I want to ask that why I played a hard level map
with HD,HR, full combo
but no pp is added?
I played the map 32mins ago
with HD,HR, full combo
but no pp is added?
I played the map 32mins ago
this is the mapSaberBB wrote:
I want to ask that why I played a hard level map
with HD,HR, full combo
but no pp is added?
I played the map 32mins ago
OK....Tom94 wrote:
If you don't get pp then the system doesn't consider your score good enough. You can also get less than 1pp and not directly see it because of rounding. I won't be answering any "Why didn't get pp for X?" questions anymore for now.
Tom94 wrote:
1. Of course. This is not exactly how the algorithm works but should yield a sufficient approximation. That being said, correctly judging X is the problem here.CookChefSteak wrote:
1. If a certain map requires X amount of skills to get a decent score at and that X correlates to a certain pp range, then should pp gain not be expected when you are below that pp range and acquire such a score?
2. As far as I've noticed, accuracy is weighed too heavily on any map below 1.5 minutes(or >1 minute with DT). Try looking at maps like Eggman's Theme on DT. I lost around 6 pp(out of overall 8) because I improved a score but had 2% less. Note the score I improved had 3-4 mistakes and the improvement was an FC, so it really makes no sense to me. That map shouldn't give that much pp anyways imho, it's too easy to fc on DT.
3. Wouldn't checking whether or not the newly calculated pp would be less or more than the old one be enough? I mean, the servers already store everybody's pp so you have all the data you need available for comparison. But then again, I don't know how the scoring system is programmed so I don't want to assume things.
2. "2%" accuracy is usually a huge margin. Most people see "accuracy goes from 0% to 100%, therefore 2% is not a big difference" which is a completely wrong assumption. First of all, it greatly depends on where you've been previously. 96% and 98% are a 2% difference, but you have twice as many 100s in a 96% score than in a 98% score. That's a 100% relative difference! In your case you went down from around 95% to 92%. While not doubling your 100 count it still increased by a lot. Judging by how short the map is, you shouldn't expect to get too much of a bump for full-comboing it. Imho the decrease of pp is justified on that map.
3. No. The system needs to sort all your current scores to determine your user-pp, so it needs to be able to access your highest pp on a per-map basis for what you suggest to work. That'd force us to store 2 high-scores per map per player. Another problem is, that the pp algorithm will be tweaked frequently, so plays that previously were not deemed good enough and discarded might end up deserving the top spot in the future.
That works only for the first new score coming in. Imagine a new (higher) pp value gets chosen and updated while the score which caused the pp increase doesn't get saved, since there is a higher score lying around already.CookChefSteak wrote:
But since every player's current pp is stored as an integer on the server, why is it not possible or plausible to store newly calculated pp as a temporary variable before calling on the server's pp-update method, and compare it with the stored[old] pp value? It looks like a simple if statement in my head. It just seems like something like that should be very possible in a well-modulated algorithm. I'll say it again though, I don't know how you programmed it so it might not be that simple. Maybe if you could shed some light on the technical aspects of the algorithm I'll understand better.
Correct, the old score is lost, but the old PP value(the raw floating point number) doesn't have to be. If it's stored temporarily as just a number, you could regularly calculate a player's pp after he sets a highscore then compare it to that temporarily stored raw value. That is, store it before you update a player's pp, compare it, update with the appropriate value, and delete the temporary memory segment. There is no need to recalculate the old pp value again using 2 highscores per map as you said. It's a really quick and simple algorithm, and I honestly do not see the problem in implementing that. You must know something regarding the algorithm that I don't if you're still not convinced.Tom94 wrote:
That works only for the first new score coming in. Imagine a new (higher) pp value gets chosen and updated while the score which caused the pp increase doesn't get saved, since there is a higher score lying around already.CookChefSteak wrote:
But since every player's current pp is stored as an integer on the server, why is it not possible or plausible to store newly calculated pp as a temporary variable before calling on the server's pp-update method, and compare it with the stored[old] pp value? It looks like a simple if statement in my head. It just seems like something like that should be very possible in a well-modulated algorithm. I'll say it again though, I don't know how you programmed it so it might not be that simple. Maybe if you could shed some light on the technical aspects of the algorithm I'll understand better.
Now the same scenario happens again: The newly calculated pp value only features the one new score + all old ones in the database. The score used previously to increase the pp is completely lost!
Also, just to clarify: pp is a floating point number. Even if the number you see doesn't change with a score you get, you still might have gotten a fraction of a pp.
You're wrong, this doesn't work. The old floating point value that's still lying around is useless for computing what pp the user would have with the new score. The previously discarded score would be necessary for that computation.CookChefSteak wrote:
Correct, the old score is lost, but the old PP value(the raw floating point number) doesn't have to be. If it's stored temporarily as just a number, you could regularly calculate a player's pp after he sets a highscore then compare it to that temporarily stored raw value. That is, store it before you update a player's pp, compare it, update with the appropriate value, and delete the temporary memory segment. There is no need to recalculate the old pp value again using 2 highscores per map as you said. It's a really quick and simple algorithm, and I honestly do not see the problem in implementing that. You must know something regarding the algorithm that I don't if you're still not convinced.
anyways an example:
1. a highscore is achieved
2. current player pp is 2280
3. 2280 stored as float = current_pp
3. pp method runs with the highscore as an argument
4. algorithm yields 2270 as the appropriate pp considering the new score(float newpp = ppcalculate(args);)
5. newpp > current_pp ? server.query(newpp) : server.query(current_pp);
that's it...
In most cases, when you barely pass a map you aren't really demonstrating that you can play it competently. What you're typically showing is that you're able to bullshit your way through it. Here's an example: http://osu.ppy.sh/s/34544[ Zetka ] wrote:
Kind of enjoying a nice consistent rise in ranks but what I'm not so sure about is how I can spend ages working on a really hard beatmap and when I finally complete it it doesn't count anything towards my pp at all. But if I go and find the easiest beatmap I have, wack on a few mods and get a good score really easily, that gives me loads of pp. Don't quite understand that at all :/
usually when a score gives you nothing when it should you just have to set a new best score on any map for it to update.-Soba- wrote:
Why did remote control hdhr give me 0 pp but is really high on my best performances ?
Did your pp go down? Or just your rank while pp stayed the same?asior wrote:
I just dont get it. Always the same..
I play song 1st time, i failed 2-3 times, im.. lets say #2000 (B)
And my ranking increased for 50
I play song 2nd time on FC, im lets say #700 (C)
And my ranking DECREASED for 20..
Why does that happened ?
So pp can go down ? If yes; when ?scottyyy wrote:
Did your pp go down? Or just your rank while pp stayed the same?asior wrote:
I just dont get it. Always the same..
I play song 1st time, i failed 2-3 times, im.. lets say #2000 (B)
And my ranking increased for 50
I play song 2nd time on FC, im lets say #700 (C)
And my ranking DECREASED for 20..
Why does that happened ?
It's a limitation of the current system but it's not bad really. The system is still rewarding better scores over worse ones. Just because you value crappy acc FC over good acc non-FC doesn't mean the system is wrong. :pasior wrote:
Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...
Can't tell if serious on the first part, but the reason why maps like Scarlet Rose and Adult's Toy are weighted so low is because the ranking system cannot value patterns as of right now. Tom said that he would try to implement it later if he can.dennischan wrote:
People said that Scarlet Rose was the hardest map in existence (according to forums)
Why is it ranked so low in tp?
Is this map underrated?
Adult's toy is also seriously underrated. You can ask almost everyone and find that the consider Adult's Toy harder than say, some random high tp diff such as recommended spell (Spell)
I suggest maybe high bpm songs should rated higher.
The easy map won't give you anything because it's... easy? pp is completely based on map difficulty.asior wrote:
Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...
Go try it.asior wrote:
Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...
Tom94 wrote:
The easy map won't give you anything because it's... easy? pp is completely based on map difficulty.asior wrote:
Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...
Ekaru wrote:
Go try it.asior wrote:
Wow..
So play on easy, get better acc (but worst score) and gain more pp than play without mods but with fc and tragic acc. seems legit...
"Wow, I just wasted my time" in 3... 2...
the scarlet rose being the hardest map is a joke on the forums lol, it's not really that hard (only hard to fc, not to get high acc)dennischan wrote:
People said that Scarlet Rose was the hardest map in existence (according to forums)
Why is it ranked so low in tp?
Is this map underrated?
Adult's toy is also seriously underrated. You can ask almost everyone and find that the consider Adult's Toy harder than say, some random high tp diff such as recommended spell (Spell)
I suggest maybe high bpm songs should rated higher.
That mod makes most Insanes a lot harder to FC while killing your score modifier. >_>asior wrote:
I mean mod, not map type.
EZ mod gives you huge circles, which makes aim trivial and lowers the score you get from aim. It halves the OD, which makes accuracy trivial and lowers the score you get from accuracy. If you have a short stream, the lower OD will significantly reduce the speed required and lower the score you get from speed.asior wrote:
I mean mod, not map type.
Thanks for pointing that out. I'm pretty damn sure, that I already fixed this at some point - the website even shows the correct multiplier on the info page. Well, gotta fix it again.Ziggo wrote:
I found a mistake in the calculations in osutp and I'm wondering if it's the same for the current pp system. When adding the Half Time mod the speed gets multiplied by 0.75, so AR and OD times need to be multiplied by 4/3. The beatmap difficulty on osutp shows different values, though. E.g. ar10 with Half Time becomes ar8.5 instead of ar9 (for correct values check GhostFrog's post in https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/p/2858736). Same issue with OD. I don't know if even the aim and speed values are affected by this, but it might be a good idea to check it out.
It means if the song is difficult to aim or accuracy or requires a great deal of speed but not difficult in the other categories, then it'll give more pp.tastystew wrote:
wait what i just gained 190pp what happened
what does the recent change to pp actually mean?
" Performance: [Tom94] Increase pp-value of scores which excel in one category."
No-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
Just a few quick Yes/No questions (I didn't read the whole thread, so they may have been answered already)
1. Do you gain a different amount of PP depending on where you hit your 100s/50s (i.e. near the end/beginning)?
Sadly no. In the case that per-HitObject data is available this will change, but it's currently not possible.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
1.b. If no, are you still rewarded by highly weighted maps even if you perform poorly on the actual "highly weighted part", but play perfectly for the easier sections?
It doesn't count as a miss, but as a 100. However it indirectly reduces your gained pp by breaking your combo.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
2. Does a sliderbreak count as a miss? (i.e. would a 99% S with a sliderbreak be worth significantly more than a 99% A with a miss?)
Spinners are included as having to aim to the center and move a big. They are pretty much negligible. SpunOut multiplies the pp you gain from that particular score by 0.95.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
3. Are spinners included in the PP formula? Also, would Spun Out affect your PP gain?
If they have the same difficulty, then yes.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
4. On the osu!tp info page it mentioned that the speed value is affected by map length. Does this mean (in general) longer maps such as marathons will reward more PP than a shorter map?
It's planned, but for now all the "readability" that pp considers is ApproachRate.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
Suggestions:
1. Could readability also count towards map difficulty? Maps like http://osu.ppy.sh/s/7671 are known to be hard for being incredibly confusing (although I suppose people can just memorize everything, so the added value should be somewhere between hidden and flashlight).
AR below 8 and above 10 already give bonuses. The bonus below 8 is further amplified by Hidden.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
2. Although the vast majority would agree that a map with a higher AR is much harder and hence HR should be rewarded as such (also due to the increased values in OD, CS and Drain), most people I have spoken to would also agree that an AR lower than the recommended map AR is also much harder. Hence the order of difficulty would somewhere be along the lines of HR >>> EZ > No Mod.
My suggestion would be to keep the PP reduction for the lowered OD and Drain, but re-evaluate how AR and CS contribute to map difficulty.
Not getting a 300 on a slider is heavily penalized by the way sliders are "excluded" when speaking about accuracy. You're right, that it would make sense to give them some small value still, I'll think about how to properly add that into the equation.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
3. Another suggestion is to make sliders contribute to accuracy to... some extent. Although I agree it's a free 300 most of the time, getting a 300 should still reward something, and not getting a 300 should give some form of penalty. This map (http://osutp.net/scores?bid=66941) probably isn't the best example, but as of now the PP rewarded for HDDTHR is worth less than a No Mod SS on most 4~5 star maps.
Currently this is not possible due to technical limitations, but who knows what the future brings... I personally would love to see this.-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
4. One more suggestion is (if possible) to calculate the PP gained from a map based on the score which gives the most PP, and not simply the highest score. For most maps, a No Mod SS is worth significantly more PP than a 97% HD score, despite the latter having a higher score. In such cases, the No Mod SS should be considered as the player's "best play" rather than the HD score (only in terms of PP calculation). A score should only be overwritten if the new score rewards more PP.
You're welcome!-ArmoredTitan- wrote:
Thanks for reading!