Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.

CalignoBot wrote:

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.

This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.

Kaeru wrote:

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.

Ace3DF wrote:

You can do all of this anyways if you're a supporter.
Step 1: Open osu!
Step 2: Go to a song
Step 3: Put on DT (/HD)
Step 4: Change leaderboards to Global (selected mods)
Step 5: Enjoy your stay at pp city.

Ace3DF wrote:

HRHD would become more pointless and DT mashing would be happening everywhere.

Kaeru wrote:

CalignoBot wrote:

This hasn't happened with the current scoring system so it won't happen in the new one either.

Yes, it pretty much has, actually. While still more accurate than ppv1, ppv2 is far from perfect. And I mean very far. Star difficulty is still calculated poorly, DT is still weighted too much on some songs (not all songs) and FL really is fine where it is. I really don't see why FL should be touched.

Why do people have a problem with the score system? It's the best system. It's a constant system. It never changes. Performance points will constantly vary as the calculations become more accurate. Score never has to change, nor should it ever change. I really would like to see a way to replace plays with higher pp plays (or delete records, maybe a supporter only feature) but this is really not a solution.

And as Grappemaker said, displaying the pp in the top right instead of score is pretty much the most horrid idea I've ever heard of. People will just download a map, throw DT on it and if the little pp indicator in the top right isn't some absurd amount of pp that the map is definitely not worth, well you can guess what happens then. Delete it and move on to the next map to mash buttons on.

Ziggo wrote:

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.

pied wrote:

The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score.

pied wrote:

Drezi wrote:

oh PLEASE, how is that so, care to elaborate? it makes my head hurt that people just come here commenting stuff like these, based on zero thought given.

The whole point of rhythm games in general is to build up combos and get a high score. I think it would be a good idea to show pp next to a given score but pp should never replace the standard score system nor should it have priority over it.

[WP] wrote:

i think mania scoring system is a better idea

imo

pied wrote:

So basically spinners would also be removed, since they dont affect pp. oh yeah take out combos too since everyone will just be going for fc and ss anyways

dennischan wrote:

pp is far too inaccurate for anything like this.
it only considers max combo and acc, which are not sufficent for any case of score calculation.
there is no pattern recognization or anything that could determine the skill of a player accurately.

I think you are getting to hyped up over a system which is not operational.
Before per hitobject data can be provided,
it is simply nonsense to base scores on it.

maybe this should be implemented, but in the far future after pp is fully functional and gives accurate scoring.
then we can talk about this.

ps:FL is much harder than DT. DT is just high speed spamming. (excluding sayo's plays)

Defacer wrote:

Just add a scoreboard based on pp next to the existing score one, even if it's just for testing purposes.Many replays won't exist but it's just about bringing attention to actually good scores that remain completely unnoticed.To all the people who cannot realize what I am saying->It's not only sayonara-bye who is #1 on everything with DTHD, there are many many players being able to do maps like him, maybe without hd, maybe without such accuracy but still deserve respect for it.That way, you will all learn about great players that are right now underrated.

I don't understand what's this big argument all about, what's wrong with addition of a scoreboard based on what actually makes up our ranks?

pied wrote:

Since the whole argument seems about mods, why not just buff dt multiplier or nerf fl or hd?

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

An another board such a ppboard could be nice, but only with the existing one, like an option that we can switch which board we want to see.

No votes given for this request but I'm not totally againts tho.

MiniTokki wrote:

A scoreboard pp based cannot be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard need to be score based to be a scoreboard.
A scoreboard is nice in a game with score, that would be stupid to remove it imo.

Green Platinum wrote:

My major issue is players who are new are going to be completely confused by a leaderboard completely alien from anything to their own scores.

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.

Bauxe wrote:

PP isn't really something that can be calculated as you progress through a song...

MiniTokki wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

pp is a type of score. I don't really care if both are implemented, as long as your highest score for both "score" and "pp" are saved.

Drezi wrote:

If this was fully implemented PP would be score, it would replace score. What's so hard to grasp about this.

What type of score a score on a scoreboard is ?

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.

MiniTokki wrote:

Drezi wrote:

This guy... I really do hope that you're trolling.

This guy ? I do not allow you to take that tone. You can't argue people just because you don't see their point.

In osu!, there notes and combo, which give you a score, this is how the game work.
No matter how fast / blindfolded / with your head you hit the notes, you just need to be in rythm, this is a rythmic game.
This is the basis rules to get a score in the game.

PP are totally different, I don't know how to spell it (my english suck) but basically, they are not basis rules, they are implemented by our own judgement on how much is difficult to hit a note. This is totally subjective so totally different imo.

That lost what the game is.

So it's why, I think, PP can't be a scoreboard.

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Alright you can go ahead and subjectively think that drangonhuman and rrtyui and all the other current top players are shit because this system is so obviously subjective.

Are you for real ?

Where the fuck a spoke about if PP was well balanced or not ?
Even if it was a good system or not ?

Those people who reply to look cool and funny but are not able to read properly ahah.

Why people has to be so bitter on internet ?

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".

Bauxe wrote:

Drezi wrote:

Why can't you understand that pp can become the new SCORE? Is it THAT hard of a concept? What makes the current number displayed after your play more scorish than the displayed value of pp? They're both numbers, one holding more meaning...

You're like "oh no pp bad, score good, you no understand ;_;" but you fail to see how score is just an arbitrary number, you admire it blindly just because right now that's the number named "score".

So you want the new players spamming threads about how they got 1 point on a map?

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.

MiniTokki wrote:

jesus1412 wrote:

Why argue it's subjective when pp is clearly awarding based on skill rather objectively. Neither of us can deny these players are good, if the system was subjective then there would be people who would disagree.

This is 100% subjective since that PP system and that idea of skills was implemented in addition on the basis game.

I think you misunderstand what the game is (or was) and what we want it to become.

Even in term of skills (term subjective...), the PP system is not objective.
If it was, it would be perfect but that not the case. I think Tom94 and peppy are working on it yet.
But if it was objective why on earth we would change it ?
You said it yourself, if objective, we can't denny.

It's called balance. We look at the system subjectively and try to make it objective.

Ace3DF wrote:

It would make every scoreboard on easy - hard maps irelavent seeing how all the top scores will be HDHRDTFLPF.

CelegaS wrote:

Osu is an arcade-like game so performance don't matter, only score is important. Too much people don't understand that and are focused on pp.

Dexus wrote:

Bauxe: you made me think this up http://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/225131

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."

Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

if you could see a live number showing how much pp the play is worth while the map is being played [impossible for more reasons then i want to get into but bare with me]

Drezi wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

I really dont like this idea because pp is way too complicated to be a scoring system. This is like if someone in football made a suggestion that
"The team with most goals should not win, because they are not necersary the team that really played better in my opinion. The team that has the best performance counting in ball posession, passes, hairstyle AND goals (+other stuff) should win."

Completely flawed argument, the play of football players is centered around scoring goals, their whole strategy and training revolves around it, so obviously goals matter.

In osu it's not that straightwordard, there's no single simple and clearly defined goal other than generally playing well, maintaining a good combo AND accuracy at the same time, and score isn't straightforward either with 7 digit scores and the combo multiplier etc.
If anything the football analogy would be "goals near the end of the game are worth 10x more" lol.

Score = Hit Value + Hit Value * (Combo multiplier * Difficulty multiplier * Mod multiplier) / 25

Sea_Food wrote:

I think i red that through 10 times and I still dont quite understand it. Clearly the most complicated score calculation system I have ever seen in my life. And pp calculation is even more complicated. If this threads suggestion went through, they could change the osu! slogan to "rythm and formulas that you wont understand."

jesus1412 wrote:

It objectively places the good players at the top. If you disagree with this then you must be delusional. Maybe the order isn't perfect but it certainly does sort the best from the good from the bad.

MiniTokki wrote:

Nah, you still don't get the point.

There is a game, with his rules, they are objective, it's what the game is.
There is a scoreboard based on it, he's objective too.

Drezi wrote:

Yes, my friend there is a certain ruleset and a scoreboard based on it, and why would you believe that it's of divine origin, and changing that ruleset to a better one ruins the game? How can you say it's objective, when it's an arbitrarily chosen ruleset, just like pp. But objectively pp does a pretty good job at placing better plays higher.

Kyou-kun wrote:

The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.

Kyou-kun wrote:

But the problem is that you can't accurately judge skill based on simple score system in osu!, because of the fact that there are so many different levels which require different skills, while you can accurately judge skill based on a simple score system in football, because there's only one "level", and it always requires the same set of skills to master it.

Tom94 wrote:

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.

Drezi wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

If it assumed 300s for the rest of the score, then the displayed pp would only go down and your goal would be to have it go down as little as possible.

On the other hand if it assumed misses for the rest of the score, then it would only start showing values above 0 near the end of the map since misses currently reduce pp by quite a lot.

And what about the thing I suggested - the rest of the map being counted as neither misses nor 300s, but null (same as if you missed the rest of the map, but without the miss penalty for the not yet played objects)?

Tom94 wrote:

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.

silmarilen wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

The last option would be to disregard the remainder of the map and only compute pp for the existing part just like accuracy works. This would likely not be possible without making the game lag, because the difficulty of the beatmap would have to be computed up to every existing hitobject once.

Sea_Food wrote:

Kyou-kun wrote:

The football analogies don't work for the simple reason that the objective is literally just score goals. Nothing else matters in football. There are rules about how you can use the ball, how many players can be on a team, and what they can do, but the gameplay is literally focused on scoring goals, which in turn scores points. In osu!, the objective is hit all objects as accurately as possible. Hitting the hit objects will, in turn, score you points. However, the method by which these points is given can vary wildly without the gameplay changing at all. In football, you can't change how points are distributed without completely changing how the game is played.

Excuse me that my analogy was not 100% accurate, but my point was that the base score system should be kept simple. As it is done everywhere else.

haha5957 wrote:

PP doesn't necessarily have to be exactly converted to score. The problem we have right now is that "highscore doesn't mean high pp".

Seems like accuracy change during game is making the problem. Well, I'm not 100% sure how pp works, but I believe Accuracy score and Combo scores are seperated (according to reddit pp analyse.)

Then just make Accuracy as an Bonus score after play, just like how Jubeat and DJMax technika does.


Here's an idea :

1) Make every object has the same basic score. If you hit the object regardless of how accurate you were, you get (let's say) 500 score every object.
2) Seems like combo scores are dependant on the maximum combo you achieved on the map. Every maxcombo you achieve, you get extra score. (for example, you get 500 for every note, and another 500 for your combo score. after you miss, you won't get that extra 500 untill you reach your last maximum combo)
3) If there are any modifiers for # of 50 or 100 or miss, just have them sum up to the bonus score that will be given after the play with the accuracy bonus score.



Since accuracy constantly changes(and most likely to drop after you miss or 100) it would be weird to be counted realtime. However using bonus score can possibly solve this and make score directly reflect PP

pros everything


cons you can't accurately tell if it will beat your highscore or not before you finish the play (However I do think this should be encouraged)

Dexus wrote:

The game is dependant on combo and accuracy; yet the reward for accuracy is greatly diminished when combo isnt maximized; the opposite way accuracy can be poor and the combo can be maximized. Thr player with a full combo and way less accuracy shluldnt be rewarded more than a person with really good accuracy and a ranfom miss. The fact a miss means a useless play is only because of the scoring system in its current state. If we switched to pp based ranking then those amaxing plays with a minor miss wouldnt be completely useless

Sea_Food wrote:

Dexus wrote:

The game is dependant on combo and accuracy; yet the reward for accuracy is greatly diminished when combo isnt maximized; the opposite way accuracy can be poor and the combo can be maximized. Thr player with a full combo and way less accuracy shluldnt be rewarded more than a person with really good accuracy and a ranfom miss. The fact a miss means a useless play is only because of the scoring system in its current state. If we switched to pp based ranking then those amaxing plays with a minor miss wouldnt be completely useless

People on this thread keep using this argument but dont you guys know how much a combo affects pp aswell? Much more than accuracy.

haha5957 wrote:

PP doesn't necessarily have to be exactly converted to score. The problem we have right now is that "highscore doesn't mean high pp".

Seems like accuracy change during game is making the problem. Well, I'm not 100% sure how pp works, but I believe Accuracy score and Combo scores are seperated (according to reddit pp analyse.)

Then just make Accuracy as an Bonus score after play, just like how Jubeat and DJMax technika does.


Here's an idea :

1) Make every object has the same basic score. If you hit the object regardless of how accurate you were, you get (let's say) 500 score every object.
2) Seems like combo scores are dependant on the maximum combo you achieved on the map. Every maxcombo you achieve, you get extra score. (for example, you get 500 for every note, and another 500 for your combo score. after you miss, you won't get that extra 500 untill you reach your last maximum combo)
3) If there are any modifiers for # of 50 or 100 or miss, just have them sum up to the bonus score that will be given after the play with the accuracy bonus score.



Since accuracy constantly changes(and most likely to drop after you miss or 100) it would be weird to be counted realtime. However using bonus score can possibly solve this and make score directly reflect PP

pros everything


cons you can't accurately tell if it will beat your highscore or not before you finish the play (However I do think this should be encouraged)

Drezi wrote:

yeah, as Bassist Vinyl said, what I mentioned is not the same as recalculating the map as a whole after every note, c'mon i can read what Tom posted just fine lol.

nooblet wrote:

As for this suggestion, I think this is a great idea. It's much more fair to have scores ranked by PP. I'm afraid to play a lot of maps without mods in fear of being unable to beat them on score with mods in the future, so I actually leave a lot of maps in played when I see a scoreboard full of DT's. This addition would be really nice.

nooblet wrote:

Have you even thought about how you'd even implement this? Like, the whole game up till now has been scored this way, it's not gonna change that easily. How would you deal with the billions of scores set up till now?

Full Tablet wrote:

Sea_Food wrote:

People on this thread keep using this argument but dont you guys know how much a combo affects pp aswell? Much more than accuracy.

In score, the combo increases the total score quadratically Θ(x^2) (A single combo of 1000 is worth roughly 4 times more score than a single combo of 500), if the combo breaks in a play are distributed evenly through the map, the max combo increases the total score linearly Θ(x) (2 times more total score with 1000 combo than two 500 combos in a map). Accuracy percentage affects the score linearly Θ(x^1) (90% accuracy is about 10% less score than 100% accuracy).

In tp (which is similar to the current pp), during September 2013, the total tp is the sum of Speed, Aim and Accuracy values. With Speed and Aim, the accuracy percentage is a factor of: (100%+Acc%)/2 (So 90%accuracy is worth about 5% less than 100% accuracy for Speed and Aim). With Accuracy, the accuracy percentage increases the value with a growth of Θ(x^24) (90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy). Max Combo in Speed and Aim increases their values with a growth of Θ(x^0.8) (Slightly slower than linearly), and doesn't affect Accuracy.

Overall, accuracy is much more important than max combo in pp, but since the variance of Max Combo is usually higher than the variance of Accuracy between consecutive plays of the same player (it is common to improve the combo from 400 to 900 in two consecutive plays, but getting from 97%acc to SS is harder unless the map is short), the differences of max combo tend to play a bigger role in increasing the amount of pp a map gives.

Sea_Food wrote:

Lol my top rank gives me 62pp with an 88% acc. I dont quite understand how pp works as i said in previous post that its fucking complicated. But i do seem to still understand much better than you do. Because if what you bullshitted about was true, that would mean getting 100% acc from that song, it would give more than eighty thousand pp.

silmarilen wrote:

(90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy

100% accuracy is worth 125 000% more than 90% accuracy.

Sea_Food wrote:

Well atleast the thread is now off topic so was worth

Anyway to explain my post I think i was wrong understanding the "sum" part of what full tablet said. I was just focused on

(90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy

Which reversed means

100% accuracy is worth 125 000% more than 90% accuracy.

what ever. the suggestion is still ass

Sea_Food wrote:

Lol my top rank gives me 62pp with an 88% acc. I dont quite understand how pp works as i said in previous post that its fucking complicated. But i do seem to still understand much better than you do. Because if what you bullshitted about was true, that would mean getting 100% acc from that song, it would give more than eighty thousand pp.

Kyou-kun wrote:

nooblet wrote:

Have you even thought about how you'd even implement this? Like, the whole game up till now has been scored this way, it's not gonna change that easily. How would you deal with the billions of scores set up till now?

Change the score values into their corresponding pp values. I don't see what the problem with this is? That has already been done to give people their overall ranks.

blahblah wrote:

All the opposing opinions saying "pp isnt even perfect"

Sea_Food wrote:

Well atleast the thread is now off topic so was worth

Anyway to explain my post I think i was wrong understanding the "sum" part of what full tablet said. I was just focused on

(90% accuracy is worth 99.92% less than 100% accuracy

Which reversed means

100% accuracy is worth 125 000% more than 90% accuracy.

what ever. the suggestion is still ass

That'd be awful. I hope this will never happen.

As far as I know, this is a rhythm game, not a speed tester.

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

actually counting the parts of the map played as neither misses nor 300's would still work just fine without lagging since it doesnt have to recalculate the map every hit object. just once. for example, take a 800 combo map, if you have 400 combo currently + 98% acc it shows the pp you'd have in game as though you cleared it with 400 combo +98 acc... and goes up/down from there. PP has to be calculated live yeah but not the difficulty of the map.

that said, its still pointless

Drezi wrote:

Extrapolation could be nice, one other thing I thought of is that we take the "assume 300s for the rest of the map" approach, but the displayed PP would be simply proportional to your current progress on the drain time of the map, so that there's a sense of progression as you play through the song.

What I mean is that if you SS a song, displayed PP would go from 0% to 100% linearly with drain time, instead of staying the same throughout the whole song, and if you make more and more mistakes, than the overall real PP you can potentially achieve would constantly go down (since we start out assuming 300s for the rest), but this would be offset by the fact that the display of this decreasing value would be weighted from 0% to 100% in proportion to draintime as you play, so overall you could still see an increase in pp over time, reaching your final and real PP at the end of the drain time.

I hope it makes sense and I managed to describe what I was thinking.

Edit: Or it could be in proportion to your progress on the combo total of the map (regardless of breaking combos), instead of drain time, so that the increase is directly linked to the density of objects aswell. Actually this would make more sense, even if PP display updates were linked to hitobjects with the drain time method too.

Tom94 wrote:

Given the current pp algorithm what you suggest wouldn't ensure monotonically increasing pp values.

Tom94 wrote:

Bassist Vinyl wrote:

actually counting the parts of the map played as neither misses nor 300's would still work just fine without lagging since it doesnt have to recalculate the map every hit object. just once. for example, take a 800 combo map, if you have 400 combo currently + 98% acc it shows the pp you'd have in game as though you cleared it with 400 combo +98 acc... and goes up/down from there. PP has to be calculated live yeah but not the difficulty of the map.

that said, its still pointless

What you describe is assuming misses for the rest of the map which I mentioned as an alternative in my post. I don't see how you would have anywhere near enough information to correct me on the last point.

Assuming only 300s maps like tag4 things would first display thousands of pp and then drop to next to nothing at the hard parts. Vice versa assuming misses the pp would only begin raising far into the map. Re-computing the beatmap difficulty up to the current hitobject would ensure a stable amount of pp to play quality ratio.

I want to mention another possibility, that can potentially be good, too. Namely extrapolating the current ratio of misses, 50s, 100s and 300s to the rest of the map and then showing that pp value. This would still have artifacts on maps which have highly varying difficulty (tag4 for instance), but far less than assuming pure 300s or pure misses.