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Performance Points feedback and suggestions (Standard)

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RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
It's really depressing that people will ask the same question that Wishy gave an answer for, ON THE SAME PAGE, and the next page... a few more times... and has been answered in numerous separate topics, and previously in this thread by other people MULTIPLE times.

Your rank does not update every second, or hour, or even day. The act of making a new score forces an update of your rank. Sometimes it can not be updated for up to 3 days, in my case, then I make a new score and it updates and I "lose" 50 ranks. People passed me in PP while I wasn't playing. How hard is that to grasp?

There are only 2 ways you can lose PP... when the algorithm updates, or you make a worse performance overwriting an existing score. You lose ranks all the time, because everyone else is increasing their PP faster than you... BY PLAYING THE DAMN GAME AND GETTING BETTER INSTEAD OF WHINING ABOUT IT.

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on
Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.
laref
48 posts
Joined September 2013
laref
I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion

ntaig wrote:

I've not seen this asked yet. How much does the spinner mod affect pp?
Probably counts as a normal hit in terms of accuracy. Might contribute to speed?
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen

Tom94 wrote:

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?
Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

GoldenWolf wrote:

You probably don't get enough pp and people are outranking you in the meanwhile
Outranking shouldn't matter now, that it is 100% based on the difficulty algorithm, unless it was changed into back into ranks mattering (which I personally disapprove of)

Edit: Brimroth achieved rank #283 on Rabpit - Sanctity [Hard] (osu!) this is the map, I just FC'd it with DT getting the rank you see, losing 23 ranks as I did it, but still acquiring 2 pp. Tom94, fix this please.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
are you serious?
PlasticSmoothie
242 posts
Joined March 2010
PlasticSmoothie
All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

Brimroth wrote:

PlasticSmoothie wrote:

All right guys.

What you need to realise is that there are others playing this game, and their rank can influence yours. How? If they're below you in overall rank (NOT A RANK ON A MAP) and then increase to being above you, you will drop 1, because now one more person is above you.

Now, there are a lot of people playing this game and so often many more than just one person will pass you overnight. When you then again play a song, your rank updates. You'll drop ranks because you gained no pp yet others passed you while you weren't playing/getting pp.

your rank does NOT update real-time, it updates EVERY TIME you set ANY KIND OF SCORE. So if it's been 24 hours since your lasts core, that's 24 hours of changes. Often at least one person will have passed you.
are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.
laeamminlakana
89 posts
Joined August 2013
laeamminlakana

Draxuss wrote:

Brimroth wrote:

are you implying that 30 people passed me (or the others, haven't read the thread) by more than 2 pp in about 2 hours?
It's 6:39PM UTC now, this is the online users count:
It can go as high as 10-11k from what I've seen, probably higher.
Do you really think 30 people is a lot? There is many people that are better than you, get over it.
s

I don't mind people being better than me, I mind the fact that it felt as though the system had messed up, but then I played an easy stream map and got like 40pp and figured screw blaming the system.
IamNotgod_old
IamNotgod_old

RaneFire wrote:

IamNotgod wrote:

For example, one of my friends who played mostly DT maps with low 90s accuracy suddenly got 95% overall accuracy after the most recent recalculation. Also, all his DT scores got removed from his top performances aside from the only one he had a FC on
Sigh...

Unless you're Jesus, you won't get PP doing that.
I don't understand why you would just discount that. No, he's not as good as you in the top 1000s, but he was still a decent player at least at 14k. Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy. Nothing shows what we both consider to be his best plays. I remember seeing something along the lines of some profile page rework maybe in the feature requests. Perhaps we could also include a new, separate section for the profile where a user can select 10 performances that they themselves feel showcase their own skill rather than only the 10 giving the most pp being shown.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion
Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...

7.77??
Airman
Insanes are now ~3

And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...
S o h
Global Moderator
161 posts
Joined January 2013
S o h
This thread isn't for people that are bad with math

or logic in general
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Novixion wrote:

Is the new star system out? I noticed the star rating on some maps have already changed...
...
And I thought 5.00+ are hard to find...
I saw everything become [N], for normals, for a couple of minutes only 2 days ago. I was about to say "I can't even pass normals now" but then it was fixed to represent E/N/H properly with lower star values. Changelog says this was changed on the 27th Feb though, I guess there was some delay.

Yeah very few maps are above 4 stars now, it's practically only the maps on the first page of "sort by difficulty."

IamNotgod wrote:

Literally 7/10 of his top performances were non full combo DTs before the most recent update. I'm not complaining that the updates made him lose rank. In fact, he barely lost any. All that I was saying is that his new top performances don't seem to show what he is good at. Now it shows some easy-medium difficulty FCs with only average accuracy.
I just made an assumption based on the zero info you gave. I don't know who he is, or what maps he's been playing. All I meant by "unless you're jesus" was that you would need some crazy speed just for the pp system to recognise your play if it is a low-acc, non-fc. General rule of thumb, as Tom has explained many times, is that it rates good performances first and foremost, not bad ones.

Hypothetically I could only play DT on insanes and get 60-70% all the time, and then play an easier map and FC it and go WTF. I think it's a matter of what you think you can do, but the system doesn't see it that way.
Keeby
50 posts
Joined July 2012
Keeby
It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Keeby wrote:

It would be nice to implement the star system in-game, if possible.
All planned.
george111cz
7 posts
Joined June 2013
george111cz
I have a question: Did something change in the past few days about calculating pp? I have noticed, that i'm not getting any pp for songs that i finish without full comboing them. So basically after few hours of trying i finally beat a song that is difficult for me, only to see +0 pp. But then i full combo some relatively easy song on Nightcore (+HardRock/Hidden, depends), where the main problem is not to fall asleep during playing and i'm rewarded with at least some pp.

I remember, that finishing difficult songs (for your current level of skill/pp) was always highly rewarded. Was this changed?

The second explanation is, that my performance points simply caught up with me and now i'm where i'm supposed to be (which would, honestly, be quite sad :-))

Well, either way, thanks for any responses in advance and have a nice day everyone :-)

EDIT: Just tried it, played http://osu.ppy.sh/b/46004 on NC, first try, not even knowing how the beatmap actually looks: +1 pp Not even S rank, 93% accuracy. For something like this i'd expect to get +0, seems weird to me.
Commy
6 posts
Joined August 2011
Commy
rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)
Commy
6 posts
Joined August 2011
Commy

Ultrayano wrote:

Commy wrote:

rank is not showing correctly for a long time, for example, it shows rank 1000 ingame but on site (rankings) it is 980, whats wrong? o.o
Rank isn't updating realtime now (Web)
well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position
JappyBabes
666 posts
Joined February 2011
JappyBabes

Commy wrote:

well, I dont think it is caused by updating because every single player (rrtyui, www and the others in top5 (?) no) has wrong rank written ingame, on site (profile), you can be #50 but it will still show #53 even if you never had this position
hakurei/shizuru/others that have temporary (i think) bans still have their ranks calculated etc
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
some players are hidden




Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
I know I must be annoying or everything, but ...



It's OD 10, there is lots of jumps, and it's not really the easiest map possible, but ...

It's not DT, so no pp.

Why ? ...

Edit :

Nah, OD 10 means nothing for ppv2 ...
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Because those maps aren't hard, OD10 isn't hard in itself when you only have 1/2 through the maps

Example: http://osutp.net/scores?pid=475021&s=3
All those maps are OD9.8/10 and pretty much the same accuracy (there are even SSes on the bottom), the acc value can change a lot depending on how hard the map actually is
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.
Novixion
92 posts
Joined July 2013
Novixion

Soinou wrote:

Well, i know that, but it's still hard for me, and pp was before something you gain when you improve.

I'm improving, because i'm doing scores i couldn't do before, and i'm not gaining anything.

It's like the game is saying i suck and i should stop playing, or go farm DT because now only DT is rewarded.
Before pp was farming all day.

With the amount of pp you have and the accuracy of those scores, you wouldn't get much pp. To get accuracy pp you need >99%, which is why DT, which grants aim and speed, gives more points.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

I'll assume they're mostly DT/speed based scores

The thing is, those HR scores you've set are far easier than all those DT scores, since the main gain of HR is accuracy, and those accuracies you've got being not so good, you won't gain much/anything from them
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou
Yeah, so in fact, it's all about DT, OR having 99% HR, which is kinda impossible for me right now.

So, in the end, i must DT, or do nothing at all ?

Pretty good ranking system, yeah
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)

This system rewards good performance, not crappy ones

If you can't get high accuracy, don't blame the system for not rewarding you; instead improve your accuracy and get some decent scores
Aqo
2,710 posts
Joined April 2010
Aqo
DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)
The difference is, that SS'ing OD8 gives a lot of accuracy points, while OD10 97% gives practically nothing.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Novixion wrote:

With the amount of pp you have and the accuracy of those scores, you wouldn't get much pp. To get accuracy pp you need >99%, which is why DT, which grants aim and speed, gives more points.
This is a pretty good point.

In fact DT increases all the attributes, even accuracy, but not as much as HR does. HR will mostly increase accuracy, so with the way the system works at present, DT is pretty much the way to go, unless you can SS OD10 like thelewa.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

Ziggo wrote:

GoldenWolf wrote:

Okay let's be honest, 97% OD10 is trash because it like OD8 SS, which is trivial (especially on those maps full of 1/2s / no stream)
The difference is, that SS'ing OD8 gives a lot of accuracy points, while OD10 97% gives practically nothing.
I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.
Example of an OD8 map
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

GhostFrog wrote:

If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.
Problem with this... is that it's only a margin for error, and thus scoring.

People playing OD8 maps with high accuracy could very well be hitting as accurately as OD10 players, but it doesn't matter because it's within that margin anyway. HR increases other aspects as well, like circle size and AR, adding some stress to the situation, which could affect your accuracy unless you're completely comfortable with it. Not many players can read AR10 absolutely comfortably, even if they can perform well at AR10.

You can't look at it as though they only have a OD8 level of accuracy, even if that's what the scoreboard says. Even though it is kinda unfair at the moment, "how much" is debatable because any modification would be arbitrary and based completely on opinion. Silmarilen already mentioned that SS'ing YAMAGEN'S DEVILELIET - EYES OF DEVILELIET is much more difficult than any of his other scores, even though it's OD is lower. The HR players are rewarded in this case though. So the problem is obviously the opinion of "base accuracy skill."
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

RaneFire wrote:

People playing OD8 maps with high accuracy could very well be hitting as accurately as OD10 players, but it doesn't matter because it's within that margin anyway.
People playing 180bpm stream maps could very well have the speed to play 240bpm stream maps. People playing a jump map nomod (or hey, with HR) could very well be hitting the exact center of every hitcircle and would still FC with CS13. It doesn't matter - a 180bpm stream map can't prove your ability to stream 240bpm and playing a CS4 map can't prove your ability to play CS7. While it's entirely possible some random person SSing OD8 would be getting high accuracy OD10 scores, playing OD8 doesn't test that and they deserve no extra reward for the *possibility* that they're better than their play demonstrates. If they want to be rewarded for good OD10 accuracy, they should find OD8 maps they can play with HR. It's unfortunate that HR will almost certainly make the map AR10 if the player can't read it, but the job of the ranking system isn't to determine whether or not the rules of the game make sense - it's to rate the performance of a player in a particular play.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
That's a bit extreme and doesn't really bear extra weight to the argument because they're unrealistic situations.

HR players are rewarded properly for their accuracy in certain cases.

Circle size barely factors into difficulty, unless they get really small. Speed is already considered fully and it doesn't change except with DT, which calculates a completely new difficulty.

Accuracy on the other hand, is not easy to measure. Ideally, everyone should be measured by the OD10 margin of error, and then you can extrapolate more accurate results. But it still won't be perfect, because mapping style can heavily affect your accuracy. Pattern complexity is coming... I hope.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

RaneFire wrote:

That's a bit extreme and doesn't really bear extra weight to the argument because they're unrealistic situations.
Then remove the extreme part of it. If you FC a CS4 map, don't you think it's reasonably likely you could have FCed it on CS4.2 (CS3 + HR)? If so, should you be given extra aim points for that possibility?

HR players are rewarded properly for their accuracy in certain cases.
Are you referring to the EYES OF DEVILELIET scores you posted? That map is OD7. OD9.8 is harder compared to OD7 than OD10 is compared to OD8. I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

GhostFrog wrote:

Then remove the extreme part of it. If you FC a CS4 map, don't you think it's reasonably likely you could have FCed it on CS4.2 (CS3 + HR)? If so, should you be given extra aim points for that possibility?
Maybe 1 more point? You should get a better understanding of how human beings perceive their environment. The approach circle scales with circle size as well, and in some cases I find it harder to read a map with very large circles as opposed to smaller ones. The map is also mapped according to the circle size, otherwise you will have weird spacing. So all in all, it's about what is appropriate, and CS plays a very small role in difficulty so long as it's appropriate. HR should increase the difficulty immensely in cases where the CS becomes obfuscated and patterns can no longer be hit in the nomod fashion.

GhostFrog wrote:

Are you referring to the EYES OF DEVILELIET scores you posted? That map is OD7. OD9.8 is harder compared to OD7 than OD10 is compared to OD8. I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.
Yes, but getting an SS on that map with OD7, or even just 99%, is many times more difficult than getting 97% on other OD10 maps because of the way it's made. If a map is not difficult to play in aim or speed, why should you get a full accuracy reward from HR?

Again... base accuracy skill... opinions.
Ziggo
121 posts
Joined March 2012
Ziggo

RaneFire wrote:

Yes, but getting an SS on that map with OD7, or even just 99%, is many times more difficult than getting 97% on other OD10 maps because of the way it's made.
Why do you want to compare this map with other maps? The point was comparing no mod and HR on the very same map. And the map you mentioned is really difficult with HR as well, so getting 97% with HR should easily be on a level with 100% no mod.
KaosFR
87 posts
Joined January 2011
KaosFR
How does the algorithm work for accuracy ? Does it compute an estimated unstable rate (or a range) ?
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.
What calculation method did you use?

If you interpolated this table http://www.mediafire.com/download/pgb55 ... te_v2.xlsx for the "99%confidence" value (guessing since it gives similar results to what you give), take into consideration that, for example, an unstable rate of 100 in a map of 1000 circles should hardly ever result in less than 93.75%accuracy on OD10. For comparing purposes I think low confidence percentages make more sense (since most records are from maps the players have retried several times).

KaosFR wrote:

How does the algorithm work for accuracy ? Does it compute an estimated unstable rate (or a range) ?
It uses a formula made by Tom94 http://pastebin.com/XDDgKEvw#_=_ (this pastebin is outdated though, it is probably somewhat different currently).
Last edited by Full Tablet , edited 1 time in total.
GhostFrog
416 posts
Joined March 2013
GhostFrog

Full Tablet wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I ran the same calculation as I did earlier - getting 97% consistently on OD9.8 (assuming normal distribution, hits centered at perfect timing) means getting > 99.98% consistently on OD7.
What calculation method did you use?
Something I assume is much less sophisticated than what the table uses. I found the standard deviation of hit timings that would give 97% accuracy on OD9.8 and found what percent of 300s that would give on OD7 (I basically counted 100s as misses instead to be on the safe side). If you're consistently getting that standard deviation, you should consistently be getting the corresponding OD7 accuracy, unless I did something wrong.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
Computers everywhere. Not one who plays the game.
silmarilen
5,582 posts
Joined February 2010
silmarilen
i personally find getting 97% on hr many times more difficult that getting (almost) SS on od8, but that's also because of the increased ar and circle size. usually if i can SS a map on nomod first try i get like 90-95% first try on hr (assuming i can play the map with hr, which i usually cant)
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm
The thing is that i'm not a DT player.

Well, sorry for my totally useless posts, it was just me trying to blame something for being bad, but well, I'll try to be a bit more clear about what I think even if nobody cares.

I think the problem with the current system is that it gives pp based on the difficulty of the maps.

However, what is difficulty ? How is it possible to accurately evaluate difficulty for every players ?

For example, like you all point out, my top scores are DT, but ... I find them really easy. I almost never practiced for DT, I just play DT from times to times and that's where I got these scores, which gave me a lot of pp because the system evaluates them as "hard", while they're kinda easy.

But, I got some HD scores only after a long long time practicing HD, and it took me several weeks training with this mod to have some scores like my 96% FC on Torikago, which is considered as bad by the system, because the map is not considered difficult, while this is very difficult for me.

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

I find this kinda sad.

But well, you'll probably say that it's just me trying to blame the system for being bad or something, or that I just suck, and i should stop/farm DT or anything else, so feel free to ignore me, delete my post or anything, I don't care.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

Ziggo wrote:

GhostFrog wrote:

I don't know exactly how pp handles OD or how it treats SS, but if you can consistently get 97% on OD10, then, assuming your hits are normally distributed and centered on the correct timing, you can consistently get > 99.9% on OD8. If 97% OD10 isn't giving comparable pp to OD8 SS (I don't know if it does or not), that's unfair to HR players.
Example of an OD8 map
Hmm, that's not exactly intended though. I'll try to make it more appropriate in that direction.
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet

Soinou wrote:

SPOILER

Aqo wrote:

DT players saying it's too easy to get points with DT and too hard with HR
HR players saying it's too easy with HR and too hard with DT


hmmmmmmmmmm
The thing is that i'm not a DT player.

Well, sorry for my totally useless posts, it was just me trying to blame something for being bad, but well, I'll try to be a bit more clear about what I think even if nobody cares.

I think the problem with the current system is that it gives pp based on the difficulty of the maps.

However, what is difficulty ? How is it possible to accurately evaluate difficulty for every players ?

For example, like you all point out, my top scores are DT, but ... I find them really easy. I almost never practiced for DT, I just play DT from times to times and that's where I got these scores, which gave me a lot of pp because the system evaluates them as "hard", while they're kinda easy.

But, I got some HD scores only after a long long time practicing HD, and it took me several weeks training with this mod to have some scores like my 96% FC on Torikago, which is considered as bad by the system, because the map is not considered difficult, while this is very difficult for me.

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.

I find this kinda sad.

But well, you'll probably say that it's just me trying to blame the system for being bad or something, or that I just suck, and i should stop/farm DT or anything else, so feel free to ignore me, delete my post or anything, I don't care.
You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.
Well, I know that the system can't compensate for everyone individually, but it feels kinda sad that the system rewards you for choosing simplicity over hard work.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf
@soinou
You're missing something though; it's not because you find something easy that it is easy, same when you find something hard it doesn't mean it is hard.

Example: I find these slow ar8 maps hard since I can't SS them, mostly because I suck at reading stuff, but it doesn't mean they're any hard.
So,

Soinou wrote:

The point I'm trying to make is that, with this system, you get rewarded doing something easy to achieve, and you get no reward doing something that took you a lot of training, and really hard to achieve.
you may not always get rewarded for something you find hard, but you'll get rewarded for something that is hard, depends on what you're good/bad at.
Soinou
747 posts
Joined June 2012
Soinou

GoldenWolf wrote:

you may not always get rewarded for something you find hard, but you'll get rewarded for something that is hard, depends on what you're good/bad at.
Yeah, but being "hard" or "easy" depends on the player, so how can you judge the difficulty of a map for every players, and say a map "is" hard ?
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

nooblet wrote:

You find the beatmaps with DT easy because you already have the skills and experience required to play it. Just because you didn't have to "work" for a certain score, doesn't mean it was an easy feat. Half of my top scores were done in less than 5 plays (complete fluke plays of course), while the other half I probably had to play up to probably 50 times over the course of a few weeks (Which is ridiculously high for me, I've never retried past 10 in one go).
The scores may have felt easy, but you wouldn't have been able to pull it off when you just started, right? Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses, the system can't compensate for everyone individually. In other words, what's easy for you may not be easy for others.
This is true. I've managed to do good performances on some maps easily that some of my friends couldn't do at all, even if they can easily clear maps I have lots of trouble with (For example, I FC'd LeaF - MEPHISTO, something none of my other friends managed to do, but I'm nearly at the bottom of my friends list on Nico Nico Chorus - Leia, even though the map isn't that hard). Everyone is good at different things, some people are better with higher AR's, others with lower ones, some are HR players, others HD players, and others DT players. You can't really say "X mod is easier than Y mod", since it varies for everyone. I find HR easier than HD, because I have trouble reading HD and perform better on AR10, even though I'm sure many people think HD is easier than HR.

It's best to just calculate based on what the mod changes on the map (for example, in my opinion, HD should give a similar bonus to HR for aim, since you have to aim for disappearing notes, while HR should give a significantly larger bonus than HD for accuracy, since HD doesn't alter the map's accuracy settings at all). But I think this has already been done quite well, and I don't think anyone should be trying to get the algorithms to change based on what they find easy or hard. It's different for everyone.
GoldenWolf
2,983 posts
Joined May 2012
GoldenWolf

Soinou wrote:

Yeah, but being "hard" or "easy" depends on the player, so how can you judge the difficulty of a map for every players, and say a map "is" hard ?
Some things are objectively hard; like a 129 circles stream at 222bpm
Other things are subjectively hard; like low AR, old maps, squares, ...
+

-Scylla- wrote:

It's best to just calculate based on what the mod changes on the map (for example, in my opinion, HD should give a similar bonus to HR for aim, since you have to aim for disappearing notes, while HR should give a significantly larger bonus than HD for accuracy, since HD doesn't alter the map's accuracy settings at all). But I think this has already been done quite well, and I don't think anyone should be trying to get the algorithms to change based on what they find easy or hard. It's different for everyone.
Alarido
1,744 posts
Joined September 2012
Alarido
Well, the calculation formulas are perfect now :3

just need two adjsutements:(many of you will NEVER understand what I said here - that's the cradle of eventual profanity against it).

- fix star diff rating to reflect exactly the challenge level, according to the date in which a given map was ranked. Such challenge approaches varies from year to year, from epoque to epoque, so diff star rating would be made really great when it consider the epoque when the map got ranked (2007 maps challenge people in different fashion of current maps does). It would help with relax a bit with diff names, etc.

- calculate a 'personal difficulty profile' for each player, so it'll take the correct pp/rank for each person according to relative skills, instead of pushing an universal skill profile for everyone.
Last edited by Alarido , edited 1 time in total.
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa

Alarido wrote:

Well, the calculation formulas are perfect now :3

just need two adjsutements:
Do you realize how hypocritical this is?

Alarido wrote:

- fix star diff rating to reflect exactly the challenge level, according to the date in which a given map was ranked. Such challenge approaches varies from year to year, from epoque to epoque, so diff star rating would be made really great when it consider the epoque when the map got ranked (2007 maps challenge people in different fashion of current maps does). It would help with relax a bit with diff names, etc.
This has already been asked, and it's not really high priority. Doing it based on date would be stupid, though a visible difficulty meter based on the map would be useful.

Alarido wrote:

- calculate a 'personal difficulty profile' for each player, so it'll take the correct pp/rank for each person according to relative skills, instead of pushing an universal skill profile for everyone.
I like this, but I think it's already been mentioned, and I recall Tom saying that he would probably implement it in the future.
sjoy
1,032 posts
Joined April 2012
sjoy
I think the length of the song can influence the PP in the same difficulty
Xevenst
25 posts
Joined May 2013
Xevenst
I have actually 915 pp,but after 3 days,I checked the pp again and it is 879, how could pp reducing?

please make it not reducing anymore if ranking reducing it's okay but please not the pp
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire
When selecting "osu!" on the beatmap listing, is it possible to make the "sort by difficulty" ignore difficulties from other game modes in the same mapset as standard difficulties? Bunch of apples and drums amongst the stars are bringing far too many irrelevant maps to the top, because of their SR, when trying to look for standard difficulties. Or is there some technicality preventing that? (Not talking about entire mapsets devoted to taiko/ctb/mania)

EDIT: I mean on the website.
Last edited by RaneFire , edited 1 time in total.
Horolynn
47 posts
Joined August 2010
Horolynn

RaneFire wrote:

When selecting "osu!" on the beatmap listing, is it possible to make the "sort by difficulty" ignore difficulties from other game modes in the same mapset as standard difficulties? Bunch of apples and drums amongst the stars are bringing far too many irrelevant maps to the top, because of their SR, when trying to look for standard difficulties. Or is there some technicality preventing that? (Not talking about entire mapsets devoted to taiko/ctb/mania)

Select "Mode" from the dropdown.

Open "osu!" collection.
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

Draxuss wrote:

Open "osu!" collection.
I meant on the website, which has the proper star difficulty rating. The osu! client does not at present.

"Beatmap Listing" is the web name. "Song Select" is the client name.
Lancelot
72 posts
Joined October 2013
Lancelot
So far I think that the rank are accurate. I went to 130k to 70k after the update.
But I feel like there's something wrong , one of my friend is better than me but his rank is lower than mine
probably because he don't fc song but he can acutally plays 0108 songs and I cannot .
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

Lancelot wrote:

So far I think that the rank are accurate. I went to 130k to 70k after the update.
But I feel like there's something wrong , one of my friend is better than me but his rank is lower than mine
probably because he don't fc song but he can acutally plays 0108 songs and I cannot .
I can also play (pass) 0108 songs or harder songs like HujuniseikouyuuP - Talent Shredder [Lesjuh Style] (3.63 Stars) or TJ.Hangneil - Kamui [SHD] (4.14 Stars)

If ppv2 would give you much PP for passing hard songs, then I would be Rank 5k+- 8k+-

Your friend and I should learn FC these Maps and not only to pass them :)
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
Not really. You will still gain pp if you do a good performance on a hard map without FC'ing it. I remember getting more pp for passing (but with a relatively high combo) Yumemi Sunrise [Insane] than for silver SS'ing both Signal Graph [Insane] and One Reason [Insane].

It all has to do with how hard the map is as compared to how much pp you already have. Obviously, the more pp you have, the better your performances have to be for an increase in pp (if that wasn't the case, pp should be thrown out right away), and above-average performances give above-average pp. Not that you shouldn't learn how to FC hard maps, but do keep in mind that you'll be awarded for your performance (given that your top performance is also your #1 score)

People should learn to at least skim the thread before posting.
tokaku
275 posts
Joined May 2013
tokaku

Lancelot wrote:

So far I think that the rank are accurate. I went to 130k to 70k after the update.
But I feel like there's something wrong , one of my friend is better than me but his rank is lower than mine
probably because he don't fc song but he can acutally plays 0108 songs and I cannot .
This basically means that his 0108 passes doesn't have as much skill as your other plays.
Yano
191 posts
Joined November 2012
Yano

-Scylla- wrote:

Not really. You will still gain pp if you do a good performance on a hard map without FC'ing it. I remember getting more pp for passing (but with a relatively high combo) Yumemi Sunrise [Insane] than for silver SS'ing both Signal Graph [Insane] and One Reason [Insane].

It all has to do with how hard the map is as compared to how much pp you already have. Obviously, the more pp you have, the better your performances have to be for an increase in pp (if that wasn't the case, pp should be thrown out right away), and above-average performances give above-average pp. Not that you shouldn't learn how to FC hard maps, but do keep in mind that you'll be awarded for your performance (given that your top performance is also your #1 score)
Yes it's how you said ... but FCing Maps is a better way to gain much PP
Also pass hard Maps give you much PP when your "skill level" is under the Map difficult but not as much as FCing Maps
Nyxa
848 posts
Joined October 2013
Nyxa
I noticed that, even if I play a Hard map with HDDT, where the HDDT Hard is harder than HD Insane, I still get more pp for the Insane. I don't really understand that. But maybe it's because I suck with DT, and generally get <97% accuracy on the Hard, while getting >98% accuracy on the Insane.
UsaTewi
17 posts
Joined November 2012
UsaTewi
Why is this map only rated 1.60 star?
It's a map that almost no one can FC with HR ...
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

UsaTewi wrote:

Why is this map only rated 1.60 star?
It's a map that almost no one can FC with HR ...
Too many breaks in continuity. Mapping style is not intuitive. The map doesn't even feel right for the music.

The algorithm can't accurately weight complexity at present, but I doubt it's just that. The music plays a part.

It's probably mostly due to those stepped streams though.
UsaTewi
17 posts
Joined November 2012
UsaTewi

RaneFire wrote:

UsaTewi wrote:

Why is this map only rated 1.60 star?
It's a map that almost no one can FC with HR ...
Too many breaks in continuity. Mapping style is not intuitive. The map doesn't even feel right for the music.

The algorithm can't accurately weight complexity at present, but I doubt it's just that. The music plays a part.

It's probably mostly due to those stepped streams though.
It's just tsuka's mapping style. I think it matches the music pretty well.

Whether you like it or not, it has a jumpy part, and is obvious not a [Hard] map.

edit: Oh, I just saw your last sentence
RaneFire
1,181 posts
Joined May 2011
RaneFire

UsaTewi wrote:

It's just tsuka's mapping style. I think it matches the music pretty well.

Whether you like it or not, it has a jumpy part, and is obvious not a [Hard] map.

edit: Oh, I just saw your last sentence
It's not about liking it or not. After playing many other maps, that style of mapping is particularly more difficult to anticipate with the music for some reason. Maybe a better player could give you a better answer, since it is subjective.

Yeah I've got pretty bad habits for ninja editing.
miharih
6 posts
Joined July 2013
miharih
Doesn't the star difficulty affect the amout of points you get? How will thet be handled, when the new star difficulty system gets implemented?
jesse1412
1,457 posts
Joined January 2010
jesse1412

miharih wrote:

Doesn't the star difficulty affect the amout of points you get? How will thet be handled, when the new star difficulty system gets implemented?
Pretty sure it's all already based on the 'new' method.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
I have a pp anomaly to report.

I have https://osu.ppy.sh/b/30275 in my top 10 performances without any mods, but I played https://osu.ppy.sh/b/212095 with Hidden and it's not in my top 10 performances, despite being much harder than the first example.

Normal

Hard


I checked the new pp star rating for both of these difficulties and the Normal difficulty rates 1.87 compared to the Hard at 1.85. The Hard difficulty is clearly harder, despite the Normal having more clickable objects. The jumps in the Hard are much harder than any pattern in the Normal, so I think one more 100 shouldn't make that much of a difference in two maps that should be considered nearly equal in difficulty (supposedly), and certainly not enough to outweigh a Hidden mod play of it. Anyways the difficulty of the Normal should not be anywhere close to the difficulty in my Hard. It's not difficult to play.

Also I found that https://osu.ppy.sh/b/10878 play isn't in my top performances as well. I know it's a Normal, but really I'm playing Flashlight with Hardrock for over 3 minutes and I only get 2 100s. I'm really surprised that this hasn't shown up higher. It is my most played song for a reason. This was not easy for me to get this score, mainly because of how awkward the note spacing is.

I think note density is playing too high an importance in these cases. A higher note density does necessarily mean that a map is harder, and the opposite is true for a map will less note density. Also circle size and the smaller hit window when HardRock is applied doesn't seem to make a huge difference when you play with mods that inhibit your ability to be accurate. I'm not sure, I don't usually play with mods in standard.

Longer maps with flashlight should definitely get more of a bonus than shorter maps and the difficulty raises extremely high when you get to harder difficulties. So much so that I wont even bother, but if I want to put the effort to spend 8 hours learning a normal map in Flashlight and FCing it I want to be rewarded. Skill with playing with accuracy reduction mods is more important than maps that just like to give you 100s without mods, because most likely the beat is awkward to follow.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost
Going to try to explain as best I can.

TheVileOne wrote:

I checked the new pp star rating for both of these difficulties and the Normal difficulty rates 1.87 compared to the Hard at 1.85. The Hard difficulty is clearly harder, despite the Normal having more clickable objects. The jumps in the Hard are much harder than any pattern in the Normal, so I think one more 100 shouldn't make that much of a difference in two maps that should be considered nearly equal in difficulty (supposedly), and certainly not enough to outweigh a Hidden mod play of it. Anyways the difficulty of the Normal should not be anywhere close to the difficulty in my Hard. It's not difficult to play.

I checked the new pp star rating for both of these difficulties and the Normal difficulty rates 1.87 compared to the Hard at 1.85. The Hard difficulty is clearly harder, despite the Normal having more clickable objects. The jumps in the Hard are much harder than any pattern in the Normal, so I think one more 100 shouldn't make that much of a difference in two maps that should be considered nearly equal in difficulty (supposedly), and certainly not enough to outweigh a Hidden mod play of it. Anyways the difficulty of the Normal should not be anywhere close to the difficulty in my Hard. It's not difficult to play.
HD increases the aim difficulty in the calculations by a percentage of it's value so at extremely low values, it's not going to add that much extra pp. Also, the ratio of 100:300 is a lot higher in the hard which shows that the amount of accuracy points you are getting is a lot lower in the hard.

TheVileOne wrote:

Also I found that https://osu.ppy.sh/b/10878 play isn't in my top performances as well. I know it's a Normal, but really I'm playing Flashlight with Hardrock for over 3 minutes and I only get 2 100s. I'm really surprised that this hasn't shown up higher. It is my most played song for a reason. This was not easy for me to get this score, mainly because of how awkward the note spacing is.
Again, FL scales with how much aim it gives normally.

TheVileOne wrote:

I think note density is playing too high an importance in these cases. A higher note density does necessarily mean that a map is harder, and the opposite is true for a map will less note density. Also circle size and the smaller hit window when HardRock is applied doesn't seem to make a huge difference when you play with mods that inhibit your ability to be accurate. I'm not sure, I don't usually play with mods in standard.
It does, but only if you do well.

TheVileOne wrote:

Longer maps with flashlight should definitely get more of a bonus than shorter maps and the difficulty raises extremely high when you get to harder difficulties. So much so that I wont even bother, but if I want to put the effort to spend 8 hours learning a normal map in Flashlight and FCing it I want to be rewarded. Skill with playing with accuracy reduction mods is more important than maps that just like to give you 100s without mods, because most likely the beat is awkward to follow.
Longer maps with FL already do give more bonus compared to shorter maps I think. The "FL should award more pp" debate is heavily opinionated and I personally think grinding a map for hours with the only difficulty increase being to memory (a skill that shouldn't even be in a rhythm game) should give stupidly large bonuses. Last sentence doesn't really make sense to me anyway.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
0.44% difference is a lot lower? I think the hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference. And the star rating is not accurate. It says the Normal is harder than the Hard, which has substantially larger spacings at relatively the same BPM. The aim value for my Hard should be much higher than the Normal. This difference along with the Hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference in accuracy IMO. It doesn't make sense to start judging accuracy differences below 1% when you include mod weights in the mix. It just should count more than 1% difference in accuracy.

Edit: Well I beat my score on the normal and now it's even higher on the list. I can see why it's rated so highly, and it's a long map. I can still play it much more consistently than I can Raise This Barn Hidden, which wears my arm out very quickly. ._. The only reason I get 100s in the Normal is that the OD is a tad high and it's easy to derp 100.
Almost
2,154 posts
Joined May 2012
Almost

TheVileOne wrote:

It just should count more than 1% difference in accuracy.
No, it should count every bit of accuracy. If you only counted accuracy differences of >1%, long songs where 10s of 100s may only count for a fraction of a percent would not be valued correctly.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

TheVileOne wrote:

0.44% difference is a lot lower? I think the hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference. And the star rating is not accurate. It says the Normal is harder than the Hard, which has substantially larger spacings at relatively the same BPM. The aim value for my Hard should be much higher than the Normal. This difference along with the Hidden bonus should outweigh a 0.44% difference in accuracy IMO. It doesn't make sense to start judging accuracy differences below 1% when you include mod weights in the mix. It just should count more than 1% difference in accuracy.

Edit: Well I beat my score on the normal and now it's even higher on the list. I can see why it's rated so highly, and it's a long map. I can still play it much more consistently than I can Raise This Barn Hidden, which wears my arm out very quickly. ._.
There is a considerable difference between 98.88% and 98.40% accuracy. Also, take into consideration that Je t'aime has a bigger circle:slider ratio (it's circle accuracy is about 98.5%, while the Raise This Barn play has an equivalent accuracy of about 96.8%).

As for the difficulty, I don't feel there is a very noticeable difference in difficulty between both maps (but that is subjective). I think the Raise this Barn is actually easier, since the song is easier to follow and has less awkward patterns.
TheVileOne
osu! Alumni
8,436 posts
Joined March 2010
TheVileOne
It's easier. The only reason the patterns are awkward is because of the OD which tends to generate random 100s. Actually a LOT of my top 10 is songs with paths where it is easy to 100. I will see what I get when I eventually beat my score (it's not that easy to beat my score) and see if it overtakes my Hard Rock play on another song with a lot of 100s. I still consider both of these top performances even if they aren't on my list. I just wanted sufficient reasoning why they were not on my list.

Edit: I'll just go back to playing CTB.
PinkHusky
28 posts
Joined April 2013
PinkHusky
How big of a PP boost does a FC give? Since this is like osu!tp would it be the misses that are hurting me greatly? I thought that was something peppy was trying to do away with?

On the song 1 Year 2 Months 20 Days (Mapped by Athena Tennos) - Difficulty "Neko" Using DT only I got as follows.

Score: 2,156,908 (x295) 90.96% DT
Current PP: 1808
New Score: 3,012,150 (x276) 95.74% DT
PP Change: 1809
New Score: 5,971,551 (x569) 93.99% DT
PP Change: 1830
New Score: 6,055,706 (x570) 95.31% DT
PP Change: 1835

An almost 5% accuracy increase gave me 1 PP.
A Score only increase and 2% accuracy decrease gave me 21 PP.
Then a small increase of 1.5% accuracy gave me 5 after that.

Intended? No misses the way to go?
uzzi
786 posts
Joined September 2012
uzzi

PinkHusky wrote:

How big of a PP boost does a FC give? Since this is like osu!tp would it be the misses that are hurting me greatly? I thought that was something peppy was trying to do away with?

On the song 1 Year 2 Months 20 Days (Mapped by Athena Tennos) - Difficulty "Neko" Using DT only I got as follows.

Score: 2,156,908 (x295) 90.96% DT
Current PP: 1808
New Score: 3,012,150 (x276) 95.74% DT
PP Change: 1809
New Score: 5,971,551 (x569) 93.99% DT
PP Change: 1830
New Score: 6,055,706 (x570) 95.31% DT
PP Change: 1835

An almost 5% accuracy increase gave me 1 PP.
A Score only increase and 2% accuracy decrease gave me 21 PP.
Then a small increase of 1.5% accuracy gave me 5 after that.

Intended? No misses the way to go?
I believe you'd have to be a little more specific and base it on the misses/100s/50s count as well.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

PinkHusky wrote:

How big of a PP boost does a FC give? Since this is like osu!tp would it be the misses that are hurting me greatly? I thought that was something peppy was trying to do away with?

On the song 1 Year 2 Months 20 Days (Mapped by Athena Tennos) - Difficulty "Neko" Using DT only I got as follows.

Score: 2,156,908 (x295) 90.96% DT
Current PP: 1808
New Score: 3,012,150 (x276) 95.74% DT
PP Change: 1809
New Score: 5,971,551 (x569) 93.99% DT
PP Change: 1830
New Score: 6,055,706 (x570) 95.31% DT
PP Change: 1835

An almost 5% accuracy increase gave me 1 PP.
A Score only increase and 2% accuracy decrease gave me 21 PP.
Then a small increase of 1.5% accuracy gave me 5 after that.

Intended? No misses the way to go?
Combo is very relevant for PP. You've doubled your combo!
nooblet
630 posts
Joined December 2011
nooblet
Is it a direct relation like (combo/max combo)*(Rest of PP calculation)? I have an almost-FC score that I don't think I'll ever beat in accuracy (and it's second in my top plays), so I'm not sure if it's even worth the effort, I don't wanna end up losing PP for the loss in acc + combo gain.

The score
CookChefSteak
98 posts
Joined August 2013
CookChefSteak

nooblet wrote:

Is it a direct relation like (combo/max combo)*(Rest of PP calculation)? I have an almost-FC score that I don't think I'll ever beat in accuracy (and it's second in my top plays), so I'm not sure if it's even worth the effort, I don't wanna end up losing PP for the loss in acc + combo gain.

The score
I think it depends on the length of the map and the actual possible combo. I had a DT play with 3 misses and 96% acc and when I improved to FC but ruined my acc(92%) I lost like 4 pp. It was 40 seconds on DT.
blissfulyoshi
osu! Alumni
4,755 posts
Joined July 2008
blissfulyoshi
Is it just me, or are more slider pattern oriented maps seemed to have low star ratings in comparison to more circle patten oriented maps.

For example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28425 (Black Rebel 3.43 stars) vs https://osu.ppy.sh/b/178966&m=0 (Talent Shredder 3.29 stars), but I am pretty sure most will agree that Talent Shredder is harder than Black Rebel.

Or take Skystar maps that frequently depend on you to leave sliders early to do jumps have lower star ratings than maps that depend on circle jumps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 (Maware (Skystar) 3.42 stars) and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L (Skystar) 3.38 stars ) versus Fycho's https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122233 (Univer Page 3.33 stars) or https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L 3.52 stars )

(Sorry for the limited selection of songs, mostly just using the songs I was farming recently)
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94

blissfulyoshi wrote:

Is it just me, or are more slider pattern oriented maps seemed to have low star ratings in comparison to more circle patten oriented maps.

For example:
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/28425 (Black Rebel 3.43 stars) vs https://osu.ppy.sh/b/178966&m=0 (Talent Shredder 3.29 stars), but I am pretty sure most will agree that Talent Shredder is harder than Black Rebel.

Or take Skystar maps that frequently depend on you to leave sliders early to do jumps have lower star ratings than maps that depend on circle jumps
https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122658 (Maware (Skystar) 3.42 stars) and https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L (Skystar) 3.38 stars ) versus Fycho's https://osu.ppy.sh/s/122233 (Univer Page 3.33 stars) or https://osu.ppy.sh/b/318294&m=0 (S.M.L 3.52 stars )

(Sorry for the limited selection of songs, mostly just using the songs I was farming recently)
The reason is, that the current way sliders are dealt with is very generous in terms of the slider's favor. Currently there is no measure as how hard it is to actually follow a slider. The minimum distance you have to move to complete the slider is added up to the jump to the next hitobject, but that's it atm. This "minimum distance" is required to not give fast repeatsliders, or even worse: slider-streams, ridiculous pp amounts.

I'll look into how this can be addressed without being too arbitrary.

Another reason at least for some of these maps to be underrated is, that they feature quick single passages with low spacing which gets underrated in the current algorithm. Couldn't really find a way to fix that without completely breaking spaced streams yet.
Lach
1,118 posts
Joined November 2012
Lach
Holy shit, Tom (or whoever actually did this). Thank you for the pp values for scores on profile. I just spent a few minutes getting to the bottom, and felt so nostalgic.
kozuka
8 posts
Joined June 2013
kozuka

Lach wrote:

Holy shit, Tom (or whoever actually did this). Thank you for the pp values for scores on profile. I just spent a few minutes getting to the bottom, and felt so nostalgic.
Wow yes, this is great :D
mcdoomfrag
94 posts
Joined June 2013
mcdoomfrag
Does the star difficulty in itself take into consideration the length of the song, or is it the length only taken into consideration when the PP gained ?

Example: 2 maps, exact same level of difficulty, but one is 3 minutes and the other is 6 minutes. Will they both be 3 stars, but give different amounts of PP, or will one be 3 stars and the other 3.2 stars ?
NotThat
23 posts
Joined June 2013
NotThat
Displaying PP on webpage is awesome. I am loving the direction the ranking system is headed ever since the introduction of PPv2. Well done <3

I still suggest replacing the in-game star system with the web one (which I assume matches PPv2 'level' system). I have resorted to doing it manually


It's a lot of hassle to do, the in-game collection system is quite poor (messed up when a map belongs in more than one collection, requires external tool to sort). Integrating the PPv2 star system would also allow updating the level display based on selected mods. Additionally it would help people find maps to play that match their skill level. Currently there's only 2 star difficulties: "5 stars" and "don't bother", I imagine it's the same for many people. PPv2 star system makes a lot more sense where it's an actual spectrum.

I remember when I started playing and reached the point where hard maps were too easy, but I couldn't find suitable maps as most 5 star ones were too hard. Now I can FC many 5 star maps, but I still have a hard time finding good maps to play as most 5 star maps are still either too easy or too hard.
PlasticSmoothie
242 posts
Joined March 2010
PlasticSmoothie
I believe Tom has said he's working on it.
Kasugunai
31 posts
Joined July 2012
Kasugunai
I just checked out those pp values and played a map that supposedly granted me 39 pp, the value increased to 52 yet my pp is still the same. Is this intended? If so, how does it work?
Soulg
575 posts
Joined February 2013
Soulg

Kasugunai wrote:

I just checked out those pp values and played a map that supposedly granted me 39 pp, the value increased to 52 yet my pp is still the same. Is this intended? If so, how does it work?
the pp shown on your profile is the raw pp amount, before the pp equation is applied.

also i have a suggestion; maybe show the raw pp a play is worth ingame on the score screen? to give an idea of how much the song would be worth.
Kasugunai
31 posts
Joined July 2012
Kasugunai
It's still weird that a D-rank play (around 66% acc) is worth 52 raw pp when it's not even worth 1 after the equation is applied.
Full Tablet
2,544 posts
Joined September 2011
Full Tablet

Kasugunai wrote:

It's still weird that a D-rank play (around 66% acc) is worth 52 raw pp when it's not even worth 1 after the equation is applied.
That 52 raw pp should be worth about 6pp (according to it's position on the rank list), but by making that score, any performance worth less than 52pp gives 5% less (except the scores that were worse than 39 raw pp, but those were giving practically zero anyways), so you might end up getting practically nothing.
Tom94
osu!dev
750 posts
Joined August 2012
Topic Starter
Tom94
Soon the percentage by how much a given score is weighted will be shown along with the raw pp value to avoid confusion. :)
Shimatora
30 posts
Joined January 2013
Shimatora

Soulg wrote:

also i have a suggestion; maybe show the raw pp a play is worth ingame on the score screen? to give an idea of how much the song would be worth.
I approve of this.
Fanker
28 posts
Joined April 2012
Fanker
New update, showing PP super, but can you add information about mod which played map (HR, DT, DT+HD, None...), and "new" as in the TP system. It is simply amazing :)
Soulg
575 posts
Joined February 2013
Soulg

Tom94 wrote:

Soon the percentage by how much a given score is weighted will be shown along with the raw pp value to avoid confusion. :)
Any plans to implement a raw PP values into the "Recent Plays" area of a profile? Or something equal to that?
NotThat
23 posts
Joined June 2013
NotThat

Fanker wrote:

New update, showing PP super, but can you add information about mod which played map (HR, DT, DT+HD, None...), and "new" as in the TP system. It is simply amazing :)
And Accuracy as well would be nice. When I go over my top ranks I find myself looking for low accuracy plays to improve upon.
-Chronopolis-
74 posts
Joined December 2009
-Chronopolis-
PP scores on profile are awesome.
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