Guest
home
beatmaps
rankings
community
store
help
forum
  1. Forums
  2. osu!
  3. Development
  4. Feature Requests

Add pp as a scoring system in standard mode

posted
Total Posts
318
This is a feature request. Feature requests can be voted up by supporters.
Current Priority: +2,788
show more
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

dennischan wrote:

What I meant was that since pp is not a good calculation of actual difficulty between maps
It's already being used as a means of comparing people's performances which are based on different maps.

dennischan wrote:

For one, the pp system only considers a score's max combo and accuracy when weighing scores, and that makes the pp system not suitable for weighing scores since it works with too limited information.
I don't even... That's what the score system does.. First of all it considers your combo, if it's not near full your score is pretty much irrelevant automatically, and then it considers accuracy, but your accuracy towards the end matters 100x more than the rest, so plenty times a worse acc score ranks higher than a higher acc one with the same mods and combo.. PP is based on these stats too, but considers a lot more factors making it a lot more representative, how can you even argue against this??

dennischan wrote:

Also did you not know that DT is considered a map changing mod and thus the pp calculator treats the DT-ed map as a new map? This is why what I said do matter, in fact, since DT just boosts up the speed of the map, and does not make the complexity of the map increase. Without pattern recognization, it is inevitable that the DT-ed map would be treated as a very hard map which in reality its not so hard as it seems, since the pattern keeps being simple
Yeah, what else would DT be considered when it changes the map to something which could have been mapped nomod on an other song of the same BPM?
Slapping on a 1,12 multiplier for DT does not judge it better, than objectively using the same algorythm to evaluate the modified map. Yeah patterns are not recognized, that's why pp still needs work as a global ranking but this DOES NOT affect the comparision of scores on the same map at all, if anything PP is a lot better as a per-map ranking system, than a global one yet due to this very fact.

But I think someone already pointed this out, so maybe you should read the thread so things wouldn't have to be explained twice, and you wouldn't keep bringing up arguments which have been refuted plain and simple.

I'm perfectly fine with people having different opinions, if you have reasonable arguments that can't be rendered invalid by merely pointing out objective facts.. That gets pretty tedious.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

dennischan wrote:

Actually although map difficulty is calculated by looking at the whole map, the method of map difficulty calculation is rather simple and cannot be a fair basis for score calculation.

1. There is no pattern recognization.
The pp calculating method simply takes note of the difference between notes and treats it as the so called strain on a map.
Sadly, in the process there is only a simple weighing of the strain and simple addition.
Therfore, DT wiuld be overvalued in the sense that it simply makes easy patterns faster. Hard patterns would be at a disadvantage on this point.
This is why skystar maps and chloe maps are of relatively low rating since their difficulty lies in reading difficulty, not in so called aim.

2. Fast single taps are underrated.
There is no way for our simple pp calculator to distinguish between single taps and streams. Therfore fast single taps are underrated.

3. High SV is underrated.
pp calculations do not take sliders in account. Thus maps which are difficult because of sliders are underrated.
such as Talent Shredder, Strange Program

4. HD and FL are not suitably considered in the program
This ties with what I have said about no pattern recognization. The main difficulty of HD and FL is that they make the map harder to read.
It is not reasonable to put an arbritary multiplier on a map. After pattern recognization is finished, the diifculty of HD and FL can be gauged in a better way.
In this state of pp calculation, using pp as score will be unfair.

I dont deny that pp calculation can be in time, a fair substitue for the score system, but currently it is still a work in process.
I urge people in this thread to see that pp is currently not a suitable system for weighing any scores.
But I am not remotely concerned about this being implemented since it is impossible for our osu community to agree on this issue.
I know that this message might be ignored by people in this thread who only care about DTing Hards, but I hope that you people can check out my points before mindlessly dismissing it.
Fair points indeed. I'll agree that we should wait until the big issues (that are mentioned) are fixed before this is implemented for sure.

xasuma wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

wow. this guy. you're so wrong. it hurts me to read on. every post just hurts me more.
And why would that be, Mr. Jesus ?

You can't just say, "wow so wrong, I can't believe this guy" in an argument. That's not a valid argument.
Your understanding of the bonus from hidden is beyond flawed. If HD gave more than it currently did it would be more rewarding relative to it's difficulty than DT. Maybe 20 pp isn't much in the big picture but for a single score that's A LOT of pp.


I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

jesus1412 wrote:

I do indeed like to read dennischan's posts they're well formed and researched. I honestly can't find many flaws in his arguments other than "the scoring system does that one aspect even worse".
He is right about the PP system's flaws, but he is not right about this having any effect on it being applied as a per-map ranking system instead of score, which does a lot worse job at evaluating different mods and performances. These flaws should have only affected it being applied as a global ranking system that compares performances between different maps, but that has already happened anyway.

Even if let's say with a dance number was so severly underrated that a HR FC SS would be worth only 100 PP, it wouldn't mean any harm to per map rankings, since everyone's performances would be undervalued, and still the best performance would be first (with that 100 pp), etc.
viora_
10 posts
Joined July 2013
viora_

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
blahpy
297 posts
Joined November 2013
blahpy

simplyparanoid wrote:

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
I agree with this.
Yeah this

You might as well just remove HD and FL from the game completely if you wanted to base the scoring on pp (and everyone knows good pp scores are always DT)

I wish there was a way to add sort of negative stars


Tom94 wrote:

I feel like keeping score as a stable base measure is not such a bad thing. Especially with the possibility of mod-specific highscores (no more losing pp by beating your score with mods but worse accuracy) and optionally sorting the top50 pp-wise I don't see any reason why this wouldn't suffice.
^I feel like this is a much, much better idea.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Yarissa
While the ranking system may be flawed and a poor indicator of skill it's much better than what we had before (for instance ppv1). The flaws aren't a huge vice that prevent it from being used the way it is- in fact most players are happy with the system. Anyone who complains about it either just really want to see more progress on the system or just weren't around for the earlier ranking systems. I rarely to never hear top players complain about the system right now. And aside from that, this thread isn't really the right place to discuss the accuracy of pp. While it may aid arguments about whether or not a scoring system like this should be implemented it doesn't really belong here.

My personal opinion on this is that I really think it should be implemented. Tom himself said there are a few things that would need to be addressed (such as pp recalculations and stored replays) but aside from that I think that it is a very sound idea and I can't see many disadvantages to it. Not only that but Tom seems to already have some of his own ideas about implementing it that sound effective.

Anyways this request has my full support and I hope that it does eventually get implemented. It would even warrant you to be more competitive, which I always find as a good thing.

Have all my stars
nocipher
3 posts
Joined January 2013
nocipher
It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.

Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

nocipher wrote:

It is a disservice to advocate for the separation of scoring and pp. They should be very interrelated. In particular, a higher score should always mean more pp. The current implementation is silly. There are many forum posts asking why people lost pp after improving their score. Most of the time the response is to chastise them for not searching before asking such a common question.

Many of these people will be players just starting to be invested enough in osu! to pay attention to ranking. According to Peppy, one of the major goals of the pp overhaul was to encourage progression, but the current system runs counter to that. After you set a decent score on a map, it is in your interest to actually not play that map again until you have improved significantly. Otherwise, you risk disappointment after a few missteps on on otherwise excellent play (for you) leave you a few thousand ranks below your starting point. This does not encourage to keep people playing osu! and fixing it should be made more of a priority.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
Might want to take this discussion here: t/181850
We most likely won't move forward with this before that thread is better figured out.
haha5957
1,433 posts
Joined July 2010
haha5957

jesus1412 wrote:

nocipher wrote:

Goodwork.
Making pp the scoring system would fix everything you posted and your idea that a higher score should always mean higher pp is the worst thing I have ever read and shouldn't be read by anyone else.
Basically both of you have the same opinion : current score system sucks, thus score system needs to be changed (so that highest score/ best score means higher pp) but you are just trying to be offensive

better think before posting
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
This would render scores practically meaningless and that's bad for something that is the focus of a leaderboard. You would have scores in complete random order. It would be such a mess that you might as well just not display score at all, but that would mean there would be no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing.

I don't want this to happen.
Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"pp is considered by many to be a good representation of performance, and thus not random. Because of this, I don't think you should claim it is random or would place scores in random order, at least not without evidence to support your claim. The formulas for how pp works are displayed for all to see on the osu! wiki. No random factors are present in any of those formulas, for any mode, which is strong evidence that your claim is incorrect.

As for there being no meaningful way to calculate performance while playing: I already addressed this in the thread."
Last edited by Tommy Yang , edited 1 time in total.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score. Score will cease to be relevant and so that 7 figure number that racks up when you hit things wont mean anything. If you get a few misses (well actually even a few more 100s will do), might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
Tommy Yang
50 posts
Joined October 2011
Tommy Yang
Posting on behalf of Kyou-kun:
"Again, I'd like evidence to show that your claims are valid. You seem to contradict yourself in this post.

TheVileOne wrote:

It's essentially sorting the scores by accuracy with a secondary weight of combo. This will practically reverse the importance of score.
So accuracy is the most important stat with pp?

TheVileOne wrote:

If you get a few misses, might as well retry because your pp gain will be next to nothing. Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less.
So combo is by far the most important with pp (essentially the same as the scoring system now)?

TheVileOne wrote:

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.
So it's not accuracy or combo, but difficulty that is the most important factor with pp?

So which is it? The fact is that more modded plays with misses will be on the leaderboards with my proposed system than with the current system. Case in point, my 577 combo DT score on this map, which is in my top performances with a value of 237 pp. Were I to go SS that map with nomod (in one try, might I add), my leaderboard rank would increase but my pp would drop drastically. If my proposed system were in place, I'd likely already be in the top 50.

TheVileOne wrote:

Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.
Why would you in the first place? Unless you're trying to abuse the current flaws in the scoring system so you can get an undeserved rank.

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time. Leaderboards are in game as well. PP would have to replace score as an ingame scoring system.
That's sort of the point of this feature request."
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate
Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/154889
For example, on shit like this, the current, well deserved #1 would be toward the end of the scoreboard, despite the fact that Dungeon could have easily gotten an DT+HD SS on it 50+ times on it with the amount of plays he put into it.
For this to happen, there would have to be a lot of work done to pp to more accurately measure the skill required for certain FL scores, because at the current point in time it's extremely underrated, and if this was the new scoring system, FL would totally be broken and would be extremely unfair to current FL pros or people who just want to try really hard to rank high on a map. The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.

Edit: I would think it would be cool to have a separate list you could click on that shows the highest pp plays and the pp that was received on it.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

TheVileOne wrote:

Your modded play with misses will be worth as much pp as No mod scores or even less. Don't even try to go for leaderboard unless you can high accuracy with a given mod or use DT, which tends to be overrated.

Double time scores can make tons of mistakes and still get higher pp than SS with mods. SS ranks will be booted off leaderboards for B rank DT scores.

NixXSkate wrote:

Oh my god no, this won't work at all. ppv2 is sooo bad at accurately measuring the skill required for FL.

The current score system needs change but ppv2 has not evolved enough for it to be the answer.
Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?

It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.

You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Yarissa
587 posts
Joined September 2010
Yarissa
I think that replacing the rankings like that is kinda unfair to the people who farmed the map for FL scores. It invalidates all their time spent memorizing the map because they intentionally wanted to achieve that number one. Flashlight can be more than "just memory" as well, and memorizing maps does actually require some level of skill anyways. This is why there need to be separate leaderboards for a map ranking system like this. Score can stay (it probably will never disappear)

Compromises happen. For example: ppv2 beta.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:

Uhm guys, ppv2 is already the global ranking system? Hello? Why are you talking about it as if it was some kind of half-assed attempt, and not a pretty reliable system? It has flaws but is generally accepted as being a lot more accurate than score. Do you really belive that a DT SS is exactly 1,12x times harder than a nomod SS? And that a score with plenty of 100s at the beginning is worth more than one with a single 100 at the end?

It had been accepted as the global ranking sysytem because it's pretty good already, and pp works especially well when we're talking about comparing scores on the same map, since the algorythm underweighting certain map types has no effect here, unlike on global ranking. Those B rank DT scores already give more PP, and thus contribute more to your global rank than some SS ranks, why should they have a lower place on map leaderboards in that case? If a B rank DT score gave more pp, than more probably than not they were harder to obtain, especially since the pp system doesn't like rewarding "bad performances" such as passes on hard songs with with lots of misses, combobreaks etc.

You keep pointing out it's flaws not realizing how infinitely more flawed the score system is.
Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps. You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed. Part of the current scoring system's beauty is that people can rank higher with sheer determination with the hidden mods, the only problem is that it can be exploited because LIKE ppv2, the FL and HD scoring is totally inaccurate and mostly a percentage increase rather than being determined by the map itself. For a system to replace this one, it would have to give fair reward to both physical and mental skill, but that may ruin the magic of what ppv2 is, raw physical skill.

Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that? It's way too broken if it has that little consideration to the mental challenge added to the map. The score system's problem according to you is that it measures hidden, flashlight, and combos too generously, but ppv2 only measuring physical skill gives extremely little or inaccurate bonus to hidden or flashlight, which I think is even worse. It discourages people to be challenged with these mods, as well. The score and ppv2 system are both important, neither should be used for the other.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

NixXSkate wrote:

You can't just change the scoring system that has been used since the beginning just because a system that may be a bit better just came out, it's still flawed.
Well I guess this is where we disagree, since I believe it's not just a BIT better, but far more accurate, also it would make perfect sense to change it, so the game would have a consistent and unified ranking system, not a separate one for maps and global ranks, especially given that the current system for map ranks (score) is the less accurate one.

NixXSkate wrote:

Ppv2 is great for measuring physical skill, but not mental skill or spinning. Hidden has no effect toward accuracy (only aim), and flashlight gives a similar percentage bonus for aim to all maps, there is no intelligence given in them to reflect accurately the skill they require for different maps.
That's true, but score doesn't measure mental skill any better either, it uses arbitrary multipliers that aren't even in balance. You could bump up the aim modifier of FL in PP aswell. HD does give a minor bonus to acc, that could be increased too if that's deemed more accurate.

NixXSkate wrote:

Also, did you just ignore the point I made about Dungeon's score? Do you have no argument for that?
You ignore every single DT score that is robbed of their rightful Rank1 spot by a nonDT FL score, I think this case is far more common.

Also:


I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki
Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.

EDIT: I lied. It actually would require slightly more aim skill, but the map is exactly the same regardless of whether you put FL on or not, so the point that FL pretty much only requires more patience to get the same score on still stands.
NixXSkate
785 posts
Joined February 2011
NixXSkate

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises. I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
To be honest, the merits of playing FL can be debated to no end, but this is not really relevant to this suggestion, since the value of FL can be adjusted to an accepted amount which is agreed upon in both systems (more easily in pp I believe).

FL is simply a very different mod than the rest. Every other mod, you play them and you build up the skill required to play them, and that skill becomes your permanent ability pretty much (reading HD, playing fast, reading AR10 and 10.3, being accurate). FL on the other hand requires you to build up that skill almost from scratch every time. Sure you get used to the flashing screen and not being able to see much, but you still need to learn every new map. So it's pretty hard to compare it to the rest properly. It does provide a certain kind of challange, but it's definitely not on the same level as improving from nomod level to DT, and I don't think it should be promoted by rewarding it too much, for the reasons stated in my previous post and this one.
Last edited by Drezi , edited 1 time in total.
VoidnOwO
1,256 posts
Joined August 2012
VoidnOwO
:)
Last edited by VoidnOwO , edited 1 time in total.
DT-sama
191 posts
Joined October 2013
DT-sama

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.

Sorry if the explanation is a bit messy.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

DT-sama wrote:

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I'm not sure how you're going to calculate pp as you play in real time.
You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses.
Either that, or you could display the PP you'd recieve if the score was submitted at that time without finishing the song. I know that wouldn't be possible normally, but I think the system could still evaluate it the same way based on combo, number of 300s etc out of the total of the map.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

BRBP wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

Playing FL doesn't require any more skill than no-mod. All it requires is more patience.
I'm dying to hear your definition of skill.
I'm talking about being able to complete the map with a good score.

If you can get a good score with no-mod, you can get a good score with Flashlight. All you need to do is spend up to thousands of tries perfecting it. It doesn't make you more skilled at the game. All it does is prove you can put the time in to manually memorizing the whole map consistently enough to FC it.
Grappemaker
7 posts
Joined September 2013
Grappemaker
I think it's a really interesting suggestion, but in my opinion it's too much of an ideological request rather than being a realistic one.

Surely, it is great to have scoring that is mostly dependant by skill, but scoring as it is now already reflects skill quite a bit. It's indeed a bit flawed since it's too dependent on your performance at specific times rather than overall performance, e.g. hitting a handful of 100's at the end of a big combo will lower your score more than when hitting a handful earlier when your combo is still in the double digits, while overall your performance is still the same. But those flaws are quite minor and if you look at the bigger picture, better scores are harder to achieve than worse scores.

Also, having four different scoreboards for individual stats wouldn't be much of an addition, since they would already be heavily determined by the style of the map itself. Hence the current scoreboard already tells a lot about a player's capabilities if you're interested and motivated enough to look into a player's abilities.

2. If pp were ever to update its calculations, it could affect (possibly significantly) the placement of scores on the leaderboards. However, as far as I know, no significant changes have been made to either tp or pp in a long time, so I don't think this would be too much of an issue.
PP is actually updated quite regularly and not as consistent as score is, considering the scoring algorithm is updated practically never. It's indeed not much of an issue, but it can make scoreboards fluctuate too much and rankings would become less solid and therefore less reliable because the score you set today might change over the course of time.

You assume you're going to SS the map, and start with the maximum pp the map can give you with the active mods. As your accuracy gets worse, it scales down the pp score accordingly, same for misses. As for combo breaks, you subtract your combo from the current highest achievable combo (which is FC at the start of the map), and the pp score considers the highest between the two. Missed slider ends just subtract one from the current highest achievable combo.
It would also have a major impact on gameplay. Right now, as you play the song you can watch your score increase and it can be a satisfying thing to see. Once you get to the point where overall performance starts playing a significant role, you'll get bothered a lot by breaking combos and seeing your shitty accuracy after going ham with 100's on a long stream. Seeing those is already demotivating, and to many of us a reason to hit the retry button for a better attempt right away. Imagining seeing the possible max pp all the time and the only thing it will do is decrease, and you'll constantly have the shitty feeling of not being able to get the highest possible amount of pp when you actually played the song quite well.

The most significant change that this would bring that I am interested in is the fact that your highest pp rewarding score would be taken into account, rather than the score with the highest actual score. Meaning getting a good score with DT when you already have a 99% FC no-mod score, would actually become an interesting thing to do, as right now it would net you absolutely nothing.
Paco
118 posts
Joined December 2013
Paco
I like this.
1+
haxsu
45 posts
Joined August 2011
haxsu

NixXSkate wrote:

Drezi wrote:



I don't think it's off too much, FL bonus needs only a minor buff, and the pp ranking order would be the same as the current one.

But I think the main point of this game is to have fun being able to sightread and play a huge variety of maps, not to sit down and memorize one single map for hours and days. Everyone is better off focusing on improving their universal, overall skill, rather than spending a lot of time to memorise each map in order to rank high on it. So I don't think FL should be the best way of earning top ranks, even if memorisation was actually more demanding (it is not), than the physical skill required for a DT play on the same map.

I guess everyone supporting this idea would be fine with that compromise of having separate leaderboards for both pp and score though.
That picture proves that it's significantly flawed, it's off by a truckload. People who rarely play flashlight fail to understand that flashlight isn't just memorization, it's also practice because it's just such a mental overload. Even if YOU don't think flashlight takes much skill, the fact is it DOES, ESPECIALLY at higher BPMs, fast jumpy maps, and with DT. No player can just casually FL a map even if they know where every note and slider is in a map. We don't think in four dimensions, playing FL takes a lot fast recall and rote memory, which makes focusing on accuracy significantly harder because of the focus you need for aim. Don't even get me started about how calm and collected you have to be with FL as well since it takes so much focus, sometimes I thought I was going to have a heart attack, and none of my FL scores are even that great. I'm sure everyone could agree that with the amount of plays Dungeon put in World's End, he could have HD+DT SSd it multiple times easily. But, with FL he was challenged so much to just combo the thing that he couldn't possibly dedicate so much focus to the accuracy. In terms of maps that are actually challenging in aim and speed, FL is more of a PENALTY or DISADVANTAGE in ppv2.

Also, if a player is playing DT on something, they know what to expect from the leaderboard, nothing is stopping them from adding hidden to beat the HR+HD players. It's not like someone has to rely on some calculation to determine how good they are on a leaderboard, they know exactly what they expect based on how they play and who's on the leaderboard, no surprises.
This by a long shot. Several people fail to understand how hard FL actually is especially at a high BPM with DT. Sorry to say this Drezi but I highly disagree with you. DT+FL should give a lot more pp then HD+DT.

I honestly think a better solution to the problems of the current scoring system is to lower the hidden multiplier to 1.03x or 1.04x, and flashlight to 1.09x or 1.10x, rather than use ppv2 for scoring.
I...really REALLY like this idea. It would make it so that it goes in the order of HD>HR>FL>DT instead of HD=HR>FL=DT. It makes no sense to me that HD is worth the same score multiplier as HR. HR physically changes the map which makes it legitimately more difficult. The CS, AR, OD and HP all multilplies by 1.4 when HR mod is enabled while HD mod remains unchanged. Only real difference with HD is that now you have to aim each note a little bit better since each note becomes invisible after a while. Changing HD multiplier down to 1.03x or 1.04x would make a lot more sense to me while HR should remain unchanged. As for FL, I believe that it should NOT beat DT however it should definitely beat HD (by itself) and HR (by itself). I believe that changing FL to 1.09x or 1.10x would make more sense to me. This will make it so that HD+HR would be worth just slightly more then FL alone (if acc is good enough) and make it so that DT by itself beats HD+HR (if acc is good enough). This would also make it so that HD+DT+HR would be worth just slightly more then HD+DT+FL which is good seeing that HR makes everything harder to time. This would balance out the scoring system a lot better in my opinion.

I will admit, I was originally all for the idea of making ppv2 as the new scoring system but then I look into it deeply and realized that doing this would not be such a great idea due to the fact that ppv2 has not fully evolved enough for it to become the new scoring stream as well as FL being so under capped in comparison to the other mods. It makes absolutely no sense that HD+DT gives much more pp then DT+FL for example. PPv2 focuses mainly on pure physical skill and very little of mental skill. There needs to be a good enough balance between the two before I can accept this.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Dennischan said all I wanted to say.

ppv2 might be more accurate for a majority of the playerbase, but there are still exceptions. It's not perfect and certainly far from being absolute because it can be changed towards perfection. Scoring is at least an absolute system, because it never changes.

The solution is to incorporate an absolute component into ppv2, so that pattern recognition and memory recall ability can be accurately accounted for in future revisions to the system, allowing it to be worked towards perfection at no cost to the players scores/replays which would otherwise disappear without a trace.

Tom94 wrote:

There is still the one issue of overwriting a score with another one that gives less pp, but that would be mostly eliminated by per-mod highscores. The cases where you beat your score but lose pp would almost completely cease to exist,
Will support if per-mod high scores and replays are implemented, to avoid top50 replay problems upon changes to the system, and allow people to sift through potentially great scores not being rewarded as they should, and bring them to attention.

Legacy for viewing score ranks could stick around for a while as people adjust to it and replay data is gathered. It would also serve well for testing purposes, especially since we've only ever seen TP top scores (which only gathered data from the top50). We may be surprised to discover what kind of scores get accepted into the top50 over others, and whether they are actually more terrible than we had first imagined. It's never been tested publicly on this scale, the feedback would be very important and probably better to start sooner than later.
Xantaria
274 posts
Joined July 2013
Xantaria
I think this is the way to go. Score doesn't even matter in osu!. So why would you want to sort ranks by score anyways.
Ace3DF
160 posts
Joined June 2012
Ace3DF
HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
lightlance7
17 posts
Joined November 2012
lightlance7
I don't think this is fair to the HDHR and FL players.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
I don't even care if this gets implemented or not anymore. Just fix what it says in my signature .. You can't have people afraid of playing the game.
Kaeru
302 posts
Joined February 2013
Kaeru

CalignoBot wrote:

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.
This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami

Kaeru wrote:

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.
So apparently constant variation for a more accurate and precise system is worse than an old system that sucks but never changes. Imagine if all the scientists and inventors of the world thought that way.

Your last sentence is basically an admission that score is, in fact, an inaccurate system. Otherwise, why would you ever want to replace a higher score with a lower score? If it was accurate, then the best play would get the highest score.
CXu
osu! Alumni
3,560 posts
Joined March 2009
CXu
Anyone who has never played FL seriously should not talk about the skills required to play FL.
Ace3DF
160 posts
Joined June 2012
Ace3DF
You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
That's not how it works, and even if it was, it isn't really relevant to my request.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.
Yes.

On your hard difficulties. Try checking out some really difficult maps with dt, you know the ones that are the fastest maps possible in the game and all. All that free pp for playing the fastest maps with the biggest jumps oh how terrible.
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.

Kaeru wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.
Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.
I was actually referring to the score ranking system when I said "current scoring system", not the ppv2 system.
Seto Kousuke
osu! Alumni
610 posts
Joined June 2013
Seto Kousuke

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.
^
Kittles
68 posts
Joined April 2014
Kittles
This would just defeat the purpose of osu...
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
Kittles
68 posts
Joined April 2014
Kittles

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

pied wrote:

The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score.
Yeah, that's what you do with pp aswell, or do we need to multiply it by 1,000,000 to make it seem 'high'?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

pied wrote:

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.
The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.
That's exactly how pp works...
[WP]
324 posts
Joined January 2013
[WP]
i think mania scoring system is a better idea

imo
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami

[WP] wrote:

i think mania scoring system is a better idea

imo
hell no
bomber34
1,529 posts
Joined February 2011
bomber34
as a casual player I really don't care if this changes. More accurate ranking sounds nice (since most people aren't able to get into the top 50 anyway why should they care)

I especially see no reason against this if we can still have the score system as an alternaitve. We already have mod-specific, country, friends ranking.
I know it adds a lot to the database but with that I simply see no reason why anyone would care.

About the pp changes ... I don't know. I rarely watch replays so it wouldn't effect me and I don't know who really wants to watch some #25 or below on a map when most people use the same mods anyway.
Defacer
131 posts
Joined October 2011
Defacer
Just add a scoreboard based on pp next to the existing score one, even if it's just for testing purposes.Many replays won't exist but it's just about bringing attention to actually good scores that remain completely unnoticed.To all the people who cannot realize what I am saying->It's not only sayonara-bye who is #1 on everything with DTHD, there are many many players being able to do maps like him, maybe without hd, maybe without such accuracy but still deserve respect for it.That way, you will all learn about great players that are right now underrated.

I don't understand what's this big argument all about, what's wrong with addition of a scoreboard based on what actually makes up our ranks?
Kittles
68 posts
Joined April 2014
Kittles
So basically spinners would also be removed, since they dont affect pp. oh yeah take out combos too since everyone will just be going for fc and ss anyways
Amianki
85 posts
Joined January 2011
Amianki

pied wrote:

So basically spinners would also be removed, since they dont affect pp. oh yeah take out combos too since everyone will just be going for fc and ss anyways
Slippery slope fallacy.
LexiaLovesU
822 posts
Joined June 2012
LexiaLovesU

dennischan wrote:

pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.

I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.

maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.

ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)
You obviously never played DT in insanes before ._. FL is just Retry Spam(not really hard just need paitence) while in DT you actually need skill to hit the notes
Kittles
68 posts
Joined April 2014
Kittles
Since the whole argument seems about mods, why not just buff dt multiplier or nerf fl or hd?
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Defacer wrote:

Just add a scoreboard based on pp next to the existing score one, even if it's just for testing purposes.Many replays won't exist but it's just about bringing attention to actually good scores that remain completely unnoticed.To all the people who cannot realize what I am saying->It's not only sayonara-bye who is #1 on everything with DTHD, there are many many players being able to do maps like him, maybe without hd, maybe without such accuracy but still deserve respect for it.That way, you will all learn about great players that are right now underrated.

I don't understand what's this big argument all about, what's wrong with addition of a scoreboard based on what actually makes up our ranks?
i like this idea better, jesus has a thread on it already to have a "pp scoreboard" as a supporter feature alongside country/friend rankings, and its much more reasonable than ousting score completely
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami
I'd be fine with having both scoreboards, as long as the highest score to each are saved (along with the replay), and we can set which one to view by default.

pied wrote:

Since the whole argument seems about mods, why not just buff dt multiplier or nerf fl or hd?
Because this comes up so often, I've updated the OP with the reasons why it can't work.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

An another board such a ppboard could be nice, but only with the existing one, like an option that we can switch which board we want to see.

No votes given for this request but I'm not totally againts tho.
Dexem
51 posts
Joined November 2012
Dexem
Can this be a thing?
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

An another board such a ppboard could be nice, but only with the existing one, like an option that we can switch which board we want to see.

No votes given for this request but I'm not totally againts tho.
pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.
Green Platinum
2,660 posts
Joined July 2011
Green Platinum
I'm currently unconvinced.
My major issue is players who are new are going to be completely confused by a leaderboard completely alien from anything to their own scores. I know there is a wealth of information available on the wiki but the truth is few new players read it and I run into plenty that don't know about pp, it needs to be more prominently visible and because it can't be displayed mid map few may actually realise what effects it's value. Additionally while this may work on difficult maps with a large range of pp values I can only imagine extremely easy songs having the same value throughout the whole top 50.

Also what about local leaderboards I believe that pp is calculated online so what happens to unranked and offline plays?

I do support an option to sort by pp or simply just have it displayed on the end map score screen. I'd love to see the Auto's pp from an all mod for Big Black etc.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

Green Platinum wrote:

My major issue is players who are new are going to be completely confused by a leaderboard completely alien from anything to their own scores.
If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
What type of score a score on a scoreboard is ?
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
PP isn't really something that can be calculated as you progress through a song...
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Bauxe wrote:

PP isn't really something that can be calculated as you progress through a song...
Not true, there are viable suggestions, read back.

MiniTokki wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.
What type of score a score on a scoreboard is ?
This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
This guy ? I do not allow you to take that tone. You can't argue people just because you don't see their point.

In osu!, there notes and combo, which give you a score, this is how the game work.
No matter how fast / blindfolded / with your head you hit the notes, you just need to be in rythm, this is a rythmic game.
This is the basis rules to get a score in the game.

PP are totally different, I don't know how to spell it (my english suck) but basically, they are not basis rules, they are implemented by our own judgement on how much is difficult to hit a note. This is totally subjective so totally different imo.

That lost what the game is.

So it's why, I think, PP can't be a scoreboard.
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 1 time in total.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami
Because the current score system clearly isn't arbitrary what with how it multiplies your score based on combo, how 100s are worth 1/3 the points of a 300 and 50s worth 1/6, how misses/sliderbreaks end your combo but not 100s or 50s, how the mods multiply score by completely arbitrary numbers...

Yes, I'm sure that pp, something most people agree is relatively good at judging the difficulty of beatmaps and plays, which it does through looking at actual beatmap heuristics such as spacing, how fast you have to hit notes, how long the map is, OD, etc. is a far more arbitrary system.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.
This guy ? I do not allow you to take that tone. You can't argue people just because you don't see their point.

In osu!, there notes and combo, which give you a score, this is how the game work.
No matter how fast / blindfolded / with your head you hit the notes, you just need to be in rythm, this is a rythmic game.
This is the basis rules to get a score in the game.

PP are totally different, I don't know how to spell it (my english suck) but basically, they are not basis rules, they are implemented by our own judgement on how much is difficult to hit a note. This is totally subjective so totally different imo.

That lost what the game is.

So it's why, I think, PP can't be a scoreboard.
Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
Are you for real ?

Where the fuck a spoke about if PP was well balanced or not ?
Even if it was a good system or not ?

Those people who reply to look cool and funny but are not able to read properly ahah.

Why people has to be so bitter on internet ?
Last edited by ARRACHEZ VOUS , edited 8 times in total.
Ritzeh
Former osu! Champion: 2016
283 posts
Joined August 2011
Ritzeh
If this does get implemented, there should be decimals in the score. ex: 150.111 pp
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.
Are you for real ?

Where the fuck a spoke about if PP was well balanced or not ?
Even if it was a good system or not ?

Those people who reply to look cool and funny but are not able to read properly ahah.

Why people has to be so bitter on internet ?
Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
CelegaS
484 posts
Joined April 2012
CelegaS
Osu is an arcade-like game so performance don't matter, only score is important. Too much people don't understand that and are focused on pp.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
Bauxe
1,624 posts
Joined August 2012
Bauxe

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
So you want the new players spamming threads about how they got 1 point on a map?
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Bauxe wrote:

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".
So you want the new players spamming threads about how they got 1 point on a map?
They could scale the pp number up by a certain value for display (for example, scale by 1,000 it so ~1pp becomes 1,241), or show decimals (the amount of pp of a play already has decimal value, it is just rounded for display).
Dexus
982 posts
Joined July 2009
Dexus
Bauxe: you made me think this up t/225131
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
This is 100% subjective since that PP system and that idea of skills was implemented in addition on the basis game.

I think you misunderstand what the game is (or was) and what we want it to become.

Even in term of skills (term subjective...), the PP system is not objective.
If it was, it would be perfect but that not the case. I think Tom94 and peppy are working on it yet.
But if it was objective why on earth we would change it ?
You said it yourself, if objective, we can't denny.

It's called balance. We look at the system subjectively and try to make it objective.
Ace3DF
160 posts
Joined June 2012
Ace3DF
It would make every scoreboard on easy - hard maps irelavent seeing how all the top scores will be HDHRDTFLPF.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.
This is 100% subjective since that PP system and that idea of skills was implemented in addition on the basis game.

I think you misunderstand what the game is (or was) and what we want it to become.

Even in term of skills (term subjective...), the PP system is not objective.
If it was, it would be perfect but that not the case. I think Tom94 and peppy are working on it yet.
But if it was objective why on earth we would change it ?
You said it yourself, if objective, we can't denny.

It's called balance. We look at the system subjectively and try to make it objective.
It objectively places the good players at the top. If you disagree with this then you must be delusional. Maybe the order isn't perfect but it certainly does sort the best from the good from the bad.

Ace3DF wrote:

It would make every scoreboard on easy - hard maps irelavent seeing how all the top scores will be HDHRDTFLPF.
Just like the current system wow!

CelegaS wrote:

Osu is an arcade-like game so performance don't matter, only score is important. Too much people don't understand that and are focused on pp.
pp = score in this proposal, "Too much people don't understand that and are focused on [the old scoring system]."
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Sea_Food
I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that

"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."

I love that there is the pp system in this game and it definetly is better for overall player ranking than the old ranked score was. But when you are playing the map, your progress should be shown as a simple score system. Why? Because literally every game and video game ever has it that way, no reason for osu! to be some kind of weird thing that is too complicatedm

Also lol at complaining that hdhr and fl give too much score compared to dt. Alot of top scores use the dt mod, way more are there dt than fl. And if you still think that is a problem, how about just increase the dt multiplier insted of change whole system?


Dexus wrote:

Bauxe: you made me think this up http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/225131
Bauxe you monster
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
Vuelo Eluko
5,484 posts
Joined October 2013
Vuelo Eluko

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
its not like a pp scoring system avoids the issue. if you could see a live number showing how much pp the play is worth while the map is being played [impossible for more reasons then i want to get into but bare with me] the number would barely move until you get past the halfway point in the song,and it would just go up faster from there.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

if you could see a live number showing how much pp the play is worth while the map is being played [impossible for more reasons then i want to get into but bare with me]
Acutally this hasn't been confirmed/denied by Tom, and I'm not really convinced that you're an expert regarding the technical possibilities/limitations here, but if you are, please do elaborate. It's a rather important issue and it would be silly to drop the subject just because someone claimed it to be impossible.
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Sea_Food

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."
Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.
Ok i admit that the current scoring system is more complicated than in football, but for a video game its okay. Its not nearly as complicated as you make it sound. I actually think that score per note should be:

hit value*combo*mode multipliers

Its actually a little different
Score = Hit Value + Hit Value * (Combo multiplier * Difficulty multiplier * Mod multiplier) / 25
But its still pretty simple and actually in a sense the same as the one i think it should be.


Also the reason i dont quite mania is because there the score is calculated this way:



I think i red that through 10 times and I still dont quite understand it. Clearly the most complicated score calculation system I have ever seen in my life. And pp calculation is even more complicated. If this threads suggestion went through, they could change the osu! slogan to "rythm and formulas that you wont understand."
D e s
295 posts
Joined August 2013
D e s
Why not both? then we will have 2 global ranking
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

Sea_Food wrote:

I think i red that through 10 times and I still dont quite understand it. Clearly the most complicated score calculation system I have ever seen in my life. And pp calculation is even more complicated. If this threads suggestion went through, they could change the osu! slogan to "rythm and formulas that you wont understand."
you just need to play well. you don't need to understand the formulas (only to the point that combo and accuracy are the main factors).
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

jesus1412 wrote:

It objectively places the good players at the top. If you disagree with this then you must be delusional. Maybe the order isn't perfect but it certainly does sort the best from the good from the bad.
Nah, you still don't get the point.

There is a game, with his rules, they are objective, it's what the game is.
There is a scoreboard based on it, he's objective too.
That scoreboard do not pretend to rank skills or anything, just the score with his rules.

If you want to replace scoreboard, add more rules, this will not be the same game.
Everything that you can add gonna be subjective.

Yes, PP places objectively the good players at the top, but that concept don't even exist in the game.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi

MiniTokki wrote:

Nah, you still don't get the point.

There is a game, with his rules, they are objective, it's what the game is.
There is a scoreboard based on it, he's objective too.
Yes, my friend there is a certain ruleset and a scoreboard based on it, and why would you believe that it's of divine origin, and changing that ruleset to a better one ruins the game? How can you say it's objective, when it's an arbitrarily chosen ruleset, just like pp. But objectively pp does a pretty good job at placing better plays higher.
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS

Drezi wrote:

Yes, my friend there is a certain ruleset and a scoreboard based on it, and why would you believe that it's of divine origin, and changing that ruleset to a better one ruins the game? How can you say it's objective, when it's an arbitrarily chosen ruleset, just like pp. But objectively pp does a pretty good job at placing better plays higher.
I'm not a believer so this is certainly not a divine origin, just some game developers I guess...

And sorry to tell you that, but yes, when you create a game with rulesset, they are objective. They make what your game is and how you wanted it to become. We can all allow playing with our hands in football but this is not gonna be football anymore. And I didn't say that will ruins (make it bad or something, it does not matter here), I say that gonna change the purpose of the game.

You just misunderstand what the game is, what the devs wanted, what the score does and what we want with PP.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
wtf is up with all the horrible football analogies. please use some logic.

this game is about clicking on circles to rythm, and the way you're scored has absolutely nothing to do with this gameplay, and can be changed for the better...
ARRACHEZ VOUS
99 posts
Joined July 2008
ARRACHEZ VOUS
At least, using analogies is a sort of arguments. Arguments, something that all your post are missing.

Reads some books, things are not that simple.

But above all, when you want to discuss with someone, make sure to read what they write.
Drezi
217 posts
Joined January 2014
Drezi
I give up. :cry:
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami
The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Tom94
This whole discussion about objective vs. subjective is completely pointless imho. Both the current scoring system and pp are objective in the sense that a computer rates scores based on rock-solid algorithms. At the same time both the scoring system and pp try to objectively rate a score as close as possible to the general subjective meaning of skill the community has.

Showing pp while playing would not be a very good idea I think. The system would have to make assumptions about the rest of the score which has not been played yet.

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Sea_Food

Kyou-kun wrote:

The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.
Excuse me that my analogy was not 100% accurate, but my point was that the base score system should be kept simple. As it is done everywhere else.
Ohrami
685 posts
Joined March 2010
Topic Starter
Ohrami
But the problem is that you can't accurately judge skill based on simple score system in osu!, because of the fact that there are so many different levels which require different skills, while you can accurately judge skill based on a simple score system in football, because there's only one "level", and it always requires the same set of skills to master it.
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412
Football skill is much more like ppv1. Football can ONLY be measured relative to other players and it's a pretty stupid argument. The limit in performance in football is relative to the limit in opposition to test against. osu! has no limit hence why it's completely different. Still I prefer pp to score.
xasuma
The First Completionist
1,011 posts
Joined August 2013
xasuma
o_0
Sea_Food
484 posts
Joined September 2012
Sea_Food

Kyou-kun wrote:

But the problem is that you can't accurately judge skill based on simple score system in osu!, because of the fact that there are so many different levels which require different skills, while you can accurately judge skill based on a simple score system in football, because there's only one "level", and it always requires the same set of skills to master it.
What am I even reading. Well i wont give a deeper opinion on that because i really dont think its relevant to the suggestion.
show more
Please sign in to reply.

New reply

0
95 / 318