" is extremely subjective. Keep that in mind.
Tidek
Hehe

I know I shouldnt post here anymore, but damn me. I must

Drace wrote:

A survey was conducted to prove this matter t/190572

Also worthed noting that the examples used in the poll are excessively "over-saturated" ;). So you could say it's also the community's general opinion on overmapping.
General opinion of overmapping? That survey is bad because ppl had no choose. It was just "you want ET maps? yes or no" doesnt matter whether its overmapped or not. I voted yes because I want ET maps ranked as well, but not mapped in that way.
Better survey should look like that:
Should ET maps be allowed for ranking?

1. Yes, overmapped and "normal mapped" ones
2. Yes, but not overmapped ones
3. No

Im sure that results will be A LOT different ;)

Not saying that ET maps are not allowed to rank anyway lol
Starry-
"Overmapping" is so subjective it can't even be considered in an argument unless specified. This conversation it pointless, honestly, simply because it won't get anywhere. (Remember what happened last thread?)
Drace
For starters I said "you could consider", not "it is". Not only does it mean that the statement was hypothetical, it also means it was only but a tangent to the main argument.

And second of all the poll CLEARLY says, "ET maps like Unlimited spark, etc etc". If you didn't cast your vote correctly it's your own problem for not understanding basic English.

Everything I said so far is still non-disputed, and you along with all the others keep failing to make any proper arguments. Instead you're either claiming subjective matters or your own preferences as facts, or trying to nit-pick the minor elements in the opposing arguments. All in the hopes of achieving what? You think you managed to convince everyone we're wrong by doing so? Please, this is ridiculous.

And to make matters worst I'm positive you don't even know what we're talking about with overmapping. You're acting like it's bane of the devil worst possible shit that you can possibly do, and yet they've been everywhere and accepted since the days of canmusic. Even LR2 has ranked overmaps. There's no imaginary rhythms, they still follow the song perfectly fine, they just "saturate" the patterns. And like Tear said (oh yes you presented a point to help my arguments) you can't tell what's what in the upper levels anyways. So whats more important, how enjoyable the map is to play or if every note can be isolated to a specific sound after extensive study? I'm voting for the prior.

And here's the catch, it's not easy at all to implement overmapping in a way to make the map more enjoyable. Most the time the patterns will feel foreign and out of place. But it's very possible and some people do it quite well. This also goes without saying that many are also complete shit.

Like Starry- (amoungst many others) said, the matter is subjective. You'll need proper arguments against the points that's been presented in the thread in order for anything you say to be valid. The only thing you manage to accomplish by simply saying "overmapping is shit because I said so" is giving leverage to the opposite side of the argument, especially when they properly explained their own points.

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Kamikaze
Well, at this moment we're getting NO ranked maps or 1 max per week, but that's another story...
Tristan97
And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.

On that note, shouldn't we make a 'community check' for maps to keep things driven by us.

Have people vote if they think a difficulty for a map is too dense with a poll or something and then have that over-rule BAT (not QAT, but BAT) decision.

That way we can keep 'subjective matters' within favor of the people. Then leave it to the BAT's decision if it's too close or something.

My point being, it could be a lot easier to rank maps like 'Chaos Maid' if the beatmap thread had a poll that ET players could vote on that says 'we deem/want this map rankable/ranked.'
AdamMZ
You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.
Bobbias

Tristan97 wrote:

And so far, no one against overmapping has succeeded in presenting anything close to a proper argument to justify their case. Even most of the BATs are bathing in their own ignorant bias. "Hey everyone, these random people guys said doing that is a nono and they can't even justify their reasoning. I guess they're completely right!"
Woah there, even if you're right and trying to make a point no need to sound too cocky.
The thing is, he's right, and it's getting annoying. There has not been a single logical argument against our position. Every voice of opposition we've heard has been a statement of personal opinion with no logical explanation for why our position might be incorrect.

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
AdamMZ
You know, if these guys wants some ET maps, they should just make them for themselves.
FaL3C_ChoBo
Tidek

AdamMZ wrote:

You know what's the best solution for this.

Go find speedcore, flashcore, splittercore or extratone music and make it as ET as possible. No one's gonna complain about overmapping... and no BAT will rank it. Dangit.

Bobbias wrote:

AdamMZ: I'd rather someone overmap good music than make a shitty ET map to bad splittercore.
Hehe

But well, my point is that there is a lot of songs (and its not speedcore or other "RIP ears" music) which allow you to make 6*+ map without putting a single ghost note (AiAe is a great example) instead of making forced 6* for song which technically is possible for 4,5*.
@Drace I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u? If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.

And one more sentence about that survey, thats why I said its bad because its limited only to overmapped examples and I suggested to make proper one ;)
Drace

Tidek wrote:

I know exactly what overmap is, you dont have to teach me this, Im playing rhythm games probably more than you (11 years) and making charts for them more than you too (6 years). And some of you guys saying that overmap is a one of mapping style just makes me laugh.
[...]
If u tell me that overmapping is the same skilled like normal mapping then well, I will just laugh more.
Then I guess you're just going to have to laugh alone in your corner since you can't stop people from mapping and enjoying what they want right? Basically what you're saying is "I've been doing this for a long time so everyone that does things differently than me are wrong." Again, nothing but mere bias and no argument.

Tidek wrote:

Overmapping is ALL about making FUN TO PLAY patterns, its a VERY EASY way of mapping because you focus only on intense of music (chorus, verses etc) instead of actually rhythm and I think you should know that, dont u?
[...]
Mapper just have to know which patterns are fun to play and just put them because he isnt limited to music, that makes a mapper lazy or less skilled in mapping. In short words. Overmap = patterns > music, normal mapping: music = patterns.
This is all your personal opinion. Want to know how to tell argument from opinion apart? I can just say the exact opposite and it still makes sense.
"Overmapping is harder because otherwise all you'd have to do is place notes according to the sounds. This means the map is already done for you!"
Opinions don't get us anywhere in a debate govern by subjectivity. Once more, there is no argument here.

On a side-note, since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

-

You know, my arguments weren't limited to just overmapping. I said mappers should be allowed to do what ever they want in their maps as long as it still suits the song and makes the map more enjoyable to it's target audience. There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.

Denying such small things is the equivalent of denying the entire respective audience and a world of possibilities simply because you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Is that really your intentions here?
Tidek
Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.

Just answer me 2 simple questions, of course, it can be your opinion:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.
Drace

Tidek wrote:

Why are you trying to tell me that Im the only one with that opinion? (laughing alone in a corner) I know a lot of people who will agree with me and you know people who will agree with you.
I think that opnion from a 6 years mapper is more convincing than your opposite opinion about that overmapping is harder, I spent in editor a lot of time and making overmapped things is very easy and less skilled for a mapper.
No, I'm saying that you're one of the few who can't respect other's opinions to the point of laughing at them. And the amount of time you've been mapping does not change the available audiences out there. It doesn't not even amount to how good of a mapper you are. Some people can reach kaiden (aka S'ing overjoys) in 2-3 years and you said you've been playing for 11, give that a thought will you?

Tidek wrote:

1. Is overmap a mapping style. Yes or no.
My opinion on this, such as yours, is completely irrelevant in this matter. What does matter is the fact that a considerable amount of people do enjoy mapping and playing maps that employ some degree of overmapping. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Tidek wrote:

2. Is overmapping harder or the same hard as "normal" mapping? Yes, no, depends.

Drace wrote:

Since when is the difficulty of production a medium to measure quality? This is just my personal opinion right here, but I'd say your criteria for quality are quite superfluous.

Drace wrote:

There's not one technique that requires more skill than the other. What takes skill is to make a good map, and to make a good map you need to consider what your target audience is. It's only natural that the "best maps" for the respective audiences contain material that are questionable to members outside that audience. May it be long notes, speed changes, delay, keysounds, overmapping or what ever else that can possibly be imagined.
Thanks for not reading my posts. At least I respect you enough to read what you have to say in the matter. Seems the feeling isn't mutual.
Pinecone
I personally don't mind overmapping.

But then again, I only played rhythm games for 1/5th of how much Tidek had played so I guess my opinion doesn't play too much role here.
Entozer
I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Fullerene-

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Mapping over a song of your choice.
PyaKura
That's because overmapping is seen differently by each of us, hence why we can't agree on a common definition, and thus this discussion is pointless (but pretty fun to read nonetheless).

cf. Starry's post at the start of previous page.
Drace

Entozer wrote:

I've read every posts in the thread; So far, no one has defined overmapping that everyone agrees on.
Yeah but really I doubt we'd actually be able to come to definitive description as to when a map becomes "overmapped". Mostly due to how the "over" seems to incite negativity. It's simply a subjective matter, no more no less.

This is why I tried my best to generalize my arguments to cover all the possible outcomes. If you'll allow me to write a slightly edited quote of myself;

If "anything" makes the map more fun to it's target audience, then it was a perfect addition and did nothing but increase the map's "quality".
Where "anything" can include any definition of overmapping along with anything else that some might think shouldn't be used. May it be excessive use of a disliked pattern, some delay, speed changes, LN walls or w/e. The list of controversial materials that can be contained in a map goes on and on and doesn't limit itself to overmapping. I like to think of it as a neat general rule that can cover any opinions, biases, styles and mapping technique regardless of the case at hand.

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Tidek

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
Tristan97
So then the next step is to take experienced player's opinions on what maps should qualify for ranking, correct?

If the nature of osu!mania ranking criteria is subjective, it makes sense that we ask the community to actively participate in if they believe certain levels of saturation should be ranked.

https://osu.ppy.sh/s/123760

So, allow me to bring up Act 2 Liberation as an example.

Many people claim the CC difficulties to be 'overmapped', with difficulties ranging from 5.34 stars in the 4k CC (by LordRaika, a personal favorite in regards to mappers) all the way to a stunning 11.09 stars in the 8k CC collab between Raika and lZenxl.

I believe these difficulties stand to be technically accurate and mapped with logical patterns. I also personally think that the saturation is slightly higher than it should be in certain places, but with some edits, would argue that each of the CC difficulties are worthy of ranking.

Now, I'm only one person, but why don't we ask the opinion of others to get a better idea of what us (the community) wants?
Aqo
I put maps in my maps so that they can be overmaps

8-) 8-) 8-) 8-) 8-)
Tidek
@Tristan97
4K CC from your example obviously isnt overmapped, only that ending can be questionable tho. (and some patterns can be improved and make them a little harder as well).
Drace
waste of time

Tidek wrote:

Drace wrote:

My main point is understanding the simple concept of subjectivity to target audiences is this first step to overcome this bias that's preventing ET maps from being ranked.
Because most of mappers cant make a good 6*+ without overmapping? atm u act like ET maps are only the overmapped ones.
...I didn't say anything about overmapping in that quote?

Well congratulations on accurately displaying your inability to comprehend the basic concepts of subjectivity. Pretty sure you're just trolling at this point.

@Tristan97

I'd say you have the right idea, but the issue lies with the impossibilities constrained by the current ranking system. We can't really expect a mapper to go through a tedious process of gathering a bunch of player's opinion and then take those opinions up to the BATs and hope to convince them otherwise. Not to mention that said people clearly have contradicting beliefs as to what constitutes to quality. Rince and repeat for every map.

Really the best way would be to hold events where a bunch mappers submit their content restricted by no rules what so ever. And then encourage players to play them. This way even fameless mappers gets to have their maps checked out as much as the famous ones. A simple ladder-type community vote system, maybe screened, will decide which ones gets ranked. This would be a 100% community based decision where none of the biases of the "people in power" (popular modders, popular mappers and BATs) influence the results. It would give all maps from every style a fair chance. And best of all it will involve the most people possible.

It's just a basic idea that's not perfect on it's own, but it's pretty much a step in the direction of how I believe a ranking system would work best to please the largest majority of the playerbase possible. Both mappers and players.

But alas, no changes this drastic would happen, and I honestly have no clue how to go about pleasing this demographic within the current constraints. I'd go as far as saying it might even be impossible. But then I'd just be pessimistic.
Tidek
Sorry Mr Drace for wasting your time again but there is no such rule in ranking system that ET/very hard maps cant be ranked.

But I dont know such problems like this t/117221/start=45 are still happening ("ghost" difficulty wasnt ranked because it was too hard for community, well idk details of this anyway) because it was around 1year ago and some hard maps got ranked in that time.

Probably those are main problems why ET maps are not ranked: (wow, we are getting back to thread title)
1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
Drace
Where did I say there was a rule against ranking ET maps...? Please stop claiming I said things I haven't, that's the 4th time you did this. If you don't even understand what I'm saying what's the point in replying?

I wouldn't consider the ghost diff an ET map since it's actually pretty tame, and it was denied ranking for being overmapped. (See what we've been saying about subjectivity now? Do you even know what that means?)

As for the rest, I've mentioned something similar a few months ago: t/147552&start=152

Though your 3rd point doesn't really make sense, you seem to mean they're letting their biases govern their verdict on whether a map is good or not which is exactly what I've been saying since the start. Regardless, the issue presented is one that cannot be mended unless some changes are made, and my suggestion mends all 3 of your points. You seem to be agreeing with me despite seemingly trying to argue against me. To be honest I'm quite baffled as to what your goal in all of this might be.
ovnz
I am not a very experienced player, and I've only been playing VSRG some month atm. But that doesn't make my opinion invalid and will never do. What I'm gonna say may result of a lack of experience anyway, I don't really know. So...

Tidek wrote:

1. Mapper doesnt care about ranking because it takes atleast 1 or more moths to get it ranked.
I know some people who took a lot more than one month to get a map ranked. This depends on the mapper, it's not because you are too lazy to get a map that has a lot of difficulty / has a very high bpm or is longer than average / any other reason that every other mapper is like you and does not have the courage to do it. You are not the only guy in the universe, everybody is different. Do you even understand the concept of not being the center of the universe?

Tidek wrote:

2. Lack of community who can play, map and mod very well.
Sooo do you mean that nobody is able to get better at playing, mapping or modding? Would it take too long to improve that much? So maybe in one year or so, the community will be able to do all of them better, so ET maps will be able to get ranked? That's just stupid. Of course there are people who can map or mod very well anyway. I suggest you to read my first paragraph and add the notions of playing and modding to mapping, or any other thing, related or not to the game. You will learn a lot about humanity.

Tidek wrote:

3. BATs are afraid to rank that kind of maps because they dont know too much about them (based on their rank) or they just cant rank them (if situations like in example above are still happening)
1. If your point is valid, then it should apply to other game modes as well. I'm gonna take an example with a mainstream and hard map so it makes more sense to you.
http://0vn.eu/dpz6h.jpg Here's the big black (don't blame me please)
http://0vn.eu/pxo1h.jpg So he's the guy who approved it.
http://0vn.eu/2v8a6.jpg Haha lol noob he knows nothing about mapping (based on his rank), he shouldn't have even been able to approve this map.
So that's how you're thinking. Now, you should learn that a good mapper / modder (BAT included) does not necessary have a good rank because most of the time he will just not focus on playing. And even if he is, it means nothing because mapping skills or modding skills are different from playing skills.

And anyway, why are you complaining about ET maps? If you don't like them, then just don't play them and do not rank on them. But do not forbid everyone to rank on them. I don't even understand why does the fact that maps that you can't play/don't like get ranked seriously.

Oh and by the way. I don't believe that overmapping is a mapping style. But should that prevent overmapped maps to get ranked? Absolutely not.
AdamMZ
I actually agree with Tidek. We don't get many ET beatmaps maybe because the mapper doesn't care about getting ranked. If he/she does, he would improve it. Or maybe because lack of community. (I don't see you guys mapping) Also, you need to know that he discussed with other BATs and during that time there was no QATs. (Not sure if QATs could make this a different situation) So... both Tidek and your statement is invalid?
Tidek
@Ovnize

Ad.1 I have already 2 ranked maps and it takes me around 3month each to rank them. The most annoying point in ranking process is finding a free BATs, atm in osu!mania we have only few BATs and most of them are busy or inactive. I dont see a single motivation to rank them unless you are really patient like me.

Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).

Ad. 3 Big black example is pretty bad because it was ranked like 2 or more year ago, most of standard players are saying that that kind of map will never be ranked these days. osu!standard is a completely different story because its a new rhythm game for everyone. Games like osu!mania are played like since 1999 year

Rest of your post, I never said that I dont want ET maps and I was never complaining abouth them (unless its a really annoying overmap through whole song). And I can easily play and pass most of that kind of maps.
Kamikaze
@AdamMZ
Unrank mappers don't care about ranking because either they make stuff purerly for fun and don't even bother with looking for pepole to mod it or just give up seeing how hard it is to get BAT to check your map. Second case almost happened to me, but fortunately I found someone willing to help. Searching for mods is real pain in the ass unless you have some friends who mod stuff, especially with 3/4 of queues going: "Lenght under 3 min" or even "Lenght 1:30 or lower". Try to rank a map yourself before posting opinions.

AdamMZ wrote:

(I don't see you guys mapping)
I feel offended.

@Tidek

Tidek wrote:

Ad. 2 Its because most of ppl dont know how to mod that kind of maps and they are avoiding them. Most of ppl are only very good players or very good modders/mappers, there is very low amount of ppl who have skill to play that kind of maps and know structures of them (modding).
More like all the queues going TEEVEE SAIZU ONLI heh

Tidek wrote:

I was never complaining abouth them

heh^2

heh^3

heh^4
Tidek
heh666

Brackets op
AdamMZ

-Kamikaze- wrote:

AdamMZ wrote:

(I don't see you guys mapping)
I feel offended.
I'm sowwy. :c

I'm just gonna get out of here. Or keep reading the posts here.
Envisionise
Mapping is a form of art, a platform for creativity. Therefore, 'overmapping' doesn't exist in a place like here. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is your personal response to someone elses art. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is perfectly fine, but no map is actually overmapped. It does not mean that the work is invalid and is low in quality.

When you play someone's chart, you are playing the mapper's interpretation of the song. You are living and breathing their art. If you feel that chart is overmapped, that is your personal opinion of the chart. It does not mean that it's wrong, there is no such thing as wrong in art.
Someone else could play that chart and believe that it's a fun, high quality map.

I believe ranked maps are maps that are fun to play and are of at least decent quality. If a map targeted for ET players satisfies that criteria, why can't it be ranked? The chart is simply targeting a different audience, though a smaller one. Whether 99% of the community cannot appreciate the map, that 1% still finds the map fun and that map should satisfy the criteria of being ranked. Personally, I find MANY ranked maps aren't fun for me. Am i going out to bitch about it? Nope. I can appreciate the fact that others find it fun and I'm totally fine with that.

I'm not sure why ET maps aren't ranked. If the BAT's find charts low in quality or 'overmapped', they should listen to the players whom the map was targeted at. The experience range of the BATs isn't wide enough to speak for the entire community. In such a community driven game, I think this is a huge fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed.

plz rank et maps plz
Tear
Wtf 4 pages, tl;dr o_o

Drace: I didn't mean to say what's universally right or wrong, I guess I expect people to know to prepend "imo" to everything I say.
This will always be a problem as long as the concept of ranked maps exists, because it implies that there's a universal objective quality treshold. LR2 (and all other community-based games) do this right... Good maps stay popular, bad maps get forgotten. Except osu will never do that, because it would mean dropping the precious pp system.
JamesHappy

Envisionise wrote:

Mapping is a form of art, a platform for creativity. Therefore, 'overmapping' doesn't exist in a place like here. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is your personal response to someone elses art. Feeling that a chart is overmapped is perfectly fine, but no map is actually overmapped. It does not mean that the work is invalid and is low in quality.

When you play someone's chart, you are playing the mapper's interpretation of the song. You are living and breathing their art. If you feel that chart is overmapped, that is your personal opinion of the chart. It does not mean that it's wrong, there is no such thing as wrong in art.
Someone else could play that chart and believe that it's a fun, high quality map.

I believe ranked maps are maps that are fun to play and are of at least decent quality. If a map targeted for ET players satisfies that criteria, why can't it be ranked? The chart is simply targeting a different audience, though a smaller one. Whether 99% of the community cannot appreciate the map, that 1% still finds the map fun and that map should satisfy the criteria of being ranked. Personally, I find MANY ranked maps aren't fun for me. Am i going out to bitch about it? Nope. I can appreciate the fact that others find it fun and I'm totally fine with that.

I'm not sure why ET maps aren't ranked. If the BAT's find charts low in quality or 'overmapped', they should listen to the players whom the map was targeted at. The experience range of the BATs isn't wide enough to speak for the entire community. In such a community driven game, I think this is a huge fundamental flaw that needs to be addressed.

plz rank et maps plz
I agree with this.
ArcherLove
um
Well, that discussion is going to nowhere, probably my last post here.
ya, I was wondering who

corenik pls, what kind of ET maps you want
be specify :3

so people won't argument over subjective and never-ending topics..

aaa
corenik pls [2] where is your reply xD
kidlat020
if people want some objectivity here, then simply look at the top 50 scores of practically any ranked song. everyone is playing 99%.

this only says the ranked songs are too easy. the demand for harder songs is not stemming from any kind of "bias"

but personally, I'd be losing my own songs that I could play. 4 stars is my limit. its either A, B or dead.
Bobbias

kidlat020 wrote:

but personally, I'd be losing my own songs that I could play.
To be completely fair, for me, every map with the hardest difficulty less than about 4 stars is so easy I won't play it more than maybe once or twice (unless I absolutely love the song). If a map is too easy, it's just like if it was too hard. Sure, I can play it, but it's no fun, just like nofailing on something way too hard would be for most players. The ranking criteria is supposed to deal with this issue by ensuring that there are both easy difficulties and harder difficulties... Unfortunately the rule is currently biased towards easy maps.
Tidek

Bobbias wrote:

Unfortunately the rule is currently biased towards easy maps.
https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Osu!mania_Ranking_Criteria Where?

The reason why hard maps are not ranked were mentioned before in this thread.
Bobbias
From https://osu.ppy.sh/wiki/Ranking_Criteria#Mapset:

The mapset must have a well-designed spread of difficulties, containing at least an Easy or a Normal difficulty. This is so that players of all levels of experience are able to enjoy maps of the songs they love.

The difficulties in the mapset must be in a consecutive order. Easy or Normal can be skipped if the gap in the star rating spread allows it. The order can be seen in the chart below. If your mapset has two difficulties, one of them cannot be an Insane or Expert. The lowest difficulty must be below 2.0 stars. The difficulty level of Taiko-specific and osu!mania-specific difficulties must also follow a well-designed spread and might contain an Hard/Insane only, if there are standard difficulties present. In CtB, the spread evaluation is upon the BATs discretion. The difficulty spread is determined by the map's star rating. A map falls under a certain difficulty when having a specific star rating:
Below 1.5: Easy
Below 2.25: Normal
Below 3.75: Hard
Below 5.25: Insane
Above 5.25: Expert
So, you can add a Hard/Insane mania difficulty to a standard map, but if you make a standalone mania map, you must follow the first part of that section, meaning you must have one difficulty at or below 2.0 stars and a second difficulty that isn't too much harder. This means that if you want a map with easy difficulties, you only need 2, if you have something with harder difficulties, you may need 3 or 4 difficulties to satisfy this rule. That biases it towards easier maps.
kidlat020
Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.

It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.

In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.

perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.

(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
Frustration

kidlat020 wrote:

Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.

It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.

In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.

perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.

(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
You know that most of the top players play using a keyboard, right?
Tokiiwa

kidlat020 wrote:

jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.
do you even have a IIDX controller
lenpai

kidlat020 wrote:

Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.

It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.

In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.

perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.

(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
:O

I actually tried playing beatmania gold (yeah, the actual arcade)
I find playing on that kind of controller very hard I can't even pass level 3 songs on standard mode.
Certain patterns might be easier on that kind of controller.

I'm currently not against what you said due to my lack of knowledge in using iidx controler but would you mind backing up your statement that it makes ET charts easier?
kidlat020
as I said, jackhammers. when a column is jackhammer you can at least use two fingers instead of one.

in theory at least.

all that's left is grindingpracticing with IIDX controller.
Starry-

kidlat020 wrote:

Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.

It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.

In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.

perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.

(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
I was in the middle of writing a long post in reply to this but I couldn't be bothered. That's just.. wrong lol, don't be convinced if it's not even true.

Oh and it's sad we went hugely offtopic again, but I think there wasn't much of a balanced discussion in the first place.
Pinecone
Rofl jackhammer is nothing on controller?
Cool story bro






Case closed

Now stop complaining you can't jackhammer on a keyboard.
richardfeder
wtf is this sensitive IR fc
Bobbias

richardfeder wrote:

wtf is this sensitive IR fc
magic
Kamikaze
Again the same guy with his weird theories lmao
Nekro_old_1

kidlat020 wrote:

Ok, I'm now convinced. the ET maps are nowhere near ET at all. all you need is IIDX controller.

It is a lot friendlier than keyboards. yes, even mech ones. jackhammers are nothing on an IIDX controller.

In O!std terms, its like playing std on mouse vs on a tablet.

perhaps if peppy would merchandise said controller.

(perhaps this is why I feel like I don't improve)
You should spend your time playing the game instead of cooking up ridiculous theories.

10% difference between 0133's (KB) score and the other 2 top controller scores (さや and Rag's) in the current overjoy course


Playing with a IIDX controller isn't as easy as you might think.... and it doesn't give an instant skill-boost if you switch from a KB to controller (it's quite the opposite. You're essentially relearning with new finger placement)
lenpai

kidlat020 wrote:

as I said, jackhammers. when a column is jackhammer you can at least use two fingers instead of one.

in theory at least.

all that's left is grindingpracticing with IIDX controller.
If the purpose of using an iidx controller is just for jacks, in which not all ET maps consist of, I'm sticking with my keyboard
*Cough i can jack a lot better than LN
kidlat020
I'll just crunch in the corner over there...
AdamMZ
^ same
Ikaros-
#backtotopicpls

we want ranked ET beatmaps
Kamikaze
Noice sig you've got there m8
tbh, getting back on topic won't do anything. Instead of arguing/posting here we should be making this hard stuff and/or modding it. That'll help the cause
Bobbias

-Kamikaze- wrote:

Noice sig you've got there m8
tbh, getting back on topic won't do anything. Instead of arguing/posting here we should be making this hard stuff and/or modding it. That'll help the cause
I was thinking the same thing. Maybe someone should put together a mod queue just for ET diffs? Although this would only work if you could find a few people who are willing, and can actually mod ET maps properly...
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