mike6649 wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Both. I lost pp, therefore I lost rank. And its not just a minor drop of pp, it was up to 10% of my total pp (1100 -> 1000)

silmarilen wrote:

qualified maps do give pp, if it didnt get into your top performance it means you didnt get enough pp from it.

Image

tastystew wrote:

The second song, according to osu!tp calculator, is 17 levels higher. You performed reasonably well for it, so I guess it awarded you more pp.

silmarilen wrote:

all the maps currently in your top performance are higher tp lvl than this map, if you add the relatively low acc to that it makes sense that it isnt in your top performance.

Squigly wrote:

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.

SPOILER

at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.

SPOILER

this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.

Tom94 wrote:

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

Ultrayano wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

What is the standard Map diff for 12k Plays ? Maps like TJ.Hangneil - Kamui [SHD]?

Tom94 wrote:

Why would it depend on the amount of plays? It doesn't. It depends on how much pp you already have, or more precisely, on how good your best scores already are. If you have tons of crazy scores like thelewa for example, then you would get pretty much nothing from a Kamui FC. If you only have mediocre Insane scores, then a Kamui FC would give you a lot.

Tom94 wrote:

Squigly wrote:

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.

SPOILER

at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.

SPOILER

this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

Keep in mind, that scores with many misses and a low accuracy are not considered a good performance, regardless of map. You shouldn't get pp for getting a D on big black + DT + NoFail, too, as an extreme example.

The reason you are losing ranks is that other people don't just stop improving. If people surpass your pp, then they rank up and you rank down. Nothing to do with the scores you set.

NixXSkate wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?pn=Winshley&bn=paraparamax

wailord2700 wrote:

my pp got deducted by 13 after i got 99.25% on a hard map with no mod. whats happening ;_;

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

Tom94 wrote:

wailord2700 wrote:

my pp got deducted by 13 after i got 99.25% on a hard map with no mod. whats happening ;_;

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

It doesn't matter how many maps you are playing if you don't play on par to your best scores. The system is supposed to rate how good you are performing, not how much you are performing. There is only a limited amount of pp you can gain by playing maps of the same level.

Considering the rank on a beatmap doesn't work for one simple reason: There are maps which have been played more than 1000 times as often as others, so simply taking the map rank into account doesn't work. "Consider map rank relative to total plays on the map then!", you might say, but that also doesn't work, because the better players tend to only play the harder maps, so the competition on easier maps is far more forgiving than on the harder maps.

Yasaburo wrote:

So I just lost 12pp after playing a map I had only played once before (about 3 minutes prior to that to be exact). I improved both my accuracy (and had fewer misses) and my combo. Also I didn't get any pp for my previous performance.
It's not a hard map at all and it was just to get warmed up really so I'm kind of confused as to what happened, I didn't expect it to influence my pp at all.

http://puu.sh/7iTA7.png

It doesn't bother me too much because pp isn't exactly important around my level but I thought I'd let you know since afaik PPv2 doesn't punish you for bad performances except when you overwrite an old score with worse accuracy etc.

If it was just due to another pp recalculation, please point me to the appropriate changelog entry.


Edit: Also, you did a great job on the new system overall, I haven't encountered any problems before this and I think it portrays my performance a lot better than PPv1 did, though I still feel like osu! thinks of me as a better player than I actually am.

Just happened to me as well; strange.
PP dropped by ±18 after doing this. If anything, shouldn't it increase instead of decreasing?
PP recalculation?

Squigly wrote:

And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

Squigly wrote:

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps

Novixion wrote:

Accuracy is indeed heavily weighted but it does not determine everything. It is mainly a tie breaker like it should be.

s4nji wrote:

Novixion wrote:

Accuracy is indeed heavily weighted but it does not determine everything. It is mainly a tie breaker like it should be.

I once did 98%, gained a couple of pp, great.
Then I replayed it with Hidden mod, 96% accuracy, but score is higher than the previous one, lost around half of it.
I am... not quite satisfied with this?

s4nji wrote:

I once did 98%, gained a couple of pp, great.
Then I replayed it with Hidden mod, 96% accuracy, but score is higher than the previous one, lost around half of it.
I am not quite satisfied with this... but it can't be helped I think; only the highest score is stored and used as the pp calculation.

Squigly wrote:

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps. But if it truly isnt going to9 affect your decisions with where to take this then i guess ill simply just stop.

Full Tablet wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?pn=Winshley&bn=paraparamax

That map requires almost no aim at all, and it is pretty slow.

As for the accuracy. OD5 is relatively low.
According to the "expected unstable rate" formula:
SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing a 2-minute Insane OD7 with 435 circles (considering you can retry paraparaMAX 2 times per hour of playing without breaks, and you can retry the Insane map 30 times).
Or SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing an Insane OD7 with 105 circles (assuming each map was played only once and there weren't "lucky" plays).

Wishy wrote:

You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.

NixXSkate wrote:

Only 2 people could SS it despite its popularity for a reason.

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Then how about getting a new rank on a random insane, then getting inside rank 1000 with a 99% acc+ then losing pp (1-5pp)?

That "can't lose pp" is such the case during the past system but something is different now. There are even people losing 3 digit pps for some random reason

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Brimroth wrote:

Ever since I got through airman (only a day or 2 ago) without any mods, it has felt as though every score has taken my rank down but simultaneously upped my pp. Tell me, am I drunk, is the pp system favoring accuracy more, or am I AND the pp system drunk? (recently DT'D a hard with 1 miss > +2pp but rank went down by 30, this triggered my need to stare at the rank)

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on

ntaig wrote:

I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?

Tom94 wrote:

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?

Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.

GoldenWolf wrote:

You probably don't get enough pp and people are outranking you in the meanwhile

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.

Brimroth wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?

Draxuss wrote:

Brimroth wrote:

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?

It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.

RaneFire wrote:

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on

Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.

Novixion wrote:

Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...
...
And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...

IamNotgod wrote:

Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy.

Keeby wrote:

It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o

Ultrayano wrote:

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o

Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)

Commy wrote:

well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position

Soinou wrote:

Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)

Novixion wrote:

With the amount of pp you have and the accuracy of those scores, you wouldn't get much pp. To get accuracy pp you need >99%, which is why DT, which grants aim and speed, gives more points.

Ziggo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)

The difference is, that SS'ing OD8 gives a lot of accuracy points, while OD10 97% gives practically nothing.

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

Example of an OD8 map

GhostFrog wrote:

If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

RaneFire wrote:

People playing OD8 maps with high accuracy could very well be hitting as accurately as OD10 players, but it doesn't matter because it's within that margin anyway.

RaneFire wrote:

That's a bit extreme and doesn't really bear extra weight to the argument because they're unrealistic situations.

HR players are rewarded properly for their accuracy in certain cases.

GhostFrog wrote:

Then remove the extreme part of it. If you FC a CS4 map, don't you think it's reasonably likely you could have FCed it on CS4.2 (CS3 + HR)? If so, should you be given extra aim points for that possibility?

GhostFrog wrote:

Are you referring to the EYES OF DEVILELIET scores you posted? That map is OD7. OD9.8 is harder compared to OD7 than OD10 is compared to OD8. I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

RaneFire wrote:

Yes, but getting an SS on that map with OD7, or even just 99%, is many times more difficult than getting 97% on other OD10 maps because of the way it's made.

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

KaosFR wrote:

How does the algorithm work for accuracy ? Does it compute an estimated unstable rate (or a range) ?

Full Tablet wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

What calculation method did you use?

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm

Ziggo wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

Example of an OD8 map

Soinou wrote:

SPOILER

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm

The thing is that i'm not a DT player.

Well, sorry for my totally useless posts, it was just me trying to blame something for being bad, but well, I'll try to be a bit more clear about what I think even if nobody cares.

I think the problem with the current system is that it gives pp based on the difficulty of the maps.

However, what is difficulty ? How is it possible to accurately evaluate difficulty for every players ?

For example, like you all point out, my top scores are DT, but ... I find them really easy. I almost never practiced for DT, I just play DT from times to times and that's where I got these scores, which gave me a lot of pp because the system evaluates them as "hard", while they're kinda easy.

But, I got some HD scores only after a long long time practicing HD, and it took me several weeks training with this mod to have some scores like my 96% FC on Torikago, which is considered as bad by the system, because the map is not considered difficult, while this is very difficult for me.

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

I find this kinda sad.

But well, you'll probably say that it's just me trying to blame the system for being bad or something, or that I just suck, and i should stop/farm DT or anything else, so feel free to ignore me, delete my post or anything, I don't care.

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.

Soinou wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

GoldenWolf wrote:

you may not always get rewarded for something you find hard, but you'll get rewarded for something that is hard, depends on what you're good/bad at.

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.

Soinou wrote:

Yeah, but being "hard" or "easy" depends on the player, so how can you judge the difficulty of a map for every players, and say a map "is" hard ?

-Scylla- wrote:

It's best to just calculate based on what the mod changes on the map (for example, in my opinion, HD should give a similar bonus to HR for aim, since you have to aim for disappearing notes, while HR should give a significantly larger bonus than HD for accuracy, since HD doesn't alter the map's accuracy settings at all). But I think this has already been done quite well, and I don't think anyone should be trying to get the algorithms to change based on what they find easy or hard. It's different for everyone.

Alarido wrote:

Well, the calculation formulas are perfect now :3

just need two adjsutements:

Alarido wrote:

- fix star diff rating to reflect exactly the challenge level, according to the date in which a given map was ranked. Such challenge approaches varies from year to year, from epoque to epoque, so diff star rating would be made really great when it consider the epoque when the map got ranked (2007 maps challenge people in different fashion of current maps does). It would help with relax a bit with diff names, etc.

Alarido wrote:

- calculate a 'personal difficulty profile' for each player, so it'll take the correct pp/rank for each person according to relative skills, instead of pushing an universal skill profile for everyone.