Tom94 wrote:

CookChefSteak wrote:

But since every player's current pp is stored as an integer on the server, why is it not possible or plausible to store newly calculated pp as a temporary variable before calling on the server's pp-update method, and compare it with the stored[old] pp value? It looks like a simple if statement in my head. It just seems like something like that should be very possible in a well-modulated algorithm. I'll say it again though, I don't know how you programmed it so it might not be that simple. Maybe if you could shed some light on the technical aspects of the algorithm I'll understand better.

That works only for the first new score coming in. Imagine a new (higher) pp value gets chosen and updated while the score which caused the pp increase doesn't get saved, since there is a higher score lying around already.
Now the same scenario happens again: The newly calculated pp value only features the one new score + all old ones in the database. The score used previously to increase the pp is completely lost!

Also, just to clarify: pp is a floating point number. Even if the number you see doesn't change with a score you get, you still might have gotten a fraction of a pp.

Correct, the old score is lost, but the old PP value(the raw floating point number) doesn't have to be. If it's stored temporarily as just a number, you could regularly calculate a player's pp after he sets a highscore then compare it to that temporarily stored raw value. That is, store it before you update a player's pp, compare it, update with the appropriate value, and delete the temporary memory segment. There is no need to recalculate the old pp value again using 2 highscores per map as you said. It's a really quick and simple algorithm, and I honestly do not see the problem in implementing that. You must know something regarding the algorithm that I don't if you're still not convinced.


anyways an example:
1. a highscore is achieved
2. current player pp is 2280
3. 2280 stored as float = current_pp
3. pp method runs with the highscore as an argument
4. algorithm yields 2270 as the appropriate pp considering the new score(float newpp = ppcalculate(args);)
5. newpp > current_pp ? server.query(newpp) : server.query(current_pp);

that's it...

CookChefSteak wrote:

Correct, the old score is lost, but the old PP value(the raw floating point number) doesn't have to be. If it's stored temporarily as just a number, you could regularly calculate a player's pp after he sets a highscore then compare it to that temporarily stored raw value. That is, store it before you update a player's pp, compare it, update with the appropriate value, and delete the temporary memory segment. There is no need to recalculate the old pp value again using 2 highscores per map as you said. It's a really quick and simple algorithm, and I honestly do not see the problem in implementing that. You must know something regarding the algorithm that I don't if you're still not convinced.

anyways an example:
1. a highscore is achieved
2. current player pp is 2280
3. 2280 stored as float = current_pp
3. pp method runs with the highscore as an argument
4. algorithm yields 2270 as the appropriate pp considering the new score(float newpp = ppcalculate(args);)
5. newpp > current_pp ? server.query(newpp) : server.query(current_pp);

that's it...

You're wrong, this doesn't work. The old floating point value that's still lying around is useless for computing what pp the user would have with the new score. The previously discarded score would be necessary for that computation.

I wrote you a PM in case you want to know why and/or want to continue the discussion - it doesn't fit in this thread.

Tom, sorry if this has been asked before:

Any thoughts about replacing the whole score based ranking system with pp?

I mean, right now you can beat "your best pp score" with a "worse pp score". It would also be a nice addition since they original % bonus each mod gives has always been broken, we could get to see some nice rankings like we can see on osu!tp. I mean there are several maps where some epics DTs are buried under random HR HDs lol, you know what to mean. Same thing with HRs being buried under HDs. Having the alternative to order top scores by pp gained instead of score would be really nice, also it would kind of resolve the "you can lose pp by beating your own score" thing.

can we have separate pp (aim, speed, accuracy) shown on our profile page?

I think the tp rating system is better than the pp one since it's easy to farm pp on maps that aren't at the limits of your skill. In tp, you can have top 10 scores that don't give you any tp since they aren't challenging your individual attributes at all but may grant you a lot of pp just because the play averages out harder.

I agree that seperate scores for our ability
I.e speed accuracy aim
Should be implemented,
However if tom hasn't got the time it's not likely to happen.

Why did remote control hdhr give me 0 pp but is really high on my best performances ?

Well, tp might not be the same as pp, but muh FL ;;

http://osutp.net/scores?bid=27204
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=76663
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=52781
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=37249
(^Yeah my accuracy might not be the coolest ever, but still, I'd imagine some of the jumps in those maps should be hard enough.)
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=121000 (99.67 FLDT is not enough to beat a HDDT SS)
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=64468 (Same as above, a HDHR SS is better than a HDHRFL 99.55% run.)

Also, just a map in my top performance:
http://osutp.net/scores?bid=49067 , which seems to give a bunch of accuracy, and I guess it might be because of the amount of circles vs amount of sliders and AR. But because the map has a very steady and constant 1/2 rhythm, getting high accuracy on it isn't really that hard.

A bit late but...

[ Zetka ] wrote:

Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/

In most cases, when you barely pass a map you aren't really demonstrating that you can play it competently. What you're typically showing is that you're able to bullshit your way through it. Here's an example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34544

Passing that map isn't too tough because the HP Drain's at 5 and the notes are fairly close together most of the time since I designed the map to be a Hard (in hindsight i should've just made it an Insane but w/e). Because of this you can just mash your way through the 1/4 sections and nail the rest and be fine. However, SSing it isn't easy for most people because of said 1/4 sections.

Someone who mashes shouldn't really be getting pp, but that SS should still have PP potential (for low ranked players, at least). This goes for quite a lot of maps. The easiest way to do this is to not give out pp to low accuracy unless the map warrants it and that's more or less how it's done.

EDIT: It's also possible that it's only you who finds that map really hard. People are different so this happens at times.

-Soba- wrote:

Why did remote control hdhr give me 0 pp but is really high on my best performances ?

usually when a score gives you nothing when it should you just have to set a new best score on any map for it to update.

People said that Scarlet Rose was the hardest map in existence (according to forums)
Why is it ranked so low in tp?
Is this map underrated?
Adult's toy is also seriously underrated. You can ask almost everyone and find that the consider Adult's Toy harder than say, some random high tp diff such as recommended spell (Spell)
I suggest maybe high bpm songs should rated higher.

I just dont get it. Always the same..

I play song 1st time, i failed 2-3 times, im.. lets say #2000 (B)
And my ranking increased for 50

I play song 2nd time on FC, im lets say #700 (C)
And my ranking DECREASED for 20..

Why does that happened ?

asior wrote:

I just dont get it. Always the same..

I play song 1st time, i failed 2-3 times, im.. lets say #2000 (B)
And my ranking increased for 50

I play song 2nd time on FC, im lets say #700 (C)
And my ranking DECREASED for 20..

Why does that happened ?

Did your pp go down? Or just your rank while pp stayed the same?

scottyyy wrote:

asior wrote:

I just dont get it. Always the same..

I play song 1st time, i failed 2-3 times, im.. lets say #2000 (B)
And my ranking increased for 50

I play song 2nd time on FC, im lets say #700 (C)
And my ranking DECREASED for 20..

Why does that happened ?

Did your pp go down? Or just your rank while pp stayed the same?

So pp can go down ? If yes; when ?

I'm not 100% sure but I think your pp can go down if the system replaces one your scores with one that it believes is worse on the same map difficulty. In your case it might have since the system probably thought the B score was better than the C FC, but because the C FC gave higher score the system has to use that one. And because it was a worse score according to the system, it gave you less pp.

Source: p/2830181

The solution would be to just FC it again with better accuracy.

Keep in mind your actual rank is always getting worse unless you gain pp constantly as people overtake you.

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

asior wrote:

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

It's a limitation of the current system but it's not bad really. The system is still rewarding better scores over worse ones. Just because you value crappy acc FC over good acc non-FC doesn't mean the system is wrong. :p

If you're capable of FCing a song, surely doing it again with better accuracy isn't a problem. Isn't that like, the entire point of this game? Improving and getting better scores?

dennischan wrote:

People said that Scarlet Rose was the hardest map in existence (according to forums)
Why is it ranked so low in tp?
Is this map underrated?
Adult's toy is also seriously underrated. You can ask almost everyone and find that the consider Adult's Toy harder than say, some random high tp diff such as recommended spell (Spell)
I suggest maybe high bpm songs should rated higher.

Can't tell if serious on the first part, but the reason why maps like Scarlet Rose and Adult's Toy are weighted so low is because the ranking system cannot value patterns as of right now. Tom said that he would try to implement it later if he can.

I really like how the system is right now, and I can't wait until patterns get weighted more. I really feel rewarded for being fcing a hard song. Very good job.

asior wrote:

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

The easy map won't give you anything because it's... easy? pp is completely based on map difficulty.

asior wrote:

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

Go try it.

"Wow, I just wasted my time" in 3... 2...

Tom94 wrote:

asior wrote:

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

The easy map won't give you anything because it's... easy? pp is completely based on map difficulty.

Ekaru wrote:

asior wrote:

Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...

Go try it.

"Wow, I just wasted my time" in 3... 2...

I mean mod, not map type.

dennischan wrote:

People said that Scarlet Rose was the hardest map in existence (according to forums)
Why is it ranked so low in tp?
Is this map underrated?
Adult's toy is also seriously underrated. You can ask almost everyone and find that the consider Adult's Toy harder than say, some random high tp diff such as recommended spell (Spell)
I suggest maybe high bpm songs should rated higher.

the scarlet rose being the hardest map is a joke on the forums lol, it's not really that hard (only hard to fc, not to get high acc)

asior wrote:

I mean mod, not map type.

That mod makes most Insanes a lot harder to FC while killing your score modifier. >_>

asior wrote:

I mean mod, not map type.

EZ mod gives you huge circles, which makes aim trivial and lowers the score you get from aim. It halves the OD, which makes accuracy trivial and lowers the score you get from accuracy. If you have a short stream, the lower OD will significantly reduce the speed required and lower the score you get from speed.

You'll get a small bonus for the low AR, but overall, EZ mod counts for very little, even with a FC.

If reading difficulty is ever implemented, EZ mod might be worth playing for points on some maps.

Honestly i like the new system. In the past i could only get pp for doing new song, now i can play any map. Also its made me want to improve old scores. Although some songs do give out more pp even though they are not that hard.

I found a mistake in the calculations in osutp and I'm wondering if it's the same for the current pp system. When adding the Half Time mod the speed gets multiplied by 0.75, so AR and OD times need to be multiplied by 4/3. The beatmap difficulty on osutp shows different values, though. E.g. ar10 with Half Time becomes ar8.5 instead of ar9 (for correct values check GhostFrog's post in p/2858736). Same issue with OD. I don't know if even the aim and speed values are affected by this, but it might be a good idea to check it out.

Ziggo wrote:

I found a mistake in the calculations in osutp and I'm wondering if it's the same for the current pp system. When adding the Half Time mod the speed gets multiplied by 0.75, so AR and OD times need to be multiplied by 4/3. The beatmap difficulty on osutp shows different values, though. E.g. ar10 with Half Time becomes ar8.5 instead of ar9 (for correct values check GhostFrog's post in https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2858736). Same issue with OD. I don't know if even the aim and speed values are affected by this, but it might be a good idea to check it out.

Thanks for pointing that out. I'm pretty damn sure, that I already fixed this at some point - the website even shows the correct multiplier on the info page. Well, gotta fix it again.
EDIT: Done.

That mistake is my fault, sorry ._. Tear already pointed it out for me and I forgot to update the table on the wiki and eventually the wrong HT multipliers got passed on to other things... gotta remember to do it aaaa

wait what i just gained 190pp what happened

what does the recent change to pp actually mean?
" Performance: [Tom94] Increase pp-value of scores which excel in one category."

tastystew wrote:

wait what i just gained 190pp what happened

what does the recent change to pp actually mean?
" Performance: [Tom94] Increase pp-value of scores which excel in one category."

It means if the song is difficult to aim or accuracy or requires a great deal of speed but not difficult in the other categories, then it'll give more pp.

Just a few quick Yes/No questions (I didn't read the whole thread, so they may have been answered already)

1. Do you gain a different amount of PP depending on where you hit your 100s/50s (i.e. near the end/beginning)?

1.a. If yes, is it simply based on the combo count, or is it something else?

1.b. If no, are you still rewarded by highly weighted maps even if you perform poorly on the actual "highly weighted part", but play perfectly for the easier sections?

2. Does a sliderbreak count as a miss? (i.e. would a 99% S with a sliderbreak be worth significantly more than a 99% A with a miss?)

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?

4. On the osu!tp info page it mentioned that the speed value is affected by map length. Does this mean (in general) longer maps such as marathons will reward more PP than a shorter map?

Suggestions:

1. Could readability also count towards map difficulty? Maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7671 are known to be hard for being incredibly confusing (although I suppose people can just memorize everything, so the added value should be somewhere between hidden and flashlight).

2. Although the vast majority would agree that a map with a higher AR is much harder and hence HR should be rewarded as such (also due to the increased values in OD, CS and Drain), most people I have spoken to would also agree that an AR lower than the recommended map AR is also much harder. Hence the order of difficulty would somewhere be along the lines of HR >>> EZ > No Mod.
My suggestion would be to keep the PP reduction for the lowered OD and Drain, but re-evaluate how AR and CS contribute to map difficulty.

3. Another suggestion is to make sliders contribute to accuracy to... some extent. Although I agree it's a free 300 most of the time, getting a 300 should still reward something, and not getting a 300 should give some form of penalty. This map (http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66941) probably isn't the best example, but as of now the PP rewarded for HDDTHR is worth less than a No Mod SS on most 4~5 star maps.

4. One more suggestion is (if possible) to calculate the PP gained from a map based on the score which gives the most PP, and not simply the highest score. For most maps, a No Mod SS is worth significantly more PP than a 97% HD score, despite the latter having a higher score. In such cases, the No Mod SS should be considered as the player's "best play" rather than the HD score (only in terms of PP calculation). A score should only be overwritten if the new score rewards more PP.

Thanks for reading!

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

Just a few quick Yes/No questions (I didn't read the whole thread, so they may have been answered already)

1. Do you gain a different amount of PP depending on where you hit your 100s/50s (i.e. near the end/beginning)?

No

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

1.b. If no, are you still rewarded by highly weighted maps even if you perform poorly on the actual "highly weighted part", but play perfectly for the easier sections?

Sadly no. In the case that per-HitObject data is available this will change, but it's currently not possible.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

2. Does a sliderbreak count as a miss? (i.e. would a 99% S with a sliderbreak be worth significantly more than a 99% A with a miss?)

It doesn't count as a miss, but as a 100. However it indirectly reduces your gained pp by breaking your combo.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?

Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

4. On the osu!tp info page it mentioned that the speed value is affected by map length. Does this mean (in general) longer maps such as marathons will reward more PP than a shorter map?

If they have the same difficulty, then yes.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

Suggestions:

1. Could readability also count towards map difficulty? Maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7671 are known to be hard for being incredibly confusing (although I suppose people can just memorize everything, so the added value should be somewhere between hidden and flashlight).

It's planned, but for now all the "readability" that pp considers is ApproachRate.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

2. Although the vast majority would agree that a map with a higher AR is much harder and hence HR should be rewarded as such (also due to the increased values in OD, CS and Drain), most people I have spoken to would also agree that an AR lower than the recommended map AR is also much harder. Hence the order of difficulty would somewhere be along the lines of HR >>> EZ > No Mod.
My suggestion would be to keep the PP reduction for the lowered OD and Drain, but re-evaluate how AR and CS contribute to map difficulty.

AR below 8 and above 10 already give bonuses. The bonus below 8 is further amplified by Hidden.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

3. Another suggestion is to make sliders contribute to accuracy to... some extent. Although I agree it's a free 300 most of the time, getting a 300 should still reward something, and not getting a 300 should give some form of penalty. This map (http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66941) probably isn't the best example, but as of now the PP rewarded for HDDTHR is worth less than a No Mod SS on most 4~5 star maps.

Not getting a 300 on a slider is heavily penalized by the way sliders are "excluded" when speaking about accuracy. You're right, that it would make sense to give them some small value still, I'll think about how to properly add that into the equation.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

4. One more suggestion is (if possible) to calculate the PP gained from a map based on the score which gives the most PP, and not simply the highest score. For most maps, a No Mod SS is worth significantly more PP than a 97% HD score, despite the latter having a higher score. In such cases, the No Mod SS should be considered as the player's "best play" rather than the HD score (only in terms of PP calculation). A score should only be overwritten if the new score rewards more PP.

Currently this is not possible due to technical limitations, but who knows what the future brings... I personally would love to see this.

-ArmoredTitan- wrote:

Thanks for reading!

You're welcome!

Some additional info for everyone. The pp formula has been slightly changed and your pp and rank will be fluctuating a bit in the next ~48 hours. Please be patient until the re-calculation is done and be easy on me with your complaints.

I'm going to wait till that disgusting B rank in my top ranks will disappear.

Tom94 wrote:

Some additional info for everyone. The pp formula has been slightly changed and your pp and rank will be fluctuating a bit in the next ~48 hours. Please be patient until the re-calculation is done and be easy on me with your complaints.

Suddenly we see the Tom94 in top50 ranks.

@Tom94 Just thought I'd link back to my post since you might've missed it or something (orsuperignoremakingmesad.) Since you've changed the algorithm though, maybe stuff have changed already.
p/2854921

Ohh, interesting.

I'm really interested to see the algorithm since I've been moved down ranks (even though im a DT player) and other DT players have gone up in ranks xD so confused!
EDIT: Nevermind, It updated and I went up ranks
no confuserino

Plaatinum wrote:

Tom94 wrote:

Some additional info for everyone. The pp formula has been slightly changed and your pp and rank will be fluctuating a bit in the next ~48 hours. Please be patient until the re-calculation is done and be easy on me with your complaints.

Suddenly we see the Tom94 in top50 ranks.

I'll drop out again, when everyone has been updated, don't worry. Somehow I knew someone would end up pointing stuff like that out... <-<

CXu wrote:

@Tom94 Just thought I'd link back to my post since you might've missed it or something (orsuperignoremakingmesad.) Since you've changed the algorithm though, maybe stuff have changed already.
p/2854921

FL has been buffed... will see if it is enough.