DT-sama wrote:

mike6649 wrote:

I can understand the fact that pp is constantly being recalculated, but I believe 100pp disappearing every single time it does so is simply absurd.

Can someone explain what factors contribute to a decrease in pp?

Everytime you lost pp, the algorithm that calculates pp has changed. You haven't lost any pp, according to the new algorithm you just have the pp you have.

Are you an FL or HD player? Do you have any scores that excel in one category in particular (e.g., a SS in 7000 circles OD11 map for accuracy, FC a 360bpm 7000 circles stream map for speed , FC a 360bpm 7000 circles full screen squares AR11 map for aim)? If you're not, you "lost" pp because the recent adjustments were to give a fairer pp value to such plays. For more info on how exactly it happened, read the thread.

My best plays so far are mostly without mods (except for 1 which is DT), and i believe they in fact do specialise in one category (mostly aim or speed). I checked and the 'drops' in pp were on Feb 9th and March 1st respectively, yet the Feb 9th changelog didn't mention 'nerfing' anything in particular, which is even more confusing. Unless there are some changes that were not logged.

Overall, the ppv2 system is pretty good, but there are some maps which seem to be much harder than it says on the tp database, like:
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/19990 and
https://osu.ppy.sh/b/270980.
Does the ppv2 database treat these maps as about the same difficulty as the tp maps (easier than it actually is), and if so, is there a way to fix it?

Clarification:
The first one has lots of jumps, but low slider speed which makes it very hard to aim.
The second one basically spams tons of notes.

These two are both harder than they are ranked, and I think that there may be others like this.

Tom94 wrote:

JappyBabes wrote:

idk how these two made it into WWW/my best performance list but i'm pretty sure they shoudn't be there, especially to be rated as my two best.

There seems to be a bug in the difficulty calculations of those maps. I'll look into it. Suspecting it has to do with the fast repeat sliders.

The bug has been fixed. It'll propagate to your pp tomorrow.

mike6649 wrote:

My best plays so far are mostly without mods (except for 1 which is DT), and i believe they in fact do specialise in one category (mostly aim or speed). I checked and the 'drops' in pp were on Feb 9th and March 1st respectively, yet the Feb 9th changelog didn't mention 'nerfing' anything in particular, which is even more confusing. Unless there are some changes that were not logged.

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance
I am seeing things on Feb 9th there.

Feb 9, 2014
Performance: [Tom94] Increase the aim bonus of FlashLight slightly.
Performance: [Tom94] Increase pp-value of scores which excel in one category.

Can you elaborate on how this patch cause such a tremendous deduction in pp? I'm seeing what you are seeing.

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Wishy wrote:

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Both. I lost pp, therefore I lost rank. And its not just a minor drop of pp, it was up to 10% of my total pp (1100 -> 1000)

mike6649 wrote:

Wishy wrote:

Did you lose pp or you lost rank? Not the same thing.

Both. I lost pp, therefore I lost rank. And its not just a minor drop of pp, it was up to 10% of my total pp (1100 -> 1000)

I can't just make everyone's pp increase. I need to scale things down so the average of everyone stays the same. That means that you didn't profit much from the change and thus lost pp in the process of scaling everyone down. You probably have many scores which are about equal in each category and don't excel in one particular category.

Thanks for clearing that up, I was pretty pissed when I saw my pp was gone twice lol

Hi, I looked around for a little bit and I couldn't find answers.

So there is one map that while it was qualified, I played it and scored a 98% accuracy on it. And judging by the tp level on osutp (first one) it should've landed somewhere in my top scores. However, it was not calculated because it was qualified then. Now it is ranked but I did not get any points.
Do I have to beat that score for it to recalculate? I've already tried forcing a recalculation by beating other maps but to no avail.

qualified maps do give pp, if it didnt get into your top performance it means you didnt get enough pp from it.

silmarilen wrote:

qualified maps do give pp, if it didnt get into your top performance it means you didnt get enough pp from it.

That's odd, back when I scored it, I had lvl 30's in my top 10 and nothing changed. It was an FC too...

all the maps currently in your top performance are higher tp lvl than this map, if you add the relatively low acc to that it makes sense that it isnt in your top performance.

tastystew wrote:

The second song, according to osu!tp calculator, is 17 levels higher. You performed reasonably well for it, so I guess it awarded you more pp.

uh ...

91%, B, alot of misses ...

Not sure if i can consider it "reasonably well".

But aniway, thanks for all your answers .

silmarilen wrote:

all the maps currently in your top performance are higher tp lvl than this map, if you add the relatively low acc to that it makes sense that it isnt in your top performance.

Hmm, my lowest one was a lvl 43 but with 93% accuracy but, the rest are about 95-97%. Would a longer combo (1110) but the lower accuracy and 2 more tp be worth more then the shorter combo (457), 98% and two 2tp lower?

I still don't see how http://osu.ppy.sh/b/146372 is such a high level, in comparison to chipscape and dt eiji kuinbii.

And then something like dt http://osu.ppy.sh/b/295824 is much lower than midnight siege, even though it's a lot harder

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.
at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.
this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.

How about being able to prioritize certain rank on map which forces it to recalculate over your top score on it? 3 times per week/month so it's not that abuseable.

Squigly wrote:

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.

SPOILER

at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.

SPOILER

this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

Keep in mind, that scores with many misses and a low accuracy are not considered a good performance, regardless of map. You shouldn't get pp for getting a D on big black + DT + NoFail, too, as an extreme example.

The reason you are losing ranks is that other people don't just stop improving. If people surpass your pp, then they rank up and you rank down. Nothing to do with the scores you set.

Tom94 wrote:

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

What is the standard Map diff for about 10k-12k Plays ? Maps like TJ.Hangneil - Kamui [SHD]?

Bcs I try to find hard maps to improve ... what is better to learn high AR Maps or to learn low AR high BPM Maps like DJPop Maps

Ultrayano wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

What is the standard Map diff for 12k Plays ? Maps like TJ.Hangneil - Kamui [SHD]?

Why would it depend on the amount of plays? It doesn't. It depends on how much pp you already have, or more precisely, on how good your best scores already are. If you have tons of crazy scores like thelewa for example, then you would get pretty much nothing from a Kamui FC. If you only have mediocre Insane scores, then a Kamui FC would give you a lot.

Tom94 wrote:

Why would it depend on the amount of plays? It doesn't. It depends on how much pp you already have, or more precisely, on how good your best scores already are. If you have tons of crazy scores like thelewa for example, then you would get pretty much nothing from a Kamui FC. If you only have mediocre Insane scores, then a Kamui FC would give you a lot.

Oh okay now I understand the system.. I thought it depend on how much Plays you have bcs of more Plays = more Practice for normally

my pp got deducted by 13 after i got 99.25% on a hard map with no mod. whats happening ;_;

i've got top 45 then my rank decreased by 700..
seems really confused with new ranking system.. ._.

Tom94 wrote:

Squigly wrote:

These are a few things that have bothered me too the point where i really want to make a post about it....mainly complaining about it, so i can atleast get some sense out of it. I dont really want to be told why this happens for i know how the system is working right now i want to know why it is the way it is for this is clearly flawed.

This is just today, but it happens on a regular basis, i played this beatmap for example, got a decent combo stacked up and a decent score yet i had 87% accuracy, and the accuracy is basically what caused me to lose ranks after playing this. Considering my rank of 15k and the fact i did that well on it, i was very unhappy with being rewarded by losing ranks.

SPOILER

at this point im tired, so i decided to 3 mod a normal beatmap, why not right? Apparently thats a bad idea too, for getting a rank of 282 of 6900 must be bad, i lost even more ranks than for the previous one.

SPOILER

this keeps happening to me, and has been happening to me for weeks and weeks and i kept telling myself that this would be fixed but apparently not for i keep gaining and losing my ranks for no reason at all. IM half scared to post this because its mostly complaining but im too unhappy with all of these that i just need to.

You're not gaining any pp, because appearently you already have many, many plays of that kind of level. Try to get better scores on harder maps if you want to further increase your pp.

Keep in mind, that scores with many misses and a low accuracy are not considered a good performance, regardless of map. You shouldn't get pp for getting a D on big black + DT + NoFail, too, as an extreme example.

The reason you are losing ranks is that other people don't just stop improving. If people surpass your pp, then they rank up and you rank down. Nothing to do with the scores you set.

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

NixXSkate wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?pn=Winshley&bn=paraparamax

That map requires almost no aim at all, and it is pretty slow.

As for the accuracy. OD5 is relatively low.
According to the "expected unstable rate" formula:
SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing a 2-minute Insane OD7 with 435 circles (considering you can retry paraparaMAX 2 times per hour of playing without breaks, and you can retry the Insane map 30 times).
Or SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing an Insane OD7 with 105 circles (assuming each map was played only once and there weren't "lucky" plays).

wailord2700 wrote:

my pp got deducted by 13 after i got 99.25% on a hard map with no mod. whats happening ;_;

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

It doesn't matter how many maps you are playing if you don't play on par to your best scores. The system is supposed to rate how good you are performing, not how much you are performing. There is only a limited amount of pp you can gain by playing maps of the same level.

Considering the rank on a beatmap doesn't work for one simple reason: There are maps which have been played more than 1000 times as often as others, so simply taking the map rank into account doesn't work. "Consider map rank relative to total plays on the map then!", you might say, but that also doesn't work, because the better players tend to only play the harder maps, so the competition on easier maps is far more forgiving than on the harder maps.

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

I'd share my personal experience since you seem troubled and we happen to have almost the same rank at least back then. Now I'm rank 9950+

FROM A RANK 15K PERSPECTIVE

so you're rank 15k (181Xpp).... almost perfectly the same rank I had 2 months (not sure) ago starting from the drastic change in pp (some time after the ppv2 testing). I tested a little on maps by getting SS on a hard and my pp didn't budge an inch. When I put an HD mod and got an SSH, it budged for like... 4 pp or something and it even got inside top 500 but at least there's improvement. Trimodding XH Normal maps even on top 50 doesn't give anything

Observation: Don't bother going no mod on Hard mode beatmaps
Don't bother playing Normal mode maps (unless you want to get a #1, if you can)

And when I DT a hard, SS it and got it even outside the top 500 range, you'd get 15 pp at the very least but I didn't chose this route. Instead, I went straight to FC'ing insanes/lunatics with a low acc HRHD on top 50 like this one http://osu.ppy.sh/b/173567?m=0 or a 99.50+ HD on players in the top 40-50 like this one http://osu.ppy.sh/b/263270?m=0. I made a mental note that these kinds of maps gives a lot of pp when 99%'d AND as long as it got inside 1000 (of course this should be obvious already, it's an "insane" map with a high number of combo so it'd give a bunch of pp for a low rank)

Observation: Certain insane maps with top 50s having a low acc HRHD (97% above) and FC'ing them nets you good amounts of pp
Certain insane maps with top 50s having high acc HD (99% above) and FC'ing them nets you even better amounts of pp

MOST IMPORTANT NOTE: get your rank inside 1000 as often as possible

And also, tryharding maps like Fear and Loathing..., Wahrheit, Goreshit ,"most" marathon maps or other very hard maps would rarely give you a "good amount" of pp if you can't FC them or at least get a decent combo. Maybe you'd get like 2-10pp but that's it.

I gained 300+ pp since the start of using my methods and I'm still slacking

Tom94 wrote:

wailord2700 wrote:

my pp got deducted by 13 after i got 99.25% on a hard map with no mod. whats happening ;_;

https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance

Squigly wrote:

i understand people dont stop improving, i was playing maps all day, i thought this was going to boost be significantly, like i stated before, i do better than people under 10k, explain it to me please. i lose ranks for doing good and gain ranks for doing bad. And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

It doesn't matter how many maps you are playing if you don't play on par to your best scores. The system is supposed to rate how good you are performing, not how much you are performing. There is only a limited amount of pp you can gain by playing maps of the same level.

Considering the rank on a beatmap doesn't work for one simple reason: There are maps which have been played more than 1000 times as often as others, so simply taking the map rank into account doesn't work. "Consider map rank relative to total plays on the map then!", you might say, but that also doesn't work, because the better players tend to only play the harder maps, so the competition on easier maps is far more forgiving than on the harder maps.

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps. But if it truly isnt going to9 affect your decisions with where to take this then i guess ill simply just stop.

So I just lost 12pp after playing a map I had only played once before (about 3 minutes prior to that to be exact). I improved both my accuracy (and had fewer misses) and my combo. Also I didn't get any pp for my previous performance.
It's not a hard map at all and it was just to get warmed up really so I'm kind of confused as to what happened, I didn't expect it to influence my pp at all.

http://puu.sh/7iTA7.png

It doesn't bother me too much because pp isn't exactly important around my level but I thought I'd let you know since afaik PPv2 doesn't punish you for bad performances except when you overwrite an old score with worse accuracy etc.

If it was just due to another pp recalculation, please point me to the appropriate changelog entry.


Edit: Also, you did a great job on the new system overall, I haven't encountered any problems before this and I think it portrays my performance a lot better than PPv1 did, though I still feel like osu! thinks of me as a better player than I actually am.

Yasaburo wrote:

So I just lost 12pp after playing a map I had only played once before (about 3 minutes prior to that to be exact). I improved both my accuracy (and had fewer misses) and my combo. Also I didn't get any pp for my previous performance.
It's not a hard map at all and it was just to get warmed up really so I'm kind of confused as to what happened, I didn't expect it to influence my pp at all.

http://puu.sh/7iTA7.png

It doesn't bother me too much because pp isn't exactly important around my level but I thought I'd let you know since afaik PPv2 doesn't punish you for bad performances except when you overwrite an old score with worse accuracy etc.

If it was just due to another pp recalculation, please point me to the appropriate changelog entry.


Edit: Also, you did a great job on the new system overall, I haven't encountered any problems before this and I think it portrays my performance a lot better than PPv1 did, though I still feel like osu! thinks of me as a better player than I actually am.

Just happened to me as well; strange.
PP dropped by ±18 after doing this. If anything, shouldn't it increase instead of decreasing?
PP recalculation?

——

Ah, performance update. Perhaps some recalculation was done.
https://osu.ppy.sh/p/changelog?category=performance

Squigly wrote:

And one thing, personally i believe that making it so rank on a beatmap doesnt matter is probably the dumbest thing ive ever heard.

Sorry, but that was the last system where farmers could prevail and FL was supreme.

Squigly wrote:

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps

Tom already discussed this on a previous post:

Accuracy is indeed heavily weighted but it does not determine everything. It is mainly a tie breaker like it should be.

Novixion wrote:

Accuracy is indeed heavily weighted but it does not determine everything. It is mainly a tie breaker like it should be.

I once did 98%, gained a couple of pp, great.
Then I replayed it with Hidden mod, 96% accuracy, but score is higher than the previous one, lost around half of it.
I am not quite satisfied with this... but it can't be helped I think; only the highest score is stored and used as the pp calculation.

s4nji wrote:

Novixion wrote:

Accuracy is indeed heavily weighted but it does not determine everything. It is mainly a tie breaker like it should be.

I once did 98%, gained a couple of pp, great.
Then I replayed it with Hidden mod, 96% accuracy, but score is higher than the previous one, lost around half of it.
I am... not quite satisfied with this?

The amount of points gained is exponential from 96->97->98->99->100. So if you lose accuracy, you lose points, usually.

s4nji wrote:

I once did 98%, gained a couple of pp, great.
Then I replayed it with Hidden mod, 96% accuracy, but score is higher than the previous one, lost around half of it.
I am not quite satisfied with this... but it can't be helped I think; only the highest score is stored and used as the pp calculation.

The thing is, when you get like 99.9% on a ~1000 objects map, that's like 1x100, right?
Now if you get 99.8%, that doesn't seem like a big difference, but it's 2x100, which is twice more 100s
99.7% would be 3x100, which is 3 times as more 100s, etc etc

And HD does nothing to compensate this, as accuracy isn't any harder with this mod, so the small aim bonus you'd get with it is outbalanced by the heavy loss of accuracy

Squigly wrote:

ive been playing and beating the harder maps in the game, people of my rank cant do it and people who are much higher than me cant do it either, just awake is not an easy beatmap to play at all to get a B on it isnt even that bad, im certainly no pro player but losing ranks from this? seriously? there are definitly balancing issues if that isnt considered a hard map. This is all i want to point out, i know like no one who has beaten dance with a number at my rank, regardless of my accuracy on it (which was awful) i didnt gain a single thing from it. Its not an easy accomplishment, especially fro someone of my rank.

After reading other posts i want to point out that i dont want to know how this works, i know how the system works, im trying to point out how much of a flaw this is that accuracy is so heavily weighted that i can lose ranks from doing well on beatmaps. But if it truly isnt going to9 affect your decisions with where to take this then i guess ill simply just stop.

You can't lose pp from getting new scores as long as you don't beat an old score with worse accuracy / miss count or a recalculation is happening, period.
The ranks you are losing do not come from making a new score, but from other people surpassing your rank. Your rank is merely not updated all the time, but only periodically and when you make a score.

Let me repeat once again, the system rates the quality of your performance. It is not intended to give a lot of points to plays on hard maps which you can barely pass. Imagine playing the piano. You don't perform in a concert with a damn hard piece, that you can barely play with quite a lot of mistakes.

And yeah, the difficulty judgement is not perfect, so you might find a few maps not getting rated 100% perfectly. Many of val's low-spacing high BPM maps like "with a dance number" or "scarlet rose" are underrated. :/

Full Tablet wrote:

NixXSkate wrote:

http://osutp.net/scores?pn=Winshley&bn=paraparamax

That map requires almost no aim at all, and it is pretty slow.

As for the accuracy. OD5 is relatively low.
According to the "expected unstable rate" formula:
SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing a 2-minute Insane OD7 with 435 circles (considering you can retry paraparaMAX 2 times per hour of playing without breaks, and you can retry the Insane map 30 times).
Or SSing paraparaMAX is comparable to SSing an Insane OD7 with 105 circles (assuming each map was played only once and there weren't "lucky" plays).

No it doesn't compare, stop smoking. SSing an Insane OD7 that's only 2 minutes sightread is absolutely totally incomparable unless your patience is absolutely unlimited then MAYBE. Actually no it definitely doesn't still.
Also do you seriously think an SS on an old 30 minute map should be only 26 acc tp? Only 2 people could SS it despite its popularity for a reason. Also the AR is the same as the OD. Might not mean shit in tp, but it certainly doesn't help.

After 50 pages people still haven't been able to understand:

1- You can't lose pp. If you happen to lose pp it's because there is some update going on or you beat one of your scores with another one that's worth less pp than your old one (dunno if this has been fixed yet, make ranks based on pp earned pls like osu!tp, ranked score is crap).

2- Rank does not mean pp, it's not the same to lose some ranks that to lose pp.

3- A map is not hard because you think it's hard, most osu! players can't even clear hard maps, like it or not the system needs to set up a standard, even if that means to hurt you because it constantly reminds you that you suck. If you are good you should be able, if interested, to climb through the ranks.

Just be patient, don't try to rush things, focus on getting better, that's the best way to get to a higher position, unless you are willing to really try hard.

4- You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.

Wishy wrote:

You don't need to know how the system works to get better ranks, you need to play better, no way around it.

Totally agree

NixXSkate wrote:

Only 2 people could SS it despite its popularity for a reason.

Unfortunately, a very large part of that reason is the ridiculously awful timing of the map, which pp doesn't and shouldn't account for.

I'm not saying Winshley's play wasn't more impressive than its tp value indicates - the difficulties involved just aren't something pp measures.