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Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

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This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,788
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Amianki
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.

EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises. I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
Drezi
To be honest, the merits of playing FL can be debated to no end, but this is not really relevant to this suggestion, since the value of FL can be adjusted to an accepted amount which is agreed upon in both systems (more easily in pp I believe).

FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
VoidnOwO
:)
DT-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.

Sorry if the explanation is a bit messy.
Drezi

DT-sama wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses.
Either that, or you could display the PP you'd recieve if the score was submitted at that time without finishing the song. I know that wouldn't be possible normally, but I think the system could still evaluate it the same way based on combo, number of 300s etc out of the total of the map.
Amianki

BRBP wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.
I'm talking about being able to complete the map with a good score.

If you can get a good score with no-mod, you can get a good score with Flashlight. All you need to do is spend up to thousands of tries perfecting it. It doesn't make you more skilled at the game. All it does is prove you can put the time in to manually memorizing the whole map consistently enough to FC it.
Grappemaker
I think it's a really interesting suggestion, but in my opinion it's too much of an ideological request rather than being a realistic one.

Surely, it is great to have scoring that is mostly dependant by skill, but scoring as it is now already reflects skill quite a bit. It's indeed a bit flawed since it's too dependent on your performance at specific times rather than overall performance, e.g. hitting a handful of 100's at the end of a big combo will lower your score more than when hitting a handful earlier when your combo is still in the double digits, while overall your performance is still the same. But those flaws are quite minor and if you look at the bigger picture, better scores are harder to achieve than worse scores.

Also, having four different scoreboards for individual stats wouldn't be much of an addition, since they would already be heavily determined by the style of the map itself. Hence the current scoreboard already tells a lot about a player's capabilities if you're interested and motivated enough to look into a player's abilities.

2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.
PP is actually updated quite regularly and not as consistent as score is, considering the scoring algorithm is updated practically never. It's indeed not much of an issue, but it can make scoreboards fluctuate too much and rankings would become less solid and therefore less reliable because the score you set today might change over the course of time.

You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.
It would also have a major impact on gameplay. Right now, as you play the song you can watch your score increase and it can be a satisfying thing to see. Once you get to the point where overall performance starts playing a significant role, you'll get bothered a lot by breaking combos and seeing your shitty accuracy after going ham with 100's on a long stream. Seeing those is already demotivating, and to many of us a reason to hit the retry button for a better attempt right away. Imagining seeing the possible max pp all the time and the only thing it will do is decrease, and you'll constantly have the shitty feeling of not being able to get the highest possible amount of pp when you actually played the song quite well.

The most significant change that this would bring that I am interested in is the fact that your highest pp rewarding score would be taken into account, rather than the score with the highest actual score. Meaning getting a good score with DT when you already have a 99% FC no-mod score, would actually become an interesting thing to do, as right now it would net you absolutely nothing.
Paco
I like this.
1+
haxsu

NixXSkate wrote:

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises.
This by a long shot. Several people fail to understand how hard FL actually is especially at a high BPM with DT. Sorry to say this Drezi but I highly disagree with you. DT+FL should give a lot more pp then HD+DT.

I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
I...really REALLY like this idea. It would make it so that it goes in the order of HD>HR>FL>DT instead of HD=HR>FL=DT. It makes no sense to me that HD is worth the same score multiplier as HR. HR physically changes the map which makes it legitimately more difficult. The CS, AR, OD and HP all multilplies by 1.4 when HR mod is enabled while HD mod remains unchanged. Only real difference with HD is that now you have to aim each note a little bit better since each note becomes invisible after a while. Changing HD multiplier down to 1.03x or 1.04x would make a lot more sense to me while HR should remain unchanged. As for FL, I believe that it should NOT beat DT however it should definitely beat HD (by itself) and HR (by itself). I believe that changing FL to 1.09x or 1.10x would make more sense to me. This will make it so that HD+HR would be worth just slightly more then FL alone (if acc is good enough) and make it so that DT by itself beats HD+HR (if acc is good enough). This would also make it so that HD+DT+HR would be worth just slightly more then HD+DT+FL which is good seeing that HR makes everything harder to time. This would balance out the scoring system a lot better in my opinion.

I will admit, I was originally all for the idea of making ppv2 as the new scoring system but then I look into it deeply and realized that doing this would not be such a great idea due to the fact that ppv2 has not fully evolved enough for it to become the new scoring stream as well as FL being so under capped in comparison to the other mods. It makes absolutely no sense that HD+DT gives much more pp then DT+FL for example. PPv2 focuses mainly on pure physical skill and very little of mental skill. There needs to be a good enough balance between the two before I can accept this.
RaneFire
Dennischan said all I wanted to say.

ppv2 might be more accurate for a majority of the playerbase, but there are still exceptions. It's not perfect and certainly far from being absolute because it can be changed towards perfection. Scoring is at least an absolute system, because it never changes.

The solution is to incorporate an absolute component into ppv2, so that pattern recognition and memory recall ability can be accurately accounted for in future revisions to the system, allowing it to be worked towards perfection at no cost to the players scores/replays which would otherwise disappear without a trace.

Tom94 wrote:

There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist,
Will support if per-mod high scores and replays are implemented, to avoid top50 replay problems upon changes to the system, and allow people to sift through potentially great scores not being rewarded as they should, and bring them to attention.

Legacy for viewing score ranks could stick around for a while as people adjust to it and replay data is gathered. It would also serve well for testing purposes, especially since we've only ever seen TP top scores (which only gathered data from the top50). We may be surprised to discover what kind of scores get accepted into the top50 over others, and whether they are actually more terrible than we had first imagined. It's never been tested publicly on this scale, the feedback would be very important and probably better to start sooner than later.
Xantaria
I think this is the way to go. Score doesn't even matter in osu!. So why would you want to sort ranks by score anyways.
Ace3DF
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
lightlance7
I don't think this is fair to the HDHR and FL players.
Amianki

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
xasuma
I don't even care if this gets implemented or not anymore. Just fix what it says in my signature .. You can't have people afraid of playing the game.
Kaeru

CalignoBot wrote:

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
Topic Starter
Ohrami

Kaeru wrote:

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
So apparently constant variation for a more accurate and precise system is worse than an old system that sucks but never changes. Imagine if all the scientists and inventors of the world thought that way.

Your last sentence is basically an admission that score is, in fact, an inaccurate system. Otherwise, why would you ever want to replace a higher score with a lower score? If it was accurate, then the best play would get the highest score.
CXu
Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL.
Ace3DF
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Topic Starter
Ohrami

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
That's not how it works, and even if it was, it isn't really relevant to my request.
jesse1412

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Yes.

On your hard difficulties. Try checking out some really difficult maps with dt, you know the ones that are the fastest maps possible in the game and all. All that free pp for playing the fastest maps with the biggest jumps oh how terrible.
Amianki

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.

Kaeru wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
I was actually referring to the score ranking system when I said "current scoring system", not the ppv2 system.
Seto Kousuke

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
^
Kittles
This would just defeat the purpose of osu...
Drezi
oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
Kittles

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.
Drezi

pied wrote:

The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score.
Yeah, that's what you do with pp aswell, or do we need to multiply it by 1,000,000 to make it seem 'high'?
jesse1412

pied wrote:

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.
That's exactly how pp works...
[WP]
i think mania scoring system is a better idea

imo
Topic Starter
Ohrami

[WP] wrote:

i think mania scoring system is a better idea

imo
hell no
bomber34
as a casual player I really don't care if this changes. More accurate ranking sounds nice (since most people aren't able to get into the top 50 anyway why should they care)

I especially see no reason against this if we can still have the score system as an alternaitve. We already have mod-specific, country, friends ranking.
I know it adds a lot to the database but with that I simply see no reason why anyone would care.

About the pp changes ... I don't know. I rarely watch replays so it wouldn't effect me and I don't know who really wants to watch some #25 or below on a map when most people use the same mods anyway.
Defacer
Just add a scoreboard based on pp next to the existing score one, even if it's just for testing purposes.Many replays won't exist but it's just about bringing attention to actually good scores that remain completely unnoticed.To all the people who cannot realize what I am saying->It's not only sayonara-bye who is #1 on everything with DTHD, there are many many players being able to do maps like him, maybe without hd, maybe without such accuracy but still deserve respect for it.That way, you will all learn about great players that are right now underrated.

I don't understand what's this big argument all about, what's wrong with addition of a scoreboard based on what actually makes up our ranks?
Kittles
So basically spinners would also be removed, since they dont affect pp. oh yeah take out combos too since everyone will just be going for fc and ss anyways
Amianki

pied wrote:

So basically spinners would also be removed, since they dont affect pp. oh yeah take out combos too since everyone will just be going for fc and ss anyways
Slippery slope fallacy.
LexiaLovesU

dennischan wrote:

pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.

I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.

maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.

ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
You obviously never played DT in insanes before ._. FL is just Retry Spam(not really hard just need paitence) while in DT you actually need skill to hit the notes
Kittles
Since the whole argument seems about mods, why not just buff dt multiplier or nerf fl or hd?
Vuelo Eluko

Defacer wrote:

Just add a scoreboard based on pp next to the existing score one, even if it's just for testing purposes.Many replays won't exist but it's just about bringing attention to actually good scores that remain completely unnoticed.To all the people who cannot realize what I am saying->It's not only sayonara-bye who is #1 on everything with DTHD, there are many many players being able to do maps like him, maybe without hd, maybe without such accuracy but still deserve respect for it.That way, you will all learn about great players that are right now underrated.

I don't understand what's this big argument all about, what's wrong with addition of a scoreboard based on what actually makes up our ranks?
i like this idea better, jesus has a thread on it already to have a "pp scoreboard" as a supporter feature alongside country/friend rankings, and its much more reasonable than ousting score completely
Topic Starter
Ohrami
I'd be fine with having both scoreboards, as long as the highest score to each are saved (along with the replay), and we can set which one to view by default.

pied wrote:

Since the whole argument seems about mods, why not just buff dt multiplier or nerf fl or hd?
Because this comes up so often, I've updated the OP with the reasons why it can't work.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

An another board such a ppboard could be nice, but only with the existing one, like an option that we can switch which board we want to see.

No votes given for this request but I'm not totally againts tho.
Dexem
Can this be a thing?
Topic Starter
Ohrami

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

An another board such a ppboard could be nice, but only with the existing one, like an option that we can switch which board we want to see.

No votes given for this request but I'm not totally againts tho.
pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.
Green Platinum
I'm currently unconvinced.
My major issue is players who are new are going to be completely confused by a leaderboard completely alien from anything to their own scores. I know there is a wealth of information available on the wiki but the truth is few new players read it and I run into plenty that don't know about pp, it needs to be more prominently visible and because it can't be displayed mid map few may actually realise what effects it's value. Additionally while this may work on difficult maps with a large range of pp values I can only imagine extremely easy songs having the same value throughout the whole top 50.

Also what about local leaderboards I believe that pp is calculated online so what happens to unranked and offline plays?

I do support an option to sort by pp or simply just have it displayed on the end map score screen. I'd love to see the Auto's pp from an all mod for Big Black etc.
Drezi

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

Green Platinum wrote:

My major issue is players who are new are going to be completely confused by a leaderboard completely alien from anything to their own scores.
If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
What type of score a score on a scoreboard is ?
Bauxe

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
PP isn't really something that can be calculated as you progress through a song...
Drezi

Bauxe wrote:

PP isn't really something that can be calculated as you progress through a song...
Not true, there are viable suggestions, read back.

MiniTokki wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
What type of score a score on a scoreboard is ?
This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
This guy ? I do not allow you to take that tone. You can't argue people just because you don't see their point.

In osu!, there notes and combo, which give you a score, this is how the game work.
No matter how fast / blindfolded / with your head you hit the notes, you just need to be in rythm, this is a rythmic game.
This is the basis rules to get a score in the game.

PP are totally different, I don't know how to spell it (my english suck) but basically, they are not basis rules, they are implemented by our own judgement on how much is difficult to hit a note. This is totally subjective so totally different imo.

That lost what the game is.

So it's why, I think, PP can't be a scoreboard.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
Because the current score system clearly isn't arbitrary what with how it multiplies your score based on combo, how 100s are worth 1/3 the points of a 300 and 50s worth 1/6, how misses/sliderbreaks end your combo but not 100s or 50s, how the mods multiply score by completely arbitrary numbers...

Yes, I'm sure that pp, something most people agree is relatively good at judging the difficulty of beatmaps and plays, which it does through looking at actual beatmap heuristics such as spacing, how fast you have to hit notes, how long the map is, OD, etc. is a far more arbitrary system.
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
This guy ? I do not allow you to take that tone. You can't argue people just because you don't see their point.

In osu!, there notes and combo, which give you a score, this is how the game work.
No matter how fast / blindfolded / with your head you hit the notes, you just need to be in rythm, this is a rythmic game.
This is the basis rules to get a score in the game.

PP are totally different, I don't know how to spell it (my english suck) but basically, they are not basis rules, they are implemented by our own judgement on how much is difficult to hit a note. This is totally subjective so totally different imo.

That lost what the game is.

So it's why, I think, PP can't be a scoreboard.
Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
Are you for real ?

Where the fuck a spoke about if PP was well balanced or not ?
Even if it was a good system or not ?

Those people who reply to look cool and funny but are not able to read properly ahah.

Why people has to be so bitter on internet ?
Ritzeh
If this does get implemented, there should be decimals in the score. ex: 150.111 pp
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
Are you for real ?

Where the fuck a spoke about if PP was well balanced or not ?
Even if it was a good system or not ?

Those people who reply to look cool and funny but are not able to read properly ahah.

Why people has to be so bitter on internet ?
Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
CelegaS
Osu is an arcade-like game so performance don't matter, only score is important. Too much people don't understand that and are focused on pp.
Drezi
Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
Bauxe

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
So you want the new players spamming threads about how they got 1 point on a map?
Full Tablet

Bauxe wrote:

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
So you want the new players spamming threads about how they got 1 point on a map?
They could scale the pp number up by a certain value for display (for example, scale by 1,000 it so ~1pp becomes 1,241), or show decimals (the amount of pp of a play already has decimal value, it is just rounded for display).
Dexus
Bauxe: you made me think this up t/225131
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
This is 100% subjective since that PP system and that idea of skills was implemented in addition on the basis game.

I think you misunderstand what the game is (or was) and what we want it to become.

Even in term of skills (term subjective...), the PP system is not objective.
If it was, it would be perfect but that not the case. I think Tom94 and peppy are working on it yet.
But if it was objective why on earth we would change it ?
You said it yourself, if objective, we can't denny.

It's called balance. We look at the system subjectively and try to make it objective.
Ace3DF
It would make every scoreboard on easy - hard maps irelavent seeing how all the top scores will be HDHRDTFLPF.
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
This is 100% subjective since that PP system and that idea of skills was implemented in addition on the basis game.

I think you misunderstand what the game is (or was) and what we want it to become.

Even in term of skills (term subjective...), the PP system is not objective.
If it was, it would be perfect but that not the case. I think Tom94 and peppy are working on it yet.
But if it was objective why on earth we would change it ?
You said it yourself, if objective, we can't denny.

It's called balance. We look at the system subjectively and try to make it objective.
It objectively places the good players at the top. If you disagree with this then you must be delusional. Maybe the order isn't perfect but it certainly does sort the best from the good from the bad.

Ace3DF wrote:

It would make every scoreboard on easy - hard maps irelavent seeing how all the top scores will be HDHRDTFLPF.
Just like the current system wow!

CelegaS wrote:

Osu is an arcade-like game so performance don't matter, only score is important. Too much people don't understand that and are focused on pp.
pp = score in this proposal, "Too much people don't understand that and are focused on [the old scoring system]."
Sea_Food
I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that

"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."

I love that there is the pp system in this game and it definetly is better for overall player ranking than the old ranked score was. But when you are playing the map, your progress should be shown as a simple score system. Why? Because literally every game and video game ever has it that way, no reason for osu! to be some kind of weird thing that is too complicatedm

Also lol at complaining that hdhr and fl give too much score compared to dt. Alot of top scores use the dt mod, way more are there dt than fl. And if you still think that is a problem, how about just increase the dt multiplier insted of change whole system?


Dexus wrote:

Bauxe: you made me think this up http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/225131
Bauxe you monster
Drezi

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
its not like a pp scoring system avoids the issue. if you could see a live number showing how much pp the play is worth while the map is being played [impossible for more reasons then i want to get into but bare with me] the number would barely move until you get past the halfway point in the song,and it would just go up faster from there.
Drezi

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

if you could see a live number showing how much pp the play is worth while the map is being played [impossible for more reasons then i want to get into but bare with me]
Acutally this hasn't been confirmed/denied by Tom, and I'm not really convinced that you're an expert regarding the technical possibilities/limitations here, but if you are, please do elaborate. It's a rather important issue and it would be silly to drop the subject just because someone claimed it to be impossible.
Sea_Food

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
Ok i admit that the current scoring system is more complicated than in football, but for a video game its okay. Its not nearly as complicated as you make it sound. I actually think that score per note should be:

hit value*combo*mode multipliers

Its actually a little different
Score = Hit Value + Hit Value * (Combo multiplier * Difficulty multiplier * Mod multiplier) / 25
But its still pretty simple and actually in a sense the same as the one i think it should be.


Also the reason i dont quite mania is because there the score is calculated this way:



I think i red that through 10 times and I still dont quite understand it. Clearly the most complicated score calculation system I have ever seen in my life. And pp calculation is even more complicated. If this threads suggestion went through, they could change the osu! slogan to "rythm and formulas that you wont understand."
D e s
Why not both? then we will have 2 global ranking
Drezi

Sea_Food wrote:

I think i red that through 10 times and I still dont quite understand it. Clearly the most complicated score calculation system I have ever seen in my life. And pp calculation is even more complicated. If this threads suggestion went through, they could change the osu! slogan to "rythm and formulas that you wont understand."
you just need to play well. you don't need to understand the formulas (only to the point that combo and accuracy are the main factors).
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

It objectively places the good players at the top. If you disagree with this then you must be delusional. Maybe the order isn't perfect but it certainly does sort the best from the good from the bad.
Nah, you still don't get the point.

There is a game, with his rules, they are objective, it's what the game is.
There is a scoreboard based on it, he's objective too.
That scoreboard do not pretend to rank skills or anything, just the score with his rules.

If you want to replace scoreboard, add more rules, this will not be the same game.
Everything that you can add gonna be subjective.

Yes, PP places objectively the good players at the top, but that concept don't even exist in the game.
Drezi

MiniTokki wrote:

Nah, you still don't get the point.

There is a game, with his rules, they are objective, it's what the game is.
There is a scoreboard based on it, he's objective too.
Yes, my friend there is a certain ruleset and a scoreboard based on it, and why would you believe that it's of divine origin, and changing that ruleset to a better one ruins the game? How can you say it's objective, when it's an arbitrarily chosen ruleset, just like pp. But objectively pp does a pretty good job at placing better plays higher.
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Drezi wrote:

Yes, my friend there is a certain ruleset and a scoreboard based on it, and why would you believe that it's of divine origin, and changing that ruleset to a better one ruins the game? How can you say it's objective, when it's an arbitrarily chosen ruleset, just like pp. But objectively pp does a pretty good job at placing better plays higher.
I'm not a believer so this is certainly not a divine origin, just some game developers I guess...

And sorry to tell you that, but yes, when you create a game with rulesset, they are objective. They make what your game is and how you wanted it to become. We can all allow playing with our hands in football but this is not gonna be football anymore. And I didn't say that will ruins (make it bad or something, it does not matter here), I say that gonna change the purpose of the game.

You just misunderstand what the game is, what the devs wanted, what the score does and what we want with PP.
Drezi
wtf is up with all the horrible football analogies. please use some logic.

this game is about clicking on circles to rythm, and the way you're scored has absolutely nothing to do with this gameplay, and can be changed for the better...
ARRACHEZ VOUS
At least, using analogies is a sort of arguments. Arguments, something that all your post are missing.

Reads some books, things are not that simple.

But above all, when you want to discuss with someone, make sure to read what they write.
Drezi
I give up. :cry:
Topic Starter
Ohrami
The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.
Tom94
This whole discussion about objective vs. subjective is completely pointless imho. Both the current scoring system and pp are objective in the sense that a computer rates scores based on rock-solid algorithms. At the same time both the scoring system and pp try to objectively rate a score as close as possible to the general subjective meaning of skill the community has.

Showing pp while playing would not be a very good idea I think. The system would have to make assumptions about the rest of the score which has not been played yet.

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.
Sea_Food

Kyou-kun wrote:

The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.
Excuse me that my analogy was not 100% accurate, but my point was that the base score system should be kept simple. As it is done everywhere else.
Topic Starter
Ohrami
But the problem is that you can't accurately judge skill based on simple score system in osu!, because of the fact that there are so many different levels which require different skills, while you can accurately judge skill based on a simple score system in football, because there's only one "level", and it always requires the same set of skills to master it.
jesse1412
Football skill is much more like ppv1. Football can ONLY be measured relative to other players and it's a pretty stupid argument. The limit in performance in football is relative to the limit in opposition to test against. osu! has no limit hence why it's completely different. Still I prefer pp to score.
xasuma
o_0
Sea_Food

Kyou-kun wrote:

But the problem is that you can't accurately judge skill based on simple score system in osu!, because of the fact that there are so many different levels which require different skills, while you can accurately judge skill based on a simple score system in football, because there's only one "level", and it always requires the same set of skills to master it.
What am I even reading. Well i wont give a deeper opinion on that because i really dont think its relevant to the suggestion.
Drezi

Tom94 wrote:

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.
And what about the thing I suggested - the rest of the map being counted as neither misses nor 300s, but null (same as if you missed the rest of the map, but without the miss penalty for the not yet played objects)?

Even if that's impossible, TBH noone really cares about their score while playing (oh yeah I've reached 1,656,565 already!? meh).
The main purpose of it is to allow for a constantly changing ranking mid-game in multiplayer and for that the "assumes 300s for the rest of the map" method would be perfectly fine.

If that's demoralizing, pp wouldn't even have to be displayed while playing, only be used to determine the multiplayer ranking mid-game without displaying the pp value. Seeing 'current combo' plus 'max combo achieved so far' and accuracy (maybe for the others too in multi?) should be enough while playing imo, the end result is what matters really.

I hope that upon closely inspecting my post, even MiniTokki can find faint traces of arguments in it. No offense man, but that comment cracked me up.
silmarilen

Drezi wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.
And what about the thing I suggested - the rest of the map being counted as neither misses nor 300s, but null (same as if you missed the rest of the map, but without the miss penalty for the not yet played objects)?

Tom94 wrote:

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.
Vuelo Eluko

silmarilen wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.
actually counting the parts of the map played as neither misses nor 300's would still work just fine without lagging since it doesnt have to recalculate the map every hit object. just once. for example, take a 800 combo map, if you have 400 combo currently + 98% acc it shows the pp you'd have in game as though you cleared it with 400 combo +98 acc... and goes up/down from there. PP has to be calculated live yeah but not the difficulty of the map.

that said, its still pointless
Drezi
yeah, as Bassist Vinyl said, what I mentioned is not the same as recalculating the map as a whole after every note, c'mon i can read what Tom posted just fine lol.
Full Tablet

Sea_Food wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.
Excuse me that my analogy was not 100% accurate, but my point was that the base score system should be kept simple. As it is done everywhere else.
pp calculation isn't really that hard, even, it is simpler to calculate than score, since it doesn't rely on the distribution of the 300s-100s-50s-Misses through the play (just the total amount of each of these and the Max Combo). Also score considers spinners and slider-tick bonuses.
The calculation is something like this http://pastebin.com/XDDgKEvw (this was for the tp system during September 2013, some values in there have changed, and some parts of the calculation probably have changed by now in ppv2), the hidden variables currently are the Aim Difficulty and Speed Difficulty for each beatmap (which are correlated to the Star Difficulty).
haha5957
PP doesn't necessarily have to be exactly converted to score. The problem we have right now is that "highscore doesn't mean high pp".

Seems like accuracy change during game is making the problem. Well, I'm not 100% sure how pp works, but I believe Accuracy score and Combo scores are seperated (according to reddit pp analyse.)

Then just make Accuracy as an Bonus score after play, just like how Jubeat and DJMax technika does.


Here's an idea :

1) Make every object has the same basic score. If you hit the object regardless of how accurate you were, you get (let's say) 500 score every object.
2) Seems like combo scores are dependant on the maximum combo you achieved on the map. Every maxcombo you achieve, you get extra score. (for example, you get 500 for every note, and another 500 for your combo score. after you miss, you won't get that extra 500 untill you reach your last maximum combo)
3) If there are any modifiers for # of 50 or 100 or miss, just have them sum up to the bonus score that will be given after the play with the accuracy bonus score.



Since accuracy constantly changes(and most likely to drop after you miss or 100) it would be weird to be counted realtime. However using bonus score can possibly solve this and make score directly reflect PP

pros everything


cons you can't accurately tell if it will beat your highscore or not before you finish the play (However I do think this should be encouraged)
manjumochi

haha5957 wrote:

PP doesn't necessarily have to be exactly converted to score. The problem we have right now is that "highscore doesn't mean high pp".

Seems like accuracy change during game is making the problem. Well, I'm not 100% sure how pp works, but I believe Accuracy score and Combo scores are seperated (according to reddit pp analyse.)

Then just make Accuracy as an Bonus score after play, just like how Jubeat and DJMax technika does.


Here's an idea :

1) Make every object has the same basic score. If you hit the object regardless of how accurate you were, you get (let's say) 500 score every object.
2) Seems like combo scores are dependant on the maximum combo you achieved on the map. Every maxcombo you achieve, you get extra score. (for example, you get 500 for every note, and another 500 for your combo score. after you miss, you won't get that extra 500 untill you reach your last maximum combo)
3) If there are any modifiers for # of 50 or 100 or miss, just have them sum up to the bonus score that will be given after the play with the accuracy bonus score.



Since accuracy constantly changes(and most likely to drop after you miss or 100) it would be weird to be counted realtime. However using bonus score can possibly solve this and make score directly reflect PP

pros everything


cons you can't accurately tell if it will beat your highscore or not before you finish the play (However I do think this should be encouraged)
This is a good idea, it is too painful to see you made a better accuracy with the same combo (or almost) and have less score and you have to stick with worse performance as top performance.
Dexus
The game is dependant on combo and accuracy; yet the reward for accuracy is greatly diminished when combo isnt maximized; the opposite way accuracy can be poor and the combo can be maximized. Thr player with a full combo and way less accuracy shluldnt be rewarded more than a person with really good accuracy and a ranfom miss. The fact a miss means a useless play is only because of the scoring system in its current state. If we switched to pp based ranking then those amaxing plays with a minor miss wouldnt be completely useless

Edit: forgive the terrible spelling; I'm on mobile and its a pain in the ass to type on this new phone
Sea_Food

Dexus wrote:

The game is dependant on combo and accuracy; yet the reward for accuracy is greatly diminished when combo isnt maximized; the opposite way accuracy can be poor and the combo can be maximized. Thr player with a full combo and way less accuracy shluldnt be rewarded more than a person with really good accuracy and a ranfom miss. The fact a miss means a useless play is only because of the scoring system in its current state. If we switched to pp based ranking then those amaxing plays with a minor miss wouldnt be completely useless
People on this thread keep using this argument but dont you guys know how much a combo affects pp aswell? Much more than accuracy.
Full Tablet

Sea_Food wrote:

Dexus wrote:

The game is dependant on combo and accuracy; yet the reward for accuracy is greatly diminished when combo isnt maximized; the opposite way accuracy can be poor and the combo can be maximized. Thr player with a full combo and way less accuracy shluldnt be rewarded more than a person with really good accuracy and a ranfom miss. The fact a miss means a useless play is only because of the scoring system in its current state. If we switched to pp based ranking then those amaxing plays with a minor miss wouldnt be completely useless
People on this thread keep using this argument but dont you guys know how much a combo affects pp aswell? Much more than accuracy.
In score, the combo increases the total score quadratically Θ(x^2) (A single combo of 1000 is worth roughly 4 times more score than a single combo of 500), if the combo breaks in a play are distributed evenly through the map, the max combo increases the total score linearly Θ(x) (2 times more total score with 1000 combo than two 500 combos in a map). Accuracy percentage affects the score linearly Θ(x^1) (90% accuracy is about 10% less score than 100% accuracy).

In tp (which is similar to the current pp), during September 2013, the total tp is the sum of Speed, Aim and Accuracy values. With Speed and Aim, the accuracy percentage is a factor of: (100%+Acc%)/2 (So 90%accuracy is worth about 5% less than 100% accuracy for Speed and Aim). With Accuracy, the accuracy percentage increases the value with a growth of Θ(x^24) (90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy). Max Combo in Speed and Aim increases their values with a growth of Θ(x^0.8) (Slightly slower than linearly), and doesn't affect Accuracy.

Overall, accuracy is much more important than max combo in pp, but since the variance of Max Combo is usually higher than the variance of Accuracy between consecutive plays of the same player (it is common to improve the combo from 400 to 900 in two consecutive plays, but getting from 97%acc to SS is harder unless the map is short), the differences of max combo tend to play a bigger role in increasing the amount of pp a map gives.
nooblet

haha5957 wrote:

PP doesn't necessarily have to be exactly converted to score. The problem we have right now is that "highscore doesn't mean high pp".

Seems like accuracy change during game is making the problem. Well, I'm not 100% sure how pp works, but I believe Accuracy score and Combo scores are seperated (according to reddit pp analyse.)

Then just make Accuracy as an Bonus score after play, just like how Jubeat and DJMax technika does.


Here's an idea :

1) Make every object has the same basic score. If you hit the object regardless of how accurate you were, you get (let's say) 500 score every object.
2) Seems like combo scores are dependant on the maximum combo you achieved on the map. Every maxcombo you achieve, you get extra score. (for example, you get 500 for every note, and another 500 for your combo score. after you miss, you won't get that extra 500 untill you reach your last maximum combo)
3) If there are any modifiers for # of 50 or 100 or miss, just have them sum up to the bonus score that will be given after the play with the accuracy bonus score.



Since accuracy constantly changes(and most likely to drop after you miss or 100) it would be weird to be counted realtime. However using bonus score can possibly solve this and make score directly reflect PP

pros everything


cons you can't accurately tell if it will beat your highscore or not before you finish the play (However I do think this should be encouraged)

Have you even thought about how you'd even implement this? Like, the whole game up till now has been scored this way, it's not gonna change that easily. How would you deal with the billions of scores set up till now? Start new work ranked maps? Please, let's not be naive, this would make osu a completely different game. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I completely agree the scores should be based on raw combo/accuracy if that's all the algorithm calculates, in fact I'd have quite a few different personal best scores, but a change like this is pretty unreasonable to the people who scored in the past 7 years.

Edit: The most ideal change would be to score the same way Mania is, but likewise this would be unfair to the billions of scores made up till now.

Drezi wrote:

yeah, as Bassist Vinyl said, what I mentioned is not the same as recalculating the map as a whole after every note, c'mon i can read what Tom posted just fine lol.
What Tom means is the difficulty of the map is changed with every note placed, so difficulty would be constantly changing if the rest of the map was considered to be null. Star rating evens out after about half the map as long as there aren't any huge difficulty spikes. Why does it matter if the rest of the map is considered as misses or null anyways? It's not like you'll get PP for combining half of something. The amount of PP you can gain from a map pretty much only starts increasing as you finish 90% of it anyways. It's much easier to assume misses, this way the amount of PP you gain is guaranteed, instead of getting the false hope of getting PP from SSing half of a map then missing a stream or something.


As for this suggestion, I think this is a great idea. It's much more fair to have scores ranked by PP. I'm afraid to play a lot of maps without mods in fear of being unable to beat them on score with mods in the future, so I actually leave a lot of maps in played when I see a scoreboard full of DT's. This addition would be really nice.
Vuelo Eluko

nooblet wrote:

As for this suggestion, I think this is a great idea. It's much more fair to have scores ranked by PP. I'm afraid to play a lot of maps without mods in fear of being unable to beat them on score with mods in the future, so I actually leave a lot of maps in played when I see a scoreboard full of DT's. This addition would be really nice.
at your level would a map with a "scoreboard full of DT's" even be fun without DT? I'm pretty bad but most maps I see with the full DT scoreboard I can at least pass or half-pass. although I do have a lot of no mod fcs on maps like that from many months ago that I wish I didn't have... an easier solution would be to let us delete our scores
Topic Starter
Ohrami

nooblet wrote:

Have you even thought about how you'd even implement this? Like, the whole game up till now has been scored this way, it's not gonna change that easily. How would you deal with the billions of scores set up till now?
Change the score values into their corresponding pp values. I don't see what the problem with this is? That has already been done to give people their overall ranks.
Sea_Food

Full Tablet wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

People on this thread keep using this argument but dont you guys know how much a combo affects pp aswell? Much more than accuracy.
In score, the combo increases the total score quadratically Θ(x^2) (A single combo of 1000 is worth roughly 4 times more score than a single combo of 500), if the combo breaks in a play are distributed evenly through the map, the max combo increases the total score linearly Θ(x) (2 times more total score with 1000 combo than two 500 combos in a map). Accuracy percentage affects the score linearly Θ(x^1) (90% accuracy is about 10% less score than 100% accuracy).

In tp (which is similar to the current pp), during September 2013, the total tp is the sum of Speed, Aim and Accuracy values. With Speed and Aim, the accuracy percentage is a factor of: (100%+Acc%)/2 (So 90%accuracy is worth about 5% less than 100% accuracy for Speed and Aim). With Accuracy, the accuracy percentage increases the value with a growth of Θ(x^24) (90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy). Max Combo in Speed and Aim increases their values with a growth of Θ(x^0.8) (Slightly slower than linearly), and doesn't affect Accuracy.

Overall, accuracy is much more important than max combo in pp, but since the variance of Max Combo is usually higher than the variance of Accuracy between consecutive plays of the same player (it is common to improve the combo from 400 to 900 in two consecutive plays, but getting from 97%acc to SS is harder unless the map is short), the differences of max combo tend to play a bigger role in increasing the amount of pp a map gives.


Lol my top rank gives me 62pp with an 88% acc. I dont quite understand how pp works as i said in previous post that its fucking complicated. But i do seem to still understand much better than you do. Because if what you bullshitted about was true, that would mean getting 100% acc from that song, it would give more than eighty thousand pp.
silmarilen

Sea_Food wrote:

Lol my top rank gives me 62pp with an 88% acc. I dont quite understand how pp works as i said in previous post that its fucking complicated. But i do seem to still understand much better than you do. Because if what you bullshitted about was true, that would mean getting 100% acc from that song, it would give more than eighty thousand pp.
Dexus

silmarilen wrote:

jesse1412
The retardation is absolutely apocalyptic. That post may be the catalyst that starts a real life version of the metro 2033 world.
Sea_Food
Well atleast the thread is now off topic so was worth

Anyway to explain my post I think i was wrong understanding the "sum" part of what full tablet said. I was just focused on
(90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy
Which reversed means
100% accuracy is worth 125 000% more than 90% accuracy.
what ever. the suggestion is still ass
Coffee Hero

Sea_Food wrote:

Well atleast the thread is now off topic so was worth

Anyway to explain my post I think i was wrong understanding the "sum" part of what full tablet said. I was just focused on
(90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy
Which reversed means
100% accuracy is worth 125 000% more than 90% accuracy.
what ever. the suggestion is still ass
if 100% accuracy gave 100pp ~ 90% accuracy would give 0.08pp (keep in mind the pp is also derived from SPEED AND AIM)
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