Squigly wrote:

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps. But if it truly isnt going to9 affect your decisions with where to take this then i guess ill simply just stop.

Full Tablet wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?pn=Winshley&bn=paraparamax

That map requires almost no aim at all, and it is pretty slow.

As for the accuracy. OD5 is relatively low.
According to the "expected unstable rate" formula:
SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing a 2-minute Insane OD7 with 435 circles (considering you can retry paraparaMAX 2 times per hour of playing without breaks, and you can retry the Insane map 30 times).
Or SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing an Insane OD7 with 105 circles (assuming each map was played only once and there weren't "lucky" plays).

Wishy wrote:

You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.

NixXSkate wrote:

Only 2 people could SS it despite its popularity for a reason.

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Kunino Sagiri wrote:

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Then how about getting a new rank on a random insane, then getting inside rank 1000 with a 99% acc+ then losing pp (1-5pp)?

That "can't lose pp" is such the case during the past system but something is different now. There are even people losing 3 digit pps for some random reason

Wishy wrote:

If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

Brimroth wrote:

Ever since I got through airman (only a day or 2 ago) without any mods, it has felt as though every score has taken my rank down but simultaneously upped my pp. Tell me, am I drunk, is the pp system favoring accuracy more, or am I AND the pp system drunk? (recently DT'D a hard with 1 miss > +2pp but rank went down by 30, this triggered my need to stare at the rank)

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on

ntaig wrote:

I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?

Tom94 wrote:

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?

Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.

GoldenWolf wrote:

You probably don't get enough pp and people are outranking you in the meanwhile

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.

Brimroth wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?

Draxuss wrote:

Brimroth wrote:

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?

It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.

RaneFire wrote:

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on

Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.

Novixion wrote:

Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...
...
And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...

IamNotgod wrote:

Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy.

Keeby wrote:

It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o

Ultrayano wrote:

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o

Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)

Commy wrote:

well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position

Soinou wrote:

Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)

Novixion wrote:

With the amount of pp you have and the accuracy of those scores, you wouldn't get much pp. To get accuracy pp you need >99%, which is why DT, which grants aim and speed, gives more points.

Ziggo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)

The difference is, that SS'ing OD8 gives a lot of accuracy points, while OD10 97% gives practically nothing.

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

Example of an OD8 map

GhostFrog wrote:

If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

RaneFire wrote:

People playing OD8 maps with high accuracy could very well be hitting as accurately as OD10 players, but it doesn't matter because it's within that margin anyway.

RaneFire wrote:

That's a bit extreme and doesn't really bear extra weight to the argument because they're unrealistic situations.

HR players are rewarded properly for their accuracy in certain cases.

GhostFrog wrote:

Then remove the extreme part of it. If you FC a CS4 map, don't you think it's reasonably likely you could have FCed it on CS4.2 (CS3 + HR)? If so, should you be given extra aim points for that possibility?

GhostFrog wrote:

Are you referring to the EYES OF DEVILELIET scores you posted? That map is OD7. OD9.8 is harder compared to OD7 than OD10 is compared to OD8. I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

RaneFire wrote:

Yes, but getting an SS on that map with OD7, or even just 99%, is many times more difficult than getting 97% on other OD10 maps because of the way it's made.

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

KaosFR wrote:

How does the algorithm work for accuracy ? Does it compute an estimated unstable rate (or a range) ?

Full Tablet wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.

What calculation method did you use?

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm

Ziggo wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.

Example of an OD8 map

Soinou wrote:

SPOILER

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm

The thing is that i'm not a DT player.

Well, sorry for my totally useless posts, it was just me trying to blame something for being bad, but well, I'll try to be a bit more clear about what I think even if nobody cares.

I think the problem with the current system is that it gives pp based on the difficulty of the maps.

However, what is difficulty ? How is it possible to accurately evaluate difficulty for every players ?

For example, like you all point out, my top scores are DT, but ... I find them really easy. I almost never practiced for DT, I just play DT from times to times and that's where I got these scores, which gave me a lot of pp because the system evaluates them as "hard", while they're kinda easy.

But, I got some HD scores only after a long long time practicing HD, and it took me several weeks training with this mod to have some scores like my 96% FC on Torikago, which is considered as bad by the system, because the map is not considered difficult, while this is very difficult for me.

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

I find this kinda sad.

But well, you'll probably say that it's just me trying to blame the system for being bad or something, or that I just suck, and i should stop/farm DT or anything else, so feel free to ignore me, delete my post or anything, I don't care.

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.

Soinou wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

GoldenWolf wrote:

you may not always get rewarded for something you find hard, but you'll get rewarded for something that is hard, depends on what you're good/bad at.

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.

Soinou wrote:

Yeah, but being "hard" or "easy" depends on the player, so how can you judge the difficulty of a map for every players, and say a map "is" hard ?

-Scylla- wrote:

It's best to just calculate based on what the mod changes on the map (for example, in my opinion, HD should give a similar bonus to HR for aim, since you have to aim for disappearing notes, while HR should give a significantly larger bonus than HD for accuracy, since HD doesn't alter the map's accuracy settings at all). But I think this has already been done quite well, and I don't think anyone should be trying to get the algorithms to change based on what they find easy or hard. It's different for everyone.

Alarido wrote:

Well, the calculation formulas are perfect now :3

just need two adjsutements:

Alarido wrote:

- fix star diff rating to reflect exactly the challenge level, according to the date in which a given map was ranked. Such challenge approaches varies from year to year, from epoque to epoque, so diff star rating would be made really great when it consider the epoque when the map got ranked (2007 maps challenge people in different fashion of current maps does). It would help with relax a bit with diff names, etc.

Alarido wrote:

- calculate a 'personal difficulty profile' for each player, so it'll take the correct pp/rank for each person according to relative skills, instead of pushing an universal skill profile for everyone.

RaneFire wrote:

When selecting "osu!" on the beatmap listing, is it possible to make the "sort by difficulty" ignore difficulties from other game modes in the same mapset as standard difficulties? Bunch of apples and drums amongst the stars are bringing far too many irrelevant maps to the top, because of their SR, when trying to look for standard difficulties. Or is there some technicality preventing that? (Not talking about entire mapsets devoted to taiko/ctb/mania)

Draxuss wrote:

Open "osu!" collection.

Lancelot wrote:

So far I think that the rank are accurate. I went to 130k to 70k after the update.
But I feel like there's something wrong , one of my friend is better than me but his rank is lower than mine
probably because he don't fc song but he can acutally plays 0108 songs and I cannot .

Lancelot wrote:

So far I think that the rank are accurate. I went to 130k to 70k after the update.
But I feel like there's something wrong , one of my friend is better than me but his rank is lower than mine
probably because he don't fc song but he can acutally plays 0108 songs and I cannot .

-Scylla- wrote:

Not really. You will still gain pp if you do a good performance on a hard map without FC'ing it. I remember getting more pp for passing (but with a relatively high combo) Yumemi Sunrise [Insane] than for silver SS'ing both Signal Graph [Insane] and One Reason [Insane].

It all has to do with how hard the map is as compared to how much pp you already have. Obviously, the more pp you have, the better your performances have to be for an increase in pp (if that wasn't the case, pp should be thrown out right away), and above-average performances give above-average pp. Not that you shouldn't learn how to FC hard maps, but do keep in mind that you'll be awarded for your performance (given that your top performance is also your #1 score)

UsaTewi wrote:

Why is this map only rated 1.60 star?
It's a map that almost no one can FC with HR ...

RaneFire wrote:

UsaTewi wrote:

Why is this map only rated 1.60 star?
It's a map that almost no one can FC with HR ...

Too many breaks in continuity. Mapping style is not intuitive. The map doesn't even feel right for the music.

The algorithm can't accurately weight complexity at present, but I doubt it's just that. The music plays a part.

It's probably mostly due to those stepped streams though.

UsaTewi wrote:

It's just tsuka's mapping style. I think it matches the music pretty well.

Whether you like it or not, it has a jumpy part, and is obvious not a [Hard] map.

edit: Oh, I just saw your last sentence

miharih wrote:

Doesn't the star difficulty affect the amout of points you get? How will thet be handled, when the new star difficulty system gets implemented?

TheVileOne wrote:

I checked the new pp star rating for both of these difficulties and the Normal difficulty rates 1.87 compared to the Hard at 1.85. The Hard difficulty is clearly harder, despite the Normal having more clickable objects. The jumps in the Hard are much harder than any pattern in the Normal, so I think one more 100 shouldn't make that much of a difference in two maps that should be considered nearly equal in difficulty (supposedly), and certainly not enough to outweigh a Hidden mod play of it. Anyways the difficulty of the Normal should not be anywhere close to the difficulty in my Hard. It's not difficult to play.

I checked the new pp star rating for both of these difficulties and the Normal difficulty rates 1.87 compared to the Hard at 1.85. The Hard difficulty is clearly harder, despite the Normal having more clickable objects. The jumps in the Hard are much harder than any pattern in the Normal, so I think one more 100 shouldn't make that much of a difference in two maps that should be considered nearly equal in difficulty (supposedly), and certainly not enough to outweigh a Hidden mod play of it. Anyways the difficulty of the Normal should not be anywhere close to the difficulty in my Hard. It's not difficult to play.

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I found that https://osu.ppy.sh/b/10878 play isn't in my top performances as well. I know it's a Normal, but really I'm playing Flashlight with Hardrock for over 3 minutes and I only get 2 100s. I'm really surprised that this hasn't shown up higher. It is my most played song for a reason. This was not easy for me to get this score, mainly because of how awkward the note spacing is.

TheVileOne wrote:

I think note density is playing too high an importance in these cases. A higher note density does necessarily mean that a map is harder, and the opposite is true for a map will less note density. Also circle size and the smaller hit window when HardRock is applied doesn't seem to make a huge difference when you play with mods that inhibit your ability to be accurate. I'm not sure, I don't usually play with mods in standard.

TheVileOne wrote:

Longer maps with flashlight should definitely get more of a bonus than shorter maps and the difficulty raises extremely high when you get to harder difficulties. So much so that I wont even bother, but if I want to put the effort to spend 8 hours learning a normal map in Flashlight and FCing it I want to be rewarded. Skill with playing with accuracy reduction mods is more important than maps that just like to give you 100s without mods, because most likely the beat is awkward to follow.

TheVileOne wrote:

It just should count more than 1% difference in accuracy.

TheVileOne wrote:

0.44% difference is a lot lower? I think the hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference. And the star rating is not accurate. It says the Normal is harder than the Hard, which has substantially larger spacings at relatively the same BPM. The aim value for my Hard should be much higher than the Normal. This difference along with the Hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference in accuracy IMO. It doesn't make sense to start judging accuracy differences below 1% when you include mod weights in the mix. It just should count more than 1% difference in accuracy.

Edit: Well I beat my score on the normal and now it's even higher on the list. I can see why it's rated so highly, and it's a long map. I can still play it much more consistently than I can Raise This Barn Hidden, which wears my arm out very quickly. ._.

PinkHusky wrote:

How big of a PP boost does a FC give? Since this is like osu!tp would it be the misses that are hurting me greatly? I thought that was something peppy was trying to do away with?

On the song 1 Year 2 Months 20 Days (Mapped by Athena Tennos) - Difficulty "Neko" Using DT only I got as follows.

Score: 2,156,908 (x295) 90.96% DT
Current PP: 1808
New Score: 3,012,150 (x276) 95.74% DT
PP Change: 1809
New Score: 5,971,551 (x569) 93.99% DT
PP Change: 1830
New Score: 6,055,706 (x570) 95.31% DT
PP Change: 1835

An almost 5% accuracy increase gave me 1 PP.
A Score only increase and 2% accuracy decrease gave me 21 PP.
Then a small increase of 1.5% accuracy gave me 5 after that.

Intended? No misses the way to go?

PinkHusky wrote:

How big of a PP boost does a FC give? Since this is like osu!tp would it be the misses that are hurting me greatly? I thought that was something peppy was trying to do away with?

On the song 1 Year 2 Months 20 Days (Mapped by Athena Tennos) - Difficulty "Neko" Using DT only I got as follows.

Score: 2,156,908 (x295) 90.96% DT
Current PP: 1808
New Score: 3,012,150 (x276) 95.74% DT
PP Change: 1809
New Score: 5,971,551 (x569) 93.99% DT
PP Change: 1830
New Score: 6,055,706 (x570) 95.31% DT
PP Change: 1835

An almost 5% accuracy increase gave me 1 PP.
A Score only increase and 2% accuracy decrease gave me 21 PP.
Then a small increase of 1.5% accuracy gave me 5 after that.

Intended? No misses the way to go?

nooblet wrote:

Is it a direct relation like (combo/max combo)*(Rest of PP calculation)? I have an almost-FC score that I don't think I'll ever beat in accuracy (and it's second in my top plays), so I'm not sure if it's even worth the effort, I don't wanna end up losing PP for the loss in acc + combo gain.

The score

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Is it just me, or are more slider pattern oriented maps seemed to have low star ratings in comparison to more circle patten oriented maps.

For example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28425 (Black Rebel 3.43 stars) vs https://osu.ppy.sh/b/178966&m=0 (Talent Shredder 3.29 stars), but I am pretty sure most will agree that Talent Shredder is harder than Black Rebel.

Or take Skystar maps that frequently depend on you to leave sliders early to do jumps have lower star ratings than maps that depend on circle jumps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 (Maware (Skystar) 3.42 stars) and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L (Skystar) 3.38 stars ) versus Fycho's https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122233 (Univer Page 3.33 stars) or https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L 3.52 stars )

(Sorry for the limited selection of songs, mostly just using the songs I was farming recently)