The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.

Like TP I believe the new PP consider a map DT'd a brand new one, and the extra PP is considered as you playing a new map (with higher difficulty).

However considering current parameter (score) using for PP calculation, I DO think giving DT more PP is not justice to high 300g ratio players...

just like what Fudgyking wrote, it's unfair to these players who struggle to get a higher standard speed score with even 1 less 300, and will eventually hurt the societycommunity by implying of "Playing hard maps, not to play a map accurately".

Fudgyking wrote:

The issue here is that DT doesn't increase the score multiplier in mania and that the score is capped at 1 million. This means that even if you make a better score pp-wise with DT and do not beat your standard speed highscore, which is worth less pp, nothing will happen.

This gives an "unfair" advantage to those who didn't make a good standard speed score on a map and can play it with DT instead which gives more pp due to the increased difficulty of the map. Indeed, there are players who could make a decent score with the DT mod, but won't get anything out of it even if it is way harder than in normal speed because they already have a good standard score.

I see no way of solving this issue and keeping the score limit at 1 million at the same time unless it is possible to count only the best performance on a song instead of the best score.

This guy nailed it.

Sorry for double posting, but I believe 50+ difficulty maps need more feedback.

As soon as I dig into 50+ diff maps (I have testplayed them for 3 hours), I found that it's just chaos. Difficulty numbers goes random, when a few 70s can be nearly the same hard as 60s or even 50s and a few 60s is hard to hell.

I know I'm a note-biased player (I can't play sliders-biased pattern well), so I believe others would have different thoughts. And most feedbacks I have seen is focused on 30 or even lower difficulty maps, maybe we can now check these overjoy maps?

(Though there are not many maps which have 50+ difficulty ranked (actually only 1), maybe we still need to work on this to prepare for these hard maps?)

Also how are calculations working for auto converts now? I have a auto convert in my Best Performances list, but I think I've played better songs.

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.
Since lots of people (including me) played mania specific maps and yet it just like the same as no mod plays.

@Fafeluke

All vision mods aren't giving any extra pp at the moment. The only mod giving more pp than usual is DT.

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

Aqo wrote:

Fafeluke wrote:

How about HD/FL ?
Those mods needs considering too to be honest.

On every single map I played with HD I had the same result as nomod; I don't play HD regularly and have not much experience with the mod but it feels like it makes no difference at all difficulty-wise.

Can't speak for FL since I don't play it but I know people who play FL often end up finding it easier than nomod.

This is a great point -- there are probably a number of players who actually use hidden to legitimately reduce the number of objects/notes on screen. Score shouldn't be increased under any hidden circumstance. Fade in produces a similar effect, just the opposite portion of the screen.

However, FL is a different exception -- the amount of space that you have to read guarantees that you will have to lower your scroll speed by a tremendous amount. At this point, you'd likely being reading something incredibly dense or memorizing the chart. Either way, for consistency's sake, it would be a better idea just to leave the multipliers both at 1.00x.

About DT.
I personally have been pro ranking DT in the past, but here's a few reasons why I'm against it now.

As you know, there's the problem that we can't beat nomod scores with DT where the DT scores might have given better pp.
This is because only the highest scores are stored.
Apparently it's also not possible for the algorithm to consider the best DT plays if they are not the highest score, unless some big revamps are done that are probably not going to happen.

The best solution, is to treat DT as an entire different map with a different scoreboard.
An acceptible solution imo, is to consider the best DT plays not only the highest scores.

Both of which are probably not going to happen.

Suboptimal solutions:
- letting people delete their nomod scores so that they can make their highest score a DT play. This is currently not possible server-side.
- a constant score multiplier for DT. The reason this is suboptimal is because complex LN charts will only get a little bit harder, while maps that have already high bpm streams and/or jacks become nearly impossible.
- a non-constant score multiplier could work fine technically I think, but I don't think that's going to happen because of the coding work needed and the aesthetic scoreboard problems.

This is why I suggest unranking DT. I know that it's great for expert players to have a way to get the pp they deserve, but it might be better to wait until harder maps get ranked instead of suboptimal solutions.
Hidden message: rank harder maps.

Xcrypt wrote:

rank harder maps.

^





DT!mania

I would still stick on "no bonus for DT" unless DT version of a map make another scoreboard someday.

Just like what Aqo said,















DT!mania

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

[TaikoTori] wrote:

Why exactly do we discuss DT usage right now? I feel like that is a point being very unimportant right now. What we should concentrate on is why certain converted maps give such an big amount of pp, and why certain mania-maps are considered easy while they are actually hard and vice versa.

The problem with the converted maps such as Extreme Fantasy might be the note density. I agree to an certain extend that yes, the note density on those maps are higher than on other maps, but note density does NOT equal difficulty.

Same thing with some of the mania-maps, especially Wintersun for example, that (in my opinion) should be placed a lot higher than it already is.
There are certain patterns that do not seem hard, but are really hard in reality due to how exactly they are placed. For example http://osu.ppy.sh/b/330588 [Eien] as a Longnote training map, is very, very easy in terms of noteplacement, but this only counts if you are good with Longnotes in the first place.

In my humble opinion, there are two options:

a) Calculate alot of patterns into your algorithm, and i mean -alot- because there are alot.
b) Have a Mania-Difficulty-Rating-Team, as that may an option as long as there arent alot of maps and they could still catch up.

Atleast thats how i see it.

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes

And I would make a 3rd option:
You can only get pp for mania-diffs and the converted maps are for fun/the song/or training or something different
Because I think it would be easier with just a few maps that nothing is "overrated" or "underrated".

Xenlon wrote:

I agree,this is a great idea and a rating team would be really nice IF they dont abuse it for themselfes.

I think the community (-> us) would complain about certain ratings from said team if something seems way off.
That also includes the need of fair members of that team that actually listen to the community when arguing.

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

Tom94 wrote:

arcwinolivirus wrote:

I think fixing the DT bug will be a good start. DT is giving too much PP without score multiplier.

It's not a bug. DT is considered as of now, that's intended behaviour. Whether that will change isn't clear yet.

I see.. that conflicts in score system. I wonder what will change. If there's going to be an unranking score feature just to have DT score, that would be a problem in ranking scoreboard of the song (Mostly top 10 will be no mods and DTs are uhh.. ). If DT will be implemented by score multiplier, the whole mania ranking will change because scores are passing through the limit 1M. (meaning re-playing all the songs we just recorded back then and new sets of scoreboards of all songs).

Can someone explain to me how did i improve my acc in 5/6 musics from 97% to 99%, and still my overall acc went from 99.28% to 99.11%?
This has anything to do with this new pp system?

DT shouldn't be counted since we have 1M limit of score, and we can easly get higher score without mods. And other way around if we have high score nomod play (wanted to top 50 for example) we can't beat it with DT and we get less pp than somebody who's doing worse than us with DT but didn't have a score before. And there's no point in going for top 50 anymore, just play with DT and get way more pp, it shouldn't be this way imo

I would like to go back to a point I made a few weeks ago on this thread which was something along the lines of "Double Time sounds bad". At the end of the day Osu! is a game, in fact it's a rhythm game meaning it has a greater than average emphasis on music. One of the many reasons I play Mania is that I value how a game sounds, if a game sounds like **** I will not listen to it,just like I will not listen to DT regardless of how much it increases my rank.


Double Time is not the thing that bugged me the most about this patch though. Some of my "Best Performance" are from 5-6 months ago and I have absolutely no idea why; For a start these are all auto-converts which play absolutely nothing like mania maps do. Secondly I watched a reply of my "Best Performance" and the song was slow, long, boring but I only missed one note, which I can only assume is the reason it's up there. Finally, and the one that confuses me the most, the last time the PP system was broken this song was nowhere to be seen on my "Best Performance" .

I feel like I need to explain the cause of my anger here, because at the minute I just sound like someone who's butthurt at losing PP, which admittedly I am. I have improved on this game most days for the past 6 months to the point where I can score S ranks on a difficulty that I would not have even bothered to attempt and it feels like all that effort has been disregarded to the point where, aside from a few songs, I may as well have quit and played another game because it made absolutely no difference to my performance.

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.

October Scream wrote:

This thread in a nutshell: ppv2 is crap.

DT should not be considered if it should give extra pp or not. It should already not be giving extra pp. The only way it could be remotely considered if it was to give extra pp when you're in the top 8 of a song. The only ones I've seen using DT are the top 10 O!M players, and their non DT scores are a hell of a lot better than there recent DT scores. It would have been best to stick with a broken ppv1 I would say since it didn't give any extra pp to players who used mods (But the star system is broke, which I will talk about in the next paragraph).

I'm seeing very subjective stuff here. Many people I've talked to speak differently about their DT scores. Don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as you, a ranking system is supposed to please as many as possible.

October Scream wrote:

And on the topic of Auto Converts; why only count certain auto converts, and deny a team of O!M map judges? The method of suggesting which maps are giving too much pp for their difficulty from other players to you is almost the same as having a map judging team; the only difference is that it's the final opinion of one person instead of multiple people, which is far more accurate than one person or a broken star system.

The difference is, that an algorithm decides the difficulty of maps. I'm not sitting here giving maps difficulty values by hand. Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment. Having people determine the difficulty would automatically introduce bias. And a huge mess of management effort which isn't needed if an algorithm takes care of it. Not even speaking of the days if not weeks / months it'd take a team to work through every single ranked map and consent on a suitable difficulty.

Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass... You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

Drace wrote:

Tom, looking over the list again, it will be impossible to make an even semi-accurate algorithm with only strain values. Its like judging a sport's team on only their muscle mass...

Not true. Strains are not density. This is not "one" algorithm concept, more like a medium that represents how things get harder with time. It applies to any hard pattern, that if it constantly is of about the same difficulty, then it gets harder the longer it is. That's what strain values capture.

The algorithm has issues identifying which patterns are hard, that's true, and as I said I have several ideas (some from suggestions by Aqo) which will probably improve this.

Drace wrote:

You're gonna have to set up a pattern library and put maps against it for any hope of this being successful.

I'm pretty sure there are some general rules that define which things make patterns hard, or at least approximate that well enough. The trick is to find that those rules.
Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns. That'd help immensely, and originally I had hoped for more of that kind of feedback. ^^'

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started.

Nothing stops anyone from getting it going. I for sure am not suitable for that job. I'm a horrible manager and know little about mania. And on top of that I don't have much time at my disposal. What I am good at, or at least think I am, is doing the algorithm stuff.
Do you know how I got in here? By making tp, a working system. If you, or anyone else manages to make a system, that's superior, then I am sure it'll get used.


Keep in mind, that I only have time for osu! as a part-time-job and have to also manage the other gamemodes. On top of that I was mostly busy building the pp infrastructure for this. I've spent maybe 10 hours tweaking this algorithm with barely any community feedback since I didn't have anything public to show. Give it some time and it won't be as bad, I can assure you that. From now on I'll have more time actually tweaking the algorithms.

It still seems like too much of a single-dimension approach in my opinion. There's many instances of maps with insanely lower density, which won't build up the strain values, that are much harder than high density because of how awkward the correlations between the patterns are with each other. In many cases maps show to be more of a confusing layout to play rather than a physical challenge.

I actually believe the physical side to difficulty to be a little less relevant since in most cases when a player reaches the reading skill required to play high speed maps that would require good stamina, he would of also have indirectly trained the physical abilities to do so.

I don't believe it's possible to algorithmically solve for a strain or difficulty value of patterns when even pro players encounter pattern that to their disbelief is much harder than they thought it'd be. Especially when, no offense, yourself and a big chunk and or your help and feedback (including myself) are players not experienced enough to accurately depict the exact dimensions of what makes a map more difficult than others. It also doesn't help that concept itself is a mostly abstract one either.

A good example of this is how the very same map can become much harder or much easier just by switching the lanes around, aka using random. I'm not joking when I say that some instances of random can have ridiculous effects on a song's difficulty. Yet both maps will the same per-lane strains, the same density, the same length and the same speed.

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

Do you think an automatic difficulty calculation algorithm is inherently broken? If that is the case, why?

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

October Scream wrote:

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

I don't think that solution would solve the problem about patterns being subjective, even, it would involve even more subjectivity (not all people would consider a difficulty of "21" the same), and it would add randomness (due to the judges not being always the same people; and even if they were the same people all the time, there is still an element of randomness in their own judgments).

Getting a list of maps with the difficulties determined the way you describe would be useful, though. With those values it would be possible to analyze in more detail how different elements make osu!mania maps difficult so the algorithm can be improved.

The thing about the algorithm path to determine difficulty levels is that it only needs to be done well once to make it work for all maps.

Tom94 wrote:

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I believe other people like Drace said what I just want to said below.

I'm not saying the algorithm is "wrong". It's always "correct" and reflect one kind of difficulty - based on a certain norm.
Actually, we everyone have a norm. For example, when I say that

xxbidiao wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy.

I implied that

xxbidiao's thought wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy. That's why I can't get good score on this song amongst other song of same "difficulty".

You should get what I mean - It's nonsense at all to the community, because other people may find it easy or even harder - in one word, have different thoughts. And it's all about the norm we set up during our years of rhythm gaming experience.

For instance, I started rhythm gaming on Taiko no Tatsujin and DJMAX / DDR, which is all note-biased. Without good experience on slider-style song, I'm good on IIDX style songs, but poor at O2-style songs.
However, Fate_Yakumo, another player who is of O2Jam expert, find these slider songs easy - He can S a song of O2Jam style that I can't pass. When coming to IIDX songs, instead of one-side winning, we are just at the same level, something 70% vs 30%.
You guess what? I always overrate slider-biased song, and he always overrate note-biased ones.

This example reflect 2 common norm in 7/8K: IIDX norm and O2Jam norm. There are also many more, and every key amount have multiple norms. Sadly they are not enough compact with each other. And whether you admit it or not, you are setting up your own norm.

Just like what you have said,

Tom94 wrote:

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much

You implied that "I'll degrade these players who is good at high-density pattern playing" (To some extent moving away from IIDX norm to O2Jam norm).

So this is why I keep saying that "This difficulty number does nothing with actual difficulty at all" and "We should try to admit there are weighted songs".
Considering the diversity of mania players, however you modify your algorithm, there are always some people winning, and some people losing.

My suggestion is, however hard it is, and however offence you made, a certain norm should be set up. Whether you choose BMS norm (note biased, density and jackhammers counts ) or O2Jam norm (slider biased, coordination counts) or even DDR norm (hand speed counts) or a mixture of them, Don't hesitate to say that "I mean to hurt you" because what norm you choose you hurt some people who have ability that the norm doesn't emphasize on. What's more, the process of letting players finding their weighted song is fun, isn't it?

-----------------

For the DT stuff, I actually have more to say.
Why do people come here to protest about DT score problem?
Actually it's not about scoring at all (People can play DT on the first run).
DT getting higher weight neglects the design of the osu!mania system.

You may have noticed that osu!mania has the most strict judgment with MAX even on OD0 (Actually OD0 and OD10 has no difference on timing of MAX). This is intended because most people agree that osu!mania should be different to other modes by having judgment emphasized, not combo. (o!m once calculate score just like o!standard and current scoring system is later decided.) The philosophy inside is that 1 more MAX is good.

However having DT heavier weighted, though completely reasonable, is going against this. People may achieve a just-so-so S score to win more PP then a SS with 90% MAX ratio. This put osu!mania far away from it's emphasize on judgment, to the extent that people just DTing every song regardless of judgment, and people no longer care about MAX ratio. This is surely what people don't want to see. (Feature requests on DT bonus score has been rejected multiple times both by faculty and players)

So unless ppy somewhat change the mechanism to make DT version of the beatmap a whole new one and have its separate scoreboard, I suggest no bonus for DT for now.

The algorithm is still unrefined and not final, give it some time. Being butthurt about it is not helping anyone. The guy who is doing effort trying to make your ranking system better for once is getting flamed around every corner, do you think that will be a positive influence for him? What we need is actual feedback.

I am slowly progressing on some small list of the maps I personally play of what is under/over rated myself and what patterns might be causing this, but I will need some more time before I can make conclusions. I suggest you could do this yourself with the maps you play too, because for example I can only judge intermediate maps: I have no understanding of beginner or ET maps. Even if you don't feel like you are really understanding what patterns are causing it to be harder/easier, just having a list will already be helpful. If you are considerably better at LN than chords, or vice versa, that might be worth noting aswell.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Of course nothing stops you or anyone from providing a list of easy and hard patterns.

This is like what you said to me about opinions. For some people, they find jackhammers incredibly easy, but stairs hard, vice versa.

It's still possible to take the average of the opinions of multiple people.
And yeah, a ranking system is inherently based on opinions. There will always be someone who completely disagrees with it, and that's completely valid.

October Scream wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Everything is done automatically, which ensures, that every map gets the exact same treatment.

Weren't we trying to avoid something like that before? Pretty soon, some people will start saying that what you're using is broken as well.

What exactly do you mean by that. What did you want to avoid? I've always wanted equal treatment of maps in regards to the difficulty constraints.

October Scream wrote:

Drace wrote:

Also a difficulty rating team won't be hard to run and manage at all. The only thing is it might be slightly challenging to get it started. It'd just be an extra step between bubble and rank, it will more accurate than any algorith, and a number of members will make it not biased. There's also no reason for this to take months haha

^ Get it started sooner and it will work easily. There should be multiple rules for applying though, like being above rank #200, skill in modding, have made a map, and/or are a BAT member. Even some low rank people could help by testing out easy maps and such. How a process could work is first, the map should be qualified. Once that happens, about 7 users should play each diff (not all having to be the same players each diff) with no mods, a vision mod, or hard rock (No key mods, random, or easy mods), and should get a C or greater. They would use a forum to fill out that would judge by a scale of 1-25 or any other number on things such as patterns, note frequency, chords, freezes, etc. They'd submit their opinion to Tom94 (Since he's running it mostly ATM) and then a simple math equation could be done to find an average of everyone's submitted fourm.

It'd be impossible for me to manage the team itself, due to having only limited time and lack of knowledge about the gamemode.
But it would be great, if you guys could set something like this up. As long as the difficulty lists are incomplete it can be used as reference for the algorithm and if you actually manage to provide reliable and complete (all ranked maps, including converts for the beginning; _all_ uploaded maps in the end for the star rating) difficulty values that make a great ranking system, then I'm sure you can convince us to use it. That'd be an incredible feat, though.

xxbidiao wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

There won't be any rating team, due to the immense amount of time that'd be required to manage it, sorry. Give the algorithm chances, write which maps you think are rated wrong as some others already did.

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much.

I believe other people like Drace said what I just want to said below.

I'm not saying the algorithm is "wrong". It's always "correct" and reflect one kind of difficulty - based on a certain norm.
Actually, we everyone have a norm. For example, when I say that

xxbidiao wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy.

I implied that

xxbidiao's thought wrote:

Imperishable night 2006 is underrated. Its later half is crazy. That's why I can't get good score on this song amongst other song of same "difficulty".

You should get what I mean - It's nonsense at all to the community, because other people may find it easy or even harder - in one word, have different thoughts. And it's all about the norm we set up during our years of rhythm gaming experience.

For instance, I started rhythm gaming on Taiko no Tatsujin and DJMAX / DDR, which is all note-biased. Without good experience on slider-style song, I'm good on IIDX style songs, but poor at O2-style songs.
However, Fate_Yakumo, another player who is of O2Jam expert, find these slider songs easy - He can S a song of O2Jam style that I can't pass. When coming to IIDX songs, instead of one-side winning, we are just at the same level, something 70% vs 30%.
You guess what? I always overrate slider-biased song, and he always overrate note-biased ones.

This example reflect 2 common norm in 7/8K: IIDX norm and O2Jam norm. There are also many more, and every key amount have multiple norms. Sadly they are not enough compact with each other. And whether you admit it or not, you are setting up your own norm.

Just like what you have said,

Tom94 wrote:

I already have ideas on how to circumvent those high-density patterns from being weighted too much

You implied that "I'll degrade these players who is good at high-density pattern playing" (To some extent moving away from IIDX norm to O2Jam norm).

So this is why I keep saying that "This difficulty number does nothing with actual difficulty at all" and "We should try to admit there are weighted songs".
Considering the diversity of mania players, however you modify your algorithm, there are always some people winning, and some people losing.

My suggestion is, however hard it is, and however offence you made, a certain norm should be set up. Whether you choose BMS norm (note biased, density and jackhammers counts ) or O2Jam norm (slider biased, coordination counts) or even DDR norm (hand speed counts) or a mixture of them, Don't hesitate to say that "I mean to hurt you" because what norm you choose you hurt some people who have ability that the norm doesn't emphasize on. What's more, the process of letting players finding their weighted song is fun, isn't it?

-----------------

For the DT stuff, I actually have more to say.
Why do people come here to protest about DT score problem?
Actually it's not about scoring at all (People can play DT on the first run).
DT getting higher weight neglects the design of the osu!mania system.

You may have noticed that osu!mania has the most strict judgment with MAX even on OD0 (Actually OD0 and OD10 has no difference on timing of MAX). This is intended because most people agree that osu!mania should be different to other modes by having judgment emphasized, not combo. (o!m once calculate score just like o!standard and current scoring system is later decided.) The philosophy inside is that 1 more MAX is good.

However having DT heavier weighted, though completely reasonable, is going against this. People may achieve a just-so-so S score to win more PP then a SS with 90% MAX ratio. This put osu!mania far away from it's emphasize on judgment, to the extent that people just DTing every song regardless of judgment, and people no longer care about MAX ratio. This is surely what people don't want to see. (Feature requests on DT bonus score has been rejected multiple times both by faculty and players)

So unless ppy somewhat change the mechanism to make DT version of the beatmap a whole new one and have its separate scoreboard, I suggest no bonus for DT for now.

There definitely needs to be something done with DT, and removing the pp bonus of it is one possibility that's not unlikely to happen. I completely agree, that the current situation where DT and nomod share the same leaderboard and even the same score range is bad if DT is taken into consideration for pp.

Regarding what you said about norms: What speaks against rating multiple norms? Like "aim" and "speed" in standard. Sure, in the end someone will always be degraded, but it can't hurt to find a combination of norms that makes most people happy.
Long way to go, till the algorithm is refined enough for that, though. I wish I had more time at my disposal to work on it more, I apologize for the slow changes. :/

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

milky228 wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

Dropping your pp by beating your score is extremely unlikely in o!m. You'd need to get just barely more score with a lot worse accuracy for that to happen.

The rank drop most likely occured due to other people passing you, as it always has been already.

Hey,

Just checked the page of my new mapset that I submitted yesterday (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/380286&m=3).
The diff rating went from Easy and Normal to Hard and Insane for the first two diffs. Does this have anything to do with the changes being made with the diff rating and ranking system ?

PyaKura wrote:

Hey,

Just checked the page of my new mapset that I submitted yesterday (http://osu.ppy.sh/b/380286&m=3).
The diff rating went from Easy and Normal to Hard and Insane for the first two diffs. Does this have anything to do with the changes being made with the diff rating and ranking system ?

Most likely, since ranked mania maps star rating is fixed right now (no more Another's as Normal's ftw) for unranked maps it may be bugged/wrong tho

No more anothers as normals, maybe, but normals as insanes. And my 'normal's are easier than quite a lot of other peoples are.

There's no rational reason why this would be harder than this (to use 2 examples of maps made by me - the latter of which was degraded from low insane to high hard recently, and the former of which is a newly uploaded beatmap), unless there's some huge and irrational boost in difficulty from the single SV change near the end of the former.

That why I told that it's currently wrong on unranked maps, it seems good on all ranked maps, but idk why it's doing wrong calculations on unranked maps, well it's still WIP so we have to wait patiently

milky228 wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Sorry to bother, I'm a noob and don't really have a place in these discussions,

but recently since the new system came out, I've been playing harder maps (That I get a terrible score in).
I'll get like a B or C on a map, then come back to it later and beat my personal highscore on the map, then I visibly watch my ranking drop when the screen flash updates in the song stats screen. I know the system is unstable but I don't remember this being a thing in the old system, correct me if I'm wrong. This makes me not want to play online and improve w.w""

This happened to me in the old system and I put it down to people that were lower ranks than me moving up and therefore putting me down, I assumed this only updated after i'd played my first song. There also seems to be a bug on other gamemodes where peoples PP is going down after beating there personal best, I expect this will be patched soon if it's also affecting o!m.

Tom94 wrote:

Dropping your pp by beating your score is extremely unlikely in o!m. You'd need to get just barely more score with a lot worse accuracy for that to happen.

The rank drop most likely occured due to other people passing you, as it always has been already.

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.
I then proceeded to play http://osu.ppy.sh/b/21334 (A pretty underplayed and easy map) for fun. The last time I played the map was awhile ago, and I got a low B on it, today I got a mid A on it with DT mod. After finishing the map I drop to 8006, where I currently am. There was not an accuracy decrease, I scored higher, and dropped rank, this is what I was talking about earlier. I don't care a gigantic amount about it, but I do use it as a sort of progress indicator. Cases like this are really confusing, and I'd like to know if this is intended behavior, so far though I do like the new system considerably better, I just don't remember this particular thing happening before.

If it's intended for me to drop in this manner I'll stop playing when inebriated or tired w.w""

Thing O Doom wrote:

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.

I don't think playing an unranked map triggers a rank refresh.

Full Tablet wrote:

Thing O Doom wrote:

Ok, I think I can debunk this now, this morning I played a map and it shows my rank as ~7990, this was an unranked map so nothing was affected, this being just to make sure I didn't get overly surpassed while sleeping.

I don't think playing an unranked map triggers a rank refresh.

The box with rank still flashes red, and updates from what I could tell, seeing as pass/fail stats are tracked for unranked maps?

pp only updates when you get a new high score on a map. It can be your first pass on a map you never played or it can be beating your best score on another map. Only ranked maps count, unranked ones won't trigger any change.

我覺得應該要把所有分數統一!不然因為有些玩家是專練4K完7K歌根本被7K玩家壓分!排名就只有玩7K的玩家排前很不公平

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit. No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Actually Staiain is one of the best 4K players in the world and he certanly deserves to be in top 50, even if he isn't that good at 7K, (air raid pls), but I get your point with ridiculus DT scalings. It's gotten to a point where you can get 1K pp for just playing autoconverts with 4K mod and even more with DT. It's definitly what we don't want to see. Autoconverts and DT are too heavily weighted imho

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Can you name any players who are better than Staiain at stepmania style maps? What gives you the right to say which kind of skill is worth the most? I can understand if you disagree, that's totally valid, but try being less offensive. It's not like your opinion is worth more than that of other's.

#1 Judging from the general opinion here the DT bonus for pp will get removed for now. It might return when there has been found a solution regarding nomod plays overwriting DT, but as it is now it doesn't make much sense to have DT give a bonus.

#2 Keymods don't decrease pp gain at the moment. This will change.

Tom94 wrote:

October Scream wrote:

http://osu.ppy.sh/u/86188 <-- This is bullshit.

No one would play dt back then, now everyone is, and he's sprung up to the top because of key mods and dt. I don't care as much about dt, I care about the key mods coming back. So many players are better than that, and I don't know why they can't be up there?

Can you name any players who are better than Staiain at stepmania style maps? What gives you the right to say which kind of skill is worth the most? I can understand if you disagree, that's totally valid, but try being less offensive. It's not like your opinion is worth more than that of other's.

#1 Judging from the general opinion here the DT bonus for pp will get removed for now. It might return when there has been found a solution regarding nomod plays overwriting DT, but as it is now it doesn't make much sense to have DT give a bonus.

#2 Keymods don't decrease pp gain at the moment. This will change.

Right now, I can compare Furry. There are more players out there though, and the only reason Furry isn't high is because he is playing unranked maps it seems to me.

October Scream wrote:

Right now, I can compare Furry. There are more players out there though, and the only reason Furry isn't high is because he is playing unranked maps it seems to me.

"Only playing unranked maps" is not a valid argument. If you want performance points you have to perform on ranked maps. It's impossible to rate players skills while not having plays of them to see.

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

October Scream wrote:

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

Any videos?

AlexDest wrote:

Any videos?

His scarlet rose dt pass with 4k.

October Scream wrote:

AlexDest wrote:

Any videos?

His scarlet rose dt pass with 4k.

I never made a video of that so that's made up oops

That was about Furry actually Staiain.

I could record it with his permission.

The difference is still pretty big as we're talking about a PASS vs FC first try so yeah >_>

If you really think Scarlet Rose DT pass is impressive, then I suggest you go watch more videos, especially Staiain's. Your basis on what defines a "pro" player is severely flawed.

I can clear Scarlet Rose HDDT on 7K, and so can tons of other players. Does this make us all top #50 material?

ZXCV wrote:

If you really think Scarlet Rose DT pass is impressive, then I suggest you go watch more videos, especially Staiain's. Your basis on what defines a "pro" player is severely flawed.

I can clear Scarlet Rose HDDT on 7K, and so can tons of other players. Does this make us all top #50 material?

I can do that as well, but it isn't #50 worthy.

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

ZXCV wrote:

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

Didn't we decided that already? That's why it's not giving pp now.

October Scream wrote:

ZXCV wrote:

Good, so you agree that passes on DT autoconverts are completely obsolete when it comes to gauging a player's skill.
Case closed.

Didn't we decided that already? That's why it's not giving pp now.

you appeared to miss the emphasis on the word passes

so let me point it out for you



DT wasn't disabled because it is worthless. it is disabled because within the boundaries of the current scoring system, it is confusing and hard to calculate. both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm once tom94 figures out what to do with them, and this has been stated explicitly

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

October Scream wrote:

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

october scream, you are ignoring my post and every point we have made.

THIS IS FROM YOUR USERPAGE

if you are going to spearhead a movement to get keymods unranked, you should expect that we will confront you about these issues we have with your argument. we have not made a SINGLE threat, nor are we blaming you. we are simply asking you to explain yourself and refute what we are saying.

until you are willing to do so, this is the last i have to say on the matter

Bites wrote:

October Scream wrote:

I find it moronic how you guys are mainly blaming me and aiming most threats at me. Many other users have spoken about this, and are tired of it.

I'm just the one that spoke up. This is all of their opinions plus mine, so go scout them out and threaten them.

october scream, you are ignoring my post and every point we have made.

THIS IS FROM YOUR USERPAGE

if you are going to spearhead a movement to get keymods unranked, you should expect that we will confront you about these issues we have with your argument. we have not made a SINGLE threat, nor are we blaming you. we are simply asking you to explain yourself and refute what we are saying.

until you are willing to do so, this is the last i have to say on the matter

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

DT mode now doesn't give any kind of pp bonus anymore (as most people voted in here ) and key-mods don't give any pp until their difficulty has been calculated in isolation. keymods giving pp was an oversight on my end, I apologize for that one. They will resume giving pp as soon as difficulty data is available for everything.

October Scream wrote:

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

keymods will return as soon as difficulty data is there, so your petition hasn't been "fixed". They'll likely will be worth less, though, since converts away from 7K usually end up easier.

Bites wrote:

this is the last i have to say on the matter

i rescind this statement

October Scream wrote:

I'm aware of that petition. I started it because no one else would.

If you want me to explain, fine. I didn't like it when key modders would pass other players, but I have no use of that petition now actually since it's been fixed already.

you are aware though that the issue hasn't been 'fixed' yet, and this is simply a temporary solution until tom94 is able to properly calculate the difference in scoring between the different keymods? in no way is DT or keymodding going to remain unranked. i had JUST said this in an earlier post:

Bites wrote:

both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm once tom94 figures out what to do with them, and this has been stated explicitly

since you missed it, and i have reason to believe you will miss it again, let me yet again point it out to you

I have read all of your posts Bites, and it was fixed before today to a point I was fine with. I realize how stupid that petition was, so I stopped caring for it and totally forgot about it. That petition was 2 months old. I won't answer everything you post though, because either I don't know how to or I'm fine with it.

So I'm fine with the temporary solution right now.

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

Halogen- wrote:

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

I'm a 7K player, I suck at everything which is not 7K, sorry.

PyaKura wrote:

Halogen- wrote:

I am glad that DT and key-mod conversions will return to the rankings at the least. I will agree as a osu!mania player who could have probably taken Staiain's speed route to reach the top 10-20 despite not being able to proficiently play above 6k -- the PP scaling could have definitely been improved a bit.

I wanted to make a suggestion about separating performance points by keys in osu!mania since you're practically playing different games when you add keys, but... one of the toughest parts about scoring in osu!mania is that most players who can play higher key beat-maps are (usually) also capable of playing lower ones as well, making separated scoreboards/ranks by key a bit redundant for those who can play 8k all the way down to 4k.

I'm a 7K player, I suck at everything which is not 7K, sorry.

You are quite the outlier.

October Scream wrote:

I've spectated him, and he's good. May pass Staiain. He has dt ranks on autoconverts, but 4k, just like Staiain.

I don't think anyone other than Stian can Disregard 1.2 AA or TOML 1.6

not to mention stupid crazy scores like Vertex Gamma FC.

I mean 300 bpm streams are easily managable by most of the veteran players on Stepmania but when you take it past 400 bpm it's inhuman.

At least post a video?

Bites wrote:

both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm

is this why I fell from 350 to 5k rank ROFL
(my current BP are 2 mania 4K, all the rest non-keymodded converts except Sweet Rain [Normal])

So just to check this at this moment in time playing a map with a keymod will give you 0pp?

falkon13 wrote:

So just to check this at this moment in time playing a map with a keymod will give you 0pp?

Yes. But even if you get 0pp for doing a score right now, this very score will resume to giving pp once difficulty per-keymod has been implemented. This means you're not losing anything in the long run by playing with keymods now.

I'm just wondering why i have 277 pp while some people are at 5-7 thousand pp, why is the difference so big?
Is it because im not ranking high in songs or what?

Autoconverts don't weigh as much as mania-spec maps do. Also, you get more pp by clearing harder difficulties, especially in mania-spec mapsets.

Probably because playing autoconverts held back your improvement for osu!mania.

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Staiain wrote:

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Ouch.

Although, it's a quite deserved response considering that this thread was quiet until he called the situation bullshit and had a hissy-fit, haha

Halogen- wrote:

Staiain wrote:

To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill

Ouch.

Although, it's a quite deserved response considering that this thread was quiet until he called the situation bullshit and had a hissy-fit, haha

I spoke up because I found it unfair for those who have skill with all key densities instead of people with one set density being in the top past those players. If anything, Staiain needs to improve his other key skills like every other player is doing instead of sticking to 4k just to farm.

"rrtyui you need to improve your skill at other games rather than sticking to osu! standard to farm PP"

do you see where I am going with this? 4k and 7k might be in osu!mania, but they are different games. Different file structures, different attentions to detail, and different player groups. Stop trying to force players to play things they might not be interested in when they are more than proficient in the game that they desire to play. You are being inconsiderate, insulting, and just downright stupid.

I will level with people: auto-converts probably should take a massive deduction or shouldn't be ranked at all. I think that's largely agreeable. Attitudes like October Scream's are fostering negativity.

Halogen- wrote:

"rrtyui you need to improve your skill at other games rather than sticking to osu! standard to farm PP"

do you see where I am going with this? 4k and 7k might be in osu!mania, but they are different games. Different file structures, different attentions to detail, and different player groups. Stop trying to force players to play things they might not be interested in when they are more than proficient in the game that they desire to play. You are being inconsiderate, insulting, and just downright stupid.

I will level with people: auto-converts probably should take a massive deduction or shouldn't be ranked at all. I think that's largely agreeable. Attitudes like October Scream's are fostering negativity.

Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.

This is osu!mania. Mania isn't just 4k, 5k, 6k, or 7k, 7+1k, or 8k. I didn't come here to show I was one of the best Guitar Hero players ever (which would just be 5k), I and so many others came here to show we have more capability to play any amount of keys thrown at us. 7k was a new concept to me, I almost only did 5k! But I practiced, and so many others did to when it came to other key densities. Learning all of this was hard for me, even 4k, but the reason I asked for this is for the people who actually practiced the wide variety of keys.

I don't give a damn if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world, and no one would give a damn about me being the best Guitar Hero player in the world! Some people are just too lazy to learn how to play with other densities. I find 4k not as easy as it looks, but I don't say f it and just stick to 7k, I practiced all of those key densities, and anyone else can to.

No, I'm not trying to force people to play like me. No, I'm not saying all of this because "I can't farm fast enough" (which is pretty stupid to do if that's why you're here). I'm just here for fun, and it feels like it's all a popularity contest the way everything is working now.

Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.

...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here, so I'm going to use other rhythm games as an example to show you how your idea of key-separating is entirely incorrect. I'm sure that a number of players here are familiar with rhythm games like Dance Dance Revolution / In The Groove -- 4 "keys", and 8 "keys", Pump It Up (referred to as PIU below) -- 5 "keys" and 10 "keys", and I'll also throw another game into the mix as well -- Technomotion, which is 9 "keys". All of these games have the SAME mechanic -- tapping your foot to the corresponding panel in accordance with the music, just like all of the key values of osu!mania have the exact same mechanic -- tapping your key to the corresponding receptor in accordance with the music. Here's where your argument fails: all of these games are played under this same mechanic, but have different physical construction to the play in question. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, look up all of these games and their respective modes. Fun fact: all of the previously mentioned games with the exception of Dance Dance Revolution, have large communities that sit down and make content for these games, much like the mappers of osu! and osu!mania work on content for this game. But enough about that, let me make my point:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).

Calling a regular n-key player weak because another player is capable of playing n+1 key proficiently makes no sense at all, just like saying n+1 is worse than n+2 makes no sense, and yadayadayada. They are different games executed in entirely different matters, and if you take the time to do your research on the maps for each mode, you would likely find that 4K charts are constructed much more differently than 6K/7K charts. Most players who started on games like IIDX and transferred over here might be incredible at sustaining huge densities of cohesion in maps, but throw extremely high speeds at them and they likely won't fare too well without a ton of practice. Why? Because fundamentally, they are different games. It doesn't matter that they're all contained within one classification (osu!mania) -- what matters is how the game is played (4K/5K/6K/7K/8K/xK). You likely will notice that a lot of good 7K players don't land on 4K boards because they have no interest in playing lower key values, so you tell me: where does this double standard end?

October Scream wrote:

if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world

What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.

I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.

Halogen- wrote:

...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?

What I'm getting at here is that standard will still use 2 keys or two mouse clicks, all it is is there will be harder things from the same map and different mappers. It's just placed differently. Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k, but they both have different key amounts, when standard, sticks with the same things through the whole mode, same with taiko and CtB.

Halogen- wrote:

they are different games.

This is a different game as well. I see your points, but I'm not acknowledging them or saying my minds set towards them. If you want me to say my opinions on yours, then just ask.

Since you seem like I don't understand, I'll answer one of them.

Halogen- wrote:

Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).

I never said weak. I said lazy. If they don't want to learn how to play because they just want their same key amount, that's just lazy. If they don't want to learn because it's extremely difficult for them, then they should say and I'd understand. But instead, they defend themselves by saying "I'd like to see you try this." If they can say that, then I should be able to as well.

PIU and DDR/ITG are the same mechanics: Step on the arrows. The difference is you have 1-2 extra columns to focus on. Technomotion I'm not familiar with, but Pop n' Music I am. That's their choice of why they don't want to learn anything else. I'm finding all of your long posts getting us nowhere because all you'll say is

Halogen- wrote:

You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here,

. Maybe I am, and I'm just not gonna reply about it.

October Scream wrote:

Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k

thank you, case closed

Staiain wrote:

October Scream wrote:

if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world

What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.

I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.

What if ideu-, Entozer, or some other player was the best 7k player in the world? Would they stick to just 7k?

No. They play all key amounts and enjoy it all. The only reason I ever considered you of farming was all of the Autoconverts being dt, then saying you enjoy to farm also made me think badly, and that was a bad, terrible assumption. If you want an apology, I'll give one.

I'm sorry I thought you farmed for the hell of it. You are a good 4k player, it's just not only 4k out here though, and I thought it was unfair to everyone that's played all keys.

I agree my rank was way too high for having played almost all 4k (i never said i did), but seeing as there are almost as many 4k charts as 7k charts ranked (to my knownledge) and that i did for the most part play those and not autoconverts I still feel that players like me, Halogen-, Bites etc. derserve some recogntion in the form of DT pp increase, considering we are able to get good scores on those charts (sometimes making it to the top 50 board) even with the handicap of using DT which I feel derserves recognition, pp is after all meant to be a way to objectively measure a players skill level to some degree.

I'm not here to show off or try to get the highest rank I can, if you see my play count here you can tell I am casually playing this game, I'm just stating that even if we don't play 7k as much as 4k doesn't mean we aren't high level players that should be left out of the pp system.

I accept the apology and we should put this misunderstanding behind us.

This really has gotten out of hand, and it's all because of one person (who in my opinion, really doesn't know a lot about what they're talking about). I'd much rather contribute to a meaningful discussion on how to resolve this point system algorithm so that it can fairly represent all osu!m players, 4K through 8K players alike. I feel like scaling the score multiplier objectively for auto-converts and the number of keys away from the original value is a good way to add deductions -- I mentioned something like 1.00x - .125n, where n is the number of keys away from the original number of keys from normal; this way, a 4K player can still net performance points for playing an 8K conversion, but they're only getting half as many PP as normal. This would discourage PP grinding outside of a given key-range. To compensate, RC for other key-modes should be considered such so that an even number of files exists for 4, 5, 6, 7 (maybe 8) key modes. You could expect a more even distribution of performance points handed out for players who are proficient in all modes, and you could expect higher plays for ranked files overall by those who have to play auto-converts.

If a player plays a song on DT, you can add a fixed amount and scale the values similarly -- so, if 1 - .125x is the algorithm and you wanted DT to hand out 10% more pp normally, you would say: 1.1 - .1375, etc.

Just a thought. Bouncing more ideas out could be helpful for Tom94 and I for one am in favor of getting the ball rolling so that there is a solid system in place.

Halogen- wrote:

This really has gotten out of hand, and it's all because of one person (who in my opinion, really doesn't know a lot about what they're talking about).

Well, that makes me feel better......

The reason I've flipped out was because I thought Tom94 never listened to anything some of us said, but that was a stupid thing as well. I was just stating my opinion as well originally and giving my opinions on how the pp scoring could be fixed. We talked yesterday though, and I realize he doesn't have time for everything he's working on, which I've forgotten out of frustration and anger.

I'd gladly like to get back to the main topic and for all of us to help with this.

I'd like to ask you - mania players about a certain thing. What do you think is harder/easier or same difficulty. Let's take 2 maps: 4k and 7k. Let's pretend that note density of each one is same and bpm is same. For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation. How would you judge the skill required to play these maps? We can also take it a step further to use all our fingers and say, use a 10k map with a density of 25 notes/s.

Under a different number of keys, an equal density would lead to the intensity being major more likely on the lower amount of keys.

After a certain density, the difference would reside in the special key, though, if you're thinking per-lane densities instead of overall density.
Hitting 4k, 6k and S8K is likely to use the same jacking abilities (With the exception on pinkies, being the weakest fingers of the hand, probably)

whereas the special 5k, 7k and 7k+1 key modes are likely to be different, even more so depending on your key setup.

I'm not sure it can be evaluated without going for a case-by-case basis.

if you have the same density per lane, then the higher keymode would most likely be quite a bit more difficult, due to needing more muscle memory and reading skill to deal with all the patterns.
if you have the same density overall, then the lower keymode would probably be quite a bit more difficult due to the fact that you have a lot more strain on less fingers.

It goes down to what I mentioned when responding to October Scream -- it's all down to pattern construction.

For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation.

The unfortunate matter is that you simply can't judge based off of the note density itself, because patterns are going to be inherently harder on 4K than 7K for different reasons. Despite only using index/middle or middle/ring, there are some patterns that are going to lend themselves to more difficulty. Assuming that there's no crazy patterns, and that doubles are used regularly/alternated, you can expect more patterns on 4K to be anchor-heavy (an anchor is a situation where the same arrow implicitly/explicitly repeats multiple times) because there's less room to play with layering in charts. Being that there are less pattern combinations overall on 4K, Agka brings up an arguable point:

Agka wrote:

Under a different number of keys, an equal density would lead to the intensity being major more likely on the lower amount of keys.

Before going on though, I do want to make a note that overall note density shouldn't be increased simply because there are more keys: this simply implies that you are increasing the layering by n(k) when the number of keys isn't going to dictate the map's layering: the mapper is going to dictate the map's layering. Think in a more unbiased scenario, where the number of keys is not going to dictate the layering -- let's say we have an area of the song where there is a single synth in a melody and nothing more, and it's running at 1/4 snap at 150 BPM (to make your 10 notes/s example). In an instance where we have the same structure, it's going to depend strictly on patterning. Something that frequently leans towards one hand on 6K/7K/8K is obviously going to be more difficult than just about any 4K stream because you have a massive amount of patterning permutations. Likewise, a fluent stream on 6K/7K/8K is likely going to feel easier than a fluent stream on 4K to an experienced player because the overall feel is more natural.

Assessing at 17.5 N/S is a huge way to illustrate that chart compositions on 4K/7K are extremely different. To get an idea of how fast this is: 17.5 N/S is equal to 262.5 BPM 1/4 snapped stream, which is incredibly fast. Agka's point holds true again: the intensity would feel considerably higher on 4K because there are less patterns to choose from, whereas a 6/7/8K situation would a bit smoother. Cramming 17.5 n/s requires you to hit 1050 notes in 1 minute. This is achievable under easier circumstances in higher key values: taking a look at another musical example, we'll assume that a section has a bass drum hitting every beat in a measure, snare drum hitting beats 2 and 4 every measure, clap hitting beats 2 and 4 every measure, a closed hi-hat running on the up-beat of every beat, falling in between your bass drum, snare drum, and clap in even intervals, and a melody running straight 1/4 stream (a basic/generic song structure). Most 7K/8K map would be able to handle layering this directly, accounting for every sound appropriately, but the layering would be heavy. However, the 4K map would have to compensate to make the chart reasonably playable, possibly being forced to ignore the fact that a snare/clap exists at certain points to more suitably account for the melody.

Xcrypt said it best:

Xcrypt wrote:

if you have the same density per lane, then the higher keymode would most likely be quite a bit more difficult, due to needing more muscle memory and reading skill to deal with all the patterns.
if you have the same density overall, then the lower keymode would probably be quite a bit more difficult due to the fact that you have a lot more strain on less fingers.

In a situation where there are no repeated notes over a given even interval, a per-lane density would prove that the higher key amount gets more difficulty because there are a lot more keys to handle at once. If you were to spread patterns out in such a way on 4K with a per-lane density of 4 n/s, you would have a 16 n/s stream assuming that the patterns are evenly distributed. If the same were to happen in 8k, well... you'd likely be in big trouble, haha. These are very extreme and unlikely circumstances, though.

EBAWER123 wrote:

I'd like to ask you - mania players about a certain thing. What do you think is harder/easier or same difficulty. Let's take 2 maps: 4k and 7k. Let's pretend that note density of each one is same and bpm is same. For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation. How would you judge the skill required to play these maps? We can also take it a step further to use all our fingers and say, use a 10k map with a density of 25 notes/s.

The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.

peppy wrote:

The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.

No matter how difficulty calculation is done, it will never function well on a ranking system where different key modes share the same ranking. Each key mode is a completely different game which requires different skills, and players are not exclusively better or worse than each other in a global "mania" way.

i.e. If I play with a similar level 4K player (being a 7K player myself), he will consistently beat me on all 4K maps we play, but if we play 7K I will consistently beat him on all maps we play. Neither of us is better or worse at "mania"; (note that I'm only mentioning 4K and 7K as those are the two most popular modes in o!m) he is better at physical precision with fast notes as well as vertical reading which are the main skills in lower key mode whereas I'm better at reading density and wide notes which are prevalent only in a higher key mode. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is either better or worse will be completely random based on arbitrary parameters and won't really reflect anything.

No matter how it's done, each key mode is a different game that requires different skills. From a programmers point of view all of those mania key modes might seem very similar and you might assume there's only a small difference between them, but from a player's point of view the difference can be as big as being twice better in one key mode than another person but twice worse than him in another. The ranking will never be able to reflect this with a shared board for all.

Again it's important to stress, this is not a minor difference, this is as big as me being unable to pass a 4K map and barely getting 70% with nofail on it while a 4K player gets 95% S rank on it, whereas me being able to get 95% on a 7K map that the same 4K player can't pass at all and barely gets a D on. A ranking system that tells us that one of us is worse than the other at "mania" is a slap in the face considering the completely different skills involved.

If it's not possible to give a separate ranking per key mode, giving at least a separate 4K and All-K board will solve A LOT of problems as the vast majority (over 99%) of players either play exclusively 4K or all key modes available. This would solve a ton of ranking issues instantly that are otherwise not solvable at all and can only be subjectively addressed in a way that will either be unfair for 4K players or for higher-key players.

I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?

-Kamikaze- wrote:

I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp

AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.

People thinking 4k is always easier than higher key amounts *sigh*

each key has their own difficulty and 4k is not easier than 7k
i personally think that 7k is easier compare to 4k although i started playing mania with 4k

Xenlon wrote:

I found something that shouldn't be there

Here an example:

In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me

This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system

I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record

Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points

Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But


I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?

His 770.000 points with 4K are a lot better than your 815.000 points with 7K. Why you might ask? Because 4K gives a big score penalty! Relative to the maximum possible score he could have gotten he did a LOT better than you. Despite the 4K map being rated quite a bit easier than the 7K version (I checked!) his better play by a huge margin made up for that and earned him more pp.