is this why I fell from 350 to 5k rank ROFLBites wrote:
both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm
(my current BP are 2 mania 4K, all the rest non-keymodded converts except Sweet Rain [Normal])
is this why I fell from 350 to 5k rank ROFLBites wrote:
both DT and keymod converts will return to the PP algorithm
Yes. But even if you get 0pp for doing a score right now, this very score will resume to giving pp once difficulty per-keymod has been implemented. This means you're not losing anything in the long run by playing with keymods now.falkon13 wrote:
So just to check this at this moment in time playing a map with a keymod will give you 0pp?
Ouch.Staiain wrote:
To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill
I spoke up because I found it unfair for those who have skill with all key densities instead of people with one set density being in the top past those players. If anything, Staiain needs to improve his other key skills like every other player is doing instead of sticking to 4k just to farm.Halogen- wrote:
Ouch.Staiain wrote:
To me it just looks like October Scream is just a slow pp farmer that wants to ruin the game and stop actual skilled people from being able to get good ranks, rather than just suck it up and improve his own skill
Although, it's a quite deserved response considering that this thread was quiet until he called the situation bullshit and had a hissy-fit, haha
Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions.Halogen- wrote:
"rrtyui you need to improve your skill at other games rather than sticking to osu! standard to farm PP"
do you see where I am going with this? 4k and 7k might be in osu!mania, but they are different games. Different file structures, different attentions to detail, and different player groups. Stop trying to force players to play things they might not be interested in when they are more than proficient in the game that they desire to play. You are being inconsiderate, insulting, and just downright stupid.
I will level with people: auto-converts probably should take a massive deduction or shouldn't be ranked at all. I think that's largely agreeable. Attitudes like October Scream's are fostering negativity.
Standard is a totally different mode. There's difficulties that have the same goal and set up as the lower difficulty, but with more hits and faster reactions....and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?
What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.October Scream wrote:
if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world
What I'm getting at here is that standard will still use 2 keys or two mouse clicks, all it is is there will be harder things from the same map and different mappers. It's just placed differently. Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k, but they both have different key amounts, when standard, sticks with the same things through the whole mode, same with taiko and CtB.Halogen- wrote:
...and difficulties in o!m don't have lower difficulties set up with varying hits, HP drains, and other stats at all. People totally don't make tons of difficulties for the same keys. What are you getting at?
This is a different game as well. I see your points, but I'm not acknowledging them or saying my minds set towards them. If you want me to say my opinions on yours, then just ask.Halogen- wrote:
they are different games.
I never said weak. I said lazy. If they don't want to learn how to play because they just want their same key amount, that's just lazy. If they don't want to learn because it's extremely difficult for them, then they should say and I'd understand. But instead, they defend themselves by saying "I'd like to see you try this." If they can say that, then I should be able to as well.Halogen- wrote:
Calling an ITG player useless because they can't play PIU is horrible and is a point that will likely get you in a lot of fire, because they are different games. Repeating this point with PIU -- you won't do well calling a PIU weak because they can't play half-double on ITG (6-key iteration), and you won't do well calling someone out on ITG double (8-key) for not being able to play Technomotion (9-key) much like you won't be able to get away with calling a Techmotion player weak because they can't play PIU double (10-key).
. Maybe I am, and I'm just not gonna reply about it.Halogen- wrote:
You're not understanding a very clear fundamental point here,
thank you, case closedOctober Scream wrote:
Mania can have the same intensity and challenge from a 4k and a 7k
What if ideu-, Entozer, or some other player was the best 7k player in the world? Would they stick to just 7k?Staiain wrote:
What if this actually was the case, and one of the reasons why I stick to 4k for the most part, and play stuff on DT because I can and legit enjoy it and not because I'm trying to farm, ever considered that? Reason I became more or less the world's top 4k player is because I enjoyed it a lot and stuck with it for years, I played 6k and a bit 7k too but just because i'm not equally skilled in all modes you don't have the right to condescend me.October Scream wrote:
if Staiain is the best 4k player in the world
I played some 4k converts because o!m lacks a large variety of 4k specific charts and i ran out of stuff to play that provides an enjoyable challenge to me, and people wanted me to score on them while they spectated that day.
Well, that makes me feel better......Halogen- wrote:
This really has gotten out of hand, and it's all because of one person (who in my opinion, really doesn't know a lot about what they're talking about).
For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation.The unfortunate matter is that you simply can't judge based off of the note density itself, because patterns are going to be inherently harder on 4K than 7K for different reasons. Despite only using index/middle or middle/ring, there are some patterns that are going to lend themselves to more difficulty. Assuming that there's no crazy patterns, and that doubles are used regularly/alternated, you can expect more patterns on 4K to be anchor-heavy (an anchor is a situation where the same arrow implicitly/explicitly repeats multiple times) because there's less room to play with layering in charts. Being that there are less pattern combinations overall on 4K, Agka brings up an arguable point:
Before going on though, I do want to make a note that overall note density shouldn't be increased simply because there are more keys: this simply implies that you are increasing the layering by n(k) when the number of keys isn't going to dictate the map's layering: the mapper is going to dictate the map's layering. Think in a more unbiased scenario, where the number of keys is not going to dictate the layering -- let's say we have an area of the song where there is a single synth in a melody and nothing more, and it's running at 1/4 snap at 150 BPM (to make your 10 notes/s example). In an instance where we have the same structure, it's going to depend strictly on patterning. Something that frequently leans towards one hand on 6K/7K/8K is obviously going to be more difficult than just about any 4K stream because you have a massive amount of patterning permutations. Likewise, a fluent stream on 6K/7K/8K is likely going to feel easier than a fluent stream on 4K to an experienced player because the overall feel is more natural.Agka wrote:
Under a different number of keys, an equal density would lead to the intensity being major more likely on the lower amount of keys.
In a situation where there are no repeated notes over a given even interval, a per-lane density would prove that the higher key amount gets more difficulty because there are a lot more keys to handle at once. If you were to spread patterns out in such a way on 4K with a per-lane density of 4 n/s, you would have a 16 n/s stream assuming that the patterns are evenly distributed. If the same were to happen in 8k, well... you'd likely be in big trouble, haha. These are very extreme and unlikely circumstances, though.Xcrypt wrote:
if you have the same density per lane, then the higher keymode would most likely be quite a bit more difficult, due to needing more muscle memory and reading skill to deal with all the patterns.
if you have the same density overall, then the lower keymode would probably be quite a bit more difficult due to the fact that you have a lot more strain on less fingers.
The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.EBAWER123 wrote:
I'd like to ask you - mania players about a certain thing. What do you think is harder/easier or same difficulty. Let's take 2 maps: 4k and 7k. Let's pretend that note density of each one is same and bpm is same. For example 4k map has a density of let's say 10 notes/s and 7k has a density of 17.5 notes/s due to having more keys. Even though the number is different for each but is the same considering we have different amount of keys. Let's also pretend these maps are without crazy patterns, just simple triplets, doubles and alternation. How would you judge the skill required to play these maps? We can also take it a step further to use all our fingers and say, use a 10k map with a density of 25 notes/s.
No matter how difficulty calculation is done, it will never function well on a ranking system where different key modes share the same ranking. Each key mode is a completely different game which requires different skills, and players are not exclusively better or worse than each other in a global "mania" way.peppy wrote:
The number of unique key jumps in patterns should definitely be considered. The "stress" of a pattern is affected by how often new keys are introduced. "Note density" should already account for this, and if I know tom, it already does.
AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
His 770.000 points with 4K are a lot better than your 815.000 points with 7K. Why you might ask? Because 4K gives a big score penalty! Relative to the maximum possible score he could have gotten he did a LOT better than you. Despite the 4K map being rated quite a bit easier than the 7K version (I checked!) his better play by a huge margin made up for that and earned him more pp.Xenlon wrote:
I found something that shouldn't be there
Here an example:
In this case you have to notice that Zumokuta has a better Rank and a higher level (its not given in the Picture)then me
This is not a complaint against Zumokuta,this is against the PP-system
I noticed that a few guys got a better country rank then me so I decided to look at Zumokutas Top Ranks and I noticed 2 things
1.About 80-90% 4k (I think)
IF the PP-system stays like it is in this moment,then I want seperate rankings for 4k and 7k
2.I noticed this record
Zumokuta finished the map with the mod 4k,99% and round about 770.000 points
Then I played the map by myself,BUT I played with 7k,95-96% and 815.000 points
But
I got like 4pp and Zumokuta round about 50pp,but I have more points and played it with 7k(If you not already noticed,this converted map is 7k)
This get me to the point that the current system is NOT interested in the amount of points you got.
Its just interested in your accuracy ,which make it easier to get lots of pp when you are a 4k player.
I am wrong or is this really a problem in the current system?
Actually I disagree with this after rethinking it number of times, but anyway the problem is that AC's give too much pp and should we wieghted less, all slow streams maps like this or this are giving so much pp, that they tend to overtake good scores on hard mania chartsTaronia wrote:
AGREED! I'm tired of seeing 7K players getting the higher score just because 8K has a restriction.-Kamikaze- wrote:
I think scores should be weighted higher if it's higher key count but not by much, example:
4k-0,9
5k-0,93
6k-0,96
7k-1
8k-1,03
so there will be no going for easy 4k maps in order to get pp
Judging from this and the mostly similar opinions I'll have adjust the difficulty algorithm, so it can give more sensible values for 4K vs 7K maps. It should be noted, though, that the 7K version already _IS_ considered harder. Just not by enough to outweight the score differences you had relative to the maximum possible scores.Xenlon wrote:
Ok,I played this map again but with 4k and got 765.000 points.
I personally think the 7k version is harder then the 4k,but thats not the point.
The first time I got 815.000 points and thats more then 765.000,so the first try is my Top Score.
Does this mean that I have to play some maps with 4k and 99% ,when I could pass them with 7k and 95-96%,just for the Top Score?
I think the same 7k converted map is always easier in 4k then in 7k ,but I want to play with 7k,because 4k isn't challenging me enough.
(This is my opinion,because I never saw a converted map that is easier in 7k then in 4k)
I plan to make quite some changes to the mania difficulty algorithm. Yes, easier 4K diffs are overrated and higher ones underrated. And yes, the algorithm overrates certain patterns in general by a lot, which is bad.Luna wrote:
My thoughts as a noob mania player:
4k is overrated at the low level, but underrated for high tier maps.
After accumulating over 1.5k plays of 7k, I tried out 4k for maybe ~150 plays. Now I have 18 4k maps in my top 20 performances (and more beyond that, but I'm too lazy to count). I mean, I probably have an advantage with 4k-type modes due to my taiko experience, but I really don't think it should outscale my 7k performances that easily.
The point is, all of the 4k maps I played are extremely easy to read with simple patterns - yet they are rated as harder than much more complex 7k maps with a similar overall note density. I'm making assumptions about your calculation methods here, but maybe you could scale down the weight of per-lane density for low density values (keep it the same or even increase it for really high density)?
On the other hand, the hardest 4k maps are weirdly underrated. Imperishable Night 2006, Bangin' Burst and Kamui are all listed as "I"-level difficulties instead of "X". That can't be right, can it?
My top 7k performance also feels a bit out-of-place. Personally I feel like my FC on Utakata, Ai no Mahoroba [LV.14] should be my top performance, but the algorithm considers Stella [Pro Drum] better. I assume it's because of accuracy since Stella uses OD9, but even so, Stella has a slightly inflated star rating in my opinion. The map uses a lot of chords, but that's about it. They are not even hard chords at all, since most of them are symmetrical and extremely repetitive. And I didn't even FC or anything. So maybe reduce difficulty of highly symmetrical maps if others get the same impression from higher level maps?
Easy increases the HitWindow and decreases the accuracy pp you can get for your score by doing that. At your accuracy of ~88% you barely get any accuracy point anyway, so Easy won't really make a difference apart from allowing you to pass the map more easily. You would probably get a lot more pp by getting better scores and accuracy on slightly easier maps. Mind trying out and confirming, denying?Fudgyking wrote:
There seams to be something very broken about easy mod. I first played this map : https://osu.ppy.sh/b/279134 with the EZ mode and got a low 300k score with a 88,6% accuracy which then appeared on my top5 best performance on my profile. So, I decided to beat my score without the mode to get an even better performance. I got 2x my old score BUT a 87,8% accuracy and then I suddenly lost 22 global pp. When I went to my profile, my score went from being worth 180~pp to 116pp.
It doesn't look like the EZ mod gives any kind of penalty and thus can be used to pass maps way easily and still get a better performance then when you don't use it...
Ok here is my feeback. I played this map until I somehow manage to beat my EZ accuracy with no mod and I finally managed to get a 89,25% accuracy. I then went to my profile to see how much pp it was worth now and..... it was worth a mere 158pp; way less than the 181pp my 88,61% EZ mod score gave me. I do not understand how this can be possible if there is truly a decrease in the accuracy pp.Tom94 wrote:
Easy increases the HitWindow and decreases the accuracy pp you can get for your score by doing that. At your accuracy of ~88% you barely get any accuracy point anyway, so Easy won't really make a difference apart from allowing you to pass the map more easily. You would probably get a lot more pp by getting better scores and accuracy on slightly easier maps. Mind trying out and confirming, denying?
Can someone compare Easy with nomod while doing higher accuracy runs? Anything from 90% - 100% is fine, more feedback is always good.